Author Topic: Raven Step Through?  (Read 8179 times)

jzdparis

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Raven Step Through?
« on: October 13, 2015, 01:09:53 am »
As a newcomer and potential Thorn owner, I am enjoying browsing the huge range of topics ... virtually nothing on the ST though so I just wondered if there are any ST owners out there?  Obviously most of you are young/tall/athletic (choose all that fit) but I am 60+ short, female and looking for my last touring bike (early 1980s = Claude Butler 10,000km, followed by an Airnimal Chameleon (beautiful to ride but useless on anything but smooth roads e.g. great trip from Stockholm to London last year except when it came to some of the designated bike paths in the UK.)  Really looking forward to having a Rohloff.

My thinking is that advancing age is going to bring with it a certain loss of agility, esp as I am quite short (5" 2') and that a step through will be easier, as long as performance etc is not compromised.   Any comments/shared experience would be appreciated.

I am receiving some good advice from Thorn re set up, but again any comments would be appreciated.  Typical touring trip now  is ~ 6 weeks, light camping, rear panniers only (~7-8 kgs plus bar bag).  Mostly Europe but also NZ now that it is finally developing better cycle trails (which tend to be the equivalent, I think, of tow paths?) Also gravel roads but not horrendously rough stuff.)  Weight is an issue with air baggage limits.

Thank you!

Danneaux

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2015, 01:17:26 am »
Hi and welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum!

As I recall, Australian member Slammin' Sammy's wife has a (red) Thorn Raven ST frame named Honoria (his yellow Nomad Mk2 is called Attila). They are currently on a cycling vacation in the States, but might be able to provide more specifics soon.

You can use the Forum search function to look for Raven ST posts by Slammin Sammy. Here's one, with a lovely photo of Kavlyn's Honoria: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=8017.msg52725#msg52725

To search effectively with minimum fuss, take a look at my tutorial here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4390.0

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 01:24:06 am by Danneaux »

Andre Jute

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2015, 02:36:57 am »
Welcome JZD. A few years ago I put some thought into what I called gerribikes, i.e. bikes for geriatrics, on the assumption that I would not be young forever. After building some possible solutions, the first major principle I arrived at was low-step-through/over, same as you have. The second was surprising, to minimize unnecessary bending over the bike, which has a huge consequential trail of corollaries. The third, probably not applicable to a practiced cyclist like you (my guinea pigs were people in their sixties cycling for the first time, because the extreme case throws up necessary lessons faster), was to be able to put at least one foot on the ground while seated on the bike. I didn't even bother to test posture on the bike: I knew I would like to sit upright, in no kind of a racy posture.

Thorn usually manages to fit everyone, and we had some short ladies here who were notably well-fitted, so my tips are not about fitting but about outfitting your bike so that twenty years from now you will still be able to use it with pleasure.

The Rohloff is good. It has a huge range of gearing. I has low service requirements. It works well with the Hebie Chainglider, which further reduces service and adjustment events. You need to specify your chainring to be one of those for which Hebie has a Chainglider front end available which works with the Rohloff-specific Chainglider rear end. Off the top of my head, that's 38, 42 and 44 teeth. Your sprocket to work with these chainrings can be 15, 16 and 17 teeth, but there is an advantage in chain life and less service with the even-even choice of a 16T sprocket. (That one is also free with the Rohloff.) Furthermore, you need to specify a chainring that isn't too thick for the Chainglider; Thorn's own excellent chainring is too thick; a good choice is Surly's stainless steel chainring.

You'll already have your own ideas on tyres, but note that the Raven can take 55mm/2.15in Schwalbe Big Apples, low pressure balloons of great comfort and yet very low rolling resistance and superior speed. I'm a big fan of the Big Apples. Don't take the Marathon Plus as it's harsh, but other Marathon touring versions have fans here. Get the widest mudguards Thorn have in stock, P65s if they fit, because this leaves your tyre choice open to tailoring for specific types of riding/places to ride that maybe you cannot now foresee.

A useful lock that doesn't require bending over the bike is the n'lock, which is a high-quality Swiss stem that works like a car's steering lock. Last time I looked, Thorn had some base models in stock, but what you want is the adjustable model, with the facility to take the cable lock as well. There are two cables, one inside a handlebar, with a variety of bar shapes available, one a much longer loose cable with a loop at one end. I live in a low-crime area (where all the low-lifes know I react violently to being stolen from) so I just lock the steering column of my bike, without the cable, in any place where I can see it through a window. When I can't see it, I lock it to a rail or a lamppost or a street sign with the handlebar cable.  If there are suspicious characters around, I lock the rear wheel around a pole with the long cable to the n'lock. For going to the wicked, thieving city, and riding among carelessly driven Range Rovers, I have an Abus Granit-X U-lock clipped just under my seat where I can reach it instantly if a carelessly-driven Range-Rover comes within reach. It can also be used to fix the rear wheel and frame immovably to a lamppost or tree, though I rarely bother.

I don't need to tell someone who lives in Sweden to specify a hub dynamo and good front and rear lamps. The sporting Shimano hub dynamos are in my opinion as good as the SON (I have both) for almost all applications, but on a bike to see you out you may as well specify the SON. The BUMM Toplight Line Plus is currently considered the best generally available rear lamp and as a bonus it is, by BUMM standards, not too grossly overpriced for an ugly piece of plastic. BUMM's IQ lamps are held in high regard here; the CYO is especially valued for its light output. You should also have reflectors front and rear.

A Brooks leather saddle of course, unless you're bringing your own well-shaped one with you from your previous bike. People here like the Ergon grips which are an aesthetic mismatch to a Brooks saddle, but horses for courses. You can get Brooks leather grips to match a Brooks saddle. I use Brook's edge-on leather ring grips that match my saddle and they are superb.

You don't say what sort of pedals you use, but if you like old-fashioned rubber block pedals, SJS stocks the VP-191, which is a silken-smooth sealed bearing pedal; I have it on all my bikes. It is also pretty reasonably priced for such a long-lived pedal, it's only fault being that it is not very wide, which shouldn't bother you.

By the way, though I don't ride a Thorn (I'm an artist: a welded bike rubs me wrong from thirty paces away), I hang out here because Andy Blance, the Thorn designer, always knows all the best components, no boutique rubbish, and when what he chooses doesn't suit me, one of the posters will know.

lewis noble

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 10:20:59 am »
Hello . . . . As another older, not so tall, no longer so fit or agile Thorn user, I reckon you would be fine with the step-through.  The Sport Tour was never available with step-through, and are no longer being made anyway, but careful choice of wheels etc can make a Raven surprisingly lively and still more than strong enough for the sort of duties you are talking about.

As long as you are clear about what you want, I am sure that Thorn will help you get the best options.

Good luck!

Lewis

 

martinf

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2015, 09:02:57 pm »
I ride standard frames most of the time, but have a visitor bike with a "mixte" frame at our island flat. This has roughly similar geometry to the Raven ST, but is more flimsy with twin-laterals instead of normal-diameter tubes.

I use this bike fairly frequently, as does my wife who is small and slim. In the past I had a similar "mixte" frame bike, salvaged for free, which I used as a "hack" for urban abuse and leaving locked-up at stations, etc. I rode this bike for about 15 years and more than 35,000 kms before scrapping it due to cracks developing where the twin laterals were brazed to the frame. The Thorn step-throughs won't have this problem.

With my size and weight, on this style of frame I notice the flexing of the front end. This is a complete non-issue for my wife.

The Thorn step-through frames are built to be much stiffer than the "mixte" frames I have experience of, so probably wouldn't flex much even with my weight. The only downside I can see compared to a normal diamond frame is that step-through will weigh slightly more due to the extra tubes.

If considering the bike for long term use with advancing age, the stepover height of the current Thorn Raven ST remains fairly high. Stepover height was a problem for our Danish flat exchange partners a few years back, the lady had to rent a bike with a very low stepover height and, although he was about 6 foot 5", the man used our visitor bike instead of the big mountain bike I had prepared for him.

Thorn still have a few of their old model Raven Tour step-through frames that have a lower stepover height. These are probably slightly heavier than their current Raven ST but are only available in a very small size.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the slight weight penalty of the step-through frames. For a light rider I'd fit lightweight rims and fairly wide but light tyres, and, with the current Raven step-through, if never intending to carry front panniers, maybe choose the expensive 853 fork (more for greater hand comfort than the weight saving).

My wife's current bike is built with a salvaged, reasonably light "col de cygne" frame with low stepover height. I've ridden this for about 60 kms to test it after building the bike up. It flexes like the "mixte" frames, but once again, only with my weight, not an issue for my wife. Worked nicely on our recent holiday, where the 42 mm wide 650B tyres coped well with rides on unmetalled tracks, but a Thorn would of course be more solid and there would be a much greater choice of (lighter) quality tyres. Picture of wife's bike here :

« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 09:06:17 pm by martinf »

martinf

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 05:53:04 am »
The pros and cons of the old model Raven Tour 390 step-through as compared to the Raven Tour 420 step-through (very similar to the current model Raven step-through) are discussed on page 3 of the brochure in the link below :

http://web.archive.org/web/20061118113150/http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornRavenTourBroHiRes.pdf

Thorn don't recommend the Raven Tour 390 step-through for heavily loaded touring, but I reckon it would be fine for a light rider so long as the load on the front of the bike was kept to a minimum (no front panniers).

Slammin Sammy

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2015, 06:59:13 am »
Hello all!

Thanks Danneaux for providing the link to our "shakedown cruise" with Atilla and Honoria. My wife Kavlyn is still as pleased with her Raven 420ST as the day it was delivered.

After reading the post from jzdparis, I reconfirmed with her my wife's impression of her Raven: comfortable, stable and a joy to ride. She owns two other bikes, but the Thorn is her core essential. Her Trek 520 has gone almost unridden since Honoria came along, and her Brompton occupies a completely different role in her cycling life, creating cycling opportunities where none had existed before.

The specs of her bike have been posted elsewhere, so I won't repeat them here. While there is only one size frame, there are many other choices which together contribute  both to riding comfort and enjoyment.

Our recent ride along the Great Allegheny Passage with rental bikes has only reinforced our love for the Thorns, and we found ourselves wishing daily that we had brought them.

jzdparis

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2015, 09:11:25 am »
Thank you - some great info and lots of enthusiasm/reassurance here.  I am enjoying reading and following up on the different postings.

lewis noble

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2015, 08:12:10 pm »
I now realise that I had my acronyms muddled up!  ST refers to step-through, not Sport Tour, an earlier alternative to the Raven Tour . . . .

There's already been plenth of good advice reoptions . . . but I think it important to remember that even in its basic 'starting' price form, the ST would be an excellent bike that will give years of service and handle a wide variety of loads and situations.

I'm not sure what all the option choices are on the Raven - but I would certainly go with Thorn's recommendation regarding the hub upgrade . . .  and, depending on the sort of mileage likely to be covered, I would wonder about a CSS rim on the rear, which will last more or less indefinitely, and lighterweight wheel at the front??  Lighter wheels and tyres certainly make a big difference to the feel of a bike, and I think Andy Blance's arguements in favour of that are very sound.  I may well go for that on my Sherpa when I need new rims, though my DT Swiss rims show hardly any wear at present.

Good luck

Lewis
 

John Saxby

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2015, 08:24:44 pm »
On the issue of rims:  I've been very pleased with the Mavic XM719 rims on my Raven, and have no hesitation in recommending them.  Quality middleweight rims at 475 gms each, very well made, and strong.  SJSC sells these.

jzdparis

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 05:04:03 am »
Thanks, guys, your replies are appreciated -

#I enjoyed looking at 'Honoria" and her specs so thanks for pointing me in that direction, Dan, and for following through, Sammy(?).  Good to know that she is just right for her owner!  (and I love the red!)  How close a match are the reds of frame and hub?

# Re rims: thanks John and Lewis - yes, I wondered about having a mix of rims.  I have been looking more at the catalogue so hadn't really considered the Mavic rims but it is always so good to have recommendations.

# Thanks Martin for your ideas incl the archived material.  Interesting to note the price differences!  I am tending towards the 853 fork (I'm sort of at the stage where OMG it's so expensive what's another several hundred?!) but would like to be sure that it will cope with non-sealed stuff as well.  (Obviously no front panniers).  I know every permutation can't be covered in the catalogue but it would have been great to see one for light loads & rough roads... I guess a lot of sealed roads as well though

# Andre - a ton of ideas here - although it did make me feel really old!  I'm v. interested in the n'lock and have followed this thread on other pages as well as the manufacturers site.  It seems brilliant but I didn't see the weight anywhere.  Wondered just how well it has taken off, and whether it is the fact that it would be better on a new build rather than having to substitute components is a reason that there don't seem to be many Thorn owners using it (or that's my impression anyway).  I will never have had such an expensive bike so will need to be thinking more carefully about security.

Andre Jute

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 10:04:08 am »
I'm v. interested in the n'lock and have followed this thread on other pages as well as the manufacturers site.  It seems brilliant but I didn't see the weight anywhere.  Wondered just how well it has taken off, and whether it is the fact that it would be better on a new build rather than having to substitute components is a reason that there don't seem to be many Thorn owners using it (or that's my impression anyway).  I will never have had such an expensive bike so will need to be thinking more carefully about security.

Unless you're already an experienced and confident bike mechanic, get SJS or your local bike shop to fit the n'lock. You don't want to gain your experience on the steering of your bike. I'll take a proper mechanic fifteen minutes max to fit it but it could take someone who hasn't done it before and has no advice to hand two hours of frustration to luck into a halfway acceptable bearing tension. The downside is just too expensive (damage at the headset, a crash if the quill conversion set of the n'lock is incompetently fitted) to use this end of the bike for a learning experience.

I imagine the n'lock isn't even more popular here because it is expensive, and, being an OEM item, comes with zero instructions; actually, I'm amazed at how popular such an esoteric item has become even when you have to work out for yourself how it fits. But that's probably a function of the Thorns being pricey but not flashy bikes for people who buy stuff that will last. My n'lock weighed less than the German adjustable stem I replaced it with, though I can't now remember the actual weight. I was surprised that it was so relatively light.

lewis noble

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 11:56:52 am »
I am using the 853 fork on my Sherpa, v pleased with it. Will comment further when next on computer - too easy to make mistakes on this notsosmart phone . . . .
 

lewis noble

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2015, 04:56:27 pm »
Hello again . . . easier to write and review now I am on the 'proper' computer . . . .

I have the 853 forks on my Sherpa, very pleased, but yes, not cheap.  They are a bit lighter than the standard forks, and also very comfortable - I have had much less problem with my arthritic wrist joints than on any previous bike.  Partly a better posture perhaps? but also less jarring through the forks.

I would have thought gravel trails etc would be fine with that fork - the brochure comments that it is good on rough city streets, and I can confirm that - the roads in my home city of Sheffield are appalling, but no issues with the forks at all - and I reckon potholes and broken tarmac, and the urban cycle routes that pretend to be be cycle friendly in UK are harder on bikes than any gravel trails!!  I rode for 200 miles on a mixture of roads, including approx 100 miles of gravel trails, in France in the summer, fine.

Incidentally, on gravel trails the value of a Rohloff hub becomes more and more evident, with or without the Herbie chainglider - chain and component life will be just so much longer than on a derailleur.

Yes, you can use a bar bag with the 853 fork - I checked with Thorn first - though in fact I have not done so - not keen on them.  I seem to recall that I was told that up to 5KG was OK? check with Thorn

Looking again at your original post, I reckon the lightweight fork and lighter weight wheels would suit you well - but as I said earlier, the basic bike, in standard trim, is still an excellent machine. 

Lewis
 

jzdparis

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Re: Raven Step Through?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2016, 05:01:12 am »
Thank you - I am now the very happy owner of a Thorn Raven Step-Through, and have just had a very enjoyable 6 week trip in Norway (I have put a link to my blog in the trip section in case any one is planning something similar.)

I am extremely pleased with the bike - it didnt miss a beat the whole time I was riding, and I am also very happy with the set-up.  Loved the Rohloff!  Can't imagine going back to derailleurs!  I went with the lighter fork, 26x2" Marathon Dureme tyres, Flat Track bars and Ergon grips, plus Grizzly and Grizzly CSS Rims and Shimano XT V Brakes.  Oh, and a Brooks Cambium saddle which was comfortable from the get-go (well, for the first 70-80kms each day!). All in mart black.  Not a cheap exercise - pity I didn't buy it after Brexit instead of getting the VAT refund then!!  But it's a superb machine.  Special thanks to Steve Richards at SJS for his patience.