Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: cycling4chapatis on April 07, 2013, 11:34:31 pm
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Hi there,
I've seen endless opinion on this topic, but can't find much actual experiences, so anyone out there who has used a suss fork (e.g. the Magura Menja option) on a Nomad on a longer& loaded trip?
For background, partner and myself cycled Kenya-South Africa last year on solid frame tourers with 42mm/~1.7'' Mondials. We tried about 150k's of off-tarmac and it was tough going (getting knocked around+vibration) and we hence stuck to tarmac after that. Now we're planning South America (6months+) and want bikes that we can take off-tarmac a lot more (with luggage, not for fast mountain-biking sans luggage).
I've seen plenty of comments of "deflate tyres and then actively get out of saddle and use arms, shoulders and legs as suspension". While that makes sense and as a strong guy might be ok for a while, a 50ish kg chick with 40kg+ of bike&luggage for days of off-road - that just sounds rough (she's a sturdy lady, but still!). Hence thinking of suspension fork, obviously with lock-out.
I understand that with suss-forks the luggage has to sit on the back, that's fine.
Want to go with V-brakes, so Magura Menja option it would be.
There's also plenty of opinion of "if suss-fork for touring go for one with a coil spring". Both offered options are the now more common air-only variant though.
Although the nomad brochure is hesitant (?) as far as suss forks go, ALL - ALL the photos of Andi&Fi touring are with suss forks (I understand their trips are a bit shorter), talking about mixed messages! Obviously stuff can break, but how hard is it to repair a blown fork (assuming it's just spares and not crash-victim of course).
So getting down to it:
- anyone toured for months on a suss-fork nomad?
- watched Magura maintenance videos, doesn't seem to be too bad. How often do you have to re-grease/ pump up/ etc? Only the "small" service with re-greasing or the full disassembly? With care just requires wiping down from dust and a little air from time to time or full-re-grease, etc. every 1000k??
- what extras would I have to carry vs. steel fork? (Pump, grease, oil, special tools, spares...?).
Many thanks already!!
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Hi and welcome to the Forum!
I'm afraid I have no firsthand sus-fork touring experience to offer you (someone will be along shortly, I'm sure. NZPeterG, perhaps?), but something you wrote did catch my eye...I understand that with suss-forks the luggage has to sit on the back, that's fine.
Actually, you can carry front panniers with a sus fork if you use a compatible rack. One option to do so is the Tubus Swing, here: http://www.tubus.com/product.php?xn=65 Another option might be to use a trailer. The Extrawheel maximizes ground clearance compared to sled-type/platform single-wheel trailers and might be a way to avoid putting the bulk of the load on the bicycle's rear rack.
Either of these approaches could open up some possibilities for a more balanced touring load, depending on your needs.
I notice you did mention trying the rough stuff on some 42mm Schwalbe Mondials. One possibility is to fit some wider (50mm/2in+) tires and run them at lower pressures for a mild suspension effect. This would prove most helpful for taking the edge off high-frequency, low-amplitude bumps, but wouldn't help as much for the really rough stuff, of course. For reference, I have taken my 26x2.0 Schwalbe Duremes on extremely rough logging roads with touring loads on both Sherpa and Nomad and found the 2.0 tires did help greatly compared to 700x32C or 70x38C tires on my other bikes, though I had to go slower than I would have with a sus fork.
A suspension seatpost or sprung saddle might be something to consider, even with a suspension fork.
You can search the Forum archives for more posts specifically on sus fork use and maintenance like this one: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=79.0
I have written a little tutorial on how to search most effectively and posted it here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4390.0 Try the terms "sus fork" and "suspension fork" (no quotes).
I hope this helps. It sounds as if you've already had some wonderful adventures, and I wish you well on your next one!
Best,
Dan.
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Hi
Well as Dan this said I'm running with Suspension Forks, V-Brakes, and sprung saddle!
Here it is :)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8513/8501958165_e757c43cd3_c.jpg)
I would have like to run with a pair of Magura Menja V-Brake forks but have not did any luck finding them? (have you?)
I'm running a pair of "Rock Shox Recon Silver TK 2012" forks 100mm, Coil Spring, V-Brake, I had to order them from the U.K.
Right how is it to ride a Thorn Mk2 with Suspension Forks?
Great, I have set it up for Mountain Biking cycle touring (and World Cycle Touring with STD forks) I have only find one down side with running Suspension Forks on my Nomad 8) and that is on sharp Switchback turns in Singletracks when Mountain Biking it's a little slow and hard work! with STD forks its great around the same switchbacks.
But with Suspension Forks on its Great (that great!) ;D on fast open down hills. Climbing hill is all good too. So all round My Thorn Nomad MK2 with Suspension Forks on is all good :)
I'm also running Mavic 819 UST rims, So that I can run them Tubeless with UST tyre! Why so I can run low tyre pressures (around 20psi) But for tours overseas (I'm in New Zealand) I think I would just run with tubes ???
If I was doing the same Cycle Tour as you I would try a Tubus Swing on front too, But I will not use a trailer again offroad or on Rock/dirt roads :o
Go for it, I love my "Tom" (name of my Nomad) it ride's like Mountain Bikes did back in the 1980's/90's Fun Fun Fun, I ride my one at speed on rocky open fast down hill's
Pete
:-*
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sorry if this is off topic but what is the front mudguard you have on your forks? & what are those caps on the mouth pice of your bottles?
Thanks
Ewan
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sorry if this is off topic but what is the front mudguard you have on your forks? & what are those caps on the mouth pice of your bottles?
Thanks
Ewan
Hi Ewan,
Good spotting about the bottle caps :o My Bottles are Camlbak PODIUM® BOTTLE 24OZ and I have an ACCESSORIES of Camlbak on the bottles call PODIUM® MUD CAP here is the link http://shop.camelbak.com/podiummudcap/d/1044_c_322 (http://shop.camelbak.com/podiummudcap/d/1044_c_322) it will only fit onto Camlbak Podium Bottles.
The front (and rear) mudguard are Topeck! and here is a link to the front one http://www.topeak.com/products/Fenders/defender_xc1 (http://www.topeak.com/products/Fenders/defender_xc1)
Pete
8)
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Cheers for the replies!
Somehow still not sure about some crucial parts.
To clarify: not keen on a trailer, I've read all the pros, but worry enough about bikes, never mind adding 50% more wheels.
Also read about the racks on forks business. I know it is possible, but equally see that attaching weight to the end of a spring (whether coil or air doesn't matter) puts strain on it when it does its thing (obviously the weight wouldn't affect sag being attached to the outside). So would prefer to go with only handlebar bag and bottle cages at the front.
Coming to the fork again: so the current Nomad brochure has the Magura Menja as the V-brake compatible option.
I gather from various Thorn brochures that Andi&Fi's sus fork equipped bikes get used in trips up to couple of months I take it?
What is the (roughly) service interval on forks? (I'm of the obsessively caring cycle mechanic kind that is happy to clean/ lube/ adjust to ward off evil spirits). What do people typically end up doing with a fork on tour? Nothing? Grease/ oil every 1000ks? 10,000ks? Pump it up once in a while? Can someone actually tell me what can so horribly go wrong with a air sus fork rather than a coil one? Assuming no impact (a steel fork wouldn't take kindly to be run over by a truck either), what can really go wrong that can't be fixed with some carried along spares?
For illustration, before Africa I read myself silly on the 700c/ 26" debate. We already had 700c bikes, whatya gonna do? Had some 36spoke, thick as spoke wheels handbuilt (nothing wild 150Euro for a set, hub, rim, spokes that is) and off we went. Carried about 10 spare spokes each in the seat-tube - they are still in there 6000k's later. What put my stressing to rest was a comment I read that people go on world tours with motor-bikes and 4x4s with a lot more finicky, expensive, specialised bits and they don't go ape about - oh-my-good-I-need-to-be-able-to-repair-my-bike-after-godzilla-chewed-it-with-less-good-looks-than-McGiver.
Someone, somewhere, needs to have done 10,000ks on tour, with luggage, with a sus fork - where are you???
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Hi! I have been through the search too for suspension options for my Raven Tour. I can hear the frustration at not having some first hand long distance feedback on sus fork use! I am sure some intrepid member will show up!
Sorry I will not be able to add that experience. However I can point you in the direction of someone who has and add a few snippets. Elsewhere on the forum sus forks have been discussed so hunt around (see Dan's links).
The Magura Menja is a superb fork, not that I have one but I do have the Magura Odur fork which is exactly the same construction but with a coil spring. You will not go wrong with a Magura (solid double arch construction, made in Germany and of excellent quality). If you can I would try and find the Magura Odur. That way you only need to carry a spare spring, and even then that is not strictly necessary (if the spring goes (unlikely), you just stick in a bit of wood dowel or a stick in the fork until you can get the spring replaced). For maintenance of the spring - a bit of grease now and then.
The Magura Menja gets great reviews too and spares would include some seals and a way of re-pressurising the fork. More complicated hence I searched for ages for the Odur spring version. I managed to get hold of a new 85mm version Odur from a shop in Estonia! Keep Googling/eBaying and you may find one. It does not matter if its a 2007 model - all good.
The 'someone who has' experience with the Magura Odur is Tom Allen on his rides across Mongolia. Great viewing ...
http://vimeo.com/18567650 (http://vimeo.com/18567650)
He uses an extrawheel trailer. Personally I would not use a trailer, but add a suspension compatible rack on the front as Dan has suggested. The videos are great at showing the extrawheel trailer and Magura Odur fork in action. I don't think he serviced the sus fork at all on his trip!
His site has some more detail on the fork and alternatives ...
http://tomsbiketrip.com/how-to-build-the-perfect-expedition-bike-part-1/ (http://tomsbiketrip.com/how-to-build-the-perfect-expedition-bike-part-1/)
And his review ...
http://tomsbiketrip.com/magura-odur-100mm-front-suspension-touring-fork-review/ (http://tomsbiketrip.com/magura-odur-100mm-front-suspension-touring-fork-review/)
I would also go for a suspension seat post such as the Thudbuster ...
http://www.thudbuster.com/ (http://www.thudbuster.com/)
or SR Suntour NCX ...
http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/dstore/products/Seatposts/3045/NCX/SP8-NCX.html (http://www.srsuntour-cycling.com/dstore/products/Seatposts/3045/NCX/SP8-NCX.html)
Now where is that actual Thorn owner who has done the miles with a sus fork? ???
(PS: Love the DeFender mudguards Pete!)
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Hi All,to tour with Suspension Forks.
Right 1st off I have only cycled 1500km's so far on my Nomad (Tom) But I have 10's of 1000's of Km's with Suspension Forks on Mountain Bikes all over the world, most racing hard in mud and dirt!
Air forks are great and light! I Love them and would have a pair on my "Tom" for weekend Mountain Biking! But have not find any good one's with V-Brake mounts.
Air Spring Forks to tour with them is all OK but you need to take a Shock Pump (a tyre pump will Not work), and maybe a full rebuild kit (with oil to lube air piston seal), Plus you need to check your forks air pressure weekly.
Coil Spring Forks with Coil spring forks all you have to do is just ride them week in week out. You can take a set of fork seals if you like? But if they start to leak you can just keep riding (wash the oil off from time to time). inside the forks you have (in most) oil in a sealed damper unit, if it leaks it just leaks into the inside of your forks and the damping stops working you can keep in riding all the way home (it will be a pogo :o).
Most forks today have a little oil in each side of the fork to lube the inside (and spring) if your fork seals start leaking it's this oil that you see coming out, you can keep riding still the insides will dry out a little and you may wear the inside of you forks out (bush's which can be replaced once your home) but to keep your forks working good all you need to do is clean them (weekly is good)
With Air Forks you can have the air piston seal blow :( and that is it! game over unless you are good at pulling forks apart, clean, and rebuild with new seals and oil's (there is a oil just to lube the air piston).
Service your forks? once a year or about every 5000km's this is pull them apart, clean, change oil's, check oil seals.
I hope this is a help to you all, I once pulled Fox Forks apart and custom tune them to the rider! charging part's inside from STD set. It was good money but I was missing my riding time so stopped.
Plus I have over 25 plus years as a Motorcycle Engineer working on Dirt and Motocross bikes.
Pete
:-)
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I forgot about wheel size and wheel builds?
1st wheel size? I have had 26", 29" and 700c wheels on loads of bikes over the years!
I also read up about which size to run with for my cycle ride down Africa last year, and ended up running 700c X 42mm tyres? But once in Africa find that very few places had 700c tyres or tubes (after being ill I Sold off my spare Tube's @ $10 US each :P ).
(my 12,000km ride was cut short too only 2000km's after getting a little ill :-\ read my Blog about it)
So when I started planning for a return Solo Tour I charged to running 26" wheels as most places had 26" tyres and tubes.
Spokes? and number of Spokes?
With having 26" wheel's 32 spokes are all that is needed (a well build pair of 32H wheels is very Strong), the main thing is the have your wheels build with only the best spokes! (like DT Swiss or Sapim) and only use DB spokes (Double butted) (they are far stronger than straight gauge)
How do I know all this well I get My wheels Build by one of the Best Wheel Build's in New Zealand! Here is a link to my wheelset 8) http://kiwipetescyclingsafari.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/wheels-build.html (http://kiwipetescyclingsafari.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/wheels-build.html)
I hope this helps :)
Pete
:o
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A few more things
I would also go for a suspension seat post such as the Thudbuster ...
A thudbuster seat post is very good but so is a Brooks
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8236/8506531682_fc9b69a630_c.jpg)
Also I have been thinking about running a front carrier and I have changed my thinking ::) I would only use a Handlebar Bag keep it light up front and have fun on the Dirt roads and tracks.
Pete
8)
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Thanks Pete & StuntPilot!
700c vs. 26": with handbuilt, strong wheels, 700c is no problem, assuming you're capable of repairing a wheel with spare spokes/nipples, but it's still a bit stressful. Ended up staring at every single bike wheel coming past me in Africa. Especially taunting: most bikes there(Kenya-South Africa) were those cheapy indian ones with the double top tube which have a 28"+ wheel size, that is actually just larger than 700c. Anyway, after all that paranoia now going with 26" and shifting paranoia onto my front fork. Nothing like a bit of mechanical fear to keep looking after the bike ;-)
Sounds like repairing an air sus fork isn't too bad either. I watched a couple of videos from Magura on servicing their air forks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40NUFsIfPd4 (full disassembly)
https://www.magura.com/en/bicyclecomp/products/suspension-forks/menja.html (it's under the picture of someone unscrewing a bolt on the fork, bottom right - small service)
I'm a bit concerned that I can't find the Menja in the 2013 section and all their forks are now, surprise, disc only. Hope Thorn has a big stash?
So here some more questions:
- is there a pump that doubles for forks and wheels? I know the fork pressures are much higher.
- wouldn't the wooden stick repair work equally for an air sus fork?
+ 1 on the no trailer, no front panniers option. Apart from the extra wear by adding weight to the forks, it would of course impede the front maneuverability on rougher surfaces, which seems to defeat the idea of sus forks (obvious overkill on tarmac touring). BUT: that means: more needs to be on the back. Looking at the Thorn brochure, Andy talks about the long chainstays allowing for the rear weight to sit inside the wheel-base. When we started touring with our previous bikes we only had rear panniers with stuff additionally strapped on top. It was a bit horrendous. The bikes were ok to ride, but they hand a tendency to 'rear up' like an angry donkey and constantly wanted to fall over(more like backwards and then over) when rested against a wall. So we got front racks and panniers and it was all good. But now going with the sus forks we'd have to get more stuff in on the back again. We're pretty good at minimal luggage, but especially for longer/ potentially rougher weather trips (South America vs. Africa) we need a bit more space? The panniers in the nomad brochure photos look MASSIVE - what are they?
We've got rear and front Ortlieb Roller Plus. A pair of the rear ones, handlebar bag and a dry-bag over the back ok for 6months+ of South America?
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Hi Yes to the wood stick repair, but you will not need too.
Why because if your spring brokens you can just keep riding! Your fork will only drop a few mm's 10mm at the most.
A fork coil spring will last years before broken! I have only come across a few broken in the last 33 years of working on motorcycle and bicycle forks.
The hard thing about wheel building is not the lacing up, or truing up your wheels, its to have all your spokes loaded with the same loading.
I build and true my wheels in know time, its the adjusting so that all the spokes have the same load.
As I said good luck finding your forks, more and more are disc only.
Pete
:o
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The panniers in the nomad brochure photos look MASSIVE - what are they?
Yes I have a full set of these Panniers they are made in the UK. by CARRADICE
Here is a link to them
http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=product&under=type&product_id=22 (http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=product&under=type&product_id=22)
They big at 54 litre capacity per pair and far strong then Ortlieb and Bigger :o
Pete
8)
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So here some more questions:
- is there a pump that doubles for forks and wheels? I know the fork pressures are much higher.
Hi Yes to a pump!
I know of only one pump that will do this it's a Topeak Shock 'n Roll Pump, here is a link about this pump.
http://www.topeak.com/products/Pumps/shocknroll (http://www.topeak.com/products/Pumps/shocknroll)
Or you can go with a STD tyre pump HP and use a Topeck Shuttle™ Gauge! Pump to Gauge, Gauge to Air Fork! and here is the link
http://www.topeak.com/products/Pumps/ShuttleGauge (http://www.topeak.com/products/Pumps/ShuttleGauge)
I hope I have helped Answer your Questions ???
For me I can Service and repair any Air or Coil Spring Fork! But I have gone with a Coil Spring fork because they work better on Dirt and Rocky Roads, Air Spring Forks are lighter (do you need a lighter fork?)
And I like to go with the old KISS
Pete
8)
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Hey Pete, thanks again for all the links and info!
coil vs. air:
- touring I obviously couldn't care less about 100s of grams. So the pump doesn't bug either, esp if I were to go with the tyre/ fork pump option. On that note - I like the pumps that have a small connecter hose. You can repair punctured tubes 20 x easily, but if the valve is buggered, that's it. So in that regard, not fussed either way.
- don't want to go disc, that's just asking for too much worrying, so that limits the above choice considerably. I've read all the heroic stories of finding an ancient fork from the good old times, but seems a little tricky. I know this has been asked before, but most forums posts I've found are a few years old:
(quality) v-brake coil forks??
- coming back to the worst case scenerio: fork failure in middle of nowhere. Wooden stick option also applicable for air?
- mild case scenario: something is a little buggered, all I would need to carry (for the air option) would be spare seals, the grease and/or oil, the required torx bit and pump of course? All that doesn't sound like anymore than I would carry for the unlikely event of the speedhub wanting attention? The mechanic-y part doesn't bother me, just how much likely-never-required stuff I'd have to carry? A film canister of grease and 100ml oil don't bug me.
In short, coil would be lovely, but hard to come by and air isn't that much of a drama after all?
And back onto the topic of panniers and rack. After some more research, the tubus swing option doesn't seem that bad after all. Not planning to stuff heavy weight into the front panniers, but the volume makes a difference (and not having to buy new panniers, considering we're fully decked out already on that end and the bike, etc is gonna be ..$$$).
Came past these two sites:
http://www.thefuegoproject.com/i_gear.html (Alaska-ushuaia, thorn bikes, Magura Odur forks, tubus swing - "22000k's no problem" , though "Broken Parts (Ali): front rack tubus swing twice (*replaced free by tubus*), "
http://www.gurdon.cam.ac.uk/~ad327/india2008/kitlist.html (Himalaya cycling, Fox forks/ discs, but with tubus swing)
And those springs in the brooks saddle look more and more comfy...;-)
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After reading this thread yesterday, which re-awakened my desire for trying out how a sue fork would suit (or not) I almost bought one. I've got it in my cart right now, waiting with a bit of uncertainty, to pull the trigger.
The part that stops me is the fact that I weigh 220lbs plus change (A live of Beer - well lived) and so I think that whatever the forks, I would be wise to immediately replace the springs with the firmest springs available. I like the RockShox XC32TK or XC30TK. Both seems very well priced and both can be had compatible with V-brakes. What I can't seem to find is what model of firm spring that fits these and where I can purchase them. I've read that on a mountainbike forum that it can be hard to get the springs. So ... anyone with ideas? Secondly, it would appear that all the models out there are available with the aluminum stem, not the steel version. Would it be, do you all think, a bad idea to tour with an aluminum stem ... instead of holding out for either a different model or until I can locate the steel stemmed variant? Or is that inconsequential?
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Pavel,
Replacement springs for these two forks can indeed be a bit hard to find at present.
Whenever I want to do a quick search for parts, I turn to the QBike merchant search engine. It is limited to member merchants, but is helpful nonetheless: www.qbike.com
Universal Cycles does carry replacement springs for the XC30 for about USD$33 here: http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/index.php?category=87
A SRAM dealer should be able to help you out with RockShox replacements (RockShox is part of the SRAM group) and are your most likely source. I'd contact them first to see if the springs are currently in production and available or if they only exist in remaining stock.
QBP (Quality Bike Products) also lists RockShox replacement internals. QBP's listings for RockShox replacements for all models are in this custom comprehensive search: http://harriscyclery.net/special-order-catalog-qc49/?action=list&searchtype=search&keywords=springs&Brand=349&gobutnsearch=Search
Narrowing it down a bit, the specific springs for the TK30 and TK32 are listed here: http://harriscyclery.net/special-order-catalog-qc49/?action=list&searchtype=search&keywords=springs&Brand=349&gobutnsearch=Search&startRow=76
Do note, most of the replacement parts for these two forks are listed as "out of stock" in the QBP listings. If/when they become available, any QBP-member-dealer can place an order for you, or you can go through Harris Cyclery, linked through the custom searches above.
'Wish I had something more definitive, but that's the best I can come up with at the moment. If my own finger were itching to pull the trigger on placing an order, I think I'd establish a firm source for the needed springs first. Personally, I twitch a little at the mention of alu steerers -- especially for off-road touring, but they work fine in long service under very rough usage when mountain biking. I rarely hear of any alu steerer breakages, so it may simply be my deep-seated mistrust of aluminum frames for touring that colors my view.
Best,
Dan.
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Pavel,
The SRAM/RockShox spare parts catalog with part numbers is here (downloadable PDF): http://cdn.sram.com/cdn/farfuture/ANyaEyGQwj9PMvu3l8s8ySQ5bJoseEABNStrOQd8rv4/mtime:1362172526/sites/default/files/techdocs/2013_rockshox_spc_rev_b.pdf
The coil spring chart by rider weight is here: http://cdn.sram.com/cdn/farfuture/EutPSWMVI5GpisXo9r_hUmio0bsMnNIxOhi4mQ7XY8s/mtime:1340223420/sites/default/files/techdocs/gen_0000000004200_rev_a_rockshox_suspension_fork_coil_spring_chart_2013.pdf
I do see 220lbs/99kg is their listed upper limit.
When checking out the chart, don't forget to factor in bike/load weight also if you're touring, especially if carrying a front load (i.e. panniers on a Tubus Swing front carrier).
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan. Thorough as usual! :)
I too have some strange vibe about the thought of aluminum in such a stressed part; and somehow the thought of putting a lighter part on a tank like the nomad seems silly, against the mojo of the Thorn. It could upset the cycling gods, so I think I will wait or search for a different fork. I'd pay more, but none seem available anywhere with the steel steerer and then on top of that the spings being hard to source ... it just does not feel right ... so I will keep looking.
But man ... that price was sooo sweet! :D
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So after some more sleepless nights trawling the net I came past some German lady on her second (!) round the world: http://dorofleck.wordpress.com/ using the Magura Menja. I assume after her first 86,000k's she'd be fairly decent judge of what to go with and what not!
Ok, so there I thought I had put my #firstworldproblems to sleep and could go ahead with the other fun details...but then I glimpse down the sizing chart table on page 22 of the nomad brochure and see that at my height (6'3", 190cm bang on) my anyway tricky choice between 590L, 620M and 620L is subdivided into suspension fork possible (590L) and not (620M&L).
So here the usual drill: I'm 190cm, "normally" proportioned - what frame size would suit? Using one of the straight bar options and likely going with a suspension fork.
I've looked at all the riding position options, but one person's relaxed is...well, subjective. I've got a road bike and riding on the drops doesn't bug me as far as flexibility goes (I'd say I'm reasonably fit/ flexible). I've got a 700c tourer, which is mighty upright. Not the best against headwind, but obviously comfortable. Only aches I had touring was a numb bum and a bit of cyclist palsy (numbness between little and ring finger on both hands lasting several weeks (!) from initially not riding with a)gloves and b)comfier bar tape. Shoulders, arms, back - no probs.
Sizing input greatly appreciated!
Btw - in email contact with Magura regarding what I'd have to carry as spares/ tools - will post as soon as I hear back.
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590L, 620M and 620L is subdivided into suspension fork possible (590L) and not (620M&L).
Thorn were very helpful in helping me to decide between a 590L and 620L. 620M (wasn't available when I ordered mine). I sent them some photos of me on my other bikes and they asked me to measure my arm span and other things. I'm 6ft 1&1/2inches and went for a 620L but had some rather odd requirements. I find 165mm cranks a lot easier on my knees and with these fitted my unusually long legs for my height would have put the saddle at its max height for a 590L frame. I was keen to have the added heal clearance given by the longer chain stays on the 620 frame, and even though I'm running short cranks I would still have to have placed my panniers further back if I had gone for the smaller frame (with size 12 SPD shoes). This wouldn't have been a problem as far as the rack is concerned but would mean that the weight from panniers is not as much within the wheelbase of the bike. Also I noticed that the seat tube angle differs between the 620 and 590. So I am able to manage without a large layback seat post on the 590 to get my saddle as far back as I like. HOWEVER I have no intention to run suspension forks. Although the 590L is compatible with sus forks I doubt whether the steer tube on the magura forks is as long as on the thorn rigid forks, so it may be worth investigating if you could still get your bars at the desired height if running magura forks on a 590L frame.
so I gues you need to decide if you really need a sus fork. I've not cycled along the Camino Austral but have been along a fair chunk of it in Chile so can see why this might be benificial.
Would an alternative be running a wider/softer front tyre, something like a 2.35 big apple (though I'm not sure what the clearance is like to thorns fork). even if you couldn’t do this with traditional mudguards I'm sure there would be a way to make something that would work as a mudguard mounted through the middle of the double fork crown.
This seems to be getting more complicated.
Ewan
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This would seem one situation where a suspension stem might help ('specially if a HB bag could be mounted on a separate T-bar), but with Girvin/Flexstem out of the game and no replacement/maintenance parts available, I don't think you'd want to rely on used eBay parts and potential bearing flex issues on a long tour. A few NOS examples are still out there in a variety of extensions, but are expensive: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOFTRIDE-THREADLESS-SUSPENSION-STEM-150mm-/161006373107?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item257cba48f3 ...and... http://www.ebay.com/itm/SOFTRIDE-THREADLESS-SUSPENSION-STEM-140mm-/151026491842?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2329e161c2
There are several threadless suspension stems available from Taiwan and China at present, but they have no maintenance kits -- you use them till the wear-induced slop bothers, and then replace them. See: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUSPENSION-ADJUSTABLE-0-55-DEGREES-AHEAD-HANDLEBAR-STEM-28-8mm-KINDSHOCK-LUA-/181118709712? It uses an air/oil combo for 23mm of travel...but no apparent means to take up wear. A Forum member and I talked about these last month as a possibility, but I don't think he sent for it. Suspension stems are not currently listed among the manufacturer's offerings: http://kssuspension.com/ (their former site www.kindshock.com.tw is no longer viable).
Advent made one (for an example, see: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Advent-threadless-suspension-ahead-stem-/380502360135?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5897b54047 ), but apparently no longer do so. Same issues wrt long-term wear and lack of service parts.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
The German company SQlab have been making a modern take (http://www.sq-lab.com/produkte/vorbau/sqlab-802-vorbau-gefedert.html#.UW2jfUq4F8E) on the old Girvin Flexstem with elastomer suspension but it looks like they have stopped producing them for the moment, their website says that they are revising their stem product line, so maybe they will be making them again in the near future.
Meantime there still seems to be some available for sale on various sites, for around 90-100 euros, e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Neuheit-verstellbarer-Vorbau-SQ-lab-802-mit-Dampfer-/330591171409?pt=Sport_Radsport_Fahrradteile&hash=item4cf8c4f351
A video of the stem can be seen here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea4Y8Q3opMc
I would have bought one of these last year, but they were only in 25.4 handlebar size and mine is 31.8.
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The German company SQlab have been making a modern take on the old Girvin Flexstem with elastomer suspension...
Oh! Nicely found; that's wonderful news, Rual -- thanks for the heads-up. It is always good to have options, and I am sort of surprised we haven't seen a more widespread revival of these for the touring market. They are lighter than a fork and a complete pare could conceivably be carried on a long trip. The principle isn't too different from a ThudBuster sus-seatpost. The later Girvins had coil springs, of course, and the Taiwanese model I referenced above claims an air-oil cartridge, each giving more travel in a parallelogram rather than limited hinged arc with bar tipping.
I keep hoping we'll see more of this sort of thing come to market. True, the niche is probably limited, but it would be nice to have something besides fat tires (tyres) or a full-sus fork to take the edge off bumps, especially on long adventure tours where one is likely to spend much of every day on poor roads.
On the other hand, as shown a the 1:07 mark on the video, the rider has to push down on the 'bars ahead of the pivot point for it to work properly and provide effective suspension. All these designs would therefore tend to work better with straight or drop handlebars than with comfort or North Roads that could place the center of pressure rearward of the pivot.
All the best,
Dan.
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but then I glimpse down the sizing chart table on page 22 of the nomad brochure and see that at my height (6'3", 190cm bang on) my anyway tricky choice between 590L, 620M and 620L is subdivided into suspension fork possible (590L) and not (620M&L).
Do you know what length the head tube is on the 620s, what is the minimum steerer tube length needed for a set of forks to fit them?
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Hi All,
Well I like the stem by SQlab (thanks Rualexander)
I was looking for a stem like this for My Africa Cycle Ride last year! It would have been the Bee's Knee's 8)
Now this got me thinking about a fork that I also was looking at (But Run Out of Money) :o before going to Africa ???
So Here it is
(http://www.german-a.de/shop/image/cache/KILO_No13-500x500.jpg)
You can have it with V-Brakes, Low Rider Carrier, e.t.c.
It is made in Germany so I think you can ask to have a Pair make with a longer Steerer to fit your Bigger frame size.
I like the "Kilo 1.3" best for cycle touring :) and here is the link
http://www.german-a.de/en/kilo.html (http://www.german-a.de/en/kilo.html)
Pete
::)
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The Kilo fork is a whopping 1300Euros....rough. Looks good though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-cT5SHkTJQ
Here for reference, the Magura reply of what to carry along/ general comments on v-brake suspension forks:
- v-brake forks really do not sell well hence the struggle in finding some. There are some dealers out there who have them. If you have the capital & want to keep v-brakes, may be worth investing in a set or 2. Be aware that spares will start becoming scarce.
- the fork needs a good set of single allen keys (not a multi tool); flat blade screwdriver; a good set of Torx keys; shock pump; & 28mm socket for the damping & air cartridges
- I would either take 4 50ml tubes of Forkmeister grease (very expensive) or a couple of 150g tubs of Stendec Easy Glide fork grease (we use this & sell it too). The Stendec is cheaper & lasts longer. Worth buying Stendec Crystal Glide Spray (or Juice Lubes Fork Juice or Fenwicks Suspension Lube). We cannot ship this from the UK using Royal Mail anymore as they will not take aerosols.
- you only require Magura Suspension Blood Type 2. In 100mm travel fork it is 60cc in the damping side. I would be surprised if you needed to do this while away.
Menja was stopped at the end of MY2012 (January 2012 date wise). The new fork is a TS6 26" 100, which you can purchase as a disc only or canti-disc model. This depends on what your distributor has ordered for your country though.
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So much for maintenance, doesn't look too wild.
I had a look around for the new TS6 26" 100, definitely states cantilever (v-brake) bosses as an option, but most websites I found were only offering the disc-only model. Nonetheless, all is not lost, there's still (one?) reasonable quality v-brake compatible fork being made that can be bought.
Coming back to the steerer length, asked about the Magura steerer length with regard to tall people, I got this:
Its known as an XL steerer & is 300mm from memory
Despite the Asian sounding name, the company is German, so I figured they'd cater for the tall folk.
Just measured bottom end of headset to top of stem on my 700c tourer - 250mm.
Would those 300mm be long enough to work with a 620L frame? Could someone tall with a 590/620 frame measure their (rigid fork I presume) steerer length and post? Would be greatly appreciated!!!
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I don't know much about suspension forks as I've never used them, but there are a bunch of cantilever/v-brake compatible suspension forks on the Rosebikes site http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/products/bike-parts/forks/mtb-forks/suspension/
Some of them have the steerer tube as a separate part available in different lengths up to 300mm.
Looking at the picture of the 620 Nomad in the brochure it looks like a shorter head tube than on my Sherpa 610S which I think came with a 350mm steerer tube, and I cut about 50mm off at least.
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My Sherpa Mk2 (565S), a replacement fork for it, and my Nomad Mk2 (590M) all had/have 400mm steerers (uncut, measured from crown race seat to top of steerer) with their rigid fork blades. In answer to my emailed query when I ordered the replacement Sherpa fork, SJS Cycles told me the forks were supplied with 40cm (400mm) steerers.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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Alex - great find, amongst all the small print still some hope. So it's Magura, RockShox and RST(not sure about those on a long tour, must admit) that still have v-brake options.
So we've got a Sherpa 610 with ~300mm of steerer, Nomad 590M (Dan - how tall are you?) with 400mm. Anyone with a 620 for comparison?
I get that 300mm/ 620 frame would be a bit of a squeeze, but couldn't a rising stem be used to make up some cm? I've got an adjustable one on my 700c tourer that gets about 80mm height increase vs a horizontal stem. And as mentioned before, I don't feel to adverse to a (slightly) more sporty position. On current tourer seat and handlebar are level.
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'Chapa',
I'm 5'11'/180cm with proportions right-on average for my age cohort (53). I prefer drop 'bars, so that called for an "M" (Medium) frame with shorter top tube; I *could* have fit a 565M or the 590M. Others on the Forum with Nomads (Il Padrone Pete, Frank Revelo) are the same height. Pete went for the 565 (L, I believe) and Frank went for the 590M without drops and also chose a shorter stem as I did. I chose the larger 590M frame to reduce the amount of seatpost extension and to better get the 'bars where I wanted them. Though the larger frame had marginally less payload capacity, the longer top tube added a bit of stability in the bargain. I left my steerer uncut and used every bit remaining for my above-'bar Rohloff shifter setup. I use an inverted 60mm rider stem ("dropper" stem) to get the 'bar tops even with the top of my saddle. As an aside, I needed a long-layback seatpost to get my knee-to-pedal relationship correct with a Brooks saddle (designed in the days when bikes had much slacker seat tubes).
<nods> Yes, a riser or adjustable stem can be used to regain needed height if the steerer is too short, provided the steerer is long enough to clamp to safely above the upper headset cup.
Custom stems are another option, and can be brazed up by any framebuilder, sometimes for a pretty reasonable cost. I'm a hobbyist framebuilder and constructed my own adjustable tandem stoker stem with no problem.
Yet another option would be to use riser 'bars unless you plan to use drops. If you do go for drops, you might consider a Syntace VRO riser stem that is also adjustable for height as well as reach: http://www.syntaceusa.com/index.cfm?pid=3&pk=389
I would suggest emailing or phoning Thorn/SJS Cycles to ask how tall the head tube is on the 620 to eliminate much guesswork. Thorn are very helpful answering questions. If you don't receive an answer after a reasonable time, resubmit your query, as they sometimes have extremely high demand on services and might have missed your mail in the rush.
Best,
Dan.
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Ok, I've just been out to the shed with a tape measure.
My Sherpa 610S has a head tube length of 245mm.
My steerer is currently 350mm so it must have been 400mm uncut, same as Dan's, I still have 90mm left between the top of the headset and the top of the stem cap.
A good photo of my Sherpa can be seen here http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3235.15
From these measurements, it would look likely that a 300mm steerer in a 620L Nomad would barely leave enough steerer available to fit a stem or tube extender, unless the Nomad's head tube is significantly shorter than my Sherpa's.
Hope this is of some help.
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Dan, Alex - thanks for the info/ measuring!!
Having had another look at the nomad brochure, I actually found the head tube length: 200mm (for the 620 vs 166mm for the 590). A visual comparison of the Sherpa and the Nomad show that the headtube is closer towards the imaginary meeting point between top and down tube and accordingly shorter, all else being equal.
So it might be looking up again for ye old suspension! 300mm XL steerer, minus 200mm for the head tube, minus headset+/-...should be enough to get a stem on there and then rise up from there...? Just how to get the XL steerer to them...mmmh.
Sounds like it's time to get out the measuring tape on myself and drop Thorn a line!
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Having had another look at the nomad brochure, I actually found the head tube length: 200mm (for the 620 vs 166mm for the 590).
Well done, I couldn't see it for looking, but now when I look again, there it is, plain as day. :-[
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Having had another look at the nomad brochure, I actually found the head tube length: 200mm (for the 620 vs 166mm for the 590).
Your Right :)
I just checked my 540L with the size in the Brochure and it bang ON
8)
Pete
;)
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Hi thorn forum!
Been a passive reader for a while, but brace yourself - meteorite shower of questions is coming your way (in other threads)!
Just to follow up on my original posting of taking suspension forks to South America: we're going to do it! Just got the email from Thorn that both our bikes are built and ready for collection (we're picking them up en route early next year)! Whoop! The price-tag is a bit nauseating, but hey, life's too short to ride sh** bikes.
So we'll be having a Magura Menja each (from my understanding that means there is one single one left in Thorn stores). When we ordered there weren't any V-brake compatible ones left, so we've succumbed to the disc brake world (Avid BB7 cable operated). I had a good chase around for V-brake forks and Magura (as well as some of the Fox/ Marazocchi gang) does still make them, but then you have to find a distributor/ shop that has the three of them - pretty tiring work. Of course there are cheapy RST ones, but really not sure about their durability. In the end, what the hell, why not go the full hog with discs brakes. Neither V-brakes nor disc brakes are going to take kindly to a truck going over them. And to ye old moan of 'what do you do with bent discs?!' - well, you bend them back of course! There is special tool for that (steel with a groove of the exact diameter as the disc, bit like spoke key), but a pair of pliers can do the same job. Won't ever be perfect again, but straight enough to keep going nonetheless.
In short: we'll be taking air-sprung forks and disc-equipped (front and Rohloff back) Nomads for a year down the Andes. I'll post here either way (trouble-free or cursing, we'll see). Having read/ watched a lot of South America touring blogs/ videos, etc. there's heaps of people taking suss forks and disc brakes and I'm yet to come one complaining about having done so.
All that's left to figure is were to get the Magura spare seals from...
After umming and ahhing about the Tubus Swing option (and firmly deciding against a trailer), Tubus sorted that problem by stopping to make them. I presume because they we're sick of people complaining that they couldn't mount them properly? Another nail in the coffin was the mention that it doesn't fit the Magura Odor, so I presume the Menja neither. As we weren't keen to fork out cash for a new set of (Carradice) panniers given that we already have the ortliebs, we are going to go with Ortlieb handle bar bags (on the T-bar accessory), rear rollers and a big rear bag (also Ortlieb, the one that clicks into the roller closing straps). With two people (i.e. half a tent, stove, pot, etc. each) that should be plenty of volume and a good incentive to keep unnecessary stuff to a minimum. That's down on the front rollers we had in Africa, but up on the big rear bag, so total volume up. Beyond that the 3 bottle cages on the frame plus 2 on the fork, mean that won't need to carry water bottles in the panniers (as we had to in Africa), at least when around human settlement.
Ah, and more point on suss fork steerer length: from chasing around various Magura contacts - they do indeed make a 300mm XL steerer, which would would fit the 620L Nomad frame head tube, but you'd have to find out where Magura sent it after making the two of them. And in the end Thorn recommended that the 590L frame would be better for me (6'3''/ 190cm height) with a suss fork to keep some 'clearance' between a rebounding top tube and some delicate rider parts.
Just a few more months!!! :-)
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And one more useful link I came by: http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/ortlieb-pannier-bag-tip/
Adding an extra pair of hooks onto ortlieb rollers to have 4 in total on each bag minimises bending at the rack when the bags are full.
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What marvelous news -- a brace of Thorns on the way and about to hit the road!
All encouragement your way, and eagerly awaiting the reports as you put the bikes to use.Adding an extra pair of hooks onto ortlieb rollers to have 4 in total on each bag minimises bending at the rack when the bags are full.
Sure do! I use four on each rear bag (aids theft-resistance as well) *and* add double stabilizer fins as well to keep the bags firmly in place and provide a ready spare in case one fractures (they can and do, occasionally). I also add compression straps to tie the bags limpetlike to the racks to quiet them on rough roads and to minimize second-order vibrations. You should be fine with your new setup.Just got the email from Thorn that both our bikes are built and ready for collection (we're picking them up en route early next year)! Whoop!
Whoop indeed! How exciting! All good wishes your way for an adventurous yet safe trip, filled with enjoyment and experiences to last a lifetime.
Best,
Dan.
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I also add compression straps to tie the bags limpetlike to the racks to quiet them on rough roads and to minimize second-order vibrations. You should be fine with your new setup.
13mm OD/10mm ID plastic aquarium tubing (with no mounting hook spacers) on the rack top bar and vertical stay has achieved this security and silence for me now. ;D
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Great news on the new bikes! I bet you can't wait! A great trip ahead too!
Having managed to track down a Magura Odur coil fork set (mentioned above), I was also keen on securing spare parts. I understand that the Menja is the air version of the spring Odur model. It has the very same construction.
Here are a few places to try for Menja spares ...
http://www.bike-components.de/shop/cat/c291_Menja.html
http://www.passionbikes.de/Ersatzteile/Federgabeln-143/Federgabeln-bis-2010/Menja-85-100-XC/
http://www.bike24.com/1.php?ID=8ea78c301b3ce5acd217d0635026b9bb&content=13&navigation=1&menu=1000%2C2%2C121&search=magura+menja
I think the UK Magura Service Centre is one of these ...
http://www.racemechanic.co.uk/
http://www.maguraspares.com/
I would be looking again at putting some of that load onto the front of the bike. The stability should be improved and with less strain on the back. Have you looked at the Old Man Mountain 'Sherpa' suspension racks? Might be worth considering.
http://www.oldmanmountain.com/Pages/RackPages/FrontRacks.html
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I too am looking for suspension forks for the Nomad (590M). But, not for loaded touring.
This coming spring, several friends and I are looking at doing a vehicle supported mountain bike trip in Southern Utah (desert region of Southwest USA) for four days. Most of the others plan to rent fully suspended bikes in Moab for the trip. I was planning to use my Nomad instead (plan to switch to 36t chainring/16t cog). But after several people told me that I would enjoy the trip much more if I had a suspension fork, I started to think more about a suspension on the Nomad.
I have never mountain biked with suspension, so am quite ignorant of the issues. I rode for a week on a suspended fork on a hybrid on pavement on a fully supported tour in continental Europe, but quite frankly I never noticed anything about the fork. That is the limit of my suspension experience.
Since the group will have vehicle support, I will only have to carry camera, a day of water, lunch, perhaps some clothes and some spares & tools on the bike. Probably will use a small saddle bag. So, front rack issues do not apply.
I specifically I want to use V brakes, not disk.
I have been doing my research and have read most applicable comments about a suspension fork on "Tom" at least twice. Have also read all pertinent suspension comments in the Nomad sales brochure.
I recognize that the fork might get 4 days of use and then sit in storage in perpetuity. But, since renting a bike would cost almost $200 (USD) for the trip, I figure if I spend up to $200 for a fork, it is not really costing me anything. I am retired and do my own bike work, so labor cost is zero. I built up the Nomad last spring and would prefer to try the Nomad in a new environment than rent someone else's bike, so that is why I would prefer to buy a fork.
Am considering a RockShox XC32TK fork with brake bosses - coil spring. If this is a bad idea, I would really like to hear what is wrong with the fork for this purpose.
It is my understanding that the XC32TK is a slight downgrade from the Recon on "Tom", the Recon apparently has a better stanchion design. The Recons that I see on line cost over the $200 USD threshold.
The Menja would cost more than twice as much. Thus, I am not very interested in that option. And, just in case I decide to use the fork for touring later, I would prefer coil over air for reliability.
I did some searches on some mountain bike forums to see what others said about the RockShox XC28, XC30 and XC32, and most were saying that the XC28 and XC30 were not that good. But I was not seeing any negative comments on the XC32 except by the elitists that want air springs.
I have a sprung Brooks, have a cheap sprung seatpost that I might use, but might just use the solid seatpost instead. I might actually bring both and decide when I get there.
I am unsure if I will be able to fit my Thorn T Bar for handle bar bag on the steerer, but that is not critical. Otherwise I am sure that the steerer is long enough.
Any comments anyone?
Should I anticipate any difficulty getting a steering bearing race off of the solid fork? Are FSA races easily obtainable for the second fork?
Thanks.
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Hello fellow Thorns!
Stuntpilot - awesome work on those spares links, had put that research in the 'tough one' basket, thank you so much!
Out of all those offerings, which ones/ how many would you recommend for two forks, up to 20,000km and 1 year?
Going with the first link, what do you think of this:
- 1 spare lock-out knob (the blue thing)
- 2 O-ring sets (black rings pic)
- 2 of the bottom-out rings (yellow ring pic)
- 2 of the hollow screws
- 2 of the red headed screws
- what about the "Unterbeinschraube"? (I understand German, but without a pic it's a bit hard to picture where that screw goes)
That's about 100Euros of spares all up, but might be worth it ward off evil spirits! By the sounds of it we could easily go through the whole trip without using a single one, but then going without will get me all mechanically paranoid again...
I've been contact with the UK addresses (they both end up with the same one guy). He replied a while ago with that info that I posted re fork lubes/ oils, but hasn't replied with the spares listing, might be xmas busy...
Re racks on suss fork: I had a feeling there would be alternatives to the Tubus Swing, but while the latter hung the weight off the frame, all the others including the Oldmanmountain ones seem to fix them to the wheel section. Considering the weight of front panniers (easily >10kg with two of them), that would take that moving part of the fork from <2kg (wheel plus lower fork part) to >500% of the intended weight, which just can't be good longevity, don't you think? And all that said, with two bottle cages on the fork (2x1.5kg filled) plus putting heavier stuff in the handlebar bag (e.g. tools) I feel we should e able to shift packed weight forward at least to some extent.
Thanks also for the rack tips. The Thorn racks also need the Ortlieb inserts in the hooks, which just seem destined for going walkabout (hence needing to buy replacements). Aquarium tubing - I take it the ortieb hooks without insert are for something close to 13mm diameter? You cut the tubing lengthways, put it on and duct-tape it? And re double fins - you just insert a second one in the lower pannier mounting groove facing the other direction?
Mickeg - our bikes will have the accessory bar. I presume it just displaces the rings that usually sit between the top of the head tube and the stem connection. Just look up steerer length of your desired fork and subtract your nomads headtube length and the stem attachment length. If you've got say 5cm/2'' left you should be fine.
Man, this is like researching for having babies!!! ;-)
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Each to their own mickeyg, but for all this hassle I'd just be hiring the suspension MTBs. For real trail riding (if that's what it is) a well-specced dually is going to much more fun, and comfortable, to ride than your Thorn.
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Re racks on suss fork: I had a feeling there would be alternatives to the Tubus Swing, but while the latter hung the weight off the frame, all the others including the Oldmanmountain ones seem to fix them to the wheel section. Considering the weight of front panniers (easily >10kg with two of them), that would take that moving part of the fork from <2kg (wheel plus lower fork part) to >500% of the intended weight, which just can't be good longevity, don't you think? And all that said, with two bottle cages on the fork (2x1.5kg filled) plus putting heavier stuff in the handlebar bag (e.g. tools) I feel we should e able to shift packed weight forward at least to some extent.
Friends of mine have been touring for many years on regular shorter tours (3 - 20 days) using low rider and high mount racks, fitted to suspension forks using hose clamps and rubber packing. I do believe that Tubus supply some mounts designed for non-eyeletted frames of this style - not sure about large enough for suspension forks.
It's a shame the Tubus Swing is no longer available, but it was a bit dated as it no longer fits the newer styles of supension fork crowns. I guess a redesign was not justified by the low sales. There used to be this one also - the Faiv Hoogar (http://www.faiv.de/english/lowrider_gb.htm), another German design, using a sliding rail lower mount. Not sure whether it is really still available, but 220 Euro is pretty prohibitive :o
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5174/5507265181_e465f805f4.jpg)(http://www.faiv.de/english/photos/riese-und-mueller-hoogar.jpg)
Putting heavy weight in a handlebar bag with just rear panniers is a bad load balance option IMHO. I have seen several nasty falls on tar and gravel by friends riding down hills with just this combo. It can produce speed wobbles on tarmac, and a lighter loaded front end is prone to skating on loose stones, or bouncing on rolling bumps. I would always recommend load in front low-riders as much better stability-wise.
Thanks also for the rack tips. The Thorn racks also need the Ortlieb inserts in the hooks, which just seem destined for going walkabout (hence needing to buy replacements). Aquarium tubing - I take it the ortieb hooks without insert are for something close to 13mm diameter? You cut the tubing lengthways, put it on and duct-tape it? And re double fins - you just insert a second one in the lower pannier mounting groove facing the other direction?
Ortlieb hooks without the inserts are about 16mm. I've used the 13mm tubing, slit lengthways and secured on the rack with cable-ties.
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Hi All,
Look! the only things we replace on all the forks at work are New Fork seals and Oil.
I would Not Take any spare parts as this will just add to your load, Take the tools you need and only order the spare parts IF you need them, in the end most Cycle Tourists sent KG's of gear and have more fun being lighter.
As for Forks, the RockShox XC32TK are good forks, there is a lot of good new (NOS) on E-Bay, have a look!
I have charged my Tom back to STD Thorn Nomads forks :o I do ride hard offroad (over drops etc) and if you lower your tyre pressures all is Fun and Simple.
Happy Cycling All
Pete
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The reason I hunted high and low for the Magura Odur suspension fork (now discontinued) was because I watched the videos from Tom Allen. He and a mate cycled across Mongolia and that was the fork Tom Allen used. I have mentioned his exploits on other threads. You will find other suspension fork discussions elsewhere on this and other forums.
http://tomsbiketrip.com/adventures/mongolia-2010/
Another reason was that if you have a reliable fork then there would be no need to carry spares, and only do any repairs/service after returning home.
I am with Pete. In fact I would probably only carry spare fork seals with the Odur. I think your Menja forks will last the distance without them anyway!
il padrone is on the mark re. load balancing. I would always use front and back panniers even with suspension forks. On my North Sea Cycle Route tour this summer, I tried the bike fully loaded, and rear loaded only. Without weight on the front, the ride was much more unstable, particularly on rough tracks. Note that Tom Allen did not use front panniers across Mongolia, and used a trailer instead. I am not in the trailer club (yet!).
On my way back up through England a couple came up to me in a small market town in Linconshire. The first thing he said was that he was happy to see bags on the front and back of the bike. It transpired he and his wife had spent three and a half years cycling round the world over all sorts of rough terrain. They said they could not have done it with only bags on the back referring too to stability issues when no front bags were used. They were not fans of trailers. I bowed to their superior wisdom and experience!
As for rack tubing and protection, read this topic for more information ...
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4290.0
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Hi all,
thanks for all the input - and stopping me from being a cycling cycle-spares shop!
So the consensus would be the seals set (pretty light) and a bit of the fork lube mentioned above? Extra tools are only one extra Torx bit and a 28mm socket, not too wild shared between two...
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Hi there,
after nearly ten months of deliberation, we're nearly off to South America! Just a trip to Somerset to pick up our two Nomads, a last hit on the bank card and we're off - huzzah!
Considering all the very kind and helpful input I've had here, I'll try to summarise we're all this has lead to for the next person contemplating something similar.
Started this thread contemplating a suspension fork on our Nomads. Why? We tried escaping the one (I kid you not!) paved raod from Nairobi to South Africa for a couple of days, just to find our bikes, gear and ourselves being taken to pieces by the African backcountry roads (not single trail - there was motor vehicles on this, busses and all). Several thousands k's later on the said paved road with constant too close for comfort encounters of the motorised kind, we swore to get off-road capable bikes next time (nothing like turning around and seeing a till then alive full-size adult goat - hit by the passing 100kmh car - narrowly flying past my partner). So there.
Questions that came out of this were:
- reliability, spares, tools, etc?
- luggage/rack/pannier management
Reliability:
Well, I can't tell you yet (will update once I reliably can), but I'm optimistic about the Magura Menja. Quality enough, not too complicated. Posted somewhere above about the German lady riding around the world A SECOND time with one, so should be ok. And then Tom's biketrip Magura Odur experience. And endless online photo/video evidence of people touring with sus forks and little to no reports of drama.
Pumps:
yes, with an air-sprung fork (yes, I know, coil sprung more fail-proof, but then I like the idea of being to adjust spring rate with different weights, more to that below) you need an extra sus-pump. Between the two of us we would have anyway taken two pumps for the tyres. We got ourselves the Topeak Shock'n Roll dual use pump and one extra sus-pump, so three pumps all up (one tyres only, one forks only, one both). Extra weight minimal.
Spares:
I had a helpful exchange with the UK Magura tech-support guy. These are the spares that I ordered from him:
32mm Seal Kit $25
Rebound Adjuster $20
Rebound Bolt $25
Set of O-rings $8
Stendec Easyglide Fork Grease 150g Tub $12
Magura Suspension Blood 2 (comes in enourmous bottles 500ml, will only take 60ml) $15 (ordered separetely - can't be shipped out of the UK)
Nothing too major in terms of both $$ and weight.
Brakes:
Ah yes, originally I was determined to find a V-brake sus fork, but that's just difficult to combine with a good quality fork. Gave up, instead going with Avid BB7 cable operated disc brakes. They come with 'organic' pads (less squeeky, but less durable), taking 4 sets (i.e. one for each wheel we have) of metallic sintered pads (more squeeky, more durable). Before you lambast me with more disapproval, I reckon they'll be as reliable as V-brake brakes. Bent rotors I hear you say? Bend them back (youtube instructions to the rescue)! Less wear on the rim must be a bonus.
Sus forks for tall people:
I'm, 6'3"/ 190cm, so without considering the sus fork I'd be between a 590L and the next size up (620L I believe). With the sus fork the issue comes that the 690L head tube is too long for standard sus fork steerers. UK Magura guy confirmed that there is an XL version with a 300mm steerer in existence, but the one of it is hidden away somewhere in the German bush. Besides this, Thorn recommended me going with an 590L to get enough stand over clearance, so that 'soft parts' and top tube can remain friends in an emergency hop off the saddle (keeping in mind that without rider weight the fork will lift the bike a few cms). Yet taller folk - good luck!
Tools:
These are the 'extra' tools required to be on the safe side (mentioned by the UK Magura guy):
- 6 and 8mm AK (besides the Thorn recommended 2,3,4 and 5mm)
- Torx bits T7, T8 and T25
- 28mm socket
No dramas either.
So after all these technical details sorted, the next challenge was where to put all of our luggage, keeping in mind both handling and excessive wear on the rear wheel/ tyre. I'll save you endless details, but here just a quick time-lapse of thoughts with final conclusion:
1. Front racks as per usual with Ortlieb Front rollers...
Ditched that idea when I realised the Tubus Swing is out of production (I presume because sus fork crowns are too diverging in design these days).
2. Just bottle cages on the forks // handle bar bag // Ortlieb back rollers // 31l Ortlieb rack bag, copying the Andy&Fiona Thorn pdf photos...
That was my plan for most of the run. Volume wise this should have been ok (we've toured a little bit, fairly frugal with stuff and 2 people = half-sized tent, stove, pot, tools, etc. etc.), but I kept being concerned about putting all that weight at the back. While the Nomad is definitely capable of that, it would lead to very imbalanced wear of the rear vs. front tyre, not to mention risking spokes breaking...but my plan was to simply keep weight down and live with it.
Then I researched the *** out of how to get bottle cages onto the sus fork (like in the Thorn pdfs...). Found several recommended here, not quite so cheap options (compared to just putting bladder on the back)...Tubus rack attachments, Monkii clips/ cages, BikeBuddy... Finally ended up emailing Thorn /Andy Blance to find out how they got their profile design cages mounted on the fork - drum roll: super-glue and agricultural strength zip ties, believe it or not. Being left confused between expensive options (relative to their practical use that is) and DIY I fled into the idea of ditching the bottle cage idea and just minimising luggage at the back and locating bladder/water weight as close to the saddle or low as possible. Something was still nagging though as Andy mentioned that a little weight on the fork was beneficial to handling up very steep (25% - his words) inclines.
Then some unsuspecting work day I got chatting to a co-worker who does those nutty no-sleep-500km-running,cycling,climbing,etc adventure races about all this and he recommed the ex-"Freeload" now Thule Pack'n Pedal rack system. I'd came past that yonks ago, but wasn't quite convinced at the time. Mentioned co-worker said that he had one for years, done several 1000k's offroad and loaded with it and once even dinked (carried) a team mate on one for several hours. Being an experienced single-trail tourer he said that having a few kgs of weight on the front fork helped it a)stay on the ground, b) stop the front from skidding out under in tight turns and c) make the bike in general handle better (assuming the same weight distributed now partially forward). I was indeed a bit concerned about the handling, especially for my partner. A loaded bike gets close to her body weight, so I was concerned the bike would have the tendency to rise up horsey-style if going up a step corner. So hearing from a guy who manages to run&cycle for several days without sleeping...well, I'll let you judge that, but I was fairly convinced. Researched the rack some more, seems to be used a bit, though mostly in the bikepacking (few day trip) world, but then it seems pretty robust. Co-worker said the ratchet-strap system is very secure and the fork body only suffers minor surface scuffing. Thule give a 5year warranty on it btw.
Ok, after that stream of consciousness, the too-long-didn't-read summary:
- getting a pair of Thule Pack'n Pedal racks (I admit the name is a bit naff), sticking them on the front forks
- hanging our Ortlieb front rollers off them (with four rather than two hooks and with aquarium tubing to match the rack tubing/ hook diameters + cinch cords)
- I'll carry a 31l Ortlieb rack bag (tent+food), my partner a 20l dry bag(sleeping bag - Feather Friends Penguin),
- Ortlieb handlebar bag on the Thorn accessory bar
- standard Ortlieb rear rollers
My sincerest thank you to all you helping me nut this out!!! Especially Dan, what a legend you are! :-)
Cheerio,
c4c
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Hi c4c!
What a helpful summary you've offered; bound to be of great help to those following who wish to take an extended tour with sus-forks. We'e not had much firsthand information on this, so your efforts are much appreciated.
Hoping all works well for you -- it is an innovative approach, but with proven components, so all should be fine. If possible, please let us know from time to time how you're faring, or a check-in After so we can all offer encouragement and/or cheer you onward.
Congratulations on nearly concluding the long and careful prep and all best wishes for a wonderful journey and time on the road (and off-road!). May many happy adventures roll beneath your wheels.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi all,
been meaning to repsond to this for a while - here we go.
We did 9months from Guatemala to Bolivia with our two Nomads, 9000k's, 140 000 vertical metres of cycling uphill, lots of coffee, incredible part of the world.
Bikes performed marvelously, only things that didn't make it back in one piece was my lady's bike's rear rim (cracked, I'm guessing not from on the road bumps, but when it gets rolled fully loaded off a curb - dunkg it goes) and the little suspension locking levers on the handle-bar - they didn't survive the saltwater spray exposure on the stretch from Panama to Colombia (I used a lot of tape, tarp, oil to keep them protected, but there's only so much you can do on a sail boat. I think there's a more serious ferry running these days - or fly).
Good thing to figure out before is the various compression rings inside the steerer tube. I inserted them the wrong way during install at home (I didn't realise), then thought I'd lost them on the route and hunted for replacements in Costa Rica...to no avail, before realising my mistake. A lot easier to figure out at home, but then again, that was a pretty busy period as well.
Main point - minimise the stuff you take - hills become much more friendly. Minimise again.
So to respond to the items I listed before the trip:
Reliability of suspension fork:
Despite the dust, the bumps, the salt water - no problem at all. I was quite zealous wiping off dust and re-greasing once a week for the whole trip, but I think they would have survived the same without. Magura - great stuff. Main take-home: a little suspension fork grease goes a long way.
But that said, with the 2inch+ tyres, we could have done the same trip without suspension forks. If I would buy again, I would opt without suspension fork, but if you've got the cash, it can be nice, but certainly not necessary - on a loaded touring bike you'll never nail down a hill that fast anyway.
Pumps:
Main take-homes - you don't need that many pumps (one main and one samller backup are plenty between two), make your main one one that can be pinned against the floor with a foot, 2inch tyres with the mini handheld is an absurd workout. Lezyne makes good ones like that. And finally - check how much pressure your fork actually needs. My wife only needed 50psi, me somewhere 70-80psi depending on load - both easily attainable with a tyre-pump, no need for the higher pressure dedicated suspension pumps (we had too many pumps, sent them home). Check at home - then buy, check again before you leave.
Spares:
32mm Seal Kit - didn't use it, but it's tiny.
Rebound Adjuster - didn't use it, but it's tiny.
Rebound Bolt - didn't use it, but it's tiny.
Set of O-rings - didn't use it, but it's tiny.
Stendec Easyglide Fork Grease 150g Tub - I think I used 10g in 9months tops. Only take a small amount.
Magura Suspension Blood 2 - took 60ml, but shoul have left it all at home. In an emergency there are plenty MTB shops in all main cities all along central and south america.
Take home - don't regret the spares, as getting them would have been impossible, but cut down on the bulk items.
Brakes:
Avid BB7 cable/operated - great stuff, no regrets. The Magura Menjas could have taken V-brakes if needed. Take a few pads, but in Costa Rica, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Bolvia you could get hold of spares without too much trouble. On dry stretches on tarmac they last a long time, but with rain & dust they get eaten mcuh faster, so difficult to guess milage. Practice alignment (it's not that hard) and replacement at home - the first time will otherwise be on some dusty decent with light running out in the border nomands land just before Peru - and you'll curse yourself.
Do not take hydraulic breaks. Maintenance is not that hard, but you will have to carry heavy liquid replacement stash. Motorbike brake liquid which you can get everywhere is typically 1 grade lower, i.e. it can't handle the brake temperature you get on a loaded touring bike. Friends on the road had to walk their (admittedly tandem bike) down several 2000m descents in Peru because their brakes blew out and they couldn't get oil that could handle it. Don't do it, cables work just fine.
Sus forks for tall people:
I'm, 6'3"/ 190cm, so without considering the sus fork I'd be between a 590L and the next size up (620L I believe). With the sus fork the issue comes that the 690L head tube is too long for standard sus fork steerers. UK Magura guy confirmed that there is an XL version with a 300mm steerer in existence, but the one of it is hidden away somewhere in the German bush. Besides this, Thorn recommended me going with an 590L to get enough stand over clearance, so that 'soft parts' and top tube can remain friends in an emergency hop off the saddle (keeping in mind that without rider weight the fork will lift the bike a few cms). Yet taller folk - good luck!
- this sizing worked great!
Thule Pack'n Pedal racks:
They worked a treat - rock-solid, didn't slip at all on the suspension fork.
We had the 'classic' 2 small front rollers and a handle bar bag on the Thorn t-extension each. Worked fine. But - not rattle proof. The basic problem is that the glass-fiber plastic the Ortlieb mounts are made of, definitely start eating racks, no matter what they are made of. I used small ratchet straps to pull back&front pannier tight plus some extra cords to stop the handle-bar bag from jumping. All a bit of a pain, especially if you had to take bags off&on in hotel staircases, etc.
The back arangement (2 Ortlieb rollers, a main rack bag on the top) is fine. All it needs is a good amount of padding tape placed on at home and one ratcheting strap for each item to keep it snug against the rack.
For the front I will change to a more bike-packing type set-up. Same front-racks, but not using Ortlieb rollers, but some normal outdoor water-proof top-roll&clip type back bags, preferably sausage shaped (I'd say 1ft/30cm tall, circumferance that you could just get 2 hands around each) and place them parallel to the fork arms on each side with straps. And then use the top-platform for something handlebar-bag-esque, i.e. removable for a quick shop, but not the handle-bar bags, they just rattle too much off-road.
Ah and water - 1 10l bladder is enough. The one time you need more, you can really just strap some bottles on. And water-purification - over-rated. Take one packet of non-iodine pills for an emergency, but leave Steripen or pumps at home - we managed 9 months off the beaten path just fine. Stomach bugs will come to you no matter what.
And electronics - that's a curse. We had 1 smartphone with off-line maps and one simple digital camara. And a small, foldable solar panel. For the most part, charging batteries on the grid willl get you b. The less junk you have, the less hassle. As soon as laptop, tablet, gopro and slr take over your life - you are screwed. You'll be wondering some mountain village searching for wifi, stressing about uploading your youtube video, the video editing backlog (1min edited requires 1h of work), stressing that the GB's of mindless gopro footage of you cycling through somewhere boring have filled your TB harddrive...don't do it to yourself. The number of macbook drones we saw on our travels, slaves to their devices and online upload commitments that missed the beauty around them - too absurd to comprehend. Really.
Happy cycling,
C4C
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Thanks for posting.
Regarding pannier hooks eating racks, I do not know what diameter tubing your rack is. I use the Tubus Logo rack on my Thorns for touring and I think that is 10mm tubing. I put some clear PVC tubing over my rack tube and used electrical tape to secure it to the rack.
I am in USA where most stuff is sold using inches instead of mm or cm for dimensions, the PVC tubing is 1/2 inch outside diameter, 3/8 inch inside diameter.
I did not use the little inserts on the Ortlieb hooks, the PVC tubing and a bit of electrical tape wrapped around it make the hooks fit just right.
On the front I use the Tubus Ergo rack, I used the same PVC tubing on that rack too.