Author Topic: Seatposts and grease  (Read 9625 times)

David Simpson

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Seatposts and grease
« on: August 17, 2015, 08:24:45 pm »
In the latest version of Thorn's "Mega SOLO Brochure" (http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/THORN_MEGA_BROCHURE.pdf), there is a section entitled "How to look after your steel frame" on page 9. In that section, Andy Blance says:
Quote
Whether your frame is Steel, Alloy or Titanium, all Aluminium Alloy seat posts and shims should be removed, re-greased and replaced before and after every winter. (Or monsoon!) This will prevent the post from seizing into the seat tube.

I'd like some clarification on what he is saying. I can see the sense in applying grease between the seat-tube and the shim, to prevent water from getting into the seat-tube. Does grease here also allow the shim to move relative to the seat-tube as the clamp is tightened? (I am thinking that perhaps the shim might stick to the inside of the tube and prevent the tube diameter from decreasing as the clamp is tightened. Does it make a difference if the cut-out gap on the shim is on the opposite side from the gap on the tube?)

But what about between the shim and the seatpost? Wouldn't applying grease there cause the seatpost to slip down while you ride, unless the clamp was tightened to an excessive amount? Or is there a non-slippery grease that can be used?

So many questions.  :)  My little engineering mind likes to know how things works and why.

Thanks,
Dave




Danneaux

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2015, 09:04:23 pm »
Hi Dave!

I can't and won't speak for Andy Blance and Thorn, but as a cyclist with some experience servicing bikes, I'll take a stab at answering your questions.

I've had the unenviable task of removing seized seatposts from friends' bikes. It can be horrible, as the 'posts can cold-weld themselves to the seat tube and a variety of methods then have to be employed to remove the remains of the post without destroying the frame. For what it is worth, each of the seized posts had either been put in dry, or had not been greased for decades. The bikes used in a coastal climate had the most stubborn cold-welding to overcome.

I grease mine generously with Phil Wood Waterproof Grease and have had no problems in 35+ years. I do my quill stems, also, and remove the parts and renew the grease periodically.

For my Nomad and tandem, I grease between the seatpost and seat tube and both sides of the shim. I have not found the extra grease to cause the post to slip, so long as the gap between 'post and seat clamp/shim is within specs. A too-small 'post will slip greased or dry, and will require excessive tightening of the seat lug bolt, resulting in distortion of the clamp and ears.

As for greasing intervals, annually sounds like "safe" advice it would do no harm to heed. I've done mine every couple years and had no problems, but I don't live in a coastal climate, the bikes are stored inside except while touring (though mine also did fine with Phil grease when parked outside in rain all day while commuting), the roads are unsalted here, and I used mudguards (fenders) -- all of which likely extends the service interval for me. I also cover the saddle when it is wet, and the cover usually overlaps the seatpost/seat lug interface as well.

I've found greasing the shim does reduce friction and aids it in compressing onto the 'post as the seat clamp is tightened.

I reversed the shim in my Nomad so it blocked the forward-facing kerf in the extended portion of the seat tube below the clamp. I have since put it back for no particular reason. Generous amounts of grease have served to be an adequate barrier to water entry in normal use and with the shim reversed, I thought there might have been a bit of slippage -- not downward, but rotationally when the saddle was leaned against a tree or wall -- with the Thudbuster LT seatpost. It has some fairly aggressive rings milled into it as part of the machining process. These tend to reduce vertical movement, but do little to prevent or perhaps even aggravate rotational movement due to reduced surface area at the clamp. I'm still investigating. I do observe recommended/specified torque ratings on my bicycle fasteners and also on the seatpost clamp and I have not found the presence or absence of grease alone to be a factor in the post moving downward.

One observation on shims: It doesn' take much of a surface flaw to cause them to scratch a seatpost, greased or not. There was a tiny lip at the bottom of one edge of the kerf on my Nomad's shim that caused it to scratch the original post. I simply removed the shim, gave it a couple strokes with a half-round file in the offending area, and all has been well since. The same thing happened on my tandem stoker's sus-post, which also uses a shim. Check any new shim carefully with your finger before inserting a post for the first time.

Perhaps Dave Whittle or Andy himself can clarify further.

Best,

Dan.

mickeg

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2015, 09:12:10 pm »
The theory is that dis-similar metal corrosion can lock a seatpost into a frame permanently.  Grease is intended to prevent that, although you do need to make sure your seatpost bolt is tight enough.  Plus, as you note, it is intended to make water ingress less likely.

I carry a spare seatpost bolt in my bag of spares when I tour.  On a lot of bikes, the stem cap bolt could function as a seatpost bolt in an emergency.

More at this link:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/stuck-seatposts.html

David Simpson

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2015, 09:18:42 pm »
Thank-you to both of you for your replies.

What is an appropriate torque for a seatpost bolt?

- Dave

Danneaux

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2015, 09:46:38 pm »
Quote
What is an appropriate torque for a seatpost bolt?
Depends on the diameter of the bolt (5 or 6mm threaded portion) and whether dry or wet (wet torque ratings may be reduced by 4% to as much as 10%). When in doubt, look to see if the recommended torque rating is engraved or printed on a sticker on the seatpost of seat collar.

Typical ratings range from 4~6.8 Nm (36~60 in lbs) with the upper limit being maximum. Park Tools caution,
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Seat posts require only minimal tightening to not slip downward. Avoid overtightening
5-5.2Nm (46in-lb) seems to be the happy medium used by most.

Best,

Dan.

John Saxby

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2015, 10:38:11 pm »
Dave, I'm about to try to add to Dan's wisdom on the subject, but I will note some experience with a dry seat post:

A couple of years ago, I had an occasional and mystifying squeak/creak on my ti-frame Eclipse touring back, coming from somewhere back of the bars. I couldn't identify an obvious pattern, though it seemed to happen on the power stroke on hills, esp with the right pedal. (This meant I couldn't silently overtake riders on trick plastic bikes on a climb.)

My LBS eventually found it -- the titanium frame was flexing under power (such as it was...) and the dry seat post was squawking in protest.  A good coating of regular Exustar grease fixed the squeak, though I do hear a muted version now & again.

Never had the same problem on my Raven, though funnily enough, I find I can't silently overtake riders on trick plastic bikes on a climb.  I do wrap the seatpost/tube/clamp with a couple of turns of black electrical tape as a guard again moisture, after checking and lubing it each winter.

Thanks, mickeg, for your suggestion about carrying a spare seat-tube bolt.

David Simpson

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2015, 10:45:33 pm »
I find I can't silently overtake riders on trick plastic bikes on a climb.

Surprisingly, I can't do that on my Nomad either.  :)  But then, when I'm on my bike, I'm not in a hurry to "get there". I just enjoy the ride.

- Dave

mickeg

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2015, 03:45:19 am »
I use torque wrench on the square taper bottom bracket bolts, never use torque wrenches otherwise.  I have one seatpost that apparently is a bit undersized because that one often slips and I need more torque on the bolt.

I wrap a piece of electrical tape around the seatpost about 5mm above the clamp.  Then if I have any reason to remove the seatpost, I know exactly where to put it back.  And if it slipped, I can see immediately that it slipped because that gap disappeared.

On my Nomad, I do not worry about water ingress to the seatpost, I applied some Weigles frame saver to the frame before I assembled the bike.  And on the Nomad any water that gets in can easily escape around the bottom bracket eccentric.  On my Sherpa however any water that gets in will stay there, so that bike I worry more about water ingress.  After a very rainy tour, I took the seatpost out and could see that water had gotten in so I left the the seatpost out for several weeks so that it could air dry.

I enjoy passing people on the "plastic" bikes, but I must admit it is quite rare.

Donerol

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2015, 10:55:21 pm »
Shim???

I have a s/h Raven Tour which came without a shim.  However when I greased the post as I always do, I had trouble with it slipping. Eventually I cleaned off the grease where the bolt is, and roughened the post slightly at that point as it had become very smooth there, and since then it has stayed put. I have a feeling I'm over-torquing the bolt, though, and am terrified of breaking it. At the same time the post doesn't seem loose enough to have room for a shim.  Am I missing something?

I may need to lend it to a visiting family member in a couple of weeks and am reluctant to change the saddle height now that it is behaving itself.

ETA it is the Thorn own brand seat post.

rualexander

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2015, 12:15:08 am »
Shim???

I have a s/h Raven Tour which came without a shim.  However when I greased the post as I always do, I had trouble with it slipping. Eventually I cleaned off the grease where the bolt is, and roughened the post slightly at that point as it had become very smooth there, and since then it has stayed put. I have a feeling I'm over-torquing the bolt, though, and am terrified of breaking it. At the same time the post doesn't seem loose enough to have room for a shim.  Am I missing something?

I may need to lend it to a visiting family member in a couple of weeks and am reluctant to change the saddle height now that it is behaving itself.

ETA it is the Thorn own brand seat post.

Raven Tour doesn't use a shim for standard Thorn 27.2mm seatpost.

JimK

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2015, 02:49:36 am »
I worry about that seatpost clamp bolt myself! Initially the seatpost on my Nomad was slipping a bit. I started using a torque wrench so I could be a bit more precise about hunting for the sweet spot between slipping and stripping. So far 9 Nm seems to be working.

Mike Ayling

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2015, 08:19:16 am »
What type of grease do people use?

When we took delivery of our Thorn tandem it appeared at first sight that the seatposts were not greased.

I contacted Thorn who advised that they were using copper slip at that time - Dec 2012.

Has Thorn changed their opinion on copper slip and now use grease instead?

Mike

JimK

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2015, 02:46:14 pm »
I've been using: Permatex 09128 Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant

I didn't use any very rational procedure for selecting it though!

Donerol

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2015, 03:15:50 pm »
I used Waxoyl as there was a little rust in the seat tube. Also I put a dollop in the slot above and below the bolt, to try to stop water ingress.

mickeg

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Re: Seatposts and grease
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2015, 03:59:13 pm »
Shim???

I have a s/h Raven Tour which came without a shim.  However when I greased the post as I always do, I had trouble with it slipping. Eventually I cleaned off the grease where the bolt is, and roughened the post slightly at that point as it had become very smooth there, and since then it has stayed put. I have a feeling I'm over-torquing the bolt, though, and am terrified of breaking it. At the same time the post doesn't seem loose enough to have room for a shim.  Am I missing something?

I may need to lend it to a visiting family member in a couple of weeks and am reluctant to change the saddle height now that it is behaving itself.

ETA it is the Thorn own brand seat post.

Since the grease is for two purposes, (1) reduce chance of dissimilar metal corrosion and (2) prevent water from getting in the frame, on a Raven Tour you probably are unlikely to have a problem with this.  The Thorn seatpost is painted, that can reduce the chance for dissimilar metal corrosion the same way that grease does that.  And if any water gets in the seattube, it can drain out at the bottom bracket shell because the the eccentric in the shell is not sealed tight like a bottom bracket seals up the bottom of a typical frame.

If you are really worried about breaking the bolt, pull out the bolt and cut a slot for a screw driver on the end so if you snap it, you can unthread the remainder of it with a screwdriver.  Or, instead buy one slightly longer so the end sticks out enough to get a pliers onto the end if it snaps.  And carry a spare - or check to see if your stem cap bolt would function as a spare temporarily.

I have one seatpost that is a bit undersized.  I have considered putting another layer of paint on it to increase the diameter  slightly, I am sure only a tiny thickness would be enough.  But I have not done so yet so I can't say if this is really a good idea.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2015, 04:02:30 pm by mickeg »