Author Topic: Sinewave revolution + Son 28  (Read 5725 times)

j1of1

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Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« on: February 14, 2015, 11:10:39 PM »
I want to connect a Sinewave Revolution USB charger to my SON 28 which is currently powering my front light.  I see two options: 

1  I could piggyback the wires of the Sinewave Revolution onto connector where the light connects to the SON 28, but that leaves very little room between the fork and where the the connector attaches to the SON 28 on the hub.  Furthermore I think it would be a miserable task to try to change the front tire with a piggyback connector especially if with the front racks installed (never mind panniers being attached to the front racks!).   
2.  Another option is to cut the existing light's wire somewhere between where it currently connects to the SON 28 and where it goes into the light.  That would require some significant, but not impossible splicing work.  I'm a little hesitant to do that as means cutting my Edelux's wires that run from the connectors at the hub right into the light - and there is no margin for error as there is no extra wire between the hub and the light.

I'm hoping someone can share their experience attaching the Sinewave to the SON 28 that already has a light running from it. 

Thanks in advance.

Jan 

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2015, 11:39:19 PM »
Jan,

I would suggest using piggyback connectors at the hub to supply the Sinewave Revolution anf the headlight *and then* cutting off the leads for both the light and the charger near the hub, leaving short stubs several centimeters long and attaching connectors to both ends of the cut wires.

This way, the piggybacked spade connectors can be left attached to the SON dynamo terminals, and the wires can be "broken" easily when desired for a wheel change using the secondary connectors. I have been very pleased with my own setup arranged this way and it has proven to be unproblematic over time and with hard use in difficult conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, alkali dust). A variety of connectors can be used, but the hub connectors that can be so problematic to remove with cold or wet fingers can stay attached to the hub where they don't come in to play and are no longer a bother.

Best,

Dan.

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2015, 11:58:55 PM »
Mine is not the only way, simply *a* way to accomplish the task, Jan. If you would find photos and descriptions of my setup useful, I have them in both my Sherpa and Nomad galleries at the following links:

Danneaux's Sherpa:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg17113#msg17113

Danneaux's Nomad:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg38847#msg38847
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg38853#msg38853
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg39091#msg39091

Danneaux's Extrawheel trailer: (uses the same basic setup, shown in attached photo below)
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4953.msg41441#msg41441

While it is possible to feed the wire into the hub's connectors with a direct shot from above and following the fork blade, I chose to use a "drip loop"/strain relief approach and come in from below so water could not possibly enter the hub through the connectors, as some fora reports indicate may be possible. It also allows for a little extra length in case of a snag while underway.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 12:01:04 AM by Danneaux »

John Saxby

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2015, 02:46:54 AM »
Jan,

I use a Sinewave Revolution on my Raven, hooked up to SON 28 hub.  The hub also powers as Trelock headlight (40 lumens). (I use battery-powered tail lights.)

I have the same setup as Dan describes--indeed, I followed his scheme in wiring my own hub, Sinewave, and headlight.

Sinewave sell piggyback connectors which can be mounted on the tabs of the SON28 hub.  You'll need to add connectors to your wires for the Sinewave and your headlight. Again, the Sinewave comes complete with female spade connectors which mate with the male tabs on the hub. Following Dan's advice, I also cut the wiring for both Sinewave & headlight about 10 cms north of the hub, allowing for a drip loop to reduce the chance of water corroding the hub terminals. I used Dean's micro-plug connectors (2 pairs, one set for each wire), and relearned enough about soldering to solder the wires to the connectors. Because I was really a beginner, the job was a bit fiddly and the final product nowhere near as professional as Dan's.  But, with the connectors installed, changing the front wheel is much easier than it would be, if I had to remove the spade connectors from the piggyback connectors on the hub.

(I learned about the value of a drip loop the hard way, by the way. The magneto points on an ex-comp scrambler I had rebuilt had a breather tube attached. Water from a washing hose--not mine--found its way into the points because I had not installed a drip loop, with predictably awful results. An ace electrician in my neighbourhood rescued the situation, 'cos he had a reliable source for points on a 50-year-old competition magneto, but it cost me a bit...)

One could also install a break-with-connectors in the wiring near the fork crown, to allow removal of the fork assembly without removing the light and the Sinewave.  I chose not to do that, reckoning that the few times I'd have to remove the fork, it would be a quick and simple matter to unhook both the Sinewave & my headlight.

On the location of my Sinewave:  I have it on the lower side of the vertical bar on my Thorn accessory bar which holds the mounting bracket for my handlebar bag.  This makes the Sinewave very handy for charging items in my h/bar bag, and also shields the charger from the weather.  When it's not in use, I cover the USB port with a small strip of black electrician's tape, to keep out water or dust.

Can send/post some photos of my setup if you like -- please let me know.

Good luck,  John


j1of1

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Back to Dan re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2015, 09:56:15 PM »
Dan
   I'm envious of your ability to do such fine electrical work.  Your suggestion to have a short segment running from the SON 28 to a connector makes sense and I'll probably copy your work.   Maybe you can give me some suggestions on where I can get some BASIC connectors (the Dino connectors you use are great, but I don't think I could even consider do such fine soldering - I just don't have the equipment).  The multi-strand wire from the Sinewave Revolution is 24 AWG and I can only find connectors for up to 22 AWG and I don't know (because I have cut the wires yet) the AWG for the wires going to my light.  I'm open for suggestions...

Thanks Jan

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2015, 10:52:39 PM »
Hi Jan!

Thanks for the kind words.

I think the connectors you may be looking for are the gold Supernova connectors used by Julian (JulK) and Jim (JimK) to wire their bikes. The ends are not quite so small as the Dean's connectors and therefore easier and quicker to solder with many of the same advantages.

I did a quick custom search of the Forum archives for you and I think you'll find the needed references in text and photos below:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3402.msg15518#msg15518
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2490.msg12005#msg12005
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6221.msg37327#msg37327
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2521.msg18049#msg18049
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4016.msg18146#msg18146
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5263.msg44803#msg44803
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3035.msg27511#msg27511

All the best,

Dan.

John Saxby

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2015, 04:39:15 AM »
Jan, to follow Dan's references once more, Sinewave also sells the gold supernova connectors, so you could easily get a few of those when you buy the piggyback connectors for the hub terminals.

mickeg

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2015, 03:53:41 AM »
That drip loop may work great on a Son, but I think with some other hubs it might not.  I believe that the vent hole for the SP Dynamo hubs is under the axle, connecting the wires so they go downward out of the hub like you did on the SP might put the vent hole where more water could get into the hub.  This is a guess on my part, I have not seen any documentation of that hole being a vent hole, but I can't imagine any other purpose for it.  SP is clear in their documentation that the connector is supposed be on top, not below the axle.

I have no knowledge of how Shimano hubs are vented.

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 09:59:46 AM »
Quote
That drip loop may work great on a Son, but I think with some other hubs it might not.  I believe that the vent hole for the SP Dynamo hubs is under the axle, connecting the wires so they go downward out of the hub like you did on the SP might put the vent hole where more water could get into the hub.  This is a guess on my part, I have not seen any documentation of that hole being a vent hole, but I can't imagine any other purpose for it.  SP is clear in their documentation that the connector is supposed be on top, not below the axle.

I have no knowledge of how Shimano hubs are vented.
Hi Mickeg!

I became curious about that apparent vent hole in the SP dynamos and the orientation of the connector, so I wrote Shutter Precision and received a reply this evening.

Vic Chen of SP wrote saying their hubs use no barometric compensation and notes SON are the only dynamo maker to include this feature on a dynamo hub and notes other dynamo makers do not vent their hubs (This feature was incorporated into SON hubs in 2002. See: http://www.nabendynamo.de/wir/chronik_en.html It is a "feature", but I do not know if it is patented). He also noted Shimano has the biggest share of the current dynamo market, is also unvented, and no one complains about water entry on them.

Regarding connector orientation, he said the connector can point up or down and can be placed on either the left or right side. He further said the hub is marked with arrows to indicate rotation direction, and while it is okay for the hub to spin in either direction, efficiency is greatest in the direction of the arrows.

Connector "handedness" is very important with some SON units. North American distributor Peter White cautions...
Quote
Most versions of the SON28 and SON20 hub made between 2001 and 2011 must be aligned in the fork so that those connectors are on the right (chain) side of the bike. If you have an older SON28 hub with a black painted center section, SONXS, SONXS100, SON20R or SONdelux it makes no difference which way you align the hub in the fork. And with the new SON hubs from 2012 [SON28 Klassik = No, SON28 New = Yes], you again have the freedom to place the hub in either orientation. The connectors can be on either side of the bike.
I'm not sure about Shimano.

Further, Shimano and Sanyo dynohubs do also ground to the frame via the axle, while the SON axle is electrically isolated (the SL model is an exception...it is intended to connect to contacts placed on the dropout faces).

By the way, 12Volt/6.2Watt light systems (a new German standard) are coming. Schmidt (SON) have developed a 12Volt-SON which fits the new standard and at 70% is rated higher on efficiency than the 6v model. SON is waiting to start series production until after headlights meeting this standard become available. Once these hit the market, watch out, as the higher voltage and current will allow for a number of advances in lighting as well as charging.

All the best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 10:33:59 AM by Danneaux »

mickeg

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 02:54:56 PM »
Interesting.  Thanks for checking.  Maybe what I assumed was a vent hole is part of the way they assemble and disassemble the hub?

If I did not already have a hub, I would say that the new 12v standard is good news, but since I have a hub already that I will not replace, that news makes me more of a Luddite.  This is the first that I have heard of that.


John Saxby

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 03:10:44 PM »
Quote
Once these hit the market, watch out, as the higher voltage and current will allow for a number of advances in lighting as well as charging.

Ummm...like mickeg, I'll stick with what I've got, & just paid loadsa $$ [] for.  Reckon I'll compensate by adjusting my expectations--easier & cheaper, and can be finely calibrated.

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2015, 05:32:28 PM »
I'm too deeply (in)vested to change also. The standards are there, but the lamp makers have not yet caught up or don't see the present need to develop. SON are wise to have their dynamo all developed...but for now there's no market without the lights to match.

Still, it seems to be coming, and would open up a number of possibilities, including faster charging of high-draw gadgets.

It'll be interesting to see how the market develops -- and indeed *if* it does. At present, German lighting is determined by the StVZO/TA, the German rulebook for vehicles on the road, including bicycles. The last overhaul allowed the use of lower-output dynamos for powering more efficient LED lighting. I think this latest is an attempt to accommodate future developments. The present 6v/3w dynamo has a huge installed base and meets the needs of a majority of cyclists for worry-free, on-demand lighting, primarily for commuting. It has become even more practical now even the meanest LED lighting far exceeds the best incandescent lights of the past.

I have no way of knowing for sure, but I suspect these high-powered dynamos might initially be intended for use on pedelecs and e-bikes. The output in both voltage and amperage would allow the hubs to either replenish the on-board battery to a degree or minimize losses -- perhaps by allowing auto-switching of lighting from battery power at rest (as a standlight without capacitors) to dyno-powered while under way, allowing more of the battery to be used for propulsion, thus extending range. Or perhaps it would be used to power autoshifting stepper motors while allowing simultaneous lighting and full power and charging of gadgets.

My prediction: In five to ten more years -- if that long -- the electrically-assisted bike will become the norm in the marketplace rather than the exception. This has vast implications for a decline in fitness benefits, but I wouldn't be surprised to see even hardcore touring bikes equipped with a "boost" instead of low gearing for hill work. One of the most satisfying elements of cycling for me is seeing my physical effort directly translated into forward motion, allowing distances both faster and further than possible on foot in the same amount of time. I'm hanging onto my derailleur and Rohloff-geared bikes and building another Fixie. Should see me through for awhile.

All the best,

Dan.

David Simpson

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2015, 05:33:57 PM »
Interesting news about the 12V hubs. Like mickeg and John, I have a relatively new hub. I suppose the only option is to ride 100000+km in the next few months so that it wears out and I am forced to buy a fancy new hub.

- Dave

John Saxby

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2015, 07:25:12 PM »
Quote
This has vast implications for a decline in fitness benefits, but I wouldn't be surprised to see even hardcore touring bikes equipped with a "boost" instead of low gearing for hill work. One of the most satisfying elements of cycling for me is seeing my physical effort directly translated into forward motion...

I reckon you're right, Dan, in your reading of the growing market for e-assisted bikes, especially for urban transport. I've seen quite a few articles in the European press highlighted this in recent years.  Who'da thought it, eh? -- the decoupling of effort and reward becoming the norm rather than the exception.  The logic & allure of the market trumps most things, especially as the boomers their (our?) buying power ease into geezerhood.  During my trip to Prince Edward County last June--the County's economy flourishing in no small part because the area is a haven for retirees from places like Toronto--a mechanic in the bike shop in the small village where we stayed remarked that "cycling is the new golf." I thought he meant that the popularity curves of the two pastimes were crossing, with cycling ascendant; but maybe his subtext was the golfers' use of powered carts.

Danneaux

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Re: Sinewave revolution + Son 28
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2015, 07:39:42 PM »
John, it seems e-bikes appeal to 'Merkins who would otherwise never consider a bicycle in adulthood. Who knows? Perhaps the e-bike will trigger a revival in bicycle popularity in North America. I can just picture fleets of assisted bikes scooting along with ease as I work hard to keep up. I have to admit a number of dowagers in their mid-80s on e-bikes passed my loaded touring bike with ease in Austria. One of them directed a little good-natured teasing my way saying, "You can do better!" "<pant, pant, wheeeeeeeze> Try'n'!" was the best I could manage in reply at 29kph.


There doesn't appear to be much cause for immediate alarm for those of us heavily invested in a dynohub; our present systems should stick around for awhile longer.

I sieved the Interwebs with my data scrapers and found SON had developed their 12v hub as a prototype in 2001, now 14 years ago.

Despite the change in regulations, it hasn't made it to market yet. They're just ready a long ways ahead of time. Foresighted, those folks at SON: http://www.velovision.com/showStory.php?storynum=56 The StVZO/TA revision (67) that allows for 12v/6.2w output would apportion the juice so a headlight would use 5 watts, the taillight 1.2 watts.

And indeed, running two incandescent lights wired in series will cause the dynohub to dig a little deeper in response, producing double the output if you ride fast enough. An old randonneur/Audax trick, the second lamp is switched off for good lighting at low speeds. You can find Schmidt's [translated] take on this here: http://www.baldurdash.org/OtherStuff/www.nabendynamo.de/12vinfo.htm

Of course, two LED headlights can also be operated by a dynohub, but wired in parallel.

The StVZO/TA revision (67) that allows for 12v/6.2w output would apportion the juice so a headlight would use 5 watts, the taillight 1.2 watts.

Best,

Dan.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 07:49:09 PM by Danneaux »