Author Topic: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?  (Read 21274 times)

Danneaux

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 08:30:54 pm »
At 5'11" (71in) and 172lb, I am in there at 2.42(!).

I feel better and perform much better than when I was at 5'11" (71) and 155lb, or 2.18.

Surely muscle mass counts for something...especially the "muscle" mass in my belly?  :D

After being really sick once, I was 127lb and 1.78. Didn't work very well for me.

All the best,

Dan.

jags

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 10:03:57 pm »
Go on Dan tell them all what you can average on your fully loaded nomad i promise i wont spill the beans. ;)

anto

mickeg

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 10:08:09 pm »
...
One big advantage of derailleur systems is certainly the practicality of keeping multiple wheels to swap in and out. Lighter rims would be fun as well as lighter tires.
...

I have two sets of wheels for my 700c Long Haul Trucker.  One set is heavy Mavic A719 rim for touring, 37mm wide touring tires on it.  I bought the other set of wheels with lighter rims on an unbelievably clearance sale, I had some 28mm supple Continental tires on it that calipered at 25mm wide.  But my bike computer proved that the fast supple tires on that bike were not much quicker than the 37mm touring tires, on a 2 plus hour training ride I might get home 5 to maybe 8 minutes faster with the narrower tires that with the touring wheels.  But those skinny tires sure feel faster.

***

On the weight issue, looks like I should give up bike touring and stick to canoeing and sea kayaking.  Canoe and kayak, I generally find that I don't have to go up hills.

Danneaux

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2015, 12:15:57 am »
Quote
Go on Dan tell them all what you can average on your fully loaded nomad i promise i wont spill the beans.
Aww, Anto...I am reminded of a quote attributed to our past American president, Abraham Lincoln, who was very tall for his time. When asked by a reporter,  "Mr. Lincoln, how long do you think a man’s legs should be?" Lincoln replied,  "Long enough to reach the ground."

When asked, "How fast should my average speed be when touring with a load?", I reply, "Fast enough to reach your daily objective, but slow enough to do so enjoyably. Wind, weather, and terrain will make all the difference".

Much depends on whether one is figuring running average (i.e. average speed while riding) or average speed overall (including stops; some computers stop automatically after a lag, then restart when you do. Others...don't). Stopping to take a lot of photos can really kill a running average. In fact, stopping at all really affects running average. This is one reason why -- when I want to make time/distance -- I stay on the bike as much as possible, eating on the bike and drinking enough on the bike to reach a balance so I can minimize toilet stops. I've even become pretty good at donning and doffing articles of clothing while still atop the bike. I slow down, but even that is much kinder to my running average than a full stop. When I reach stop signs I do stop completely and even do a toe-dab to document it for any watching members of the constabulary - but I make it quick! I once received a ticket for doing a full-stop track-stand instead of a "proper stop", so I take care with this.

There have been days when I have toiled all day to make 26km (on eroded bedrock and fresh, deep gravel on very steep logging roads in Oregon's Bohemia Mining District in the Calapooya Mountains) and against stiff 13kph headwinds as I churned though 13cm deep sand atop Hungary's dike-top roads (a day's efforts resulted in about 48km of forward movement). Sometimes, there's back-tracking in unfamiliar areas or you find a bridge is out, so average speed is really speed made good (forward movement between a starting and end fix). On the other hand, I made 200km pretty easily riding from Slovakia to Croatia one day while fully loaded and could have done another 100 if I had been well-equipped for night riding and hadn't wanted to see the scenery.

At home and when in good riding condition, I seem to average 17-21mph/~27-34kph on an unladen touring bike in relatively wind-free conditions on level ground. It doesn't seem to matter much whether I am on my favorite 14.5kg rando bike or my 20kg Nomad (dry weights). When touring with a load in similar conditions, I find I average ~15.6mph/25kph.

Regardless of which bike I use, I find my loaded touring speed takes an initial hit compared to my unladen speed, but comes around pretty quickly. Once I've been on the road awhile, my touring speed comes very close to my unladen speed for the same conditions. Same thing when switching from the rando bike to the Nomad for unladen day rides. The Nomad tends to be slower for the same recorded distance because it so often tempts me to try rough byways, poor gravel, and logging roads, so my speeds are objectively less.

Biggest determinants for me are where I go and the conditions, which can vary wildly in the course of a 200-400km day ride. Eugene is located in the southern end of the Willamette Valley, with open, flat farmlands to the north and mountains on the other three sides. If I go north, then I try to make as much northward progress as possible before the prevailing winds pick up at about 10:30am; they can be pretty brisk, but the tailwinds on my return sort of make up for the headwinds going out. If I go  West, East, or South, then my speed depends on how many hills I encounter, how steep they are, and the road surface.

Sometimes, I have only a limited time for a tour, so I have to make a certain average if I am to cover the distance in the allotted time. Similarly, in my desert touring, I sometimes have to make a certain distance in a given time if I am to come out even on my water supplies. Then, I will push a bit, but mostly that just means more hours in the saddle and not a faster speed or higher average. It is not unusual for me to spend 17 hours in the saddle when touring in remote areas, with most of my rest breaks taken on the bike through changes in riding position, cadence, effort, or through coasting. This is where the many hand positions afforded by drop handlebars is a boon. My 400km day rides are usually completed within 24 hours including rest, food, and toilet breaks, but again it depends on terrain. My favored route has 53mi/85km of 5% upgrade, but the road surface is good, so it isn't too bad or slow. The longer I'm out the slower my running average, due partly to fatigue and partly to more off-bike stops.

And, sometimes, I just *like* to go slow, to savor the experience of being on a bicycle, or to enjoy the day, or see and appreciate things in more detail than when I go faster. There's much to be said for going slow, as well. I mostly no longer pedal downhill as I did when younger. Alone in remote areas, the risk:thrill ratio doesn't pencil out in my favor.

I've found wheel weight doesn't make much difference for me in steady-state riding once up to speed. Where I've found it really noticeable is when there is a lot of repeated acceleration -- commuting is one example, but also when starting and stopping repeatedly on really steep hills. It just takes a lot more effort for me to spin heavy wheels up to speed, and this takes a toll on my energy and average speed. Therefore, the Nomad is definitely slower in conditions where I stop/start frequently, due mainly to its greater wheel weight.

Mostly, I seem to go at familiar speeds/effort regardless of the bike. I think for me it is more a matter of being able to maintain my fast, light cadence in the same preferred gears than it is sheer speed. Also, I do get used to the scenery passing at a pretty consistent rate, so that may be why I fall into similar speed averages regardless of bike or load.

One more note: I usually run 2.0 Schawalbe Duremes on the Nomad, but have sometimes fitted the 1.5in Bontrager SR1 road slicks stolen from my tandem. This is a remarkably light and supple road slick for the money (cheap and cheerful; usually <USD$$22-25 each from Trek dealers). They feel faster and certainly accelerate more easily than the 2in Duremes on the same Rigida Andra Rims, but much of it is illusory. They are smaller in diameter, so I spin out of each gear earlier, and I must remember to reset my computer to compensate for the change in effective wheel diameter or I get the false impression I really am going faster(!) and have suddenly become SuperDan.  ;)

Thinking back to Huernie's original question, I think a Mercury will certainly *feel* faster than his Koga, and there is likely enough weight savings to result in an actual increase in speed, perhaps due as much to lighter wheels/tires as to less overall weight. I think the larger diameter of 700C road wheels better bridge potholes and roll a bit easier on rough roads, all things being equal. If it were me and I wished to spend about USD$50 on the experiment, I'd buy and mount a pair of 1.5-1.6in road slicks on the Koga and see if I could feel the difference. Do be aware, however, the narrower, lower-profile tires will require comparatively higher pressures than fatter tires, so the ride is destined to be somewhat harsher.

All the best,

Dan. (...would much prefer to slow down and chat with a riding partner than ride faster alone)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 06:16:57 am by Danneaux »

jags

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2015, 11:04:28 am »
great write up Dan i was right all along more miles make cycling easier ;)

lewis noble

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2015, 11:16:49 am »
I have found this a very reassuring thread - I'm not the only one who rarely exceeds a 10 mph average on a bike make as light as possible!!

My Sherpa is virtually identical to the Mega Brochure C2.  Weighs a little over 12kg including pedals, rack, ready to go.  My previous bike was a Ripio, a more MTB oriented frame / geometry, weighed 15.5kg.  The Sherpa, with lightweight wheels and tyres, feels 10 times more lively, especially as Dan refers to in traffic, and with frequent stops / starts for whatever reason.

I get up hills (quite a few 20%+ gradients around where I live) faster, in at least 1 higher gear than before, and the bike just feels better on a long plod up a hill.

Yes, I too sometimes feel aggrieved at the lycra clad bums disappearing ahead of me, but most of them are 30 - 40 years younger than me, or older ones who have cycled regularly all their lives.  I often catch them up when they are fixing their gears or a puncture.

I was expecting my average speed to be significantly higher, but in fact it is only around .5 mph / 1 mph max higher.  Downhill speed is much the same (governed by posture, and a caution derived from my career on a Spinal Injuries Unit - dealt with lots of cyclists . . . .).

The bike is very much more enjoyable to ride, and I am able to stay on the saddle longer, so I am very content. 

Important to be aware that if you do 'go light' (e.g. lightweight wheels, which as people say make a massive difference to the feel), load capacity and probably rim life will be compromised.  You just have to make a choice right for you.

Lewis - Sheffield
 

John Saxby

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2015, 03:33:12 pm »
Quote
The bike is very much more enjoyable to ride, and I am able to stay on the saddle longer, so I am very content.

Yep, that about nails it, Lewis. My Raven is a reasonable 14 kgs and change, unloaded but with rack & lights.  This past winter, I installed a set of quality middleweight rims (Mavic XM719s) to go with my 26 x 1.6 Marathon Supremes. This made some reduction in total weight from the previous Velocity Cliffhanger rims, but a lot of difference in the feel of the bike.  Both bike and its new wheels are capable of carrying a touring/camping load, if not an outback/expedition load.

This past summer, I found myself riding comfortably in the 10 - 13 mph range with a touring/camping load, depending of course on all the variables of wind & terrain.  Unloaded and in hilly country, I'm usually at the upper end of that range.  From what Mercury riders say, I'd guess that bike would feel nippier than my Raven, and maybe I'd be a little faster on it as well.  But, I wouldn't want to give up the Raven's touring/camping capability. Maybe in 10 years' time, I'll switch to the trick lightweight go-faster front forks?

Huernie

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2015, 06:25:00 pm »
Thanks all for the comments and advice. I am currently running 700x35 Schwalbe Kojak's so I don't think I can get any weight savings on the tyres. My wheels are proper heavy aka 'bombproof' (23000 miles with no repairs/servicing required and they have ridden some brutal roads). I could undoubtedly save there, but I am reluctant to replace quality wheels before they are done. Perhaps someone could donate a 'spare' Rohloff and SON hub for the cause? :D

Thinking more about the wheels I reckon that they are overkill for someone of my weight. Any suggestions for 'strong' light-weight 700c rims?

Cheers

Andy

jags

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2015, 06:45:38 pm »
i have  handbuilt wheels on my road bike  105 hubs dt swiss spokes (36)  mavic sups rims conti gator skins hardshell tyres  Class set of hoops.
 just use your heavy wheels for loaded touring.

Danneaux

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2015, 07:00:24 pm »
Quote
Any suggestions for 'strong' light-weight 700c rims?
Andy,

My favorite pair of all-'round lighter 700C randonneur and touring wheels are built on Phil Wood 126mm OLN freewheel hubs (rear), 36-hole 3x DT Swiss 15g spokes, and Mavic MA-2 rims. They have held up fine for touring with up to 25kg of load on logging roads and have rarely needed retruing (I just trued a 1mm wow out of the rear after being forced into a curb by a right-turning car at speed). For my 78kg weight and my bike's 14.5kg weight, they have held up fine, using 32mm road slicks at a reasonable 85psi/5.87bar.

The old MA-2 rims are 13.5mm between the beads and 20.3 outside the sidewalls and weigh about 473g. They are no longer made but similar rims are available. I would suggest a wider rim if you regularly use the wheels for touring, but for me it has been a good all-'rounder.

Perhaps something similar would work for your needs in 26in or 700C, depending on need and built with a cassette rear hub. Beyond component choice and application, I've found the key to long lasting true-running wheels is high, even spoke tension.

If you live in an area where roads are frequently gritty, you ride in the rain, brake a lot, *and* use rim brakes, then any rim will become lighter over time as it wear. Beware going too light to begin with, as the thinner sidewalls can compromise service life. See: https://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/05/09/rim-weight/ To counteract this, I use Kool-Stop Salmon brake pads, which are very rim-friendly and cause little wear compared to others on the market.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 07:23:10 pm by Danneaux »

martinf

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2015, 08:24:38 pm »
My lightweight tourer has Mavic Open Pro rims, these weigh 435 g, and are still available. I used 28 spokes front and rear, as I had a good quality "New Success" rear hub in 28H. Home built, with high spoke tension. Not too much dish on the rear wheel, as the rear hub was meant for 7/8 speed and I took spacers off the drive side to use it on my old frame with 120 mm rear spacing. I use old compact 6-speed freewheels, and a triple half-step setup on the front.

28 on the front is fine, perhaps not such a good idea on the rear, but it has been OK for me (about 80Kg) for 3,500 kms.

When I ride this bike I don't take much luggage (saddlebag, one or two 1 litre bottles in frame-mounted bottle cages). And I keep to proper roads rather than taking interesting "short cuts" on tracks and paths.

mickeg

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2015, 02:48:59 pm »
Lighter rims, fewer spokes, they do not make you much faster but they feel faster.  It is the supple light tires that actually make you faster.

Hubs

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2015, 03:37:45 pm »
I moved on from a Thorn ExP to a Mercury - similar size frame, but the Mercury both feels and measures measurably faster. Although all up weight is lower on the Mercury, the main difference in feel and speed is the 700X25c tyres, which kiss the road, rather than the ExP's high durability and  slow rolling 38mm's.
For the riding I do, they work fine!

Peejay

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2015, 12:22:41 pm »
Hi Everyone,
 
My experiences....

I have a Raven fitted with 26x1.75 Schwalbe Marathon Pluses and Andra rims. The bike rides well balanced and feels very safe and secure. Last year on my LeJog ride with front and rear panniers all loaded up the bike came in at 32.6 kgs. Over the 890 miles I averaged 10.6 mph. I also use the Raven as my everyday ride mainly for commuting, with just the rear panniers and all my bits and pieces for work etc the bike weighs around 20 kgs. My commute is 49 miles round trip which I ride three times per week and can average 13 mph.

I also own a Mercury - my "best bike". It has drops, Hope hydraulic disc brakes, DT Swiss rims with 700x32c Schwalbe Marathon Supreme's, the bike weighs 12.25 kgs. For sure the Mercury is a different animal when compared to the Raven; it rides superb, is very responsive with super quick handling. On my commute on the Mercury I can easily average 18 mph for the same effort as riding the Raven. I have embarrassed lots of carbon fibre weight weenies on the Mercury (and when they catch up) only to be asked - Wow what bike is that? I've never seen one of them before! Is it a single speed?

So to answer the original question - "Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?" - I would say "Yes"

But please bear in mind the cost - to build a Mercury is very expensive (my build would be around £3800). You could do lots to alter your bike and make it lighter for a fraction of the cost of a new Mercury.

That said - if you can afford it - go for it. In my opinion the Mercury is the best bike I have ever ridden.

Pete.

jags

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Re: Will a Mercury make a noticeable difference?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2015, 12:49:31 pm »
Say Pete any chance you could post a few photos of your mercury love to see your set up thanks.

jags.