Author Topic: Could someone with a current Camper Longflap please measure it for me?  (Read 1643 times)

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7163
  • reisen statt rasen
Hi All!

As you may recall, I am delighted with an older Carradice Camper Longflap a friend kindly gifted me and it is proving ideal for carrying my lightweight camping kit so I can extend my long day rides into overnight tours.

I've been out in my workshop, building prototypes for a new way to attach the bag to Brooks saddles I want to make sure my solution will fit both older bags and current models whose dimensions vary from mine. Being 'way over here in America's upper-left corner and so away from Carradice's center operations, it seems wise to check dimensions with my Forum colleagues before I cut more metal and make a possible mistake. Isn't it always better to measure twice and cut once to avoid embarrassing outcomes?  In emojis, it would be:   
:o ??? :P ::) :-[

Checking the dimensions of the older Camper Longflap I have, I get 35cm wide x 22.5cm high x 14cm deep when I measure the main compartment between the stitching (inside measurement). Mine has a little white plastic label riveted to the top, a leather patch below, and two side flaps that tie together with flat cotton straps to secure the contents.

Current Camper Longflaps are listed as 35cm wide x 24cm high x 23cm deep. Even at this measurement and adding the volume of side pockets, I can't come to the same 24l capacity as Carradice. The newer models have a metal label on a leather patch, a bit of webbing to clip a taillight to, a reflective patch, and a nylon sleeve with drawstring to secure the contents.

Please, could someone who owns a recent Camper Longflap measure the main compartment to see if it matches the current published dimensions? I need to confirm before proceeding further with my mounts.

Many thanks in advance,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:43:05 PM by Danneaux »

Bill C

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
width across top 34cm [side to side]  , 35cm if external
depth front to back along top seam 18cm,
 depth f to b at base is wider  at approx 22cm,
top to bottom from dowel to bottom is 23cm,
the skirt itself adds another 14cm to the height/storage
longflap unfurled 34cm

all approx,  being jammed full i reckon the sizes you quote are as near as dammit, mines empty at the moment
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 02:42:09 PM by Bill C »

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7163
  • reisen statt rasen
Thank you, Bill; I very much appreciate your efforts!

I just received a reply from Margaret at Carradice, who kindly replied to my query and tells me the bags do vary a little as they are all individually handcrafted.

I see I will need to build a little flexibility into my prototype mounts to accommodate some variations.  Surprisingly -- or maybe not -- I often have to do this when I make my own parts. I machine my parts and build frames to the same standards as I true my wheels (to within 0.1mm, about the thickness of a sheet of printer paper), and not every production part is made to those standards due to variations in setup, tool wear, and different production facilities.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 05:13:06 PM by Danneaux »

martinf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 424
Depends on the design of your saddlebag support, but bag dimensions might not matter all that much.

I have two (fairly old) Carradice saddlebags, one is a Camper long flap, the other a Nelson long flap.

There is quite a difference in capacity, but I can use the same support for both.

IanW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Hi Dan,

I know from your other thread that you are already aware of Carradice's quick release saddle bag clamp (cut-down Bagman QR):
http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=product&under=range&url=Bagman-Quick-Release-saddlebag-Clamp

But you may not be aware that the Bagman Quick Release Adaptor is available separately
1st item here: http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=accessories

This plastic attachment is designed to attach to most Carradice saddle bags using the included strong zip-ties through and round the woden dowel. It then provides a standardized width fitting into the Bagman QR claim.

Now I know you may not want to use the Bagman QR clamp itself, but as a standard width to work to it might help you
and you could perhaps even acquire a number of the quick release adaptors to fit your now standardized custom nade mount.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7163
  • reisen statt rasen
Martin, Ian,

Many thanks to you both for your thoughts.

I figured while I was designing a mount, it would be worthwhile to make it universal to fit my other bikes as well as a variety of bags in case I acquire another in the future. Martin's right about different bags fitting the same mount despite variations in size, and all seem to have identical spacing for the leather strap holes. Similarly, Brooks saddle loop placement is close-enough between saddle models to be considered "standard" within a certain margin.

I have some interesting challenges, because the bikes I will be fitting won't directly accept ready-made solutions.

For example, my Nomad uses a Thudbuster LT (Long Travel) sus-post that declines downward and rearward through its travel. My two randonneur bikes use Thudbuster ST (Short Travel) sus-posts that do the same, but to a much lesser degree. Two of these three bikes sport my adapter mount for Ortlieb underseat bags (see: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg86243#msg86243 ). The third bike has a strap-on underseat bag (for a multi-tool, patch kits, and spare tube) and just has the Brooks saddle loops available. My gravel-grinder/dirt road rando bike has a rigid seatpost and Brooks B.17 with just enough room for the Ortlieb bag mount, which I'd like to leave in place as I will use it more frequently on that bike compared to the Carradice, which will be used for on-the-fly camping and tours made with its limited capacity in mind (limited capacity compared to four panniers).

So.

What I'd like to do is employ a variation on Doneral's excellent earlier suggestion and make a sort of bimini clip to engage the saddle rails, but do so in a way that avoids some of the problems of commercial bimini clips (used in boating to secure canvas tops over bridges and cockpits, etc). Those come in limited sizes and variants are only available in aluminum, which can wear pretty quickly. I'd like stainless.

My first thought was to produce them from stainless sheet, but the bikes have different saddle-to-rack distances (I will use a rack to support the underside of my Carradice Camper Longflap) and this, coupled with different bag dimensions, means I would need to produce clips in a variety of lengths/drops.

I am probably stubborn in trying to accommodate a default mounting of the Ortlieb underseat bags (I have two Mediums and one Large), but they are truly waterproof so my tools don't get soaked/rusty, mount solidly, and get my most needed tools out of the panniers so I don't have to dig for them and they're readily available when I need them so I can be quickly on my way again if minor repairs or adjustments are needed. If I use the Carradice on one of my bikes, then I'll remove the Ortlieb and transfer the contents to one of the Carradice's pockets, probably in a small drysack so the package is still waterproof and the items remain all together.

Unfortunately, the Bagman needs about 5/8in of parallel saddle rails to attach. My Thudbuster-mounted saddle rails don't have that much room available, so that's why I needed to make the brackets so the Ortliebs could attach to the wider flared section of Brooks rails. On the other bikes, the Ortileb mount is in the same place the Bagman would need to go and I don't want to get out tools to make a swap for something that should be a fast operaton. I considered replacing the Bagman bolt with a q/r saddle bolt so one Bagman could be moved toollessly from bike to bike, but there is still the space issue.

Ian's ideas for the Bagman mount and mating plastic bracket are good ones, and the q/r feature is what I'm after. I'll give it some more thought. What I want to do is get the bag on and off each bike quickly if I need to go into a store, or take it into the tent to un/pack if it is raining. The difficulty is getting a mount that will work on any of these four bikes with the restrictions I'm up against.

It would not be difficult for me to make my own version of the Bagman and the plastic mount from aluminum billet, but clearances are the big issue. Of course, it would be faster and easier to buy a ready-made solution and I would prefer that if I can find the right combination.

Thanks for the suggestions; most welcome!

All the best,

Dan.

IanW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Hi Dan,

As I have no less than 2 Bagman QR clamps (one on the bike) I did a little more "visual thinking" (see attached photos).

And it occurs to me that although the Bagman QR clamp is intended to clamp onto the parallel saddle rails in the seat post clamping area,
it actually provides rather more claming options when a little more thought is given and perhaps a couple more parts are added.

If, like your custom Ortlieb under-seat bag mounting bracket, you could fashion a similar aluminium strip bracket
probably as a strip to stradle flared seat rails behind the saddle with a suitable notch in it and a couple of suitably located through-holes between the flared seat rails then I think the Bagman QR clamp could be accommodated at a downward and backward sloping angle
rather than its usual / intended horizontal disposition.

I appreciate that this then involves the expense of at least one, and probably more, Bagman QR clamps, which is certainly not a cheap option, but they really are a good quality quick-release solution.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7163
  • reisen statt rasen
Hi Ian!

Really superb effort on your part, complete with photos! Thanks.

Oh, dearie me, this has me thinking maybe I should have added a Bagman clamp to my SJSC order last evening, but at about USD$30 with direct cost and added shipping combined, I decided to pass because it looked too far off the mark.

Hmm. Yes, this has me thinking in a different direction. Please Ian, can you tell me the source of the bolt and sleeve nut you used through the saddle-rail clamp on the Bagman?

I'm also thinking of I made my own...Danman?...I might be able to attach it to the flared rails *above* my Ortlieb adapter and so have both on each bike. That would be nicest of all, and this has me thinking it might be possible. Thanks!

I'll give it some more thought before I start carving aluminum. The foundry is only a bit over 5km from my house, but they're closed today, so I want to be a bit more sure before I burn through my back-stock of billet here.

Hmm, further: The Carradice will sit on the rear rack of each bike, so the upper mount won't have to carry the full load....

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 11:24:03 PM by Danneaux »

IanW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Please Ian, can you tell me the source of the bolt and sleeve nut you used through the saddler-rail clamp on the Bagman?

These sleeve nuts are readily available over here in the UK.
They are often used as part of easily disassembly furniture (a.k.a. "knock-down" furniture)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.H0.Xsleeve+nut.TRS0&_nkw=sleeve+nut&_sacat=0

There are also similar compressible sleeve nuts also referred to via proprietary names like "rivnut" and "nutsert" that are approximately the same thing.

The ones pictured are in chromed steel but I have various of the above-mentioned sleeve nuts in "314 stainless" which are probably better for outside conditions.

IanW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Hmm, further: The Carradice will sit on the rear rack of each bike, so the upper mount won't have to carry the full load....

Yes, my Carradice Low-Saddle Long Flap also sits on top of my rack so the Bagman QR does not carry the entire load.
But, me being short-legged (hence the "Low Saddle" variant,) means that the saddle bag and side panniers are not useable at the same time.
Hence the desire for quickly exchangeable saddle bag and side panniers.
Saddlebag for day-trips, Panniers for shopping trips.

Danneaux

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7163
  • reisen statt rasen
Very helpful, Ian. Thanks!

Best,

Dan.