Thorn Cycles Forum

Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: JWestland on October 22, 2012, 12:08:16 PM

Title: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on October 22, 2012, 12:08:16 PM
Hi -

Just noticed I don't see a Saddle Thread. The saddle on my Thorn is one the way out as the fabric is splitting and plastic doesn't sow well, not a big fan of the Duck Tape look ;)

Brooks are a firm (especially when not broken in yet) favorite here. But maybe not everybody's cup of tea, leather needs maintenance, bit heavy etc.

Also, how does one measure one's sitbones when changing saddle type? A lot of bike shops don't have a measuring tool, or they do but you might not have £80 for the latest saddle.

Might be good sharing some tips on that. Well, my two cents...

The sit bones: You can use aluminum foil on a soft chair to assess the impact one ones posterior to estimate what width is required. (tx for bike radar) sit down and lift your legs to leave a good imprint, or alternatively in the comfort of your own home with curtains closed, doors locked, excuses on hand when spotted etc , feel for the sitbones and measure the distance.

Right now that that is done what saddle does one get?

If the bones are 130 mm apart, a 130 saddle (measured at the widest point) means you literally are sitting on the edge. So I replaced the specialized avatar on my bike with a 143 model (the cover is going). But I could have gotten a 155 (like the Charge Saddle on the Hob) so why not? I prefer somewhat narrower but that's a taste thing (you can "straddle the saddle" better)

But as saddle manufactures can give width in different formats, best to check with seller before buying online, unless you replace a saddle you are familiar with.

Position/Comfort: So the next step is position: I tend to sit half forward, so a very padded saddle or a very narrow race one probably won't suit me. If you are fully upright a bit fat saddle might just be the thing for you, or a narrow mountain bike one (more padding).

Taste: Soft saddles can sink in and pinch the soft tissue, unless they are really wide and you sit upright. But in the world of hardness there are degrees of course. This is where reading reviews comes in...

Men/Women: Women's saddles come wider, and some brands say they got special features for soft tissue relief. Well, I used Brooks (ancient), Avatar (men) and Charge (women) and it seems the sitbones bit/hardness is mostly important. Of course the narrower and harder you want your saddle to be, the more important it is you get that bit right.

I ended up reading a lot of reviews, lusting after a Specialized Jett (Avatar is a men's saddle) which was only on e-bay for 130mm at widest point and thought...well the avatar works why spend more? and then got the deal from Evans for an Avatar.

BTW if you have a particularly fussy behind, it might be worth getting two of a certain model, as every few years manufacturers change things. Aside from Brooks if a B17 suits you... ;)

If a saddle works of course...just get a new one! But maybe it doesn't. Well just my 2 cents hope you find it useful.


Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on October 22, 2012, 02:22:36 PM
is my ass to big in this saddle  ;) all good advice i'm sure but if you dont spent enough time in the saddle (Bike)  it doesn't matter a damn about the correct width  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on October 22, 2012, 05:04:36 PM
Hi Jawine!

You're absolutely right -- we need a dedicated saddle thread, and I can't imagine why we haven't had one till now; thanks for starting it!

My longtime favorite for the last several decades has been and remains the Brooks B.17. It fits me well, I prefer them new rather than used, and I like the shape and natural "suspension" the slung leather provides.

Before that -- and still, on some of my bikes -- my favorite has been the Avocet Touring II saddle, produced in its original form from about 1978 to the early-mid 1980s. Comprised of a thin nappa calfskin cover over "bump-shaped" dense foam over a nylon pan with thinned spots under the bumps, this has worked well for me. I have two on my tandem, and several more. These have held up well in all weather, are supportive for me without being "too much", and are my second-favorite saddles to the Brooks. One of their great virtues is their consistency -- a good example of an Avocet Touring II will always feel the same over time. Their many imitators in "anatomic" saddles and those that are gel-filled or lycra-covered never matched the original Touring II in my experience. Of course they are no longer made -- at least not in that form -- but a few can still be had on eBay from time to time.

As for measuring my sit-bone (ischial tuberosity) width, I used the bend-over-as-I-would ride-and (while wearing my thinnest underwear) -feel-around-for-where-the-bumps-are method. Slide a caliper against one finger, and slide the other finger along till it matches the bump on the other side. Remove, and read. It can also be done while sitting, but is harder to get the caliper in place; the tinfoil method didn't work so well for me back in the day. By the time  got up, it appeared my sit-bones were the size of dinner plates or even serving platters.

There is a key point (sorry) to sit-bone width that is often overlooked: The width is not constant, but varies depending on how the pelvis is rotated -- it gets narrower toward the front in both men and women, and wider to the rear. What this means is, if you sit upright, your ischial tuberosities are effectively wider, and if you ride in a racer's tuck, they are effectively narrower, so take your measurements in the position you'll be riding, and choose your saddle width accordingly so those weight-bearing sit-bones will be in the ideal spot for you and the riding position you prefer most often. This is why my tandem stokers -- male and female -- tend to prefer the slightly wider women's Avocet Touring II I have in the rear position; they sit more upright, and so need wider support than I do, leaned over more in the captain's compartment.

If one goes for a Brooks or other leather-suspended saddle, sit-bone width has a direct bearing on comfort. Why? It is because these saddles have a steel rear flange to which the leather is attached. For these saddles to be comfortable, your sit-bones must sit on the leather and not the flange. I ran into this mismatch myself with a glorious Fujita Pro saddle, made from a thick cut of water buffalo hide. The thing was nearly twice as thick as the leather in a Brooks Professional, and the build quality was magnificent. I put it on my best bike with such pride, and after spending a good 20 minutes admiring it, went for a ride. Oh, the pain; exquisite agony. The saddle was narrower than my B.17s, and so was the steel flange, intended for a racer's very low position. In my more upright touring position with 45° back, my pelvis was rotated rearward enough so the wider portion of the sit-bones were directly atop the steel flange. Man, words can't describe the effect, but it was BAD. Fighting both facts and reality, tried again and once again with the same results. I removed the saddle and sold it to my neighbor, who was delighted with it for his low-back position on a vintage Peugeot PX10LE. As for me, disappointed and much chastened for being seduced by beauty over function, I returned to my Avocets and B.17s and have been happy ever since.

'Hope something in the above will prove useful. It isn't easy selecting a new saddle, and -- you're right, Jawine! -- when you find a "keeper" get at least two; they do change 'em from time to time. As for me, I wish I could find someone who wanted to buy Brooks saddles in perfect condition that have been just broken-in. I prefer mine new and through to break-in but not so much beyond. I don't put a lot of weight on the saddle, so unless it is a particularly thin or compliant cut of leather, it sometimes takes a few years to get there. eBay's a help for selling on, but I sometimes wonder if there are people who would like a saddle where all the hard work's already been done and the thing is comfortable for them from the start.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on October 22, 2012, 05:11:19 PM
Aaah the sitbones are wider at the back, that explains why in a more upright position you need a wider saddle   :D

Tried the alu foil, no joy either too big an imprint. The other method is more... undignified but it works.

(It is really bad I know try to get that underwear picture out my head? I guess underwear for cycling is possibly another topic)  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on October 22, 2012, 05:16:46 PM
Quote
It is really bad I know try to get that underwear picture out my head?
<nods> Yeah, I know...I thought awhile before posting that. The trouble is, if you try it in riding shorts, the "chamois" pad gets in the way of accurate measurements. And if one tries it in the buff, it is actually harder to get accurate measurements. Thin, knit underwear fabric is the way to go for accuracy.
Quote
I guess underwear for cycling is possibly another topic
Uhhh...yeah. S'pose so.  :-\ "try[ing] to get that underwear picture out my head".

All the best,

Dan. (At loss for an appropriate closer this time...)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Swislon on October 22, 2012, 05:34:48 PM
Ah saddles. What a topic. I have three B17 s, all very comfortable, hammock like as you tend to sit in it rather than on it. I have heard recent B17s haven' t got the same quality of leather than of days of old. One of mine has become looser than the other two but tightens up OK


I am just trying a Giles Berthoud Aspin on my Van Nicholas Yukon and finding it more of the kind you sit on. Still leather and thicker than a B17. Will need a bit more breaking in than B 17 but I think will be brilliant after a few more miles. I did try Brooks Team Professional before but didn't take to it, which is odd because I have a 33 year old Brooks professional that was always comfortable in my youth but is rock solid now. Perhaps your anatomy changes over the years.

Specialized use a sit pad that leaves indentations of your sit bones. They will then tell you which size of their saddles you will need. I availed myself of this service but couldn't bring my self to try one of their saddles yet. Maybe one day.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: wildrover on October 23, 2012, 01:00:42 AM
Here's more discussion (from the ladies) on that subject:

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=38436&highlight=sit+bones

I placed one of our memory-foam mattress toppers on a hard bench (and sat on it).  It held the impression of sit-bones long enough to measure.

Holly
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on October 23, 2012, 11:25:48 AM
Tx good tips :)

They should do a big pole with 20 seat-posts with saddles on it to test sit at bike shops!

As like buying a sofa, it's hard to do online.

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: honesty on October 23, 2012, 12:28:34 PM
Interesting topic. I've never owned a brooks saddle myself, though have some 20 odd years ago ridden my dad's bike with an old Brooks B17 on it. I remember it hurt like anything.

At the moment I use a Charge Spoon Ti. The none Ti versions are dirt cheap, but the titanium railed ones were only 20 quid more on Wiggle and are covered by real leather. So far its been really comfy.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on October 23, 2012, 03:58:14 PM
There is a Brooks that is widely said to be comfortable out of the box. (Well, actually, mine came in a plastic bag.) It is the Brooks B73, with helical coil springs at all three corners.  I don't notice mine any more, so I should say it is extremely comfortable. It's essentially a B67 with a third coil at the nose.

It is important as you sit up straighter, and many cyclists are now, that your saddle becomes wider. There are some heavier duty models than the B73 in the Brooks catalogue (B135 is one that comes to mind) but they're not wider. The only current wider model is B190, a monster of a saddle built for really huge people and really hard service. (I fingered it, and decided I'd never even break it in...)

As wide (ish), comfortable, heavy duty Brooks saddles go, the B73 is the lightest of the lot at that end of the Brooks range. I weigh 210 pounds and ride hard on bad roads but not very far, so I don't see the necessity of a "colonial" model Brooks, but there is no evidence that the B73 in harder or more extended use will suddenly wilt.

The street myth that a Brooks B73 sways from side to side on the nose coil, propagated even by Brooks themselves, is nonsense. I'm pretty hefty as cyclists go and as a retired motor racer have a finely developed sense of yaw, and I have never perceived the slightest sideways instability. There's not much movement in even the fore and aft plane, which should be easier to induce, because those springs are extremely stiff.

And they get stiffer on all models on the far side of Brooks line from the B73, and on some are doubled up. At that end of the range, it isn't only the leather you have to break in, the springs will probably want to take a few thousand miles to settle too.

I'm very satisfied with my B73, which I bought at a sale at SJS as an experiment, and have since carried from bike to bike.

***

I've been on other people's B17, broken and new, and have found them all too narrow for the angle of my back. But then you're not supposed to sit on a B17 but to hover your bottom above it and support yourself on your legs with your feet on the pedals. I just don't understand why loaded tourers, whose needs are different, would fit the B17 new. (It's a different matter if you're bringing a broken saddle with you from another bike. Better the devil you know than chafed whatnots for a couple of thousand miles.)

At the B73 end of the Brooks range, you're definitely intended to sit on the saddle, and for many hours at a stretch, day after day. It is no accident that in the days when the Raleigh was mass transport, they fitted much wider saddles than B17.

So, to summarize:
1. Don't see the B17 as a tourer's saddle.
2. B73 is probably as far to the other side of the Brooks range as most want to move.
3. In between there are some really good saddles that share the B73's wider seat without the weight of the springs, including the B66 and B67, which I once heard a Dutchman describe as "a grown-up B17".

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on October 23, 2012, 08:21:36 PM
Hi Andre!

A beautifully written summary, as always.  I think you've placed your literary finger squarely on a larger issue, as well, when you write...
Quote
I've been on other people's B17, broken and new, and have found them all too narrow for the angle of my back. But then you're not supposed to sit on a B17 but to hover your bottom above it and support yourself on your legs with your feet on the pedals. I just don't understand why loaded tourers, whose needs are different, would fit the B17 new.
My response (not in disagreement, but in amplification) is touring means different things to different people, and the nature of "touring" has changed over time. "Touring" of today is not the touring of old.

In the days of the French constructeurs (1930s, '40s, '50s) and on up through the 1970s when I started touring and on into the 1980s, touring most often took place on bicycles with drop handlebars set higher, and was an offshoot of the roadie tradition, simply scaled back a notch in intensity and redirected toward long day-rides and cycle-camping. "Tourists" in these eras wore adaptations of road-racing clothing for the most part, and the bikes (remember, drop handlebars) were setup much the same as road bikes.

I would good-naturedly argue the B.17 was purpose-built and appropriate for this sort of touring.

I agree heartily the B.17 may no longer be as appropriate for the evolving nature of what is increasingly called "touring", and seems to be an adaptation of the German "bike-trekking" model, where riders sit much more upright, go on- and offroad at a generally slower pace, and often ride in hiking boots or more multi-modal footware for use and versatility off the bike as well.

If one is more influenced by roadie traditions and tours in an inclined posture, then a B.17 is hard to beat as a touring saddle. If one sits more upright and has the handlebars to match, then -- agreed! -- a wider saddle and very likely one with springs) is more appropriate.

All the best,

Dan. (...inclined-B.17-loving-old-school-roadie-tourist-with-hummingbird cadence-whew!)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: revelo on November 02, 2012, 07:04:46 PM
If one goes for a Brooks or other leather-suspended saddle, sit-bone width has a direct bearing on comfort. Why? It is because these saddles have a steel rear flange to which the leather is attached. For these saddles to be comfortable, your sit-bones must sit on the leather and not the flange.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I found my B.17 to be comfortable from the day 1. Back when it had about 2000 miles on it, a bike shop owner with much experience with Brooks saddles remarked that it looked like I hadn't used it much.  I now have about 3800 miles on it and it still looks like new. It occurred to me after that remark by the bike shop owner, and recalling all this talk of "hammock" that maybe I wasn't sitting right on the saddle. It's hard to tell exactly where I am sitting, but after shifting around a bit, I came to the conclusion that I am sitting on the flange. The flange is wider right where my sit bones go, so this isn't uncomfortable. I do notice that when I hit a big bump, I slide forwards and hit against the leather part of the saddle, so that I bounce a bit. But then I immediately push myself back onto the flange. All this is quite natural and comfortable. And yes, I sit in the relaxed position most of the time, and sometimes in the upright position (using my fingertips to control the handlebars) when I'm tired. You can see how high my handlebars are relative to the saddle (590M and I'm 181cm tall):
(http://frankrevelo.com/hiking/biking_nomad2012_loaded.jpg)

When I experimented with sitting a bit forward to get off the flange, I felt pressure on my perineum. This is what people warn against with bicycle saddles. So I didn't continue the experiment. But it certainly did NOT feel more comfortable to be on the unsupported leather than on the flange.

I should note that I spent much of life before I retired sitting on a folding metal chair as my office chair, so maybe the skin over my sitbones is toughened up from that.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on November 02, 2012, 07:23:28 PM
Quote
...it certainly did NOT feel more comfortable to be on the unsupported leather than on the flange.
Hi Frank!

I'm delighted you've found an ideal position on your Brooks, and I think this simply proves the old adage: "We're all individuals".

Cycling is certainly not a "one size fits all" pursuit and there's many paths to success and enjoyment when setting up bikes and riding. In the end, I'd say it doesn't matter where one sits -- or how, or on what -- so long as one is comfortable! Most cyclists I've spoken with seem much happier off the flange.
Quote
I should note that I spent much of life before I retired sitting on a folding metal chair as my office chair, so maybe the skin over my sitbones is toughened up from that.
Maybe!  :)

Dan. ("Sometimes I sits and thinks and sometimes I just sits." -- A.A. Milne. "I often sits on a bike saddle; 'best place for my thinkin'." -- Danneaux.)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: martinf on November 02, 2012, 08:44:05 PM
Another vote for B17 for drop-bar touring type use. I have my bar tops level or slightly higher than the saddle top, and ride mainly on the hoods, so a fairly relaxed position.

I also ride flat-bar bikes in a more upright position, and for these I prefer a B67 Flyer. This is basically a B17 with rear springs, and isn't any wider.

Narrower saddles (Brooks Pro) don't work for me.

André is probably right about wider being necessary on really upright bikes - I suffered from a sore rear on my first Netherlands exchange in 2008 and thought it was due to the padded plastic saddle. So this year I took one of my super-comfortable B17s and fitted it to my exchange partner's very upright bike. It wasn't comfortable with that riding position.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: revelo on November 03, 2012, 12:42:13 AM
I've been following the journal of this guy:
(http://farm9.static.flickr.com/8161/7507354002_52edff1dd2.jpg))
at http://www.tiredofit.ca (http://www.tiredofit.ca) for over a year now. (Website is slow as molasses, so be patient. He's a web designer by profession and evidently likes to maximize complexity to show off his technical skills.) He is using a Thorn Nomad MKII to take an around the world tour, though he apparently recently had a nervous breakdown in Africa. Very interesting discussion of his gear here: http://www.tiredofit.ca/2012/05/26/talk-gear-find-worked/ (http://www.tiredofit.ca/2012/05/26/talk-gear-find-worked/), including a photo of his current Brooks B17 Imperial, which he apparently rides like a hammock. Here is another photo of that saddle: (http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5213/5419785476_58af5590f4_z.jpg)

There's an even better photo somewhere of his old B17, which looked like a banana-shaped hammock it was sagging so much but the website lacks a search function and is frustratingly slow to search manually.  It doesn't surprise me that these hammock style B17's have caused him major health problems, so that he is now thinking of getting one of his testicles removed. From http://www.tiredofit.ca/2012/08/15/manifest-destiny/  (http://www.tiredofit.ca/2012/08/15/manifest-destiny/):
Quote
"After years of abuse from riding, slipping, and perhaps even getting kicked waaaay back when I’ve decided that once I get into more friendlier Medicare territory to undergo surgery to have one of my testicles removed that seems to give problems for no apparent reason, even after repeat visits to doctors along with x-rays, ultrasounds, and other “exploratory” measures. Enough is enough."

Clearly, there's something to be said for sitting on the flange. Humans have been sitting on wooden chairs and benches or even stone benches for ages, with no ill effects. Surely sitting on metal padded by thick leather can't be any worse. A little soreness on the sitbones is a lot better than soreness in the testicles to the point where you need to get them removed. Or impotence due to constant pressure on the perineum nerves.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on November 06, 2012, 01:37:28 AM
The best place to be seated on a leather saddle is always well towards the rear, just ahead of the rivets, where the saddle is a good deal wider to support your sit-bones. Further forward the saddle narrows a lot and you'll place nasty pressure on your perineum

It's hard to tell exactly where I am sitting, but after shifting around a bit, I came to the conclusion that I am sitting on the flange. The flange is wider right where my sit bones go, so this isn't uncomfortable. I do notice that when I hit a big bump, I slide forwards and hit against the leather part of the saddle, so that I bounce a bit. But then I immediately push myself back onto the flange.

You need to tilt your saddle's nose up a bit, so that you don't slide or bounce forwards at all, but stay in the best seating position. The correct tilt in my experience with a bike with the bars level with, or a little below, the saddle is about 5-10 degrees max. You can see it here on my bike:

(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/petesig26/Red%20Centre%20Way%20and%20the%20road%20to%20Old%20Andado/P1020116_zps302019f5.jpg)


My commuter has a more upright seating position and the saddle is tilted up even further - looks nasty to many people inexperienced with a Brooks, but it's perfectly comfortable for me. I have dropped the tilt a bit but I just found I slid forwards and had to cotinually push myself back. Once many years ago on a long tour I found I was getting sore shoulders. Remedy - tilt the saddle nose up  ;) No more sore shoulders.

(http://smile.webshots.com/images/7f1558d0ef5c012ff56e22000abc09fa/jpg/800x600)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: revelo on November 07, 2012, 07:05:24 AM
The best place to be seated on a leather saddle is always well towards the rear, just ahead of the rivets, where the saddle is a good deal wider to support your sit-bones. Further forward the saddle narrows a lot and you'll place nasty pressure on your perineum

You need to tilt your saddle's nose up a bit, so that you don't slide or bounce forwards at all, but stay in the best seating position. The correct tilt in my experience with a bike with the bars level with, or a little below, the saddle is about 5-10 degrees max. You can see it here on my bike:

Maybe that works for you, but I felt pressure on the perineum when I tilted the saddle like you are suggesting. Also, I'd still move forwards during a bump (that's what a bump does, it stops the vehicle but not the passenger, which is why we have seatbelts in cars) and having the saddle pointing up would just cause me it hit it in an uncomfortable position (right in my soft parts rather than on my sit bones). I frequently stall in sand and when that happens I am thrown violently forwards, all the way off the saddle, which is why I would never wear clip-ins and especially not toe-clips or powergrips and which is why I am happy to have plenty of standover clearance. I'm not sliding forwards during normal cycling, so there is no arm pressure. Most importantly, I really don't want to be like that guy I linked to above, who's messed himself up so bad with the saddle arranged like you suggest that he is thinking of getting one of his testicles removed. So I'm staying with my current system of sitting on the flange. I apparently have a rock hard bottom, so it doesn't bother me sitting that way.

As for anyone concerned about this issue, who doesn't have a rock hard bottom, I believe that is something that can be developed over time. Just like building up the toughness to walk barefoot on sharp rocks, which I was once able to do but no more.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: revelo on November 07, 2012, 05:52:47 PM
From http://www.petergostelow.com/thebigafricacycle/general-posts/talking-gear/ (http://www.petergostelow.com/thebigafricacycle/general-posts/talking-gear/):

Quote
Do I blame my Brooks B17 leather saddle for causing my testicular torsion? At first I felt it was the cycling and friction between me and saddle that was to blame, but in hindsight I almost certainly now know that it was a cold shower totally un-related to the cycling that caused it

Click the URL below to see a photo of his saddle:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergostelow/6885272994/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergostelow/6885272994/in/photostream/)

Holy aching testicles! Methinks he's dreaming if he doesn't think riding a saddle like that isn't going to cause health problems eventually.

I am definitely NOT going to be moving off that flange.

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: wildrover on November 07, 2012, 08:10:15 PM
Did you all notice the Selle Anatomica saddles are on sale?

http://www.selleanatomica.com

Wish they were wider, but LOVE that red!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on November 08, 2012, 12:23:54 AM
Click the URL below to see a photo of his saddle:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergostelow/6885272994/in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/petergostelow/6885272994/in/photostream/)

Holy aching testicles! Methinks he's dreaming if he doesn't think riding a saddle like that isn't going to cause health problems eventually.

Looks all pretty normal for a well-broken in saddle really. It could probably do with a bit of tensioning, but not too much as this can lead to damage to the leather. My old Conquest looked a bit like that and it was exceptionally comfortable - riding it was like sitting in a favourite armchair. Never gave me any discomfort or testicular troubles.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on November 08, 2012, 11:00:04 AM
Ow those anatomical saddles ARE nice :)

I can testify that a slot/deep groove is the way to go...and I don't even have man bits to worry about!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Swislon on November 08, 2012, 06:45:14 PM
I tried a Selle Anatomica with cut out. It didn't work for me at all, as it nipped my bits !  :'(
Not a nice feeling at all.
Sold it and went back to the Brooks.

I am trying a Giles Berthoud Aspin at the moment and that has alot of potential. It starts off hard and ungiving and after an hour or so seems to
warm up and becomes very comfortable. I think going to be a good un.

Steve
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 08, 2012, 11:54:12 PM
Ow those anatomical saddles ARE nice :)

I can testify that a slot/deep groove is the way to go...and I don't even have man bits to worry about!


Mmm. I have a Terry saddle with a cutout. It came on a bike on which I overlooked deleting it from the default "base" spec. I rode on it for an hour, which admittedly is longer than I suffer most saddles; my average before I decide to chuck a new saddle is less than ten paces. The record is less than ten feet for an abomination of a "racing" saddle Trek fitted  to an expensive bike aimed, complete with automatic gearchanging and electronic suspension control, at comfortable middle class commuters. I kid you not.

It's odd that so many designers get the saddle wrong when the rest of the bike is at least okay.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on November 09, 2012, 11:31:21 AM
Hm, so I do like a slot and you don't.
It seems saddles are almost like garlic, some people like it... ;)

The default cheaper bikes generally come with nice fat gel saddles, can't go much wrong with that.

My specialized avatar generation MK3 is lighter than the MK2 one...but...it's slightly less comfy. It's still comfy don't get me wrong, but there's less padding/a higher groove in it. Darn racing weight weenies.

It's padding level3, and reasonably hard, I dread to think what padding level1 is  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 10, 2012, 12:41:05 AM
I didn't say I didn't like the slot, Jawine. I've only tried the one from Terry, and didn't like it well enough to keep. But, since I rode it an hour before going back to a proven saddle, it least it wasn't instantly objectionable, like far too many saddles. Like you, I did like the harder gel saddles, such as the Selle Royale that came on my Gazelle. Like yours, incidentally, it couldn't exactly be described as "soft" but it was comfortable after several hours, which is what matters.

My experience with the Terry did make me wonder whether the guys who cut keyhole slots in Brooks saddles aren't on to something. I'm terrifically busy, so someone else will have to find the piccies on the net. Sorry.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on November 10, 2012, 02:05:36 AM
The default cheaper bikes generally come with nice fat gel saddles, can't go much wrong with that.


Yes you can actually. Big soft gel saddles that your butt sinks into. Your seating is pretty much fixed, not easy to shift about a little bit. Your butt gets sore from being in the one position all the time. The gel also retains heat and you get a hot, sweaty butt.

Why I like leather - you're able to be more mobile on the saddle and they tend to be cooler.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on November 10, 2012, 02:08:40 AM
My experience with the Terry did make me wonder whether the guys who cut keyhole slots in Brooks saddles aren't on to something. I'm terrifically busy, so someone else will have to find the piccies on the net. Sorry.

http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=57960
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8474/8134665389_ab540a0c3f_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 10, 2012, 03:21:56 AM
Super thread that. Thanks! -- AJ
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: revelo on January 10, 2013, 03:59:29 AM
I'm resurrecting this thread since what I said above about sitting on the flange is wrong. It's hard to figure out where I am exactly, but I appear to have my sit bones just slight in front of the flange, so that I can feel the flange pushing on me but the sit bones are not on the flange itself. There is very little deformation of the saddle after 8000 km. Unless you look carefully, and notice some slightly crinkling of the leather and a very slight indent on the left side, you'd think the saddle was brand new. The saddle definitely doesn't look stretched like in that photo I linked to above. I continue to think a stretched saddle like that will cause severe health problems sooner or later. And I continue to think that if a brand-new Brooks saddle is not comfortable from day, it's the rider who needs to be broken in and not the saddle. If the saddle is not collapsed and you sit in the right position, there should be no pressure on the perineum except when you are thrown forward when hitting a bump.

As for leather treatments, these are protect the leather, not to soften it. Proofhide and beeswax are good. Neatsfoot oil and other leather softeners are bad.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 10, 2013, 11:34:36 AM
I noticed I'm sitting a bit forward on my Avatar type Specialised saddle...if I got backwards where I think I'm supposed to sit it can nip me.

The XTC is a tad long for me, which can be reason. But I'm comfy the way it is even though I probably should be sitting a little backwards to exactly put sitbones on cushion.

Saddles...a mystery!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: janeh on January 13, 2013, 02:57:17 PM
I have a Selle Italia Gel Flow saddle. I have tried a few including a Brooks B17. It has been pointed out in some of the Thorn booklets that Women's saddles can be too short and I think I agree with that. It is nice to be able to move backwards and I thought the Brooks women's was too short. The Selle Italia is not too bad.

Jane
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 13, 2013, 06:17:59 PM
Hi Janeh

I prefer a longer saddle too.

You can straddle the saddle too if you ride out of saddle, can't do that with the shorter ladies saddle on my fixed bike.
And a longer rail means more adjustment.

It's a man saddle on the XTC atm, but it's fine.

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 13, 2013, 11:28:59 PM
Brooks womens saddles go right back to the 1890s bike boom, when women took to the wheel. They were not developed for any physiological reasons, but rather to make life easier for women riding their drop-frame bikes with long skirts. A long saddle (better for spring and comfort) would snag their skirts, so the shorter nose saddle was developed.

If you like a hard saddle, or ride in skirts, get a womens model. Otherwise a 'mens' saddle will be more comfy.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 13, 2013, 11:59:49 PM
Brooks womens saddles go right back to the 1890s bike boom, when women took to the wheel. They were not developed for any physiological reasons, but rather to make life easier for women riding their drop-frame bikes with long skirts. A long saddle (better for spring and comfort) would snag their skirts, so the shorter nose saddle was developed.

If you like a hard saddle, or ride in skirts, get a womens model. Otherwise a 'mens' saddle will be more comfy.

This, while true, isn't the full story. There are some anatomical differences. Women have more distance between their ischial tuberosities (sit bones) so need a wider saddle than men. I can heartily recommend Brook's B73 as the most comfortable of the Brooks saddles straight out of the box. It's essentially a B67 with coil springs at all three corners, not as soft as it looks, not as unforgiving as a B17.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 14, 2013, 12:20:46 AM
Quote
It's a man saddle on the XTC atm...
No, it isn't....it's a Jawine saddle now!  ;) ;D
Quote
Women have more distance between their ischial tuberosities (sit bones) so need a wider saddle than men.
<nods> As a generality, with individual exceptions. My slim-hipped sister asks me to mention she finds "women's" saddles uncomfortably wide and prefers a narrower one designed/marketed for men. Same for two of my past girlfriends. Back angle/riding position can make a difference for all; the ischial tuberosities become effectively wider for many folks with rearward rotation. If riding in a full tuck, I can get by with a much narrower saddle then I can in my regular touring position.

All the best,

Dan. (...who figures outliers are the exception  ;))
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 14, 2013, 01:07:18 AM
There are some anatomical differences. Women have more distance between their ischial tuberosities (sit bones) so need a wider saddle than men.
Quite correct for many (but not all) women. However the Brooks S models are generally no wider than the mens model, only shorter. So they do not resolve this anatomic issue at all. Certainly women should get the B67 if they have wider hips. A female friend uses the rather lovely B18 and swears by its comfort, but it is not any shorter than a B17.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 14, 2013, 11:12:09 AM
I cycle a 143 racing saddle (eg medium for men, 130 is smallest) and a 153 ladies saddle (Charge Ladle) on the fixie.

Like Dan says depends on sitbones, on average women's are wider, but that doesn't mean you can't ride a men's saddle.

Both are fine but the specialized is comfier even though it's harder.

"If riding in a full tuck, I can get by with a much narrower saddle then I can in my regular touring position."

Hm that might be a factor, as I sit more forwards on the XTC and upright on fixie. Could try swapping saddles and compare if anybody is interested?
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 14, 2013, 02:16:19 PM
Hm that might be a factor, as I sit more forwards on the XTC and upright on fixie. Could try swapping saddles and compare if anybody is interested?

I'm keenly interested in ergonomics, so I'm hanging on your lips. We're generally told that the more horizontal your back, the narrower your saddle should be, the more upright you sit, the wider it should be.  But I have no personal experience, having always first fitted a known-comfortable saddle (or seat -- i rode on a Cheeko90 until it wore out) and then adapted -- in the case of my Trek, reengineered -- the bike around it.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: sdg_77 on January 18, 2013, 04:02:52 PM
Sat at home admiring the snow so I thought I would catch up on a few forum threads ...

Saddles do seem to be almost universally 'martmite' in that what one person likes another will find awful.

I had a Fizik seat as the original on my Cannondale Synapse 'Sunday Morning Bike'.  These were getting good reviews in the magazines, but after about 10 minutes I could tell it was not going to suit me.  Replaced it with a Specialized Avatar and find that really good - lots of long(ish) Sunday rides and a couple of centuries later, it still seems like a good choice.

The MTB has a Specialized Sonoma - pretty good, but the main reason for buying it was I thought it would be at least ok, which it is, and it was not too expensive so the inevitable prang won't be such a financial pain when it comes.  Of course,  that was a while ago and so far,  no falling off incidents.

My Sherpa has a B17 which was really just based on the low price being a chance to try one.  I had one when I was 15 but that was a looong time ago.  The B17 on the Thorn has been a pleasant surprise, it felt quite stiff at first and I expected a few problems with it not having a central dip, but after only 4 or 500km it became almost as comfortable as the Avatar and after a tour across the Hadrian's cycleway it has developed some obvious sit bone dents.  Just me guessing but I think the harder surface allows a little more airflow which stops any heat build up on long summer days on the road .... not that we had much of a summer last year.

Lastly - my old Claud Butler commuter has the ladies seat which came with my wife's Thorn,  she didn't hate it,  but was not keen either, she has the ladies Specialized Lithia on both her Sherpa and Sunday Morning bike.

So the upshot of all this ... when ever someone asks me about buying a new bike I usually suggest they allow some of the budget for a replacement saddle ;-)

Oh and for sit bone measurements,  I find aluminum foil on the stair carpet works well enough ... perhaps the banister just makes it easier to stand up without sliding off?


regards
sdg.


Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 18, 2013, 07:08:45 PM
Saddles do seem to be almost universally 'martmite' in that what one person likes another will find awful.

Any further attacks on Marmite, the greatest British invention, will result in you being put on punishment rations. :)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 18, 2013, 10:17:05 PM
Ratios of mostly Marmite of course  ;D

Going to try saddle swap next week unless snow holds as then I won't ride Dixie so can't do comparison.

Fixed is great for traction but mine doesn't have winter tires and she's 700c vs Thorn 26 inch...
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: sdg_77 on January 19, 2013, 10:21:50 AM
Marmite,  hmmm - it's not quite up there with the train and longitude is it ? ;-)

sdg.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 19, 2013, 06:30:50 PM
Marmite,  hmmm - it's not quite up there with the train and longitude is it ? ;-)
sdg.

Marmite is for the confident cyclist who is comfortable exploring the byways within reach of his bicycle. He doesn't need the train, or longitude. He doesn't need gadgets to tell him where he is, or a map; he looks at the countryside and he has his memory of how it looks in each season, at each crossroads.

Marmities, Unite! You have nothing to lose but the SUVs on our roads.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 19, 2013, 06:34:14 PM
hobbes where does your mind be  ;D ;D ::)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: rualexander on January 19, 2013, 08:09:37 PM
Vegemite is better though, :o
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 19, 2013, 08:33:38 PM
hobbes where does your mind be  ;D ;D ::)
Vegemite is better though, :o

See how disrespect to The Marmite opens the door to heresies?
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jimmer on January 19, 2013, 11:07:26 PM
Dear All,

The Marmite "ratio", that golden mean. A good depth spread in relation to bread thickness. If your mouth isn't numbed you've not got enough.

Everyone, go and try marmite and peanut butter on hot buttered toast, now.

Yours, James
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on January 20, 2013, 12:10:34 AM
Dear All,

The Marmite "ratio", that golden mean. A good depth spread in relation to bread thickness. If your mouth isn't numbed you've not got enough.

Everyone, go and try marmite and peanut butter on hot buttered toast, now.

Yours, James

Crunchy or smooth?
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 20, 2013, 12:12:12 AM
Quote
Everyone, go and try marmite and peanut butter on hot buttered toast, now.
Would if I could!

Hmm. French for "pot" or "vessel". That doesn't seem right with peanut butter and toast.
Quote
If your mouth isn't numbed you've not got enough.
Eek!

Ah! A spread. Not unlike Vegemite, it seems.

For those of us in the former Colonies who have never tasted Marmite...can you *describe* the taste of same? Is there anything similar to serve as a taste analog? I know Vegemite, and have tasted it. Not bad. Marmite, from what Wikipedia tell me, is similar but...saltier? It looks darker and more syrupy in the photos I've seen: http://britishfood.about.com/od/diningdrinkingtradition/a/marmitevvegemite.htm

And is there a preference for Original versus the XO formulation? And...is it carried whilst traveling, as I've read? I gather refrigeration is not required?

Best,

Dan. (...who is learning the proper terms for mudguards (fenders), tyres (tires), trousers (pants), and now...Marmite (Vegemite in mufti?)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jimmer on January 20, 2013, 01:04:26 AM
Dear All,

Crunchy of course, the full hippy Whole Earth skins 'n all formulation. You need something to get your teeth into.

The French came up with the container, but it required the "where there's muck, there's brass" genius of the British to recycle brewery sludge as food.

I've just dipped a spoon into the household jar to compile these tasting notes.

Lip tinglingly salty; the whiff of damp leather; intense, mouth filling, umami; the merest whisper of celery; more salt; all brought together in eugustory harmony by a yeasty base note and further salt.

The XO, Guinness and Champagne yeast variants are indistinguishable from the unimprovable original, even to my highly refined, Marmite blasted, pallet.

A touring take along? Absolutely. Great for spreading, in cheese sarnies, as stock, a hot drink and road repairs.

Yours, James
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: rualexander on January 20, 2013, 01:09:51 AM
Would if I could!

Hmm. French for "pot" or "vessel". That doesn't seem right with peanut butter and toast.Eek!

Ah! A spread. Not unlike Vegemite, it seems.

For those of us in the former Colonies who have never tasted Marmite...can you *describe* the taste of same? Is there anything similar to serve as a taste analog? I know Vegemite, and have tasted it. Not bad. Marmite, from what Wikipedia tell me, is similar but...saltier? It looks darker and more syrupy in the photos I've seen: http://britishfood.about.com/od/diningdrinkingtradition/a/marmitevvegemite.htm

And is there a preference for Original versus the XO formulation? And...is it carried whilst traveling, as I've read? I gather refrigeration is not required?

Best,

Dan. (...who is learning the proper terms for mudguards (fenders), tyres (tires), trousers (pants), and now...Marmite (Vegemite in mufti?)

Yes Marmite is more of a syrupy consistency than Vegemite, and whilst the fairly recent squeezy plastic jars are ok for taking on tour, they can suffer from leakage and result in a bit of a sticky situation.
I don't think there is much difference in the saltiness of them both, if anything I would say Vegemite has a stronger taste overall.
For the cycle tourist, Vegemite comes in tubes (http://www.sanza.co.uk/Kraft_Vegemite_Travel_Tube.asp) although quite hard to find in this format outside of Australia and NZ. Very handy though for squeezing directly onto crackers, oatcakes, toast, etc., without needing to use a knife.

Dan,
You can order your supplies stateside from http://www.aussieproducts.com/prodinfo.asp?number=ROVE14 or http://www.britishdelights.com/marmite.htm although at those prices I suspect you might just stick to peanut butter and jelly!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 20, 2013, 01:32:58 AM
i just asked the wife had we any marmite she informed me i tried it once nearly died with the taste gave it a drop kick over the garden wall into the park never to be seen or tasted again.
 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 20, 2013, 02:17:32 AM
The novelist Patricia Sierra was introduced to Marmite on my discussion group (http://www.goodreads.com/group/comment_search/46791-robust?utf8=?&q=marmite&commit=search+posts&topics_only=false) ROBUST (http://rob.tiongson@gmail.com), and is now an addict, who has a standing order in for 90 American dollars' worth every month. I think that qualifies as an addiction!

Almost time for my midnight snack. I'll have toast'n'marmie, not that you've reminded me of it.

Andre Jute
Marmite puts the hair on your chest

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 20, 2013, 02:20:04 AM
Gentlepersons, All:

I do so thank you for amplifying my knowledge of things British and thanks to your efforts, I seem to be coming along in my use of the King's English.

Truly, the Forum's greatest resource is its collective membership.

Thanks to Jimmer's firsthand description, I now have a good idea what Marmite tastes like. Thanks to Rual, I know where to find it, and thanks to jags, I...well, I know to be cautious in my expectations when trying it the first time. Andre -- who can capably sell anything, has tipped the scales with his tale of Marmite-addicted 'Merkins.

I must pick up a tube! For science!

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 20, 2013, 02:32:16 AM
Dan its a JAR not a tube my god  ;D ;D ;D
SO Andre was i going about this all wrong should it have been spread on toast,
damn there was i eating it out of the JAR. :-[
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 20, 2013, 02:38:54 AM
Dan its a JAR not a tube my god  ;D ;D ;D
SO Andre was i going about this all wrong should it have been spread on toast,
damn there was i eating it out of the JAR. :-[

With a spoon? No man, that's pure salt in the wounds of lashed martyrs. To start with you want a thin spread on thick toast with butter or your fave lowcholnocal spread.

The purpose of Marmite, besides separating the men from the boys, is to bring out the flavour of other foods. For instance, banana and Marmite makes a brilliant sandwich filling.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 20, 2013, 02:44:22 AM
Has anyone tried Australian Violet Crumbles? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_Crumble ) I was addicted for a time when several local stores carried them, along with Arnott's biscuits ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnott's_Biscuits_Holdings ), also from Down Under. Sadly, my stores no longer carry them. Withdrawal was prolonged and terrible.

Do you have V8 Juice in the UK or EU? It is a canned drink (small cans, that make terrific compact meths stoves) popular on this side of the Pond. The flavor is largely tomato juice, but with a variety of other vegetables mixed in as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_(beverage)

Marmite and bananas as sandwich filling?...Andre! This is torture, neat. I *must* get some....

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 20, 2013, 04:05:53 AM
The nearest thing to a Violet Crumble over here is a Crunchie. But thanks for the idea. I can get Australian Capricorn Liquorice locally at Mr Simms Olde Sweet Shoppe, and I wouldn't be surprised if they can also source Violet Crumble.

Australians have a knack for sweet (candy) names. Lollygobble Blissbombs, anyone?

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 20, 2013, 05:09:08 AM
Ratios of mostly Marmite
Vegemite

http://www.about-australia-shop.com/vegemite.htm


 ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 20, 2013, 07:22:56 AM
Quote
Vegemite http://www.about-australia-shop.com/vegemite.htm
Thanks for that, Pete!

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jimmer on January 20, 2013, 11:02:14 AM
Vegemite but Mar definitely will
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 20, 2013, 02:23:18 PM
yiss are all gone mental  ???
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 20, 2013, 06:44:08 PM
yiss are all gone mental  ???

Nah, we started out mental -- haven't you noticed how much money we spend on bikes? -- but you just didn't notice because you're mental the same way.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 20, 2013, 07:54:49 PM
 ;D ;D ;D true enough.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jimmer on January 21, 2013, 12:35:41 AM
You may all by now have had your fill of the sticky brown stuff (reminds me of a disarmingly innocent joke) but that there Hobbes made me think of it. All that was then required was the cocked finger and come hither look of she who must be unquestioningly obeyed, that siren Science, to lead me all the way into the murky recesses of his tortured imagination.

I have had a go at bananas and marmite.

I felt I owed it to the collective to call him on this one. You can't let an assertion like "ooh, Marmite and bananas go great together" go untested.

First up, I'll not be deriving any inviolable laws of Science from what is a test of subjective taste. After all some people (me and my 5 year old daughter included) love faggots & peas.

Forgified with a bottle of Rioja's worth of Dutch, I lathered one of the unripe bananas I got earlier today. It tasted of greasy steel. Surprisingly, not too bad.

I'll leave one of the banana's to ripen, try with that and report back.

On balance, however, that which did for Elvis is to be preferred. We're almost coming full circle with peanut butter and banana sandwiches fried crispy in butter.

Yours, James

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 21, 2013, 02:03:07 AM
What, perchance, are faggots? Because in my neck of the woods the term refers to a stick of wood - also used as a euphemism for the gay laddies.  ???
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2013, 03:45:37 AM
Quote
What, perchance, are faggots?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food) say:
Quote
Faggots are a traditional dish in the UK,[1][2] especially South and Mid Wales and the Midlands of England.[3][4][5] It is made from meat off-cuts and offal, especially pork.[3] A faggot is traditionally made from pig's heart, liver and fatty belly meat or bacon minced together, with herbs added for flavouring and sometimes bread crumbs.

Quote
I have had a go at bananas and marmite.

I felt I owed it to the collective to call him on this one. You can't let an assertion like "ooh, Marmite and bananas go great together" go untested.
Brave man, Jimmer. For Science! indeed <bows, doffs hat in respect>
Quote
I lathered one of the unripe bananas I got earlier today. It tasted of greasy steel. Surprisingly, not too bad.
"Greasy steel"? Eh, I've had worse. Sounds worth keeping.
Quote
I'll leave one of the banana's to ripen, try with that and report back.
Medal material, Man. For Science. Respect. Word.

Best,

Dan. (....expanding his knowledge of British cuisine daily)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 21, 2013, 06:50:12 AM
I have had a go at bananas and marmite ... I lathered one of the unripe bananas I got earlier today. It tasted of greasy steel. Surprisingly, not too bad.

Man, you're mad, bad and dangerous to know. That's not how you eat banana and Marmite. You make a sandwich, preferably with brown bread, you spread a very slight smear of Marmite on the buttered bread, nowhere near as thickly as you spread the butter, just a little on the tip of a knife, then add sliced ripe banana, then eat that.

If you're going to eat Marmite, which is expensive stuff, by the teaspoonful, you may as well eat salt by the teaspoonful.

What am I going to do with you, James?

Andre Jute

PS You're not supposed to give the under-16s Marmite either: it is widely known as an addictive substance.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2013, 07:04:55 AM
Quote
You're not supposed to give the under-16s Marmite either: it is widely known as an addictive substance.
:o Is that how Patricia Sierra started?

And...what price paid by poor James? <harumph!> Stuff should come with warning labels.

Best,

Dan. (...who's more'n a little skeert of the stuff, now)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 21, 2013, 08:10:53 AM
:o Is that how Patricia Sierra started?

No, Marmite is what redeemed Sierra. If you've read the entries at the link I supplied above already, you might be interested in an extract from my Rolling Stones profile of Sierra's early years as a serial killer and assassin for the CIA, at http://cookiesbookclub.blogspot.ie/2011/06/jd-plot-to-steal-jd-salingers.html (read down to "Biographical Information". After that, no wonder she became addicted to Marmite the first time I introduced her to it.

And...what price paid by poor James? <harumph!> Stuff should come with warning labels.

It does. It says, "Made with Yeast". Yeast is a well-known addictive substance, in bread for instance, and in beer. How many people do you know who can't live without bread?

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 21, 2013, 11:38:10 AM
One way to derail a thread: Slag off Marmite  ;D

Faggots sound nice BTW, I was thinking of a musical instrument when I heard the word, there ya go..

(fagot = Dutch for bassoon)

http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg (http://cdn.head-fi.org/7/76/76d31508_c851d40e_Derail_1.jpeg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on January 21, 2013, 12:32:55 PM
At the great risk of returning this thread around back in it's original direction  ::)
May I solicit some views on my thoughts re a leather saddle?
Brooks of course. But I have a mental problem with leather being out in all sorts of nasty weather when I am away on a long long tour.
I know it will be "proofed" and I know they sell nice wee care kits but I still think it will suffer from snow ice and hot sun variations.

Someone put me right on this please

Matt
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 21, 2013, 02:00:47 PM
The old and trusted "Tesco Bag" special bike item offers good protection against damage...cover it up every time you're not on it.

Had an old beater students bike with a decade old brooks on it, still working fine and didn't get any maintenance whatsoever. Though of course maintenance and protection is the way to go :)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2013, 05:29:53 PM
Quote
At the great risk of returning this thread around back in it's original direction...
Here ya go, Matt; Proofide and a cover worked for me:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3812.0
Others have their say in this topic, as well. I'm very happy with the last iteration and never know it is there until needed.

All the best,

Dan. (...who's got it covered)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 21, 2013, 09:10:44 PM
May I solicit some views on my thoughts re a leather saddle?
Brooks of course. But I have a mental problem with leather being out in all sorts of nasty weather when I am away on a long long tour.
I know it will be "proofed" and I know they sell nice wee care kits but I still think it will suffer from snow ice and hot sun variations.

Someone put me right on this please

First of all, I agree with Jawine, but more so. I grew up in Africa, where all the bicycles had Brooks saddles, where the sun and the rain were fierce, where I never saw a saddle cover (what's that? what sort of a rooinek* newbie would want such a thing?), and where Brooks saddles routinely outlived their owners.

For heavens sake, it's a great big piece of horsy leather. The hunt and suchlike would never dream of covering up their saddles and other leather gear.

All that said, I have a Brooks cover and use it, not because I fear riding the B73 wet would ruin it -- that's what the tensioning screw is for! -- but because I don't want to have to deal with mold, which once started can be very persistent in leather.

A couple of other points that may not be obvious.

You may decide to soak your saddle in neatsfoot oil to break it in. I did, as related elsewhere on this forum. Whether you soak it in neatsfoot or motor oil or your wife's virgin olive oil or whatever you fancy, or just rub on Proofide, don't for a moment believe the protection of that little soaking goes deeper than the epidermis. My B73 (coil spring at each corner) was pretty comfortable out of the box, so I soaked in neatsfoot oil very briefly. But I ride in street clothes and my keychain has caught the saddle a couple of times, and I was amazed to see in the light scratch how little the neatsfoot and Proofide once a year since then have penetrated.

I don't think it matters what you use to weatherproof your saddle, or even whether you use anything at all. Most of those saddles that lasted forever in Africa got zero maintenance, no wax whatsoever, and they mostly looked good with it. A good leather saddle has to be really, really, really abused before it even looks tacky, and appalling cruelties have to be performed on it before it stops functioning. (Chalo Colina, the famous Boeing machinist and bike mechanic in Austin, Texas -- he's the guy who designed the famous 48 spoke Rohloff wheel and drilling scheme --, weighs 350 pounds and up. There's a photo on the net somewhere of an extension he's welded onto the stretching bolt... The leather of the saddle looks damned good.) And when it does stop functioning, it is more often because metal parts rusted through than because the leather was too stretched or torn to work any longer. Check what Brooks offers as spares: it's mainly the metal bits. All this worry about the leather is misdirected; we should worry about crappy Italian chrome plating or painting on our Brooks's metal bits, not the leather, which Italians do a great deal better than they do metal preparation.

A pristine Brooks saddle with zero discolouration (and that counts double if it is honey, which stains if you glance at it) and zero scratches is the mark of a poser.

A Brooks saddle is a tool, meant to be used, not jewellery.

Andre Jute

*rooinek = literally "red neck", sunburned, shorthand for a Brit just off the ship, who'd never seen sunshine like this before
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2013, 09:43:14 PM
Quote
I don't think it matters what you use to weatherproof your saddle, or even whether you use anything at all
So...Marmite 'stead of Proofide, Andre?

Ducking and running,

Dan. (...bringing threads together, one reference at a time)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 21, 2013, 10:30:38 PM
Vegemite is useful for things other than buttering toast.

Painted VW, Silverton, NSW (http://flickrhivemind.net/Tags/silverton,vw/Interesting)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: sdg_77 on January 23, 2013, 04:30:29 PM
I have learned my lesson and will never again mention any yeast derived edible paste products  :-[

sdg.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 23, 2013, 04:58:29 PM
Quote
I have learned my lesson and will never again mention any yeast derived edible paste products
No worries! It provided a pleasant diversion with a lot of fun and we got back to the saddle question in-between. Dunno how I'd ever split it into a half-muppet thread with any remaining integrity to the original , so best to let it stand intact. As R.A. Lafferty said, "The law of levity is allowed to supersede the law of gravity".

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 23, 2013, 05:20:36 PM
Maybe we need Marmite saddle covers? I know they got all kinds of merchandise  ;D

Still snow/ice here, will do saddle swap once I can get out on the fixie again (compare specialised avatar 143 vs charge ladle 158)

Fixed is great for traction but I don't have 700c winter tires...
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 23, 2013, 07:17:43 PM
are you getting much snow up there jawine.
i'm hoping to get a spin in tomorrow.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 23, 2013, 09:16:18 PM
As R.A. Lafferty said, "The law of levity is allowed to supersede the law of gravity".

Bit difficult trying for gravitas on a bicycle. -- Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 23, 2013, 10:37:00 PM
are you getting much snow up there jawine.
i'm hoping to get a spin in tomorrow.

In more ways than one??  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 23, 2013, 10:55:26 PM
Here in glorious West Cork it is currently not too unpleasant outside at nearly 10pm, above freezing anyway, all the way up to 2 degrees C, not slippery underfoot. Same tomorrow. Not exactly inviting but better than frost and black ice on the roads. People who live in places with really miserable weather will probably think they died and went to heaven.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: revelo on January 30, 2013, 04:34:28 AM
Looks like this thread has gone off-topic, but I posted before so I want to follow-up. Below is my saddle after 5000 miles and about 675 hours in the saddle (at about 8 miles/hour average) in mostly warm weather (hence lots of perspiration against the saddle). Slight indentation in front of the flange (primarily on the left side which is the side shown in the photo) but certainly not a complete collapse like those "hammock" saddles. I ride in mostly dry weather. I think it highly inadvisable to let a saddle get soaking wet, such as by leaving it uncovered at night when there is rain. If it does get soaking wet, then it should be allowed to dry slowly. Wet leather is soft and will tear and stretch if subjected to stress.

I've walked through 7 pairs of my current model leather boots. When kept dry, these boots will last over 3000 miles and it is the soles and stitching which fails at this point rather than the leather. Whereas when allowed to get wet, the leather will start to tear and crack at the side, near where the sole flexes, after about 1000 miles. Water softens leather the same way it softens your skin (which is simply living leather). If you want leather to last, especially leather that is put under severe stress, don't allow it to get soaked. Small amounts of moisture are not a problem.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on January 30, 2013, 10:30:13 AM
Now that's a well worn in saddle :)

If the snow/ice stays away, will do big saddle swap next week, swap XTC one over on the Fixie and see how they feel.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: sdg_77 on January 30, 2013, 10:56:03 AM
My B17 is looking remakably like Revelo's, although after not quite that distance.  Sit bone dents appearing, one a little more obvious than the other. I used proofhide on the top and underside when it was new and a couple of follow ups just on the top since then.

I'm following the same regime of keeping the saddle out of the rain and using a cover when the bike is parked in the open.

sdg.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on January 31, 2013, 12:41:36 AM
Some good jeux de mot here ... who was it said that levity is the soul of wit?

On saddles and waterproofing:  My local shop didn't have proofide in stock when I bought my B17 a year ago, so I used a product I had bought from a supplier in your neighbourhood, Dan (Idaho):  Obenauf's leathercare. (Their HD paste and leather oil both have a high percentage of beeswax.) There are different products of differing viscosities, and for my B17, I used the "Leather Oil" variant, about a 30-weight grade.  It's worked very well. I use it on my leather jackets, etc., and the HD paste on my hiking boots. No hesitation in recommending Obenauf's products.  (HD = heavy-duty, not Harley-Davidson, just to put your minds at ease.)

I guess I could have used Marmite, thinned out with varsol or something similar, but...

Cheers,

John
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 31, 2013, 12:49:22 AM
i was just about to ask do you ride a harley. 8)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on January 31, 2013, 01:07:53 AM
No...but I have an ex-competition 1957 AJS scrambler, and my longer-distance m/c, with lights & a horn and Other Modern Things is a mid-80's BMW airhead.  It's taken me Ottawa-to-Halifax and back a couple of times, and to the Carolinas and back.  Lovely bike. (But I fear we're off-topic, only tenuously linked to Brooks saddles by Obenaufs' products, which I use on my m/c gear.)

J.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on January 31, 2013, 01:28:24 AM
ah don't worry about being off topic stick a photo of that bike up good man  ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on January 31, 2013, 02:48:02 AM
Hi John!

[Urrrrrrrrrgh! Pulling things more firmly back on-topic, thanks to your Obenauf's post... ;)]

You're absolutely correct; Obenauf's enjoys a fine reputation here'bouts for protecting leather and leather saddles and is also endorsed and sold by Rivendell for that very use. For those interested in giving it a try, here's the link to Obenauf's for the paste: https://www.obenaufs.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=20&product_id=30

Also popular with some is Sno-Seal ( http://www.atsko.com/products/waterproofing/sno-seal.html ). I prefer this for my Danner Gore-Tex lined boots, since it doesn't soak through like oil to contaminate the Gore-Tex (avoids causing leaks through altered surface tension at the liner) yet feeds the leather and protects it from rain/wet and snow. I usually do 1-2 boot treatments a year and it hasn't stretched my Mountain Light IIs ( http://www.danner.com/boots/mountain-lighttm-ii-mens-womens-hiking-boots.html ) in all the time I've used them. It holds up remarkably well against ice scuffs on crusty snow, and nicely restores the appearance afterwards. I prefer to warm the boots to room temperature, apply generously, and then apply heat from a hair dryer at arm's length as I massage the Sno-Seal into the leather with my fingers. I heat the Sno-Seal just enough to keep it shiny; if the gloss flattens out, it is too hot and needs either less heat or more Sno-Seal. the idea is to warm it and the leather just enough for the Sno-Seal to penetrate but never so much heat as to damage the leather. When the leather appears to have soaked up its fill, I let the Sno-Seal cool and become gelid before polishing off the excess. Friends who have used this method to Sno-Seal their Brooks saddles have been happy.

When I Proofide my Brooks saddles, it is always at room temperature and I place them near a sunny window After to accomplish the same purpose to help it penetrate the surface.

I've known several people to use mink oil, all with bad results. I'm not sure what caused the problem, but the leather seemed unusually dry afterward. It had the same effect on my father's favorite hiking boots, so we have forsworn it; there's probably others who have had great success.

'Never heard a single bad word said about Obenauf's results on Brooks saddles.

I've always thought there is something wonderful in the success people have had with different leather treatments on Brooks saddles. Obviously, no one solution is right for all, and everyone has their favorite. If you ever ride with another Brooks user and run out of conversation, bringing up this topic is fodder for another hour or so of talk.

All the best,

Dan. (...who thinks it either doesn't matter or matters entirely on believing it -- whatever "it" is -- works.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on January 31, 2013, 09:16:47 AM
HD ? I thought you meant it was high definition saddle oil - good for keepin' ya buns tight ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on January 31, 2013, 11:25:15 AM
Brooks made plenty of saddles for motorbikes. My late brother Johnny had the original Brooks saddle on a Brough Superior, back when it was just a secondhand bike that only people with machining skills and access to a lathe could even consider buying, before it became an icon of a lost culture.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on January 31, 2013, 11:16:20 PM
Titanium rails???
What are they all about?
Will I go faster?
Will I save 0.0009 gm?

Honest question since I am still considering a used Brooks from eBay.
( against repeated sound advice to the contrary from my mentors here )
  ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on February 01, 2013, 12:14:13 AM
Quote
Titanium rails???
What are they all about?
Well, Matt...

Brooks has had some incidence of breakage with titanium rails in the past , just as they have with chrome-plated ones. The black powdercoated/enameled ones seem to not suffer the same rates of breakage by avoiding the hydrogen embrittlement that can occur as a byproduct of the plating process.
Quote
Will I go faster?
Titanium is lighter than steel -- about 110g/3.88oz when it is used in saddle rails and cantle plates -- not in a place where it will do a lot of good insofar as making you much faster.

According to Brooks' website, the B.17 Titanium weighs 410g and costs €225.00.  The B.17 Standard weighs 520g and costs €90.00.

That means you are spending €135 (@ new, direct-from-factory retail prices) to save 110g (not quite a quarter-pound). That's a lot of money; the same amount of money would purchase a spare set of lighter tires and tubes to go with them for a difference that could be felt immediately.

On the other hand, Ti has a certain caché and won't rust or corrode or chip and flake off. The Ti model B.17 also gets hand-hammered, larger-diameter copper rivets and looks real purty in a differ'nt sorta way than the usual Brooksian offerings (thought the B.17 Special can also make a claim for the same rivets at a reduced price compared to the Ti model; I've rolled my own Specials out of Standards by sending for the copper rivets and hammering them in myself with fine results).

On some models, the Ti rails also net you (or used to) an allenhead tensioning bolt, so you don't have to fiddle with the little Brooks open-end wrench and can get to the task of adjusting the tension more directly, which could be a Bad Thing if it leads to too-frequent tensioning or outright over-tensioning and resultant stretch. A Good Thing in terms of convenience when it is needed. A few old hands (me among them) feel Brooks deliberately made tensioning a bit of a hassle to discourage users from engaging in the practice frivolously.

Some users also feel the Titanium rails provide a springier, more resilient ride than do the steel ones. This seems likely, given the properties of titanium.

I think it is very much a matter of choice, and when it comes to pretty bike baubles...well, no one is immune to their siren call.

All the best,

Dan. (...who has wrecked a few shiploads of dollars on unseen reefs while responding to the siren calls of pretty bike baubles)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on February 01, 2013, 05:22:05 AM
Titanium rails???
What are they all about?
Will I go faster?
Will I save 0.0009 gm?

Yes lighter weight (by more like a couple of hundred grams), and more beneficially, greater spring in the saddle rails.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on February 01, 2013, 10:43:57 AM
Bike baubles hehe  ;D

I've seen bike flowers been sold on chain reaction...urgh! Rather baubles on the saddle rail then.

And still it looks like the saddle on my fixie though getting rave reviews isn't quite my thing. Shall do big test next week, the stiffer frame on the fixie of course means you get more direct knocks but yet...

Don't think I'll ever be ready for padding level 1 on the road  ;D
(a specialised avatar is 3...)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: martinf on February 02, 2013, 02:48:45 PM
Titanium rails???
What are they all about?
Will I go faster?
Will I save 0.0009 gm?

Saving weight. I have a Brooks B17 Ti on my Brompton, which I want as light as possible for when I have to carry it. Ti rails are also supposed to be springier, but I haven't noticed much difference.

I got the steel version for my Raven Tour, IMO not worth bothering trying to save weight on a heavy tourer.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on February 03, 2013, 12:57:08 AM
Jags, thanks for your interest; and others, in advance for your tolerance.  Foto of my airhead below on a sunny afternoon high above the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, en route to the Carolinas, Sept 2011.  Barely linked to this thread, but beneath the sheepskin on the saddle, there's some Obenaufs on the saddle too.

Andre, wow! -- Brooks on a Brough!  Not just alliterative; quality in association.

J,

(http://)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on February 03, 2013, 01:19:17 AM
And really on saddles this time (got a bit sidetracked by the airhead foto, it being serious winter here 'n' all...):  The cost of titanium seems to make the B17 Ti a bit pricey.  I have a nice brown & copper "B17 Premium" which I bought for about $150 + tax at my LBS a year ago, so that's about midway between the two prices of a Standard and the Ti.  Bought it 'cos I like dark brown & copper (all this stuff is pretty subjective, no?) and best of all, it's been wonderfully comfy, no troubles at all.

Seems we have a few options for preservative, too, beyond Proofide.  Dan's positive experience with Sno-Seal fits with others' experience in these parts, though I haven't used it myself.

I did have a chance to try out the Brooks' rain cover on my Rhine/Danube safari this past fall -- a couple of times, it rained overnight when I hadn't pitched my tarp, and the cover kept the saddle nice & dry. My bike was shielded by trees from the worst of the rain.  At other times, I used the rain cover at night even under the tarp--the air was very moist, and I preferred not to expose the leather.  Again, the Brooks' cover did the necessary.

J.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on February 03, 2013, 01:27:05 AM
Jags, thanks for your interest; and others, in advance for your tolerance.  Foto of my airhead below on a sunny afternoon high above the Shenandoah Valley in Virginia, en route to the Carolinas, Sept 2011.  Barely linked to this thread, but beneath the sheepskin on the saddle, there's some Obenaufs on the saddle too.

Andre, wow! -- Brooks on a Brough!  Not just alliterative; quality in association.

J,

(http://)
thanks john beautiful bike. ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on February 03, 2013, 01:35:55 AM
Quote
...thanks for your interest; and others, in advance for your tolerance
<cough> A most beautiful bike, and it has two wheels. Squint hard, and it looks just like a Thorn when I have my glasses off.  ;) :D My father's old Indian and Cleveland moto-cycles (as they were properly called and trademarked at the time) have been referenced in the Forum as well: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg23897#msg23897

NuuuuuuuuuuudgeBackontopic: I love my honey-brown, hand copper-riveted B.17 Champion Special as well, even though I know the chrome-plated rails will likely someday part company as they did on the earlier chromies I've owned. Given my stellar success in re-riveting the leather top-caps, I'll just swap in a new rear flange-and-rail set when the inevitable occurs and transfer the leather bit and nosepiece. Meanwhile, it sure looks pretty.

I've also had good luck with a saddle cover, though it took me a goodwhile to select something close, modify it, then figure out my preferred means for storing it wet or dry, but always at the ready and loss-proof: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3812.msg16445#msg16445

All the best,

Dan. (...who thinks its all good!)

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 03, 2013, 02:12:46 PM
What a beautiful bike, John, what a beautiful backdrop. I don't think too much tolerance is required. A few months ago I spent an hour on a site I stumbled across while searching for a white Norton F1 originally sold in Germany that my protege Dakota Franklin (http://Dakota Franklin) [offboard advertising!] wanted to put in one of her books. The site was about early motorbikes in the TT. They were so spindly, they looked like pedal bikes with little motors added. It became quite clear to me that there is a common root between bicycles and motorbikes, not all that far into the past either. In the same line of thinking, it doesn't surprise me to find Brooks as a maker of saddles for both motorbikes and bicycles. There was a time, probably until after WW2 when the proper posture on the dominant types of both would have been very similar (what we now see as an upright Dutch posture on the bike).

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on February 04, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
The manfriend has quite a few books and magazines of bikes from the past...and indeed it looks like at some point somebody went "hey, we can fit an engine on that!".

The rest is history as they say ;D

In saddles new, Selle Italia Ladies Gelflow gets good reviews for ladies on LFGSS.

London Fixed Gear. Great forum for bike building enthusiasts. Bit younger crowd and expect some slagging.

Apparently according to there tourers all have pre-independance war troopers beards, knee length socks and SPD sandals.
I wouldn't know...too young for a beard  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 04, 2013, 11:26:52 AM
So cold this morning, I'm happy to be a bearded chappie, though pre-war is quite a bit before my time. Maybe they're referring to the Vietnam war, or even the invasion of Grenada...

Andre Jute
In the scope of History, what's a few decades this way or that? Everything!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on February 04, 2013, 12:35:14 PM
Hipsters have beards too anyway  ;D

They're not Luddites for refusing Crabon and using steel steeds, but cool :P

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on February 04, 2013, 09:25:57 PM
Hi All!

Has anyone here tried the Chinese- or Indian-made Brooks copies?

I've seen a few, held a few, but have never tried one firsthand to see how they rode, either initially or over time. Some examples I have seen had rather bright colors (apple green for example, or flame red), but unlike Brooks saddles, which are dyed, these appeared to have been painted -- it was certainly a surface treatment. The black colors seemed the most traditional in terms of surface treatment. I did see one (it looked to be of the same sort) that was worn and on a parked bike. It appeared the dye was indeed a surface paint of some sort and it had worn to plain leather under the rider's use.

David Davies over at the Tandems Pilots & Stokers interest group on Facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/103102263066556/499171000126345/?notif_t=group_activity ) mentioned one today and it got the memories flowing.

They seem to be proliferating to a degree as less-expensive alternatives, offered by any number of vendors who are spec'ing them in preferred trim options and private labels, and a few are now showing up occasionally on eBay.

Just curious, though Brooks' B.17 has always worked well for me.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on February 04, 2013, 10:15:02 PM
my brooks is getting uncomfortable for some reason or it could be my assos  padding thats the problem.i might just try my fizik alanti saddle on the sherpa .
wouldn't saddles give you a pain in the ass trying to get the perfect one. ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 04, 2013, 10:49:36 PM
Has anyone here tried the Chinese- or Indian-made Brooks copies?

I've seen a few, held a few, but have never tried one firsthand to see how they rode, either initially or over time.

I was in my LBS's storeroom a few years ago searching for magic chain links, when I saw one and picked it up. It was huge, possibly bigger than the Brooks B190. The springs and frame were crudely made and crudely painted. The leather was dark tan and much, much thicker than on my pretty sturdy B73. It looked to me like the leather would outlive the metal fittings. It was pretty hard, and the vent holes were not chamfered. The owner, an old chappie, came in looking for something for the bike he was working on. "At the rate you ride, you'd take too long to break it in," he said. "I can order you a Brooks." I wasn't so sure I could break it in at all, it appeared that hard. It was about a third the price of a decent Brooks. Before I bought it even at that price, I remember thinking at the time, I would want to source replacements for the crude fittings, starting with the triple rail to seatpost fitting which is nasty pressed metal even in the official Brooks version and in this Indian version was beyond nasty, definitely dangerous to your skin and clothes.

That one must have been sold because about six months later it was gone from the storeroom. I never saw it again; presumably it sits on a hardly-used bike in a garage somewhere, the fate of so many bikes. There aren't all that many bikes around here on which such a saddle would look right.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on February 07, 2013, 04:56:51 AM
Sundry observations:

Thanks, all, for your nice remarks about my airhead.  Hans is tucked away for the winter, but when spring eventually returns, will be pleased to learn of your kind thoughts.

Brooks saddles and African climate/weather?  Like you, Andre, I've seen many old leather saddles with years of maturing in the African dust & sun.  But not so many on the humid lowlands beside the ocean--the high dry plateau country seems kinder, 'cos even when it rains there, everything dries out shorty afterwards.  Others' experience?  Maybe Dave Conroy will have some comments from his Africa trek--or maybe it won't be long enough for the Brooks B17 to mature?  Or maybe he dosed it with Marmite in UK, and not even a high-veld thunderstorm could dampen the leather?

Shoulda read the early posts on this thread--I first read just the most recent posts thought it was about saddles & only today did I learn it was about Marmite.  Well, I dunno about this: I think the emphasis may be misplaced, & that the Unsung Hero of the History of Foggie Olde is really bread and dripping.  Took a while to extricate myself from national mythologies, but in due course I reached my own conclusions about British products of variable viscosity.  I decided that there was, somewhere in that green & pleasant land, a supply of a "base" product (the analogy would be a paint base, for tinting):  in its most viscous form, it's Marmite; barely thinned out it's axle grease; next level of runniness is Castrol 40; very runny indeed, and quite useful, is Dettol.  Not sure what the gaseous variant might be; not sure I really want to find out...

More seriously, Dan and Jawine, your summary of the complexity of sizing saddles to bottoms is, well, fitting.  Who knew??  I sure didn't.  When the foam rubber in the OEM saddle on my Eclipse lost its firmness, I just bought myself a Brooks B17, fiddled and fussed for a few days 'til I got the fore-and-aft tilt right (nose barely elevated from the  horizontal) and the forward adjustment right (maximum forward) and it's been wonderfully comfortable.  Your exchange on fit and the factors involved is illuminating--well done!  Jim Powers' similar piece from 2011 (I believe it was) in "Bike Touring News" is the only comparable piece that I've seen.

Cheers,

J.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on February 07, 2013, 05:23:23 AM
Nice summation, John; you have a bright future here with us! :D

All the best,

Dan. (...who wonders if Marmite is the bacon of spreads, making anything it is on "better?")
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on February 07, 2013, 12:06:18 PM
Glad it's a good and helpful thread :)

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 07, 2013, 05:49:36 PM
In South Africa we lived for a while at George on the coast, a place with bits of rainforest because it rains that often. Everyone drove a Rover, because the export models had aluminium panels... Everything that was natural got mouldy; the fruit trees in our orchard were forbidden to us boys because the wood was almost universally too rotten to carry even our light weight. I'm afraid I wasn't into cycling at the time, but into helping Gary Player, who was then the pro at the golf club, turn me into a scratch golfer, so I can't remember what people did with Brooks saddles to protect them from the mold. I imagine they used beeswax or neatsfoot oil, and liberal applications of it, because in those parts everyone knew that once the mold took hold, you couldn't ever again clear it out completely. Plastics were highly prized...

But John is right. I grew up mainly in a desert called the Little Karroo, extremely cold, extremely hot, all in the same day, and dry as a bone, and later lived on the savannah which contains Johannesburg where hard subtropical daily storms soon burned off , and my house at Cape Town was the southernmost house in Africa, where the Atlantic and Indian Oceans meet, lots of refreshing hurricanes, so mold didn't get started.

Andre Jute

PS "Hans" -- just right for an airhead, a friendly motorcycle...
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on February 07, 2013, 07:29:57 PM
Quote
I grew up mainly in a desert called the Little Karroo...
Andre,

When my father was a boy, he corresponded with other kids living there (they met as enthusiasts of the same youth-oriented Western/cowboy magazine) and this writer sent b/w photos and waxed eloquent over the spectacular nature of the Karoo's sunsets. Apropos nothing except you happened to live there for a time...d'you remember the sunsets as well?

Regarding a tendency for leather and Brooks' to mold and mildew in some regions, this was an endemic problem when I lived briefly in the American South (Mississippi). Condensing humidity was a daily given, and some Brooks saddles I examined in a shop there were green with mold on their undersides. Standard procedure prior to a sale was to use a butter knife to scrape off as much of the growth as possible, then wipe-down the rest with white vinegar before handing it over to the customer. It was Understood as a Universal: Leather molds/mildews in such climes. My last saddle came directly from Brooks smelling nicely of leather. The ones in Mississippi smelled like salads...and got worse from there.
Quote
...once the mold took hold, you couldn't ever again clear it out completely.
No truer words than that.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on February 07, 2013, 07:53:45 PM
Hi All!

As noted here, http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5839.msg33041;topicseen#msg33041 Brooks will issue a vegan saddle call the Cambium at the end of 2013. It is made with no leather, employing natural rubber and organic cotton instead. They claim it will offer much of the flexibility of leather, "...offering the legendary Brooks 'hammock' comfort, quality and performance with the ease of a modern saddle, i.e., waterproof, maintenance-free and ready to ride." They remind readers that "...Brooks has used a variety of materials with which to construct their famous saddles. Not only cows, but also horses and even crocodiles have been used, but not only natural hides".

For many decades, my father's 1938 Hercules coaster-brake bike sported a Brooks-style sprung saddle with a cover made of rubber. As a child, we often wondered if it was indeed a Brooks, but by then the surface had pebbled to the point where we could no longer discern a logo. By the time I was 8, large chunks had fallen out and it had to be replaced with something more contemporary. Given its infrequent use,  that was a mattress saddle, covered with premium vinyl over padding over a steel base suspended on two large springs at the rear. I manage a very hilly 67mi/108km on it one day and found myself wishing very hard for the aged rubber MaybeBrooks.

Best,

Dan. (...who is still shaking his head over a cotton-and rubber Brooks, but hopes it will be okay)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on February 07, 2013, 11:07:10 PM
Andre, here's a foto of the back yard of friends we were visiting in Prince Albert in Dec 2005--foto taken in Sept 2005. Looking South towards the Swartburg Mtns in the background, your home in the Karroo might be just a ways over the crest and then SE.  I put this onto my desktop now and again, when we start to get colour-deprived around mid-late-Feb....

J.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: ianshearin on February 08, 2013, 12:00:26 AM

As a child, we often wondered if it was indeed a Brooks, but by then the surface had pebbled to the point where we could no longer discern a logo. By the time I was 8, large chunks had fallen out and it had to be replaced with something more contemporary.

Why am I not surprised that child grew up to be Dan.....

 ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 08, 2013, 01:00:34 AM
When my father was a boy, he corresponded with other kids living there (they met as enthusiasts of the same youth-oriented Western/cowboy magazine) and this writer sent b/w photos and waxed eloquent over the spectacular nature of the Karoo's sunsets. Apropos nothing except you happened to live there for a time...d'you remember the sunsets as well?

First of all, a geography lesson. The area I grew up in is called the Little Karroo for a reason, there is also a larger desert called just the Karroo. My hometown was Oudtshoorn, world capital of ostriches. I have my old ostrich-skin cigar case, now in use as a pencil case, on my desk here. As a boy I actually raced ostriches, and on one occasion scooped up the intestines of a handler at the races who got in front of an ostrich's four-inch claw when he should have been behind it, and dropped his guts back in the cavity, keeping his stomach closed until the truck arrived to take him to the hospital. He survived, though he walked skew.

Indeed I remember the sunsets vividly. They were, well, vivid. It's the red dust in the sky which makes the Karroo sunsets so spectacular. It's a place of extremes.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 08, 2013, 01:27:58 AM
Andre, here's a foto of the back yard of friends we were visiting in Prince Albert in Dec 2005--foto taken in Sept 2005. Looking South towards the Swartburg Mtns in the background, your home in the Karroo might be just a ways over the crest and then SE.  I put this onto my desktop now and again, when we start to get colour-deprived around mid-late-Feb....

I'd say that fellow is looking straight towards Oudtshoorn, where I was born, about 39km through the mountain.

That's a very misleading photo of the Karroo. There's a river nearby, not shown, and probably pumped water as well, and those colourful flowers come out at most for a fortnight every year! But yeah, like most deserts, the Karroo has its surprising corners.

In fact, my mother used to go annually up to another desert, the Namaqua, and camp there in the sand to every horizon, sometimes for two or three weeks, and then one morning the sand, to every horizon, would be a riot of these vivid magentas and deep yellows and oranges and reds and green, totally covered, the desert just disappeared. But you had to be there when it happened, because the next it would all be gone; the plants had reserves for only the one day's showing before disappearing under the sand for another year.

Obligatory on-topic comment: Once, when there was snow on the Prince Albrecht Pass, a friend and I cycled down from the top of the mountain into Prince Albrecht, and then had to find a friendly housewife to give us a meal and a bed until a truck could make it over the mountain to fetch us back. We might have been 10 and 11. The women who took us in told my mother she would have kept us if she could. we were so well mannered. The older brother who obligingly drove the bikes to the top of the mountain got dressed down for it; his excuse was that he thought we intended riding down the other side of the mountain, back home. Those were carefree days, growing up in the countryside; by the time we were fourteen, we were flying a Tiger Moth we rebuilt, probably none too well, all over the countryside; plenty of flat places to land if spark plugs needed cleaning, and the guys at the local Air Force base were always happy to fuel us compliments of the taxpayer...

Thanks for the refreshing photograph. I've grabbed it as reference for a watercolour; drop the name of your friends who took to andrejute at coolmainpress dot com so I can give them a proper credit, or, if you properly don't want to give their name to a stranger,  I'll just credit them as "Photo by friends of John Saxby".

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on February 08, 2013, 03:06:38 AM
X __As a boy I actually raced ostriches, and on one occasion scooped up the intestines of a handler at the races who got in front of an ostrich's four-inch claw when he should have been behind it, and dropped his guts back in the cavity, keeping his stomach closed until the truck arrived to take him to the hospital. He survived, though he walked skew.__X
WTMI, Andre  :o :o

 :-X (ill)

Now you've put me off my lunch!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on February 08, 2013, 10:59:30 AM
Ostrich racing? I didn't know you could...there you go learned something new :)

One escaped in NL some time ago and started chasing cyclists (and to 60 km per hour...)

He had to be shot as they couldn't catch him and they have a mega kick with mega nails. Beasts with attitude I didn't know you could even mount them :)

Now maybe you can ride them with the right saddle...  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on February 08, 2013, 11:08:07 AM
Ahh, now that just had to be investigated  ;)

Ostrich racing
(http://www.chicagoreader.com/binary/cec4/ostrich.jpg)


Genteel ostrich riding
(http://georgialadiesaside.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Ostrich-Aside-1910.jpg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andybg on February 08, 2013, 11:42:13 AM
Fantastic!!!!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 08, 2013, 03:54:25 PM
Ostrich racing? I didn't know you could...there you go learned something new :)

One escaped in NL some time ago and started chasing cyclists (and to 60 km per hour...)

He had to be shot as they couldn't catch him and they have a mega kick with mega nails. Beasts with attitude I didn't know you could even mount them :)

Now maybe you can ride them with the right saddle...  ;D

You don't use a saddle. You mount from behind by grabbing the wing roots and jumping on, hooking your calves in front of the ostrich's thighs for purchase. You have to get off behind it again, because in front of it your chance of survival is about 50:50. The race shown has handlers out of shot with long poles with hooks one to catch ostriches by the neck under the beak, and hold their heads to the ground to stop them kicking out for fear of kicking themselves in the head. Those people mounted the ostriches in specially constructed triangular log starting gates where they were held immobilized until the rider was on. That takes no skill. Real men race ostriches by chasing them round in a circle, jumping up, and then opening the gate into the raceway...

A large male ostrich is quite as dangerous as, say, a leopard, if you don't have the right experience and tools to handle it. That's because the ostrich is nowhere near as intelligent as the leopard. The leopard will retreat from pain, the ostrich won't. I'm not surprised the Dutch zoo-keepers shot the one that got loose; it's a no-brainer once an ostrich gets in among the people, because next you're facing liability suits for the rest of your life.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 08, 2013, 03:57:47 PM
WTMI, Andre  :o :o

 :-X (ill)

Now you've put me off my lunch!

Sorry!

What does "WTMI" stand for?

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andybg on February 08, 2013, 04:03:22 PM
I would guess - Way Too Much Information - but it is new to me too

Andy
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on February 08, 2013, 05:01:40 PM
So, a horse you don't stand behind, an ostrich you don't stand in front  ;D

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on February 08, 2013, 05:24:03 PM
Years ago i raced greyhounds

But they always won
 ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andybg on February 08, 2013, 05:29:15 PM
So if you have an ostrich following a horse then you have nowhere to stand.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on February 10, 2013, 12:50:19 AM
Thanks for all that context, Andre.  I'll ask my friends who took the photo -- the friend with the white shirt, BTW, is also named Andre.  Those landscapes really are magnificent, in the spring especially.  Yet another Andre, (Brink, this one) wrote a terrifying-and-captivating story of the Groot Karoo, I think it was, "An Instant in the Wind" ... Can't imagine going down that pass at anything other than a very restrained speed--the gravel wd still be rated "extreme-to-over-the-top", I think, none the less so if one used a Brooks.

As you know, the ostrich-rearing industry based on feathers lasted only for a while, earlier in the past century while feather boas were in style, but the alternatives-to-cholesterol industry means that ostrich ranches are still producing today -- though Oudsthoorn may be quieter than in your day, Andre.  On a happier note: our son, doing a Ph D in bio-mechanics in Australia, helped some colleagues on a computer-aided study of ostriches' gait. All lived to tell the story, both the birds (which are pets, more or less) and the scientists.

J.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on February 10, 2013, 02:32:54 AM
Yes, I read the Andre P. Brink novel you mean. Strong stuff. -- Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on May 02, 2013, 10:22:41 PM
Apologies to bring this back on saddly tracks...but the vintage steel bike will be fitted with a perforated Regal so once he/she/it is up and running (vintage Italian steel? Surely a well styled he :P) I will give some feedback.

In the meantime, the Specialized Avatar is still my fav over Charge Spoon saddle. The Spoon is OK and a lot of people like it, but the way it is shaped means it sometimes nips me in the...err...bits on potholes, of which there are many here.

Your mileage/sitbones may vary.

Ostriches definitely nip and all of them.

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on May 02, 2013, 11:21:31 PM
An Italian bike's just gotta be a she, Jawine. -- Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on May 03, 2013, 10:20:17 AM
Ah but, I've never ever heard any man referring to their bikes as a "he".

I don't think it has to do anything with the type of bike but more with gender/sex of the rider...unless we have men here having male bikes and females having female bikes ;)

My XTC is definitely a rugged but not overly bulky male. Anthropomorphizing ahoy!
What does that make the glitter red Mixte fixie...metrosexual male? :P
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on May 03, 2013, 04:25:34 PM
Quote
Ah but, I've never ever heard any man referring to their bikes as a "he".
Till now!  ;D

All my bikes are "hims" and the same for the utility bikes and Avaghon adventure tourer of my Dutch pal and the Mizutani and self-built custom of a prior touring partner. My father's bikes are male, though his favorite horse -- Nellie -- was female.

Dunno why, but none of mine seemed to have a feminine vibe for me. When anthropomorphizing them, it is always "he". Maybe it gets back to childhood pets who also filled the adventure-companion role. The one female cat was very much a homebody, while the male beagle dog and two cats were ready for anything -- especially the last doglike cat, who walked on a leash, visited places with me, and loved car riding.

Bike as male persona...oh-kay. Bike as Adventure-Cat...eh, I need another animal companion.

My sister has far more sense than I. Her touring mixte is her "blue pony" -- but has a "men's" saddle, which she prefers.

All the best,

Dan. (...who *just* managed to work in something related to saddles)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on May 03, 2013, 05:11:25 PM
Blue Pony? That makes me thing of Rainbow Ponies  ;D

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on May 03, 2013, 06:02:52 PM
Anthropomorphizing ahoy!

I used to have a (German) teacher of psychology who always said the word full out, "anthromorphologizing", and every time it would stop everybody in the room for a second while they changed step.

What does that make the glitter red Mixte fixie...metrosexual male? :P

Ah, Jawine, you are a wicked woman. You made me choke on my chicken sandwich. "Metrosexual male", indeed!

Actually, the mixte is now such a trendy profile that makers of bikes which aren't mixte try to jump on the bandwagon. See WHY A WATERFORD BIKE IS A JOKE (https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0%5B1-25-false%5D)  https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.bicycles.tech/LqY0UpZTIP0%5B1-25-false%5D in which in passing I expose a bike topology naming practice related to "mixte" that in Europe would lead to a reprimand by the Advertising Standards Authority and possibly an investigation by Trading Practices officials.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on May 06, 2013, 10:25:49 AM
Holy cow that thread turns nasty pretty quickly though you hold your stride. And then they say men aren't bitchy...  ;D

Indeed that Waterford is Not A Mixte. Which are not as low as Dutch frames, but still ok if your skirt isn't too tight. I ride it fixed and prefer not to risk anything that can get stuck on the saddle nose.

Mixte are quite stiff, originally used for racing for a bit. I guess frame stiffness is another one of those selling points.
I can't image with short stays etc. a lot of the frame stiffness talk is not just merely talk.

*unless may you are 100KG and a brute*
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on May 06, 2013, 06:08:40 PM
Holy cow that thread turns nasty pretty quickly though you hold your stride. And then they say men aren't bitchy...  ;D

Most threads turn nasty on most fora, which is why it is such a pleasure to correspond with interesting and well-mannered people on this one. But that thread was particularly designed by me to put down a bunch of street bullies for good. I learned my polemics in places where second prize is a bullet in the back of the neck. These little wannabe flame warriors don't have the experience and sophistication to understand that I mean that literally, not hyperbolically at all.

Indeed that Waterford is Not A Mixte. Which are not as low as Dutch frames, but still ok if your skirt isn't too tight. I ride it fixed and prefer not to risk anything that can get stuck on the saddle nose.

Bit of a cheek really, to call it a mixte. But it isn't Waterford who calls it a mixte. They've very carefully written their promotional literature so that they can say in court that all that they claimed was that it looks remotely like a mixte, not that it is a mixte. With such crude nudge-nudge prompting, it is no surprise that their dealers (there are several Waterford dealers in that thread) tell the lie and then swear blind they do so on Waterford's authority. In Europe the various advertising agent's professional bodies would step on the perpetrators of such a lie hard, and various government agencies have involved themselves, with serious penalties, for less blatant transgressions of the truth.

Mixte are quite stiff, originally used for racing for a bit. I guess frame stiffness is another one of those selling points.
I can't image with short stays etc. a lot of the frame stiffness talk is not just merely talk.

*unless may you are 100KG and a brute*

I've used your remark above as the seedcorn of another thread: Eyeballing the stiffness of the non-diamond Thorn frames (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6439.0)
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6439.0

Andre Jute
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on July 09, 2013, 11:13:03 PM
Risk putting thread back on rails here...

Bought a Selle Royal Regal for the vintage beastie (of which I am proud hence piccie here http://static.lfgss.com/attachments/70169d1373224105-ciocc_sancristobal_2013_07_07.jpg) and it's a tad...firm atm.

Even for the sitbones. So it may be one of these saddles that needs some sitting on before it feels really good. Fun times with big potholes atm!

So Specialized Avatar still my nr 1 favorite saddle. Tubulars and a frame built when races weren't done on smooth tarmac do a great job of dampening the worst of the roads btw, really takes out vibration.


Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on July 10, 2013, 12:02:22 AM
Quote
Risk putting thread back on rails here...
;D
Quote
the vintage beastie (of which I am proud
And rightfully so, I might add! You did a wonderful build, Jawine; I don't remember seeing them look any nicer in the showroom, new, back in the day!
Quote
...it [new Selle Royal Regal saddle] may be one of these saddles that needs some sitting on before it feels really good.
I suspect you're right, Jawine. I had one Avocet Touring II that did that, and it turned out to be one of my favorite saddles...later.  ;) Just took a bit of time for me to shape to it and vice versa. If it is any help, it looks wonderful on the bike.
Quote
Tubulars and a frame built when races weren't done on smooth tarmac do a great job of dampening the worst of the roads btw, really takes out vibration.
It really is wonderful how much compliance is in that combination, isn't it? Nothing rides quite like it. You may still have to post (stand) on occasion when encountering a really sharp jolt or big bump, but that's a small price to pay.

Very, very nicely done, Jawine; all compliments your way on a very professional job of it. Please let us know how you get on with the saddle over time.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 13, 2013, 10:22:47 AM
So the Avatar 143 is possibly too narrow, or the profile isn't right. I like the cut-out but the Regal offers better hip support for me.

So Regal on Thorn now, looks nice too, it's er...hard, but the hip support is very good and it also supports parts of hip between the leg. Whatever that's called me and anatomy :)

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 13, 2013, 03:36:59 PM
As a recent (a few years) convert to Brook B73, I don't want to sound like a hypocrite suggesting something I no longer ride myself, but I've always wondered why more women, and men too, especially commuters and recreation riders, don't use the available bicycle seats. I had excellent experience of the Cheeko90 when my back was wrecked by an overly stiff Peugeot frame on harsh Marathon Plus tires. It's comfortable, secure, very convenient, and also works well with the several kinds of sprung seatposts I owned at the time. You can see the Cheeko90 on my electronic/automatic Trek tourer at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html It's an American invention, made in the Far East; mine was imported from The Netherlands and cost under forty euro (I seem to remember...)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 13, 2013, 04:15:17 PM
Hey that Cheeko is very reminiscent of the flat leather saddles we used to have on Dutch Roadsters! Associated with skirts (no snag) and older people (cos out of fashion)

Never had one, guess they only work in an upright position but otherwise must be comfy :)

So far, the Charge Spoon on my Charge Hob that came as standard is OK, but the cutout is neither deep enough to be really useful, and the saddle isn't flat enough to support the inside hip bones. OK but wouldn't use it for very long rides even though reviews are good. (It's a city bike though...)

I've had a Brooks years ago but it was well erm worn in. Thorns don't come with standard saddles. The saddle an ex-colleague of mine had on his White bike was too thin for him and the Specialized of his first came got put back on pretty quickly.

I seem to prefer harder/wider saddles so far. Selle Italia Ladies Gel Flow Saddle gets rave reviews, not tried one yet.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 13, 2013, 07:29:10 PM
Never had one[Cheeko90], guess they only work in an upright position but otherwise must be comfy :)

Very comfy, definitely for bikes with the handlebars higher than the saddle. You can get a semisporting position by setting the saddle up higher than normal, say level with the tops of the bars, and then leaning forward, pressing back against the seat. You can develop enormous power at the pedals that way but it is a learned position (so is drops) and pretty tiring. I used it to storm up a hill where previously I had to push.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on September 14, 2013, 03:52:25 AM
. You can see the Cheeko90 on my electronic/automatic Trek tourer at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html It's an American invention, made in the Far East; mine was imported from The Netherlands and cost under forty euro (I seem to remember...)

I think I know what this is going to be  :-\


(http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/969/948969_090919174142_100_7385.jpg)


Yep, one of the "Five Horsemen of the Cycling Apocalypse"  ::)

First invented in the bicycle boom of the 1890s, frequently re-invented every 10-20 years, never commercially successful, and there's good reasons for that.

The other horsemen are elyptical chainrings, automatic gears, airless tyres and shaft-drive.

BTW, saddles have a nose for very good reason. Most people are unaware of how the nose of your saddle assists steering and control.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 14, 2013, 04:26:09 AM
The other horsemen are elyptical chainrings, automatic gears, airless tyres and shaft-drive.

Ha! On that bike I had two of the horsemen: a noseless saddle and an automatic gearbox.I don't care that they weren't commercially successful. I liked them both because they worked well for me.

And I had an elliptical chainring on a Peugeot in the 90s. That one I hated with a passion.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on September 14, 2013, 05:21:51 AM
I don't care that they weren't commercially successful. I liked them both because they worked well for me.

Mostly they have not been commercially successful because they don't provide the claimed benefits for most people, have significant disadvantages that outweigh the benefits, and/or are subject to massive failure or huge wear losses after they have been in use for a while.

Great if they work for you, but "one swallow does not a summer make"  ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 14, 2013, 04:05:48 PM
Mostly they have not been commercially successful because they don't provide the claimed benefits for most people, have significant disadvantages that outweigh the benefits, and/or are subject to massive failure or huge wear losses after they have been in use for a while.

Certainly, one of those "horsemen of the apocalypse" that I had experience of, the elliptical chainring, deserved its commercial failure. It sounded plausible to the innocent but was technically misconceived.

Furthermore, I can understand why the automatic gearbox in the full implementation (Shimano Di2 for hub gearboxes, with active suspension driven off the same electronics, the "Smover" combo) failed: once you already have an easy-changing manual hub gearbox (Shimano, SRAM, Rohloff, more) the advantages are subtle. But they are there: you cycle more efficiently (by being always in the right gear and being in it sooner) and you arrive in less time and you're fresher when you arrive. But cyclists, even the rational Dutch, didn't see that as worth a premium. I bought my Trek new, landed, for less than the best Gazelle cost, and received wonderful support from Trek Benelux. I thought it was the bargain of all bargains for a technofreak cyclist. (Those who're wondering what we're talking about can find a description of this rare and wonderful bike in the PDF Andre's Trek Navigator L700 "Smover" available at my bicycling page (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLING.html).)

As for the Cheeko90, if used as intended, as a seat for bolt upright riders cruising the bike paths of Central Park, it is brilliant. It is even brilliant for the lanes. It has its niche.

I understand, intellectually, what the saddle nose is theoretically good for, but I don't hover over my saddle like a racer down on the drops, I sit squarely on it, and my bike was designed from the ground up, with for instance 14 evenly spaced gears, so that I need never stand up on the pedals. I therefore don't need the nose, and found the Cheeko90 good in practice regardless of its condemnation on theoretical grounds totally irrelevant to the Cheeko90 design aims by people with zero on-seat experience.

I replaced the Cheeko90 because the materials used on it started to look a bit tacky after a few years. I replaced it with a Brooks saddle because I'd bought one cheap at a monster half-price sale SJS had a few years ago. I kept the Brooks because it is durable and presentable even when worn. But if I could buy a Cheeko90 covered in Brooks-thickness leather today, my order would be in before another five minutes elapsed, at any price up to 140 British pounds, the current new price of the Brooks B73 I use.

Great if they work for you, but "one swallow does not a summer make"  ;)

Too true, but I'm not trying to make a summer, merely to discover what works for me. There is far too much dumb conformity, and pressure for more dumb conformity, in cycling already. (Most boutique gear isn't technically different: it is just snobbishly exclusive, ostentatious spending on the same thing with a fancier label.)  That's one of the pleasures of this conference, that the contributors are willing to try anything at least once if it makes some kind of sense, so that someone on here, sometime, tried almost everything which has a true advantage under real-life conditions, and can render a reliable opinion.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jimmer on September 14, 2013, 10:03:24 PM
Dear Andre,

Just because I owe you for the banana / marmite tip.

A personal question, but I'm just in from the shed with my B17 in one hand and chainsaw in the other. How big is your butt? For that money I'm prepared to sculpt it to fit your posterior's finest contour.



Yours, James

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 15, 2013, 01:26:34 AM
A personal question, but I'm just in from the shed with my B17 in one hand and chainsaw in the other. How big is your butt? For that money I'm prepared to sculpt it to fit your posterior's finest contour.

My butt is elegantly narrow, but I sit nearer upright than very likely anyone else here, so my saddle must be wider. And I do sit, whereas the B17 class of saddle isn't intended to lounge on but to be hovered over lightly.

Actually, what you want isn't the chainsaw but a drill to sculpt tidy holes along the flank of the B17 to lace it, which brings the hammock back up to level and makes it into a new saddle. Particularly good for saddles which have run out of adjustment.

With tears of gratitude in my eyes, for I know what it costs a man to offer his B17 to another...
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 15, 2013, 02:12:56 AM
Quote
...the B17 class of saddle isn't intended to lounge on but to be hovered over lightly.
...Ideally matched to the hummingbird cadence and forward lean of the touring roadie.
Quote
With tears of gratitude in my eyes, for I know what it costs a man to offer his B17 to another...
...An act of generosity so rare, I have never before seen it in an online forum.

Best to all,

Dan. (...who is reminded once again of the selfless nature of our membership)

 ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on September 15, 2013, 09:15:13 AM
My butt is elegantly narrow, but I sit nearer upright than very likely anyone else here, so my saddle must be wider. And I do sit, whereas the B17 class of saddle isn't intended to lounge on but to be hovered over lightly.

Sounds like what you need is a B67. Wider saddle with springs to take the jolting out of an upright position. I use a similar B66 (double-rail saddle) on my upright roadster and it works very nicely on the railway crossings.

B67
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4142/4869637127_d63b500ec2_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 15, 2013, 09:45:20 AM
Sounds like what you need is a B67. Wider saddle with springs to take the jolting out of an upright position. I use a similar B66 (double-rail saddle) on my upright roadster and it works very nicely on the railway crossings.

B67
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4142/4869637127_d63b500ec2_z.jpg)


Spot-on. The Brooks saddle I currently use, and that I'm not giving up, is a B73, which is essentially a B67 leather hammock on a twin rail frame with a helical spring at the front as well as at each rear corner. Check the sizes at http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/city+%26+heavy+duty/B73/

(http://www.brooksengland.com/images/cache/shop/shop_saddles/classic_saddles___city___transport/b73/colors/b73_black_1_w800_h600_vamiddle_jc95.jpg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 15, 2013, 06:02:56 PM
Mucho spring. That's what Le Manfriend wants for his cargo bike (or similar) where a few grams here or there...

He has a Brooks on his other bike too. I must try one sometime, and see do I have a "Brooks ass".

PS Banana and Marmite? I've both in the house but well far from each other...
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on September 15, 2013, 06:22:58 PM
what kinda seatpost would you need for that thing. ::)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: julk on September 15, 2013, 06:32:21 PM
Jags,
An old fashioned one with a plain top.
The saddle clip goes round the plain top and grips as the bolt through the middle of the clip is tightened.
The main drawbacks are the weight of the saddle and clip, and the rudimentary stepped adjustment of saddle angle.

I have just moved my wife from a B66s to a B67s because we could not get a saddle angle she was happy with.
The B67s now has a Brompton Pentaclip and the saddle angle is perfect.

Anyone want a good condition used B66s cheap, complete with saddle clip? Just needs an old fashioned plain top seatpost in your bike.
Julian.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 15, 2013, 07:47:45 PM
Hi Julian!

Is there any chance a Breezer double-rail saddle clamp adapter might allow the B66s to fit a (now) standard alu seatpost with integrated clamp? They're still available inexpensively via Amazon and other sources, or can be made: http://www.amazon.com/Breezer-Double-Rail-Adaptor-One-Bolt-Seatposts/dp/B001GSSFEI Available in two types to fit most seatposts.

Grabbing a couple adapters might increase your chances for a ready sale.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: julk on September 15, 2013, 09:41:01 PM
Dan,
Thanks for the suggestion.
I used to have one, must be in a box somewhere in the garage, but I found the single bolt seatpin it fits to have the same problem of discrete jumps in angle which is ok if one of the angles suits, but otherwise not so ok. Maybe I had a cheap seatpin, I don't remember now.

I am spoiled on my own bike by a lovely lugged Nitto S84 double bolt job. Infinite angle adjustment for me, sadly they are too short to put one on my wife's bike ;)
The Brompton pentaclip is a work of art though. It fits single rail saddles, old plain top seatpins and gives infinite angle adjustment with just an allen key. You can set the pentaclip backwards or forwards as suits you with the saddle position, there is also an upper and a lower position for the saddle rails.

I will be selling this old B66s saddle off cheap, so no real incentive for me to buy extra kit.
If it doesn't sell then it just goes in a box in the garage - I must have the making of another bike in there in old bits.
I run a cycle club at my local church and any unsold bits will get reused there eventually.
Julian.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 15, 2013, 11:59:41 PM
I have shocking news for you, Jawine. The B73 is the lightest of Brooks' seriously sprung saddles... I do recommend it though. It has the reputation of being the most comfortable Brooks saddle straight out of the box, and that has been my experience too, in the sense that the break-in was not traumatic at all.

You should try a Marmite and banana sandwich. You may thank me yet. Or not, as the case may be.

The old-fashioned double- and triple-rail Brooks saddles come with a custom clip, Jags. The clip fits the rails and squeezes shut on a plain-top seat post pillar without any of the microadjust gubbins. It's crude but it works, most of the time, though the clumsy and the impatient (me) would rather have something more modern... The pillar looks like this, from SJS's selection:

(http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/17255.jpg)

Julian, what do you reckon will happen if I were to fit a Brompton Pentaclip to a Brooks saddle with twin rails each side, like my B73 pictured above? Anyone else have an opinion? For those who don't know what it is, the Pentaclip can be seen here: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/brompton-penta-clip-for-rail-frame-saddles-prod13716/
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: julk on September 16, 2013, 08:49:17 AM
Andre,
I reckon it could be done with the bottom rail in the upper position of the pentaclip.

BUT the saddle is only held by the bottom rail which on my twin rail saddles measure 5.75/5.82 mm chromed/painted and my single rail saddles all measure 7mm. So a lower strength when using just the lower rail.
I did not fancy my wife being on the 'bleeding edge' of technology, certainly not in such a crucial area, if the saddle rail failed.

Sadly the pentaclip guys have missed an opportunity to offer a 'brooks twin rail' pentaclip with the alloy side pieces cast to have the right spacing and size for the twin rail saddles. It looks eminently feasible.

I will be interested to hear how you get on if you try it.
Julian.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 16, 2013, 09:15:34 AM
That Brooks with all it's sofa springiness is over a KG!  ;D Still, that or saddle sores/sore butt?

Let me ask Le Manfriend if he's interested in the B66. The Cargobike isn't on the road yet, the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.

Now do I want to waste a banana I've only one left...
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on September 16, 2013, 09:26:44 AM
Breeze Seat Sandwich ?? (http://www.wallbike.com/saddle-accessories/breeze-seat-sandwich) Like they said in the 1970s women's garment ads "It lifts and separates"  ;)

(http://www.benscycle.net/images/Breeze%20Bikes%20Seat%20Sandwich_02.jpg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 16, 2013, 02:44:19 PM
Just got a 1993 Regal Girardi with Titanium rails from fleabay for Ciocc.

*excited*

I have to say the old "it's saddle + tires + position, stupid" may ring true, the Regal is great on the tubular more forward vintage bike, on the XTC where you sit more upright + clinchers it may be too hard possibly. Looks hot though.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 16, 2013, 10:28:21 PM
Andre,
I reckon it could be done with the bottom rail in the upper position of the pentaclip.

BUT the saddle is only held by the bottom rail which on my twin rail saddles measure 5.75/5.82 mm chromed/painted and my single rail saddles all measure 7mm. So a lower strength when using just the lower rail.
I did not fancy my wife being on the 'bleeding edge' of technology, certainly not in such a crucial area, if the saddle rail failed.

Sadly the pentaclip guys have missed an opportunity to offer a 'brooks twin rail' pentaclip with the alloy side pieces cast to have the right spacing and size for the twin rail saddles. It looks eminently feasible.

I will be interested to hear how you get on if you try it.
Julian.

Thanks, Julian. I've been looking at the Pentaclip on and off for years, but didn't know anyone reliable who had one to ask until you came along. I don't fancy being on the bleeding edge of technology either (!), so I think I'll give it a miss. Those Brooks clips are unbelievably crude and nasty, but they'll just have to soldier on.

If the rails on the single-rail and the double-rail saddles were the same, I might have tried it but, with your measurements in hand, I've now concluded that it is extremely likely that those two rails are part of the suspension rather than merely fixing points, and that they're scaled for both rails to be clamped for either purpose, holding the saddle on the bike (and your backside off a crude apple corer) and isolating your spine from the road.

Thank you so much for the initiative of the measurements, and for going to the trouble.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 16, 2013, 10:40:10 PM
That Brooks with all it's sofa springiness is over a KG!  ;D Still, that or saddle sores/sore butt?

It's a saddle likely to last forever, for which your great-grandchildren will thank you. "The Ancestor was not a weight weenie."


... the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.

The operation is known as "running the tap over the threads to clean off the paint". Actual "rethreading" is a much more serious operation when the threads themselves are damaged.

Now do I want to waste a banana I've only one left...

No risk, no gain. The friends I've put onto this combo regard me much as people I knew when I made MTV videos (my excuse is that it was unbelievably well paid and they didn't mind if I used a pseudonym...) looked at their cocaine pusher. I have one friend in the States who has a standing monthly order at some Amazon foodie mailorder merchant for $90's worth of Marmite and a deal with her greengrocer to deliver her daily dose of bananas to her door every morning on his way from the wholesale market to his store. You're missing out as you shilly-shally.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on September 16, 2013, 11:16:40 PM
Breeze Seat Sandwich ?? (http://www.wallbike.com/saddle-accessories/breeze-seat-sandwich) Like they said in the 1970s women's garment ads "It lifts and separates"  ;)

Thanks. Looks like my last alternative.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: macspud on September 16, 2013, 11:42:31 PM
the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.

It sounds like the bottom bracket needs "Chased and Faced" which will remove the powder coating from the threads and the outer face.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: George Hetrick on September 17, 2013, 04:20:04 AM
... the BB needs re-threaded (help? proper technical term?) as they powdercoated over the threads.
The threads have to be chased.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 17, 2013, 04:13:33 PM
Le Manfriend currently contemplating either bikeshop or get a facing tool for the already quite good toolbox.

The quoted kg weight for the B66 was a little steep. But then he has a 1/4 hill to climb on the way home...and the cargo will not be light at all as it is. Though you can do some real damage to taxis for sure :D

(no Marmite at work...that banana affair is for home ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 17, 2013, 04:34:00 PM
Jawine,

Danneaux's Heavy Metal Mantra to pass on to Le Manfriend:

"The heavier the bike load, the smaller the effect of additional weight".

Say you're riding with a 10kg load. Adding 1kg is 10% of the total. Ouch.

But...!

If you ride with a 50kg load, that 1kg more is only 2% of the total. Nothing!

Ride a heavy enough bike and -- beyond a certain point -- anything weight you add to the load is "free".  ;) :D ;D

Best,

Dan. (...who thinks of these rationalizations while carrying 26.5l of water...adding that MP3 player ain't gonna matter!  ::) )
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jimmer on September 17, 2013, 04:51:19 PM
Dear Dan,

But a mere straw broke some poor dromedary's spine.

Flippancy aside, the point about being aware of the proportional contribution of additional weight to the overall is valid.

Furthermore, any, effective, suspension will contribute to journey speed by enhancing comfort and traction / road holding. Something he'll have time to fully appreciate as he takes that little bit longer to winch up the 1:4.

James
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 17, 2013, 04:53:19 PM
Quote
...a mere straw broke some poor dromedary's spine.
Drat! I knew there was a flaw...

 ;D

All the best,

Dan. (...who now knows why his lungs are about to burst and his legs are about to fall off...it's that added MP3 player!)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: beerbike on September 17, 2013, 05:46:22 PM
I did post a little comment about my Brooks Cambium experience previously. A new email in my inbox - Cambium wins Eurobike Gold Award - has prompted another response. Yes it is light and looks great. Also awarded for functionality which is OK if that is to look good on a show bike! It is uncomfortable with no give for the sit bones. Yes it does have a bit of a springy hammock effect, but still all your weight lands largely on 2 points. Leather brooks mould over time to accommodate and improve comfort. The saddle is covered in a cotton fabric - moisture absorbent, not wipe-able on a dewy morning after a touring camp out. An inadvertent oily finger has left a stain on mine in its 1st week, which will be there until lost in amongst future stains and grime.

Brooks leather saddles have a great reputation. The Cambium seems like a marketing exercise to me, and it is annoying to see a product promoted for what it really isn't. Maybe I should do a loan arrangement so folk can test drive one and judge for themselves! Wish I had that opportunity before purchasing my 'saddle of a lifetime'.

All the best

Greg

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 17, 2013, 06:44:17 PM
Hi Greg!

Same email in my box this morning. Here's the html version for those who have not received it direct:
http://us1.campaign-archive2.com/?u=779d0fc02cc4843db052687bf&id=b3e0713db2&e=5e454051e8

Thanks so much, Greg, for sharing your firsthand user experience with the Cambium -- absolutely invaluable to those of us who have been considering. I had fears of same, but figured it must surely have been sorted by release time. How sad and disappointing!

Might it be worth trying to sell-on at this point? Interest in the saddle is still keen, and that Eurobike Gold award can only help the prospects; there might be a ready market even for a used one.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 18, 2013, 09:30:56 AM
Ah sorry to hear it didn't work out :(

I do think Brooks has developed something very marketable as the saddle is effectively vegan (not everybody wants leather) and looks like it can be made reasonably eco-friendly (bar aluminium, unless they use recycled) so it may be a good addition for the product line. Sometimes a company has to diversify.

But the proof is as always in the sitting. Maybe it will work for others as there seem to be few saddles that suit everyone.

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 25, 2013, 02:50:21 PM
So, as it turns out, a Regal Girardi (80s/early 90s) isn't exactly the same as a modern day Regal (slightly narrower and less supportive (though also less mega hard))

I found out that the old Specialized on the XTC was also slightly different than the modern one.

So, if you have a favorite saddle don't assume the next generation is exactly the same. Bar with Brooks I guess...  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on September 25, 2013, 03:17:20 PM
If you ride with a 50kg load, that 1kg more is only 2% of the total. Nothing!

Ride a heavy enough bike and -- beyond a certain point -- anything weight you add to the load is "free".  ;) :D ;D

That's  the same with alcohol when on bike tours - "alcohol has no weight"

(http://www.geekologie.com/2011/03/18/bicycle-beer-holder.jpg)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 25, 2013, 05:53:26 PM
Quote
That's  the same with alcohol when on bike tours - "alcohol has no weight"
Exactly!  ;D

Superb illustration of the point.  :D

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on September 26, 2013, 08:19:16 PM
It does tend to get in ones legs while cycling though  ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on September 26, 2013, 11:49:32 PM
Ah. Carried to camp. Only to be drunk post-ride. Two pints make for excellent rehydration in my experience  :)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: kingnutterrick on October 24, 2013, 08:29:52 PM
Has only one used the rivet pearl saddle SJS cycles carries. I am looking for a nice saddle.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on October 30, 2013, 10:34:04 AM
Do you know what type of saddle agrees with you?

Nothing like a good leather saddle (Regal/Brooks/Rolls/Concor) but some people don't get on with them.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on October 30, 2013, 10:45:51 AM
Nothing like a good leather saddle (Regal/Brooks/Rolls/Concor) but some people don't get on with them.

Only one of those is a real leather saddle  ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Peejay on October 30, 2013, 02:52:44 PM
To Kingnutterrick,
I have a Rivet Pearl on my Raven. Just done around 300 miles on it and it's an armchair! Best saddle I've ever owned. No real break-in period as it was good from the first ride, however it is getting better with use.
I normally ride Brooks Pro's and still have them on my Sherpa and Bob Jackson - great saddles and still comfy to ride on, but the Pearl is just that bit better.
Being a big guy - the Pearl is more suitable as it's a bit wider than a Brooks Pro 170mm vs 160mm, and the cut-out works real well, no "hard as iron" feeling on the front of the saddle.
Build quality is superb, in my opinion better than Brooks - weight is similar to a Pro (chrome moly) - and the mounting rail to top of saddle height is the same - so no saddle height adjustment.
If you are after a touring style saddle on the wider side go for one. I'm going to change my other bikes to Pearl saddles in the new year.

Pete.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on October 30, 2013, 06:57:32 PM
Hi All!

Some reviews of the Rivet Pearl saddle (they come in a variety of rail choices and colors) can be found here:
http://road.cc/content/review/88162-rivet-pearl-saddle
http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2013/05/a-look-at-rivet-saddles.html
http://justrollingby.com/2013/03/06/the-rivet-pearl/
http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2012/07/review-the-rivet-pearl/
http://campyonlyguy.blogspot.com/2012/07/campy-only-road-test-rivet-saddles.html
http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/rivet-saddles-long-distance-cyclists-26750.html
https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=69777.0
(Rivet Diablo): http://ridingthecatskills.com/2013/01/04/on-the-rivet-saddle-a-preliminary-review/

Mfr. landing page: http://rivetcycleworks.com/
Mfr. saddle page: http://rivetcycleworks.com/the-pearl/

For those of us with longer memories/dabblers in older bikes, here is the much older version of the Pearl: http://bikeville.blogspot.com/2013/05/pearl-aluminum-rail-leather-saddle.html

If only an older saddle will do, don't forget Hilary Stone: http://hilarystone.com/saddles.html

Helpful overview of saddles here:
http://www.randorichard.com/hints-helps/saddles
http://www.randorichard.com/hints-helps/saddles-2

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on November 01, 2013, 01:03:01 PM
Only one of those is a real leather saddle  ;)

I've still to own a Brooks. Vintage Brooks on an Italian bike...hm not sure. It would fit the Thorn though :)

But mind you the brand new Regal is definitely harder than the Specialized Avatar I had! Working my way up to this:
http://sheldonbrown.com/real-man.html
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on November 01, 2013, 06:31:46 PM
Quote
Working my way up to this:
http://sheldonbrown.com/real-man.html
;D :D ;)

A do wish my recent Brooks B.17s didn't go soft so quickly. Each new one I buy seems softer than the last. I do hope Brooks isn't trying to make their products more "accessible" to a mass audience, neglecting their hard-core fans in the process.

A happy side-effect of Danneaux's Great Suspension Seatpost Experiment may be longer saddle life, 'cos the leather doesn't have to absorb the sharp impacts from a bouncing posterior all by itself. Time will tell.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Pavel on November 02, 2013, 05:57:17 AM
;D :D ;)

A do wish my recent Brooks B.17s didn't go soft so quickly. Each new one I buy seems softer than the last. I do hope Brooks isn't trying to make their products more "accessible" to a mass audience, neglecting their hard-core fans in the process.

A happy side-effect of Danneaux's Great Suspension Seatpost Experiment may be longer saddle life, 'cos the leather doesn't have to absorb the sharp impacts from a bouncing posterior all by itself. Time will tell.

All the best,

Dan.



Yes!  Yes, YES!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: julk on November 02, 2013, 09:46:30 AM
Try lacing a brooks saddle when it goes too soft.
It is very easy to do and it brings it back to ‘normal’.

Use a spring toggle clamp on the lacing and you can then adjust it quickly to suit.
Julian.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 02, 2013, 10:51:57 AM
Try lacing a brooks saddle when it goes too soft.
It is very easy to do and it brings it back to ‘normal’.

Use a spring toggle clamp on the lacing and you can then adjust it quickly to suit.
Julian.

And it looks very trick too, without having to take a blade to the leather to cut slots in the top, which is the next step up in mangling Brooks saddles.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on November 04, 2013, 05:58:34 PM
Is it really that bad? The manfriend's well sat-in Brooks feels very comfy.

I now almost must have one to compare it to a stone saddle :P
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on November 04, 2013, 06:29:04 PM
Quote
I now almost must have one to compare it to a stone saddle
As Pavel might say, "Yes!  Yes, YES!"  ;D (Any excuse for a Brooks, Jawine!)

All the best,

Dan. (...who likes his Brooks B17s firm in feel and convex in shape)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on November 04, 2013, 11:12:13 PM
Well, just received this very day from Spa Cycles in 'arrowgate, a new black Nidd touring saddle, and very spiffy it is too.  Pretty much identical in shape & size to my dark brown B17 with copper rivets & plated rails.  Have some slight misgivings as I don't normally buy knock-offs...  Then again, I also bought a set of Spa's XD2 cranks for my Raven's drive train, and am very pleased by how pretty they look, all the more so 'cos of the very good price -- sans VAT, several steps south of £20.

When my Brooks migrates next spring (northwards, of course, as the sun rises higher in the sky) to sit atop my Raven frame & 'post, the Nidd will take over day-ride duties on the Eclipse, making that bike wholly black, grey n silver.  It comes, BTW, complete with a pre-punched-and-laced transverse tightening setup.  The Nidd will be Obenaufed shortly, for protection during its hibernation against the effects of our forced-air heating.

Comparative reports & side-by-side fotos to follow after the vernal equinox.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 05, 2013, 04:17:37 AM
Have some slight misgivings as I don't normally buy knock-offs...  Then again, I also bought a set of Spa's XD2 cranks for my Raven's drive train, and am very pleased by how pretty they look, all the more so 'cos of the very good price -- sans VAT, several steps south of £20.

Whoa! The XD2 cranks Spa sells aren't the knockoffs, they're the real thing straight from Sugino. It's the poncey, polished, house-branded ones out of China that are the knockoffs. And Sugino is so easy to work with, many of the housebrand XD2 aren't Chinese knock-offs either, but real Sugino made by Sugino with somebody else's brand on them. My Stronglight Impact Compact cranks are really Sugino Cospea forged by Sugino and labelled for Stronglight; other Stronglight Impact models, including their Rohloff-specific models, are Sugino XD2, ditto. At four times the price of Spa's XD2...

Well done, John.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: John Saxby on November 05, 2013, 05:31:18 AM
Thank gawd for that Andre, for setting me straight -- I done a good thing without fully knowing it...  Seeing no brand name, I thought perhaps they were no-name, despite the XD2 tag. And you're right, they really do look the business. I ordered from Spa in part on your recommendation in an earlier thread, and their advice, service and prices were all first-rate.  Any soothing words about the saddle, now that we're on the subject?
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 05, 2013, 11:28:13 AM
Thank gawd for that Andre, for setting me straight....  Any soothing words about the saddle, now that we're on the subject?

Man, it will do my image no good to be seen speaking to a softie like you. Real men ride Real MAN Saddles (http://sheldonbrown.com/real-man.html).

Checked it out at the Spa site; saw in the review about the Derwent tool bag, which I'll check when I have a moment (at the moment I'm shopping for paintbrushes and all the fibers I want now belong to protected animals); probably time to cruise the Spa site again and see what they have, especially since it was reported here that they had sorted their problems with posting to Ireland, which was what stopped me buying from them in years gone by.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: peter jenkins on December 15, 2013, 09:34:12 AM
I thought it worth mentioning that I have taken the advice offered earlier in this thread and laced my Brooks B17N.

It's only a few months old and was very (too?) easy to break in compared to two earlier versions on other bikes. Anyway, the sides began to flare outwards and the top to sag, but lacing it has made a huge difference.

I'm hoping the effect is long term. Theoretically, it should be as it would be  a matter of tightening the lacing if the problem resurfaced.

Cheers,

pj
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on December 17, 2013, 02:56:02 PM
Talking saddles...quite a few shops doing Christmas sales.

So good time to change one perchance if you're not sure what to get? ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Chris M on December 20, 2013, 11:04:02 AM
I've been looking for one of these since buying the Club Tour frame, currently on Amazon for around £160, I managed to get it for £90 from Cyclestore...happy days!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: leftpoole on December 20, 2013, 11:32:42 AM
Whoa! The XD2 cranks Spa sells aren't the knockoffs, they're the real thing straight from Sugino. It's the poncey, polished, house-branded ones out of China that are the knockoffs. And Sugino is so easy to work with, many of the housebrand XD2 aren't Chinese knock-offs either, but real Sugino made by Sugino with somebody else's brand on them. My Stronglight Impact Compact cranks are really Sugino Cospea forged by Sugino and labelled for Stronglight; other Stronglight Impact models, including their Rohloff-specific models, are Sugino XD2, ditto. At four times the price of Spa's XD2...

Well done, John.

Hello,
Another big thank you to Spa Cycles for these cranks. I run three of my Thorn bikes using Spa cranks (triples) at £35 a pop! Deal or what? Very good they are too. Lightweight (which is what one needs on a quality but pretty heavy bike) plus they look good and work very well indeed.
Thorn quality with Spa quality with value!
John
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on December 20, 2013, 06:04:17 PM
Quote
I've been looking for one of these since buying the Club Tour frame...
Oh, that's a beautiful saddle, Chris, and at a fantastic price! All congratulations your way on what is sure to be a long and happy relationship!

Can't wait to see photos of it on the bike.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Chris M on December 20, 2013, 06:11:37 PM
Thanks Dan, the saddle was delivered this morning just in time as I'm starting to build the Club tour up tomorrow. Will post some pictures once it's finished.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on December 20, 2013, 06:46:51 PM
i had that same saddle on my sherpa super comfy straight out of the box.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on December 20, 2013, 07:07:18 PM
Definitely, photos. Looking forward to them.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on December 23, 2013, 05:53:16 PM
Has anybody ever used Concors?

Shape looks like it may suit me.

(I know...not a Man Saddle...Sheldow's Ghost should do a female version for that lol)

Sheldow is a bit like Brian O'Blivion for those that have seen Videodrome...his words live on.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on May 05, 2014, 05:30:27 PM
So my Concor, while lovely is a tad TOO hard for the lovely Belfast roads. It also turns out that I really need a cutout.

I just bought a Selle SMP TRK. The male's version is 160 mm wide, the female version is 170. I went with the male one.

Went for a 24 mile test ride. No issues at all with perineum/sitbones/bits of pleasure(tm)

So if you find a real road orientated saddle too hard and want a bit more padding this may be a good one to try. CRC has them for £35.

There's a little chafing on the inner thighs, so if you are very susceptible to chafing there it may not work for you. Supposedly a T-shaped saddle is better if you get chafing, so Specialized Ronin/Avatar etc. are then options.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on May 05, 2014, 05:43:48 PM
Yay, Jawine!

Sounds as if the Saddle Search may be over for you...at least for now. It makes such a difference to the overall Riding Experience™ if one isn't thinking about how terribly this or that hurts. I've been through the saddle wars myself...I think we all have at one time or another.

So glad to hear you've found a winner!

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: onebikeoneworld on May 16, 2014, 03:30:16 AM
Got myself a new saddle - the bizarre looking, but rather comfortable Manta from www.mantasaddle.co.uk
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on May 16, 2014, 10:12:21 AM
Man your having a laugh,
what the hell is that thing ;D ;D


jags.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: il padrone on May 16, 2014, 11:11:17 AM
Gaaahhh! Such obscenities are one of the Five Horsemen of the Cycling Apocalypse  :o ::)

Far too many don't seem to appreciate that the nose of a saddle serves a very important role. Firstly it supports the length of the saddle to give spring and resilience. Secondly it is an arm that your outside leg lies against when turnng, to help better control and regulate your turning motion.

Ignore this at your peril.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on May 16, 2014, 02:53:19 PM
Pity about the colour of that Manta, or I'd have one in a flash.

It would look good on my wall.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: energyman on May 17, 2014, 07:12:53 PM
The mind boggles !  Let alone other parts of ones anatomy.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: onebikeoneworld on June 24, 2014, 11:19:20 PM
I've done about 3000km on it so far, and it's really incredibly comfy!
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on June 25, 2014, 10:25:07 AM
Ignore the haters you're a trend setter  :P

Report on the Selle SMP TRK: 5 days of 40-50 a days and it kinda works for me.

Kinda, as I developed some mild rubbing saddle sores. Not to an extent that I could not cycle but I guess the nose may be slightly too wide for me.

The rear is however fine and comfy, and the shape where there's a depression to sit in is great and the weird nose is fantastic riding out of the saddle. And the cutout is perfect, the saddle is very supporting for the hip bones but the cutout ensures the Prides and Joys (of whichever type you have) don't get nipped.

So I think I should get an SMP Hybrid which I read is a bit narrower/harder. This is fine for town though, the issue only started to happen about 3 days.

So definitely a worth to try saddle.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on July 18, 2014, 11:24:11 AM
Made a change from Selle SMP TRK to Selle SMP Pro and really like it, the nose is narrower so no more chafing and I can feel sitbones better.

It's 148 wide it still is wide enough for my hips/sitbones (as it turns out, you don't just sit on the sitbones, but also on the middle of pelvis)

They're expensive, so go used first. If you have narrower hips you will need another model. For reference a 143 Specialised is too narrow for me, if you need 155 this may work.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on August 12, 2014, 05:21:54 PM
One note on SMP: There are fake models on e-bay/other sites, so check carefully before buying.

Probably more of an issue with new ones at very good prices, but FYI. Asian shipping locations are riskier.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Audax hopeful on August 17, 2014, 12:10:48 AM
Musings of a returning cyclist!

Over the last four years my cycling miles have been pretty much zero – mostly due to depression and consequent motivation and confidence issues. I live in North Devon so almost any route is guaranteed to involve serious hills. The only flat route – the Tarka Trail – though scenic and good for bird spotting is never going to boost my lapsed fitness!
 Well I’m finally facing these issues and back on my bike. I’ve got a 12.3 mile circuit with 1000 ft of climbing which I’m riding regularly and really enjoying. Part of this is due to my new found affection for and embracing of low gears – the granny ring is my friend! I could quite happily do away with the big outer ring altogether!

I’ve been using two bikes – my self-built Thorn Audax mk111 and Claud Butler Dalesman. The later has four panniers attached (with very little in them!) and 32mm Marathon tyres and gives a very smooth ride. Poor road surfaces are noticeably evened out and the touring image helps me to NOT race. I love it – but contact points have all given grief! Numbness in feet, hands and groin have all had to be tackled by careful fine tuning of position. Why a well broken in B17 narrow, or previously perfectly placed spd cleats should need so much attention is frustrating – and the saddle is still not perfect! This bike is not new and I have b&b toured on it through Brittany very happily 5 years ago. The B17 narrow does date back to my club and time-trial days some 35 years ago (on my winter/training bike, often with fixed) and still looks fine (I tightened – gently – the leather for the first time recently!) but I am considering a Team Pro to replace it.

I treated myself to a new saddle on the Audax – a Brooks Cambium, very much an impulse buy in the LBS. This has needed very careful setting of longitudinal tilt (very slightly nose down) – helped by the fine adjustment on my Thompson seatpost – but is now very comfortable. The Audax has a much sportier ride to the Dalesman, helped by lighter wheels and 28mm TopContacts as well as only carrying a saddlebag. Road chatter is much more evident but it’s definitely quicker over the same route. Again I’ve not been shy of using the granny ring, though generally ~ 1 gear higher than the Dalesman!

It’s not escaped my notice that a Rohloff hub would be perfect for my present riding style and future aspirations – and that both bikes could be collectively replaced by a suitably specced Mercury!! For now my two bikes are giving me much pleasure and I’m dreaming of ever longer rides and even a spot of cycle camping before the winter.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Bill C on August 17, 2014, 11:51:56 PM
Hi there Audax Hopeful
I'm just outside Barum ;) 1 mile from the Tarka and use it on a daily basis, 60 odd miles of carfree trail (Braunton meeth braunton) and you reckon it won't get you fit? how fit are you intending to be?
the torrington to meeth section is a fair ride, true it's flatter than the local roads but the unmade surface makes it a challenge to keep up a good speed,
have you done ilfrascum to plymouth yet? that's a decent ride and it's much easier since they put the bridge in at grenofen, i had to dismantle the klien from bob and luggage and carry it all up in sections. before the bridge it was like an assualt course, though tbh it did make the trip that much more memorable

pic is just after Yelverton on the mtb trail, should of used the road but i saw some cyclists and followed them  ::)

back on thread i have 3 brooks flyers love them, a brooks conquest loved it before i had flyers now it seems odd, also have a brooks b67 aged, I really really can't get on with it, even sat bolt upright it's way to wide for my butt, 10 miles and i could easily lob it in the Taw

i'll keep my eye out for you on the thorn audax, i'll prob be on a black sherpa or more likely a raw xtc if it's nice weather
atb Bill
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on August 21, 2014, 11:04:35 AM
Ah, a fellow XTC owner :D

So Le Manfriend, who has a Brooks B17 didn't cycle for a while, got back on it and isn't as comfortable as he used to be.

So, I guess the changes in our bodies (weight, flexibility...) can also influence saddles. Just to make things easy.

I'm still very happy with my SMP Pro, it's on a Gazelle 531C track, so I sit reasonable forwards and very forwards in the drops.

The SMP TRK is too wide/soft, so I am trying to find another used SMP (these things are MEGABUCKS) for Thornie.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Audax hopeful on September 30, 2014, 08:16:20 PM
Saddles - they're just so important! I've read everything I can find on the net, of which this thread was very interesting:

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/zadels/index_en.html#zadel-zitbot-breedte

So I measured my sitbones (or rather my wife did!) and I also got the local bike shop to do so on their Specialized gizmo. The two were 2mm different (122mm and 120mm). An injection of cash in the form of Bike Shed vouchers for my birthday, and I've decided on the traditional B17 in brown!!

I've yet to put serious miles on this (maybe 100 in total so far) and it definitely still needs to be broken in some - but I can certainly feel the support for my sit bones from the first ride. I'm hoping I've made an excellent long term choice!!

Nich

Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on September 30, 2014, 08:19:19 PM
Quote
I'm hoping I've made an excellent long term choice!!
I think you most likely have, Nich; congratulations!

Be patient, be willing to make adjustments, and be willing to adjust your mileage at first and address any hotspots if you have them. These will all go far toward success.

Chances look good! All encouragement your way.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on September 30, 2014, 09:39:11 PM
bill thats some track you rode down or is it up. ::)


jags.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Bill C on September 30, 2014, 10:46:23 PM
Hi Jags
it was down, the pic was just before a hairpin
i still have Bob but it doesn't get as  much use now as I broke a quick release skewer for it, bike was unrideable so it all got left at a house until we could organise transport to get it home
I bought spares and always carry a spare skewer now,
Bob is the only reason i think/thought about a Rohloff
but try as i might can't see a thorn i'd use it with, don't want or need another touring bike ,
i suppose i'll bite the bullet and get a Surly Troll frame n forks one day as it seems to be the best option
I really like the idea of a dedicated trailer mount, v's for brakes and an avid bb7 as a drag brake, if i could only weld or silbraze i'd put a brake on Bob as i had it jackknife a few times on really steep off road descents
could just buy a solid axle rear wheel and some Bob nutz and save a fortune but then i'd still be kicking rear mechs  ::) big feet and i like hiking boots lol
it's nice to drag everything to a basecamp and then ditch all your kit and set out for day rides without all the weight and crap bolted to the bike, especially down here as it's hills everywhere you go  ::)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on April 07, 2015, 05:25:10 PM
Bought a Specialized Oura, will report back once it has more miles on it :)

Cutouts for the win for me...if you get numbness they're worth a go. Brooks also does cut out saddles now.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Danneaux on April 07, 2015, 05:56:48 PM
Quote
Brooks also does cut out saddles now.
Selle Anatomica do, too: http://selleanatomica.com/

As with many such things, reviews are mixed. Saddles are such a personal thing!

Find what works and stick with it. Even better...find what works and lay aside as many as you can get your hands on. The "good ones" have a nasty habit of being discontinued by their makers.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: in4 on April 07, 2015, 06:46:41 PM
I  appreciate that these saddles with cut-outs are designed with varying comfort requirements in mind. When looking at one though I can't help thinking the worst, say if I slipped off the pedals :o
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on April 07, 2015, 08:54:48 PM
My frence buddy rides a saddle like i've never came across before  doesn't have a nose almost like the saddle was cut in too,he reckons it works fine and very comfy. btw he's one hell of a fit cyclist as he proved one day i took him to the cooley mountains he left the local group for dead. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on April 07, 2015, 09:51:15 PM
Adamo perhaps?

They look quite strange :)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on April 08, 2015, 04:27:18 AM
 
I used to ride a Cheeko 90, which looks like a vintage metal tractor seat, except with padding.

(http://probike.rs/image/cache/data/sedista/3701059-1000x832.jpg)

I found it to be a superb bicycle seat and had absolutely no problems keeping lateral conrol of my bike.

However, while the thing looks good when new, in charcoal grey cloth reminiscent of MBtex, the cloth wore patchily in a couple of years and the vynil surround was vulnerable to anything rough or sharp it came into contact with. I replaced it with a Brooks B73, not because the Cheeko was in the least unsuitable or worn out, but because it had become cosmetically untidy, and the Brooks cost less than recovering the Cheeko90 in leather, and I wanted to experiment with Brooks because I never had one before and it was on sale at SJS.

I just liked the Brooks so much that I never returned to my fallback plan, recovering the Cheeko in leather.

The first class gubbins under the cheap covering:

(http://images.bidorbuy.co.za/user_images/539/1434539_101101103302_IMAGE_978.jpg)

In my opinion the Cheeko90 was the best of the bicycle seats, a boon to people with bad backs and haemorrhoids and pressure on unmentionables and whatnot complaints about bicycle saddles. But the quality of concept and base construction wasn't matched in the soft furnishings, and the marketing was a mess. It is no surprise that this fine seat is no longer on the market, or that secondhand ones go for high prices. It works, and is worth recovering with a more lasting material.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on April 08, 2015, 08:18:50 AM
Looks akin to Dutch skirt saddles.

Cutouts in selle SMP are such that there's no pressure anywhere. But as every model is a slightly different shape its annoying most shops don't have try-outs.

And cutouts have "air cooling" as plus :p
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on April 20, 2015, 08:53:56 PM
After a 14 mile cycle: SMP pro wins over Specialised Oura.

If pressure on perineum/"bits" is your main downfall, do try one. Used on eBay or if you are sitting very upright try a trk model. (Not sure SMS has them?)

Spez cutouts aren't a long/wide. In my case a touch too small or just no long enough.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: JWestland on November 11, 2015, 10:13:45 AM
OK, so I now also own a Selle SMP Lite 209. I find it very similar to the Pro, with the cutout being a little smaller.

So, if you're sensitive to very small changes in saddles, think with the one SMP, but both seem OK for me.
The pro (bit wider) is on the Thorn, the Lite 209 on the fixed wheel.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 11, 2015, 05:07:16 PM
both seem OK for me.The pro (bit wider) is on the Thorn, the Lite 209 on the fixed wheel.

And that seems to me the essence of a good bicycle saddle: Don't notice it, nothing to report, seems okay, nechevo, zilch, nil, no problemo.

Welcome back, Jawine.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: lewis noble on November 15, 2015, 04:58:14 PM
Anymore comments on the Brooks Cambium models, now they have been around a bit longer??

Lewis
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: onebikeoneworld on December 24, 2015, 12:44:49 AM
I posted this saddle when it was new, but now I've had it for 20 months and done 24,000km on it I'm still as happy with it. It's also now black rather than blue.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/952508/thorn1.jpg)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/952508/thorn2.jpg)

Looks ridiculous, but the comfiest thing I've ever ridden. Also works as an amazing conversation starter and has got me a number of invites for places to stay on my tour.

www.mantasaddle.co.uk
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on December 24, 2015, 12:57:38 PM
no comment :o :o
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: onebikeoneworld on December 26, 2015, 11:44:25 PM
Indeed, there are few words strong enough to show your amazement :D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: jags on December 27, 2015, 01:24:31 AM
ain't that the truth  :D
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: energyman on December 27, 2015, 05:59:09 PM
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
 ;)
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: onebikeoneworld on December 27, 2015, 06:08:05 PM
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
 ;)

Madness it is! I'd have gone red but he didn't have any in when I ordered and if I'd gone black I'd definitely have lost it.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: Andre Jute on December 27, 2015, 10:09:45 PM
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
 ;)

It matched the originally blue saddle. But then he sat on the saddle and it turned black. He didn't sit on the stick.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: energyman on December 27, 2015, 10:43:12 PM
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
 ;)

Madness it is! I'd have gone red but he didn't have any in when I ordered and if I'd gone black I'd definitely have lost it.

True.... mine (black) was lost behind the tumble drier for a month.
Title: Re: Saddles Thread?
Post by: onebikeoneworld on December 28, 2015, 12:26:03 AM
Has the man no taste - a BLUE Click Stand with a BLACK bike - wot is the world coming to ?
 ;)

Madness it is! I'd have gone red but he didn't have any in when I ordered and if I'd gone black I'd definitely have lost it.

True.... mine (black) was lost behind the tumble drier for a month.

I've lost plenty of things in my handlebar bag and panniers for ages. Black is just a terrible colour for things if you want to not lose them.