Author Topic: Which Raven Model? (& Max Load Chart)  (Read 37023 times)

freddered

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2007, 05:21:27 PM »
The Raven Tour has 'heavier duty' tubing (ie. takes knocks a bit better) than the RST and longer rear stays to accomodate bigger panniers (and give slightly more relaxed handling).

The front fork crown of a Raven Tour is very I.K. Brunel and it can take the mother of all touring tyres (Schwalbe XRs x 2.2")

My mate fitted 2.0" XRs to his and it looks amazing, I have to be very careful not to blindly follow him down gravel roads on my 1.5" Panaracer HiRoads, it's unstoppable.
 

Fred A-M

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2007, 08:23:53 PM »
Hi Stuart, I pretty much agree with your assessment of the RST -  maybe unsealed roads would rank as 4 unloaded?
 

DomT

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2007, 10:37:16 PM »
I honestly thought that the Raven Tour and the Raven Nomad were basically the same (except for the fact that one has the S&S coupling)... so they are different... you learn something new everyday!
 

stutho

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2007, 10:38:13 PM »
Hi lewisnoble,

Freddered has pretty much covered everything I was going to say however it is worth noting that at you go through the range from the RST to Tour to Nomad the chain stay length get longer.  This will improve stability and decrease agility.  A short chain stay improves the climbing / sprinting ability so the RST 'In theory' will feel a lot more lively.

Unfortunately the trail (castor) length for the different model isn't listed, and neither is head angle, however I would guess that the trail length also increases as you move towards the Nomad.  This would also add to the stability.

Stability is most important when descending at speed on unsealed road.  When off road (on the rough stuff) where your speed is slower agility is far more important.  Therefore (unloaded) the RST should make a better mountain bike than a Nomad.  (The caveat in this is that other factors come into play as well such as bottom bracket high.)  


stutho

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2007, 11:06:00 PM »
Hi Fred A-M,

I think the RST is a great bike - I own one so it must be almost perfect!  However if I had to choose a bike for descending (loaded) on an unsealed road I would choose the Nomad as it should have greatest stability.  

I want the table to differentiate between the bikes, otherwise I would give the RST 5's in all the columns! Therefore the standard is very high.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 09:03:01 AM by stutho »

lewisnoble

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2007, 11:12:14 PM »
Very useful observations by all - thanks.  Anything that can be done to reduce misunderstandings by purchasers and others is to be welcomed.

Lewis
 

stutho

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2007, 09:38:32 AM »
OP Updated

Thanks for all the feed back so far.

superfinlay

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2007, 12:56:03 PM »
Your classification is very concrete Stutho whereas the Thorn bikes, as you know are very versatile.  I have a pair of rigid carbon forks on my Enduro; add a Y-Frame, and some Schwalbe Marathons into the equation and this bike can be transformed into as much of a rocky-road touring machine as any other.  You are close when you say that its general role is as a mountain bike, but perhaps more setup options and a scale indicating attributes for each may be even more informative to those who are new to cycling or lacking a bit of imagination.  Mountain Biking is a vague term these days; the Enduro is certainly not a Cross Country Racer (too heavy) and definitely not a downhill machine (I've tried), it's designed for Enduro events where reliability and comfort are of prime importance. If you must you could possibly class the Enduro as a Marathon Mountain Bike...but the Enduro can be a lot more than a Mountain Bike.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 12:57:54 PM by superfinlay »
 

stutho

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2007, 01:39:19 PM »
Hi Superfinlay,

Excellent post!   I agree 100% with what you are saying about versatility.  As a personal example I have taken my RST mounting biking a several times now.  Is it perfect - no but it does the job well enough that I don't get left behind by those with dedicated machines.  

I would love to set a table up with different option (especially forks, h bars and tyres) and suggest ratings for the lot.  However that is going to be a BIG table!  - maybe I will add a few extra rows sometime in the future.

quote:
Mountain Biking is a vague term these days

Too true, I will be honest, I know very little about any form of mountain bike racing.  I do, like I said earlier, get onto the hills now and again but that is about my limit. I am quite happy to change the 'general role' to that of Marathon Mountain biking.

I am going to add a line about versatility to the OP as well.

BIG Thanks for you post!

Stuart

Added:
I have changed the OP. In the end I changed the general use to Endurance Mountain biking as it made more sense to me.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2007, 05:07:43 PM by stutho »

bike_the_planet

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2007, 05:29:47 AM »
Can I ask where you obtained the luggage limits? Are they SJS' figures?

The reason I ask is that I would have thought that the luggage weight was also dependent on rider weight. The heavier the rider, the less margin for luggage.

For example I own a Nomad and an xTc (I'm afraid I'm still on derailleur bikes). Being a 97kg rider, even on my Nomad, I'm not sure what stresses 40kg would put on the frame and wheels.

Cheers
 

stutho

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 09:44:34 AM »
Hi B_t_p,

Firstly I would like to reiterate that this table is full of MY interpretation - anything that SJSC say supersedes the info here.

Having said that I have spent a reasonable amount of time arriving at these figures.  Many come directly from SJSC info - BUT NOT ALL.  Any figure that I am uncomfortable with is marked with a question mark.  

With regard to the max luggage on the Raven Nomad the figure is derived from a post that Andy Blance made (Thorn's Chief Designer).  I dislike paraphrasing but basically he said that the Raven Tour was good for 40Kg as long as you took it easy.  The Raven Nomad is meant to be a stronger than the Tour so I calculated 45kg.  I am still not entirely happy with this figure so it is marked with a question mark.  (Originally I had this figure also to 40kg  - I may at some point reduce it back)

All of these load figures are only a guide (even the figures from SJSC). Rider weight and far more importantly road conditions must be allowed for.    

I will add a line to the OP about this.

Thanks for your feedback.

Al Downie

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2007, 12:24:27 PM »
Hi,

I agree that this table is very helpful, and it'd be great if there was a single page on the Thorn website which showed photos of each model, along with key features and a copy of the table.

I have one question, and I'm sorry if it belongs in the 'Muppet' forum...

Like most prospective buyers I guess, I'm trying to decide what the most versatile model is for me, and I think I've narrowed down my choice to the S&S Nomad (with suspension fork) or the Catalyst. But I'm wondering what it is about the Catalyst frame that means it can't handle more than 20kg luggage on the road? Would it break, or is it just a feature of the geometry that the handling would be less than ideal?

I'm currently using a 25yr-old StumpJumper with the original, rigid forks*, which has been used in the past for off-road, fully-laden touring around the northwest of Scotland, with jubilee-clips and bits of coat-hanger wire holding the rack onto the frame (it has no braze-ons etc for a rack or mudguards). It was hard work, for sure, but I think that's because I'd packed FAR too much stuff on my first-ever tour - I don't recall the handling being outrageously poor, and the equipment easily withstood the battering.

* footnote - it's still in use every day for commuting, with the original frame & forks (bottom half has had about three coats of hammerite over the years!), but it's now a single-speed. Still has the rack with the bent coat-hanger attachments!
 

jawj

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2007, 04:10:16 PM »
Hi Al, and welcome aboard.

That's exactly the same debate I had with myself: Catalyst Vs Nomad!

The Catalyst has slightly shorter stays so wouldn't deal with burgeoning panniers/heel clearnace as well as the Nomad. Also, the Catalyst is made from (I believe...) a lighter gauge of tube which is very strong but more prone to denting and possibly bending. I have to admit I'm no expert, but get in touch with SJSC directly via email and they'll be VERY helpful. I'd be interested too, as I'm sure many people would, so post any results on here if it's useful.

My first proper tour was NW Scotland too! It was a loop from Inverness to Durness and back. Where was yours?

stutho

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2007, 04:12:42 PM »
Hi Al,

Welcome to the list.

quote:
what it is about the Catalyst frame that means it can't handle more than 20kg luggage
Strength may be an issue but geometry is the primary answer. The Catalyst uses a short chainstay (408mm).  This has two effects
  • If heavily loaded on the rear you will find that steering becomes overly twitchy.
  • Heal clearance may well be a problem when using larger panniers.
One of the largest problems with the table in the OP is that 'Off road' covers a VERY wide spectrum.  To some off road means a canal toe path, to others it means a badly rutted bridleway and to still others in means riding down something so rough and uneven that I would have 2nd thoughts about walking down!

I have no experience of fully loaded off road touring, so treat what I say next with caution.  

If I was looking for a bike to take full kit off-road then I would go for either the Raven Nomad or the Raven Tour.

If on the other hand I were looking for a bike that was excelled on the rough stuff (unloaded) that I might want to take touring one day in the future I would go for the Catalyst (with a bob trailer for tour).

As my grandfather used to say:
‘You pays your money, and you makes your choice’
– Don’t be too influenced by other peoples opinion. Research  and then make up you own mind. Don’t let others make it for you.

Al Downie

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Re: Which Raven Model?
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2007, 05:08:48 PM »
Hi Jawj & Stutho, and thanks very much for your advice. I'm surprised to hear that the Catalyst might be more fragile than the Nomad, but if it's true then I guess that's my decision made! I need something that I won't feel too precious about - something I can have complete confidence in. The Nomad with suspension does seem to be the emerging winner! And now I have exactly the same dilemma as Jawj *again*! I'm dead keen on the green, but I don't kow if I'm patient enough to wait...

My Scottish trip! That was great - my brother and I (students at the time) took the bikes on the train from Glasgow to John O'Groats (Georgemas Junction is as close as it goes), and our plan was to stay off-road on footpaths & rough tracks as colose to the coast as possible, all the way along the north coast and down the west, until we got back home to Glasgow. As I said earlier, we'd completely overloaded our bikes and were too optimistic with our estimates of daily mileage. For the first three or four days the weather was kind, we covered about 70 miles each day, and slept under the stars each night. Fantastic. Then it started to rain, and kept on raining, with strong headwinds, and over the course of the next few days our morale started to fade. We were covering shorter courses each day, putting the tent up in the rain at night, climbing into wet sleeping bags, then climbing back into wet clothes the next morning. Eeeeech! So we tried our luck in a couple of Youth Hostels, even though we hadn't budgeted for this expense), but they were fully booked! Bummer! At this stage we were in Achnasheen, it was still raining, and we held a board-meeting. We had enough money to get a train home, OR a night in a B&B followed by camping the rest of the way, regardless of weather. We decided to call it a day and catch the train. Disappointed, we rolled into the station and waited for the next train to come into the station.

A couple of hours later it arrived, and we wheeled our bikes up to the Guard's van, and he came out to meet us. "I'm sorry lads, but I'm only allowed to take two bikes now, and they're already on board", he said.
"Arse! Can we book places on the next train?"
"I'm afraid not.'
"Well, how long is it till the next train?"
"They're every four hours."

So we held another meeting, and decided to wait for four hours. But when that train rolled in, exactly the same thing happened! "I'm really sorry, but I've already got two bikes on board".

So we held another meeting, and waited for ANOTHER four hours on the platform. (There's not much action in Achnasheen). The next train was the last of the day, and our last hope - we were going to do the B&B/camping in the rain thing if we couldn't get the bikes on. Anyway - the train pulled into the station and we walked up to the guard's van. He came out. "Have ye got room for oor bikes mister?" I said, hopefully.
"Well, it depends. D'you want a receipt?"
"Er.. no, I don't think so. Why?"
"Right, gie's a fiver each and see if you can find room for them in here."
He opened up the sliding door, and there must have been about 30 bikes in there, all piled on top of one another!! Packed about as tightly as his pockets! However, we had comfy seats all the way home, in a hot, steamy carriage full of other soggy cyclists.

Seems like a great wee adventure now, but it was a bit grim at the time. There were some fantastic highlights though, and some important lessons learned. The most important was was taught by a French dude, who gave us a row for trying to cover too many miles each day. "No more than 20 miles a day, so you can speak to people! Otherwise, what's the point!!!" He was quite right too. He'd also booked his Youth Hostels & B&Bs in advance, AND was carrying only a spare shirt/shorts. I asked him about tools, because we'd packed a proper spares/repairs kit, and he said "I just lie down in the road, and hope the cars stop! They always 'ave tools."
« Last Edit: July 23, 2007, 05:09:37 PM by Al Downie »