Author Topic: New Raven build -- advice sought  (Read 103073 times)

jags

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #105 on: December 22, 2015, 02:25:48 pm »
That's probably what i mean mick  thats a word i wouldn't be using to often. ;)

rualexander

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #106 on: December 22, 2015, 02:49:02 pm »
Now is it my eyes or what but those nipples look  onesides off centre,  should they not be straight?
remember Marc Beaumont had major problems with  spokes breaking because of this.just saying maybe my eyes are playing up. :o
Yes there looks to be a fairly big angle between some of the spokes and their nipples, but if the wheel was well built then this shouldn't really be a problem. That was not the reason for Mark Beaumont's spoke breakages.

John Saxby

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #107 on: December 22, 2015, 02:52:41 pm »
Sharp eyes, Anto -- I was dazzled by the gleam of the silver (dark & wet here these days, eh?), and didn't notice what you, mickeg and Rual picked up.

A few observations, as I have some history with Velocity rims:

>    The profile of the 2015 Cliffhangers is more rounded and flatter than the inverted V which the earlier Cliffhangers had -- mine were 2014 vintage.  My first reaction to Dave's 2015 rims was that they'd be better suited to using a Rohloff than were my older rims.

>     My Cliffhangers had a narrow innermost section, where the nipples exit the rim, and with standard drilling, the nipples were too perpendicular. (That section was fairly thick, as well--hence strong, but also allowed little play for the nipple to be angled as it went through the rim.) Hence, the spokes had to bend at the nipple in order to mate with the Rohloff. The 26" rims required more of a bend, hence more stress on the spokes.  (My LBS had made a hash of the original lacing of the spokes, which made the problem worse -- they later corrected their mistake, lacing my new Mavic rims free of charge.) I used my Cliffhangers for a season, maybe 3000 kms, with no spoke problems, but I could see breakages ahead, so changed to Mavic rims. Everything much straighter all around, although probably not 100% so, as one would have from a Rohloff-drilled rim such as the Andra.

>     The nipples & spokes on Dave's 2015 Cliffhangers seem to show some of the same characteristics of my original lacing on my 2014 Clifhangers, though not to the same degree.

>    Question/suggestion for Dave:  Do you use / could you perhaps use the Sapim "polyax" nipples, which allow the nipple to pivot slightly inside the rim, so as to get a better outward angle as they exit the rim?  Are the new Cliffhangers thinner in cross-section where they are drilled, to allow the nipples to be angled slightly?

Hope that's helpful -- good luck with these details, Dave.

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #108 on: December 22, 2015, 03:48:41 pm »
Thanks all for the observations.  I am not sure if what you are noticing is reality or a result of maybe a little camera distortion from the being so close to the wheels with the iPhone camera.  I will double check later this evening.  I had these built by The Wheel Department division of Velocity and they say they do a lot of OEM Rohloff builds for bike companies and sent along a pic of a line of Rohloff wheels at their shop ready to be dispatched.  They recommended the DT Swiss Competition spokes and DT brass nipples---at least that is what is shown on the invoice.  They also have Sapim spokes and nipples listed on their website so I assume this is their typical build recommendation.   They also have a very good wheel guarantee (which I hope I never have to use). 

Danneaux, I completely understand your comments and will mention that a Raven is certainly not out of the picture.  If I do end up with a non-Thorn bike, I will post links to it on my travel blog--not directly on this forum.

RU, the Terra works with both the int and ext gear mech...it was one of the first questions I asked.

John, thanks again as usual for your detailed response concerning your experience with the old model Cliffhangers.  I did take a look at a few of the spokes and nipples last night and didn't see much of a problem but I will inspect them more closely this evening.

Thanks all again for your help and Happy Holidays.

Dave

rualexander

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #109 on: December 22, 2015, 04:31:13 pm »
....RU, the Terra works with both the int and ext gear mech...it was one of the first questions I asked....
Yes, no doubt it will work with both versions, I just wondered if the cable guides on the frame are along the down tube rather than along the top tube then it might not be ideal for the internal mech version, I know it can be run with the exposed cable section parallel with the chainstay though.

jags

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #110 on: December 22, 2015, 05:43:50 pm »
Now is it my eyes or what but those nipples look  onesides off centre,  should they not be straight?
remember Marc Beaumont had major problems with  spokes breaking because of this.just saying maybe my eyes are playing up. :o
Yes there looks to be a fairly big angle between some of the spokes and their nipples, but if the wheel was well built then this shouldn't really be a problem. That was not the reason for Mark Beaumont's spoke breakages.
Rual what was the problem marks wheels  i watched his video a dozen times, full sure it was a thread   and nipple  issue.

rualexander

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #111 on: December 22, 2015, 06:04:12 pm »
Now is it my eyes or what but those nipples look  onesides off centre,  should they not be straight?
remember Marc Beaumont had major problems with  spokes breaking because of this.just saying maybe my eyes are playing up. :o
Yes there looks to be a fairly big angle between some of the spokes and their nipples, but if the wheel was well built then this shouldn't really be a problem. That was not the reason for Mark Beaumont's spoke breakages.
Rual what was the problem marks wheels  i watched his video a dozen times, full sure it was a thread   and nipple  issue.
Overtensioning was the main issue but also I think the spokes were slightly too short so were not fully engaged into the nipples, I also seem to remember something about the threads being cut rather than rolled onto the spokes but I might be wrong on that bit.
He got the wheels rebuilt in Poland with a much slacker tension and these held up for most of his trip, although he got a cracked rim in Australia too.

jags

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #112 on: December 22, 2015, 07:04:09 pm »
i messaged him on facebook  ;)
i shall report back.

Danneaux

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #113 on: December 22, 2015, 07:20:21 pm »
What a person does not want is shown by the red-x'd illustration below (source: http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax ), though it is even worse if the bend comes in the middle of the spoke threads.

Best,

Dan.

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #114 on: December 22, 2015, 08:18:08 pm »
....RU, the Terra works with both the int and ext gear mech...it was one of the first questions I asked....
Yes, no doubt it will work with both versions, I just wondered if the cable guides on the frame are along the down tube rather than along the top tube then it might not be ideal for the internal mech version, I know it can be run with the exposed cable section parallel with the chainstay though.

Rual--the cable guide screws below the left chainstay and not the left brake boss like on the Raven.  Dan, thanks for the illustration--though it scares me now to look at my new wheels.  I know that Comotion cycles in Portland, OR uses Velocity rims for the majority of their Rohloff builds.  Again, I'll check it out tonight







« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:49:52 pm by djd828 »

rualexander

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #115 on: December 22, 2015, 09:19:03 pm »
Yes I am familiar with that way of running the cables using the internal mech, it does make them a bit more exposed to gunk etc from the road and tyres though, compared to the way the Raven runs the cables along the top tube and down the seatstay via the brake boss.
You might have to re-orientate the axle plate on your hub as (as Dan pointed out to me elsewhere) at the moment it is oriented for use with the brake boss cable route. You can tell from the relationship between the reaction stub on the axle plate and the cables.

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #116 on: December 22, 2015, 10:17:23 pm »
Rual....I'm going to leave the axle plate alone for the time being because the Raven is still very much in the picture...working with the German dealers is a much more time consuming process than I anticipated and I would already have the Raven built if SJC had my size in stock. 

Now that we are upon the holiday season, many of the European bike manufacturers are closed for several weeks so I may just wait until the end of January for the Thorn.  I was never very good with patience...I have boxes full of parts and I, naturally, want to do something with them.  However, it looks like whatever route I go, I will still have to wait at least until early February to get a frame.

I guess I can roll the wheels down the street with a stick while I am waiting  ;)

Dave

John Saxby

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #117 on: December 22, 2015, 11:23:33 pm »
Dave, now that you have those spiffy silver wheels, maybe you can revisit once more your original preference for a red Raven  ;)

Slightly more seriously, good to hear that Velocity are confident in their recommendations on spokes, based on their experience with Rohloffs.

One detail about my older Cliffhangers: When we swapped them out, I looked at the offset of the spoke holes, and I found it to be very slight, each hole barely off-centre towards one side of the rim or the other. The holes in the Mavic rims have a more obvious offset (maybe more evident because of the eyelet?), not a lot, maybe .5 mm or so.  Without seeing the current Cliffhangers side by side with the older ones, I'd assumed that the flatter profile of the current rims would allow more offset in the drilling.

Further to Rual's comment about the placement of the internal-shifter cables:  I took my Raven for a wet/muddy ride in late November, and when I returned, my cables had barely any crud on them. The inside of both chainstays, and the lower run of the Chainglider, however, were filthy with encrusted grey mud. Mind you -- that's on a matte-black bike: probably wouldn't be so evident on a slick red 'un  :-)

Good luck with your on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand in the coming weeks,

John

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #118 on: December 23, 2015, 12:17:07 am »
John, you have a great memory and are a better mind reader. I have been looking at that red Raven on the SJC website every day.

djd828

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Re: New Raven build -- advice sought
« Reply #119 on: December 23, 2015, 02:07:10 pm »
Good morning--

I took a look at my new wheels last night and did see what, I believe, some of you were noticing.  It looks like an ever so slight bend at some of the nipple entry points.  I also found a photo on Cycle Monkey's site of the old style Cliffhangers that John used that shows this same issue.  I attached a photo and circled some of the areas that I think some of you were pointing out.  Cycle Monkey is the US distributor of Rohloff hubs and they also use a lot of Velocity rims...I believe that Velocity may also build some of the wheels for them.  I will say that I am a little concerned but not to the point of panic.  I also ordered several replacement spokes and I will get some spare Polyax nipples just in case.



Dave