Author Topic: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?  (Read 4808 times)

rualexander

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Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« on: October 20, 2016, 11:19:06 PM »
Saw this posted on the CTC forum, a new 14 speed hub gear from Norway.
I like the idea of the 'cage' allowing swapping of the hub between bikes etc.
Only 28 spoke version at the moment though.
And looks like being in the same price range as Rohloff.
http://www.kindernay.com/products

David Simpson

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 11:24:42 PM »
It appears to be so similar to the Rohloff that I wonder if they have licensed some of the patents.

- DaveS

mickeg

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 01:46:37 AM »
If Rohloff production started in 1998, the patents may have recently expired.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohloff

They offer a slightly greater range from lowest to highest gear than Rohloff.

I would rather use cable shifting, but I would be nervous about anything hydraulic on a touring bike.  I am sticking with cable brakes too.

Danneaux

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 01:52:11 AM »
Well found, Rual!

Like mickeg, I prefer Bowden cables to hydraulics for touring in the back-of-beyond. No worries about air bubbles affecting operation or crash damage causing leakage and quick, easy repairs.

Still, really nice to see what's out there, and I love the innovative "next-step" thinking. Lacing the wheel to a cage seems like a real game changer in the IGH world.

Best,

Dan.

John Saxby

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 02:51:49 AM »
And here I thought that Norway was all about ace cross-country skiers and advanced carbon-pricing policies...Cagey folk indeed. Love the cage idea, despite it feeding my unquenchable thirst for bad puns. Less keen on the trick hydraulic shifting -- too much scope for air & fluid leaks from wear and tear, as I've seen on the brake systems of my well-made & famously reliable German motorcycles.

rualexander

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 01:33:50 PM »
Maybe they will produce a cable actuated version too once they get going.
Some more photos here http://www.pinkbike.com/news/kindernay-XIV-internally-geared-hub-first-look.html
And here in an auto translated article http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.terrengsykkel.no%2FTelex%2FNytt-norsk-gir

macspud

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2016, 01:44:02 PM »
If Rohloff production started in 1998, the patents may have recently expired.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohloff

They offer a slightly greater range from lowest to highest gear than Rohloff.

I would rather use cable shifting, but I would be nervous about anything hydraulic on a touring bike.  I am sticking with cable brakes too.

I just learned something new, I'd always thought patents lasted 50 years (might have been confusing them with copyright?), anyway it would seem that Rohloff's patent has 20 years from 16th may 2007 so is still in force.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:47:49 PM by macspud »

Peter_K

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2016, 03:05:00 PM »
anyway it would seem that Rohloff's patent has 20 years from 16th may 2007 so is still in force.
Perhaps that is the reason they start delivering these hubs after that date.

martinf

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2016, 08:11:13 PM »
Kindernay say it is the lightest multi-speed gear hub available, quoted weight 1400 g for the hub, for a fair comparison add the 100 g for the Swap shell, giving 1500g.

So not much less than a bare Rohloff hub, quoted at 1545 g. Actuating mechanisms, shifters cables and small parts look to be about equivalent.

Slightly greater range than Rohloff, and looks slightly smaller.

One major potential advantage over Rohloff looks like the Swap shell. I can see that being useful for using one hub unit on different bikes, so long as you don't have to swap too often.

Big disadvantage over Rohloff is that it is new, so not yet proven for reliability and long-term customer support.

macspud

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2016, 01:18:25 AM »
anyway it would seem that Rohloff's patent has 20 years from 16th may 2007 so is still in force.
Perhaps that is the reason they start delivering these hubs after that date.

Peter_K,
Ah yes, I'd missed that important piece of info. They would appear to be waiting for the patents to expire rather than licensing them from Rohloff.
It is certainly an interesting addition to hub gears. I'd like to see how much deformation the SWAP flange goes through, what with all the torque applied to just the one side. Definately one to watch.
I wonder if Rohloff is planning anything to compete. I guess the easiest way to do so would be to start selling seperate/multiple hub shells to use on the same hub, but that would cause problems of it's own. Hopefully the competition will lead to more good things for the end users, being able to swap the hub through multiple wheels would definately be a big improvement, that being one big negative against the Speedhub.

And here in an auto translated article http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.terrengsykkel.no%2FTelex%2FNytt-norsk-gir

Thanks rualexander, an interesting article though at odds with the Kinderney site in regards to production, Kinderney site saying "developed in Norway, made in Europe" translated article saying "They will produce all in Norway".

Kindernay say it is the lightest multi-speed gear hub available, quoted weight 1400 g for the hub, for a fair comparison add the 100 g for the Swap shell, giving 1500g.

So not much less than a bare Rohloff hub, quoted at 1545 g. Actuating mechanisms, shifters cables and small parts look to be about equivalent.

Slightly greater range than Rohloff, and looks slightly smaller.

One major potential advantage over Rohloff looks like the Swap shell. I can see that being useful for using one hub unit on different bikes, so long as you don't have to swap too often.

Big disadvantage over Rohloff is that it is new, so not yet proven for reliability and long-term customer support.

martinf,
The weight seems to be a bit of a red herring as all together complete with shifter etc the Rohloff appears to be slightly lighter than the kinderney.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 01:59:33 AM by macspud »

martinf

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2016, 09:40:06 AM »
The weight seems to be a bit of a red herring as all together complete with shifter etc the Rohloff appears to be slightly lighter than the kinderney.
[/quote]

Yes. Even if the new hub was significantly lighter than the Rohloff, a few hundred grams difference in weight wouldn't matter to me on my large-wheel bikes.

I would have been interested in a light, efficient and reliable (and probably expensive) hub with 8 or more gears for use on my "touring" Brompton, on this the weight does matter to me, because I often carry the folded bike.

______________________________________

I use 5 different gear hubs:

Sturmey Archer 3-speed: light at about 970g (hub only), efficient, very reliable, very inexpensive, OK for some local use but not suitable for very hilly areas or long rides. On one of my visitor bikes and my wife's Brompton, she doesn't like the two lever gear change on the S5/2.

Sturmey Archer S5/2 5-speed from the early 1980's: slightly heavier than the 3-speed, slightly less efficient in the highest and lowest gears, reliable enough, very inexpensive (I have 3 in use and 2 spare). Despite the limited range and odd gear spacing, OK for me for long rides in moderately hilly areas so long as I don't have too much luggage. I use these hubs on my old 650B wheeled utility bike used for local shopping, survey work, etc. and on my two Bromptons, on the touring Brompton I have a double 13/19 rear sprocket to increase the gear range.

Shimano Nexus 7 : fairly heavy, seems noticeably less efficient than the S5/2 and Shimano 8, reliable so far, fairly inexpensive, similar gear range to the S5/2 but better gear spacing. This is now on one of my visitor bikes, used only for short local rides.

Shimano Nexus 8 Premium: fairly heavy, seems efficient, reliable so far, fairly inexpensive, enough gear range for all my local use, generally better gear spacing than the Sturmey 5. I think the Shimano 8 would be OK for me for loaded touring except in hilly areas. Shimano 8 is reputed to be less sensitive to cable adjustment than the Shimano 11. And the Shimano 8 is inexpensive enough to replace if it does break, so long as this doesn't happen too often. On my recent Thorn Raven Tour utility bike and my wife's large wheel bike.

Rohloff: About the same weight as the Shimano 8, seems as efficient, supposed to be very reliable, too expensive to risk on a local errand bike, closer gear spacing than the Shimano 8 is a plus on long rides, enough gear range for anything I do. As the Rohloff shifts at the hub, a cable adjustment issue can't damage it. On my Thorn Raven Tour tourer and my new Raven Sport Tour.

______________________________________

The Shimano 11 would have been a viable alternative to Rohloff for me, but I don't trust it's reliability. It appears to be very sensitive to cable adjustment.

The Sturmey Archer Sprinter 5-speed from the mid 1980's was also very sensitive to cable adjustment, and I broke one of these very quickly due to the cable going out of adjustment. I had had no problems with the old model, so bought some second-hand.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 09:46:54 AM by martinf »

Tiberius

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2016, 09:58:04 AM »
I like it.... ;D

I like it like I liked it when I first arrived at this web site after Googling 'Build an indestructible bike' and I started to read up on the Rohloff hub.....what a wallet emptier that became.... :o

That laced hub is a great idea....I really hope that it works and doesn't twist itself to bits.

Going against opinion here I really like the hydraulic shifter set up....or at least I like the idea of it. It sounds like a lever on each handle bar for up/down the gears....small press for one gear, bigger press for more. The part that connects to the hub looks quite similar to the Rohloff ex box hub connector....somebody somewhere WILL make one of those to fit the Rohloff. Time will tell if the hydraulic shifter is reliable, but I've personaly never had a problem with hydraulic systems. I will assume that it will be reliable before I know that it isn't....and not the other way round.

Neat !!..... :)

GamblerGORD649

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Re: Rohloff competitor hub from Norway?
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2016, 07:31:35 PM »
I suppose the inside gearing could be Ok. But the outside is 100% INSANELY STUPID.
The shifter is on the chainside in the road of a case??? WTH
ALL the power AND braking goes to 8 little bolts ?? LOL How many times could you actually undo them before the threads loosen ?? WHO the hell would bother with such shenanigans??
The cage will be a mud magnet, impossible to clean. Prolly squeak besides.

As for 2 diff hubs, I also have a SA 5w. I wish I had 2 IGH bikes, but not yet. So it takes a couple hours to switch the shifter with hose clamp mount and switch all the axel fittings and maybe kickstand parts. For me, this has been far more efficient than either my old deraillers or Rohloff. As far as 45 GI is good for of course, 10% hills is OK.  On one 123 mile ride with it, I was less tired than ever before. The reason is the middle direct gear at 72 GI, reaching max efficiency at 18/19 mph, where it belongs. This SA 5 has all my speed records, 44/45.8 mph several times on a hill not very long. I take exception to many saying they are good for SHORT rides, even Sheldon said so. Traitor pfffft. But unfortunately, the shifting key parts/ springs have been sticky and gone AWOL at times. Otherwise very little wear. My deraillers seldom worked, never mind well. That is why Rohloff is my ONLY choice for touring.


« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 03:44:08 PM by GamblerGORD649 »