Author Topic: Creaking and dragging  (Read 5831 times)

ads677

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Creaking and dragging
« on: May 10, 2016, 01:07:19 pm »
Hi all

I have had my Raven for about 18 months, although due to a knee operation I have only recently started to ride it (bar about 50-100 miles pre-op).  A couple of worries have arisen and I was hoping you may have some solutions:

1. About halfway through a 30 mile ride on Sunday, and just after a short stop, every time any load was put on the pedals the bottom bracket seemed to creak.  This had not been apparent beforehand and the bike had simply been leaned against a wall without the pedals or cranks touching anything during the stop;

2. There seems to be a quite considerable drag from the Rohloff hub (and I think this was apparent from new).  Is this normal or should the bike have to go at least a certain mileage before the hub 'loosens up'?

Any advice greatly received.

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geocycle

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2016, 02:54:41 pm »
Lots of possibilities I am afraid.  Have you had the wheel out recently?  Might be worth checking you have not overtightened the skewer. Does the rohloff feel draggy in all gears? Is the noise from the BB from one side or both ie can you make it happen with both legs?

18 months standing might not have done the bike much good although a full recovery is likely!
 

mickeg

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2016, 02:55:16 pm »
Creaking, if you have a square taper crank check the crank arm bolts.  Those bolts are the only ones on the bike that I use a torque wrench, but if you do not have a torque wrench that is not a crisis, just make sure they are quite tight.  But if not square taper, I have no suggestions.

I have noticed that if one of the bottom bracket eccentric bolts is loose, I can feel looseness when I pedal but I have not noticed any creaking from that but you might want to check those bolts too.  The attached photo is of a rubber band that I use to keep my bottom bracket eccentric bolts from unthreading from vibration on my Nomad.

Can you be more clear on the drag?  If you are talking about when you coast, it feels like the crank wants to turn, that is normal and is reduced after a few thousand km.  If your chain is too tight, that could cause it to feel like it is dragging.

If these do not solve it, I have no other suggestions.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 02:57:03 pm by mickeg »

Andre Jute

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2016, 03:38:07 pm »
About the creaking:
It's likely to be the crank bolts but first check that the pedals are tightened to spec.

Tighten the crankbolt to spec. The correct way to do this job depends on which particular bottom bracket setup you have fitted. With square taper cranks, for instance, the longlasting way is to take the cranks off, grease the spindles, refit the cranks, and torque them to the bottom end of the spec, try them, and tighten progressively further until they are silent.

Since you didn't know this bit of basic bicycle lore, and have health problems, I venture a couple more tips.

Generally, for bike use, everywhere but around the bottom bracket and pedals, these day a 2-16Nm torque wrench will do; that's a very small one. A useful one is by BBB; I have a much older version of the same set, still in good nick after a couple of decades of use.
SJS sells something very similar at http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/m:part-torque-wrench-prod37956/ (I suspect that all these cycle kit small torque wrenches come from the same place; brand name and packaging determines price...) With all these small torque kits you have to add a couple of bits, usually 2 and 2.5mm hex and T20 for the Rolloff; my extra bits are the best, from Witte in Germany, because a stripped-out Rohloff part costs plenty!

Around the bottom bracket and pedals, the norm is the next torque wrench up, to at least up to 40Nm; for this I use an automotive Draper type from a common hardware store. I have several of these left over from my previous life as a hotrodder. The click stop ones with built in ratchets are superior for people with medical problems to the swing pointer types, but the latter are often cheaper and measure just as well (and sometimes better because they are such simple mechanism, difficult to go wrong).

If you buy only one torque wrench, stick to the smaller one. Torque settings are much more critical around the low end.

Be sure that you have read all the spec sheets and bumf and made a list of required torque setting (I keep mine in the actual torque wrench case) before you start shopping for a torque wrench.

Unless you're really rich, you don't need the fancy-smancie Gusta Forza.

***

The thing about health problems is that generally they may stop you from lifting the bike up on the stand, especially if it is set very high so you can work on the cranks without bending, and also they interfere with bending over the bike when it is standing on the ground. Furthermore, in that position you can't strain to get 30-35Nm on the crank bolts; pedals, if you want to torque them precisely via a hex in the end of the threaded end of the axle, can be very awkward too.

I solved the crank bolt/pedal bolt problem quite simply. Fold up you wife's rotary dryer and check that the pole is concreted-in firmly because it needs to stabilize you and the bike, with both your feet of the ground. If you can't find a suitable pole in your backyard, go out on the street, where you will find all kinds of solidly-concreted-in polses for signs and for lamps.

Put a piece of tubular slit foam such as your bike arrived in around the top tube. Lean the bike against the pole. Arrange the cranks so that the pole blocks one pedal at the top of its turn (turn the bike around if you need to) with the crank or pedal you want to mechanic on at the bottom -- yes, that's right, at the bottom. Set up the tool in the hex or on the nut; it will generally just hang there; if it falls out you need a helper. Stand on the lower pedal with one foot while holding on to the pole with both hands. Now put your  other foot on the tool and press progressively. Your legs are much stronger than your arms, even your back when you're bent over. When you hear the torque wrench click, the job is done. If you're using a swing pointer torque wrench, you need a helper to watch it. All of this is much quicker and easier to do than to describe. I once stood on the pavement in front of my bank and used the "No bicycles" sign's pole to brace the pedal while I adjusted the crank bolt tension. A police car stopped and a young policeman came over to me. "Can you show me that again, so I can show my dad? He's got a bad back."
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 03:53:26 pm by Andre Jute »

Andre Jute

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2016, 03:49:46 pm »
About the drag on your Rohloff, the box does feel heavier when coming from derailleurs, especially when new, but not hugely so.

Check that you didn't overtighten the wheel in the frame; use a torque wrench because very low tension is required. (Same appiies to dynohub front wheels.)

Check that your chain is looser than it would be in a derailleur setup: there should 10mm minimum movement up or down on the chain.

You should also give the gearbox an oil change. If you have a magnet, run the old oil over it and be amazed at the amount of metal that comes out of your box when it is new. After that it should run smoother.

2000 miles is often quoted for loosening up a Rohloff gearbox but mine was still getting smoother up to 3000 and there were further small increments up to 5000 miles. Again, we're not talking about massive drag but the slightly stiff feeling of best quality German agricultural machinery (the Rohloff was originally designed for mudpluggers, not as a refined touring gearbox...) when it is just setting out on lasting three generations.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 03:54:43 pm by Andre Jute »

John Saxby

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2016, 07:57:40 pm »
Beyond the suggestions above, ads, one thought about the creaking you hear:

I have had similar problems on my derailleur bike, though not on my Raven. I head a creak on the power strokes, esp on the right. I thought that the creak came from the bottom bracket.  Not so, as it turned out:  my seat post had become dry in the seat tube, and creaked when the frame flexed slightly on power strokes.  Regreasing the seat post solved the problem.

Since your Raven has been sitting for a while, it might be worth checking to see if the seat post has become dry; re-grease it if so.  Also, it's worth checking to see if there's any evidence of water or dust finding their way into the upper end of the seat tube.  Wrapping a turn or two of friction tape around the joint can reduce/prevent that problem from recurring in the future.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2016, 09:55:47 am »
Has the oil in the hub been changed? Even without use it needs to be changed once a year.

Ubert767

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2016, 08:04:58 pm »
Regarding the creaking noise, I had similar on my Nomad and after checking EBB bolts, pedal bearings etc, remedied the problem by removing, greasing and refitting the chainring / crank spider bolts.
The site below is quite  useful.
Good luck,
Rob
http://www.jimlangley.net/wrench/keepitquiet.html
« Last Edit: May 11, 2016, 08:19:14 pm by Ubert767 »

ads677

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2016, 10:06:22 am »
Thanks everyone, looks like my weekend has another few jobs to add to the list!  Fortunately I do have a low torque wrench.

I'll check out the links provide.

Is changing the oil straightforward?  I received some with the bike but haven't looked into this at all.

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geocycle

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2016, 10:28:30 am »


Is changing the oil straightforward?  I received some with the bike but haven't looked into this at all.

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Tiberius

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2016, 02:32:42 pm »
Is changing the oil straightforward?  I received some with the bike but haven't looked into this at all.


My hub is just coming up to a year old and so I've just done it's first oil change. Dead easy.... ;)

In fact the hardest part was paying the best part of twenty quid for a scratty little drop of oil..... :o  :o  :o

ignore me, i'm from Yorkshire...... ;D

mickeg

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2016, 11:13:22 pm »
I re-use the screw instead of using a new one.  And Dave from the shop reminded us some time back that you do not want dis-similar metal corrosion on that screw, thus the recommendation for Loctite on the screw.

ads677

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 08:02:45 am »
Woah - just seen the price of Loctite 511, circa £24, substantially more than the already expensive Rohloff oil change kit (£17) which includes a new grub screw!
 

mickeg

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Re: Creaking and dragging
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2016, 03:50:01 pm »
I am in USA where we often have different choices of stuff on the store shelves than in UK, but I have always found blue color Loctite (not sure what number it is) reasonably cheap.  I have also at times bought other thread-lock materials under other brand names, I always buy blue color and I only buy the kind that allows you to later remove the bolt according to the information on the packaging.

More at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread-locking_fluid