Author Topic: Sinewave revolution + Son 28  (Read 5724 times)

mickeg

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2015, 08:35:36 PM »
Maybe the goal is to build a dynohub and an e-bike motor that are more than 100 percent efficient, then after you accelerate up to speed you could simply use perpetual motion to get you to your destination.

I can see those long distance off road high power driving lights getting mounted on randonneuring  bikes.

I hope that everyone understands that my statements above are intended to be humor.

If the new hubs had a built in rectifier and a capacitor to smooth out the voltage, you just need a lighter socket on your handlebar to insert your 12v to USB adapter into. 


Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2015, 10:55:08 PM »
 ;D Never hurts to dream,  mickeg!

All the best,

Dan. (...who admits the perpetual motion thing crossed his mind)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 11:47:05 PM by Danneaux »

John Saxby

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2015, 11:34:33 PM »
Quote
fleets of assisted bikes scooting along with ease as I work hard to keep up...

Lots of similar straws in the wind on my Amsterdam-Vienna ride a couple of years ago.  We could make up a cycling jersey for the diminishing band with "Ich bin ein Bittereinder" or some such on it, to be used for as long as we can  :-) 

Andre Jute

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2015, 12:46:40 AM »
I don't know why this 12V business has suddenly blown up. But none of it is new, or important.

Schmitt has had a 12V hub dynamo on the books for almost 15 years. Busch und Muller have had a 12V rim dynamo, complete with matching lamps, all of it good stuff, actually on the market since the last century. The reason Schmitt hasn't launched the 12V SON they have ready-designed is that they are so closely allied to BUMM that they are in a perfect position to know how well, or how badly, the BUMM 12v dynamo and lamps sold, in short because they know there is no market for 12V bicycle gear. Schmitt is too small to create a market and, anyway, BUMM, which is in a better position to create a market, and has on several occasions, has already failed.

It would be a careless management the size of Schmitt, even with their shining reputation, who with this history launches a 12V hub dynamo except at a very, very stiff premium to account for permanent low sales and thus small unit production to carry marketing, promotion, ancillary development (Schmitt would probably want their own lamp to go with it), service, laying in spares.

As for the 12V dynamo being intended for pedelecs or ebikes in general, to charge up what? Charging from bike dynamos has been one of the most unsatisfactory of all the broken promises of technology in cycling; it is not too strong to say it is an expensive joke. There is no charger operating off a hub dynamo that will recharge an iPad satisfactorily, period. It is logical to conclude that much larger pedelec and ebike batteries can't be charged by somebody pedaling along at some miniscule output, and I should imagine lipos will be wrecked in short order by fluctuating voltages.

In any event, most ebike batteries now have one or more USB outputs. And batteries get smaller and lighter for capacity every day, and more capable with every iteration: I don't even know how far my apparently small 8.8Ah battery will carry me because I've never run it further than 40km on one day. I don't even have a dynamo on my bike: I run BUMM's 36V IQ lighting (same optics as the Cyo) at the front and Linetech at the back; these lamps don't draw enough power to make any perceptible difference to the endurance of the battery.

There are a bunch of reasons why a 12V hub dynamo might have been desireable, and they're all to do with lamps, not recharging anything, and note the past tense of my statement. There was a time when 12V lamps would have given more light on the road in front of bicycles. That just isn't true since the rise and rise of the LEDs. The 12V dynamo has been too late now for 12 or 15 years, or possibly longer (after all, the good BUMM 12V tyre dynamo didn't sell either).

A 12V hub dynamo is a solution in search of a problem that has a good few years since passed it by.

Or, to put it another way, if Shimano were to launch a 12V hub dynamo, I'd still wait and see. Even Shimano has been know make mistakes.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:18:23 PM by Andre Jute »

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2015, 02:53:33 AM »
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Charging from bike dynamos has been one of the most unsatisfactory of all the broken promises of technology in cycling; it is not too strong to say it is an expensive joke. There is no charger operating off a hub dynamo that will recharge an iPad satisfactorily, period.
Andre,

I've had great success using a hub dynamo to charge my on-tour gadgets, and found it far from an expensive joke. It has in fact been both a convenience and a necessity for me, as it has resulted in being able to keep my gadgets charged for an extended period when away from mains power. By matching device demands to available power, my experience with bike-powered charging has been consistent, reliable, and trouble-free.

With my on-bike charging systems and a suitable buffer battery, I can and do power and/or charge...
AA and AAA batteries to power my LED headlamps, weather radio, GPS, a small electric toothbrush intended for travelers, and the batteries for my folding keyboard.
My GPS directly, thus preventing drain of the AA cells that power it and allowing me to track my progress over some 16+ hours of daily travel.
My electric shaver.
The accumulator batteries on my solar panels if there is rain or insufficient sunshine for solar charging.
My buffer battery when it is not being used as a buffer and -- depending on load -- sometimes simultaneously. The buffer battery overcomes the problem of interrupted power or charging during stops or periods of low speed.
My smartphone, which serves as telephone, email, SMS messager, web browser, electronic journal, e-book reader, backup GPS and compass, map source, Skype communicator, ftp uploader, video and still digital cameras, word processor, photo/video editor, and more. In turn, my bicycle-charged smartphone can and does power a solid state drive, a multi-Terrabyte hard drive, and a portable DVD player/burner.

I doubled my bicycle charging ability by equipping a trailer with a dynohub and charging system of its own. It will even charge overnight while I sleep if I invert the trailer and clip vanes to the spokes to catch the desert night winds and so spin the wheel to generate electricity as if I were riding.

Being able to do all this when away from mains charging power for an extended period has been a huge advance for my touring convenience and safety in remote areas, and something I have found I can can count on. It has saved me kilos in spare batteries that no longer have to be carried.

Bicycle charging systems are expensive, but I really hope people won't dismiss the idea of bicycle charging as impractical or a joke. I continue to recover part of my costs by using replaceable rechargeable batteries instead of disposables or embedded rechargeables that require the entire device be replaced when the battery will no longer accept a charge. I use my charging systems successfully every day I ride, easily and with no real fuss or bother. Once set up for my needs, the systems I have simply work so long as I continue to ride. I do also use solar power and accumulators to augment my power generation for days when I am immobile or slow and at night, but the bike systems work fine. It is terrific that a number of suitable dynamos and charging systems are now readily available to make this possible for anyone, so long as device demands are matched to the power available.

My success has been the result of carefully matching my gadgets to the available power source. An iPad won't charge directly, but I knew this and chose another device instead (my smartphone, which has proven to meet my needs fully). An iPad can be indirectly charged in part and its power extended through my buffer battery, which is bicycle-charged. There are other ways to charge or power an iPad indirectly by bicycle dynamo and charging system.


As for pedelecs/e-bikes using dynamos, I saw a number of them so equipped in Austria last summer. Powering lights and chargers with a dynohub minimizes parasitic drain on the battery for those actually *touring* with pedelecs/e-bikes, allowing more of the battery to be used for propulsion and longer range between charges. When I stopped and talked with several of the users, they were very clear it was common practice for touring longer distances with electric-assist and needing to maximize the battery's charge for propulsion to ensure they made it to the night's lodging for example, something very uncommonly employed when commuting. High drain devices were powered by the dynohub instead of running the battery down more quickly. Apparently, less energy was lost to increased drag than would be lost by powering gadgets directly. They said it didn't make a huge difference in battery live but made enough to be useful.

I have to politely disagree about the usefulness of dynohubs with higher output. Because the output is load-dependent, 6v systems commonly deliver increased output under increased load. One example is running two incandescent light sources in series, as long used in randonneuring; I've done so myself with great success for many long nighttime runs before LED lighting came on the scene. The cost comes in the form of higher resistance at higher speeds.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 03:11:24 AM by Danneaux »

mickeg

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2015, 03:43:51 PM »
Dan, that is a very long list of electrical devices.  What wind speed do you need to get a meaningful amount of amperage out of it when in the campsite?

My last tour was without my dynohub, thus I had to carry a lot more batteries than I usually prefer.  I had:

 - Camera, 5 Li Ion batteries for it.
 - 7 inch phablet, no SIM card in it, thus only used where I had wifi or when I wanted to look at maps I had previously downloaded.
 - vintage flip phone which usually was out of range, thus usually off, no spare battery, never bothered to charge it.
 - GPS, vintage back and white Garmin Vista, tiny black and white screen that stays on, minimal memory for maps, uses two AA batteries.
 - GPS, newer Garmin 62S with several different maps in memory, usually off because this GPS burns batteries faster with screen on than the older GPS but this one does routing so handy to have, uses two AA batteries.
 - Bike headlight, never used but if I did it used three AAA batteries.
 - Headlamp (for my head, not bike), three AAA batteries, never needed to recharge them after a month of use.
 - Tail lights on bike (two), two AAA batteries in each light, changed them about once a week, usually used light one but sometimes had both turned on if dark overcast.
 - Charger for my AA and AAA batteries.
 - USB charger.
 - Li Ion battery charger.
 - 3 into 1 outlet adapter.

I wish I had my dynohub along, but I used a 700c bike and my hub is on a 26 inch wheel.  Thus, I had to keep looking for outlets near empty seats in restaurants, places to charge at campgrounds, etc.  The weight of all my spare batteries and chargers was quite a hassle that I would have preferred to leave at home, would have been much better to have a dynohub along.

I did not plan on being in any campsites long enough during bright sunlight hours to make it worth it to bring a solar panel, in retrospect I made the right decision to leave it home.

My phablet is not one of the high amperage devices like Ipads, it charges at low amperage, my hub would charge it just fine.

Photo shows a charger for my AA and AAA batteries, USB charger for my phablet (phablet not in photo, only charger is), charger for the camera Li Ion batteries, this was all plugged into an outlet at an RV campsite near the hiker biker site I was in, my site did not have any way to charge batteries.  A very important piece of equipment on this trip was a three into one outlet adapter, allowing me to plug more things into an outlet.