Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Battery Charging from a Dynamo => Topic started by: Danneaux on October 19, 2012, 10:47:34 pm
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Hi All!
Introduction: I have "Needs"
As you know, I tour solo in remote areas and have need for extra cargo capacity to carry the food and water needed to sustain me for extended periods away from civilization and resupply.
I also have need to generate power to keep my gadgets going away from mains power – GPS, cellphone, batteries for the water purifier, and future needs for charging a laptop or tablet.
I also have need for a mobile video camera platform to film me as I ride along, and a means to keep it going.
Some of you also know I work as a product tester and do catalog photography for outdoors products in my off-season when I'm not consulting in research methodology and applications of machine systems-control theory. Ofttimes, when testing I am required to sign non-disclosure agreements with the manufacturer, and when I photograph items for catalogs, they are often empty shells with nothing inside (cosmetic, pre-production prototypes). Rarely do I get to share the results of final, developed products that are ready for market and can by purchased by anyone.
This time is different, and I'd like to take you along on the ride, so to speak...
I have solutions (collectively known as "A Project")
Based on the ideas I have proposed to them, I have partnered on a special project with the Polish trailer producer, ExtraWheel ( http://www.extrawheel.com/ ), to create a unique solution to all these problems –- using their latest, improved trailer design to provide needed extra cargo capacity, to produce electricity as I ride, and to serve as a mobile camera platform and generate the electricity needed for extended filming as I ride, and the power needed to edit photos and film and write about my adventures in camp at the end of the day.
...And you can help and be part of the journey
Since these goals have bearing on so many of the topics covered by this list, I am going to make my build and development public here as it progresses so you can be involved as well. A sort of crowd-sourcing effort, I will share my progress and will be soliciting your own thoughts and input as it progresses. I should be able to answer many of the questions that have occurred about trailers, charging systems, and taking video from a variety of perspectives. Best of all, I can do it with a crowd of people focused on and experienced in touring. This will be an entirely new use for a trailer, and should open up some avenues for individual innovation.
Trailer as dyno-charger
At present, I have ExtraWheel's newest, most evolved trailer, chock-full of the latest improvements in design and manufacturing, as well as a fully-built wheel I have assembled, using a SON28 dynohub. B&M's e-Werk will handle charging duties this time, since a Tout Terrain The Plug 2 is not compatible with the trailer (no steerer tube in which to house it). The eWerk has the added advantage of user-adjustable voltage and current for greater charging capacity. Coupled with the TTTP2 on the Nomad, I can dedicate the trailer to high-draw/high-drain charging duties and there is a good chance it will accomplish its task without need for a heavy buffer battery (it will either recharge the laptop/tablet battery during a full day's riding at the USB 5.0vdc/1.0A setting or will power the GoPro HD Hero2 camera in the course of events, with embedded battery fallback during stops). This use would not be possible with a single charger which will also be needed for lighting duties; that task will fall to the TTTP2/PAT/New SON28/IQ Cyo R/Toplight Line Plus combo on the Nomad. The e-Werks and SON28Klassik will handle those primary duties on the trailer, perhaps by...
Trailer as solar charger; in the works...
Solar is in the works as well, pending sponsorship replies. I specified the trailer with ExtraWheel's newly-introduced rear rack, and have found it is possible to build a charging platform that will insert into this rack, secured from below via ExtraWheel's new, integral investment-cast dropout sockets. I have designed it and will braze it up in the next several weeks. Lacking that, the trailer will accept my Tubus Cargo Evo rack in addition to the ExtraWheel rack and integral pannier racks, and the handling is affected little if any with the new trailer design. The Cargo Evo is a champ at combining lightweight with strength (redesigned with new investment-cast lower mounting points) and is narrow enough at the top to match ExtraWheel's own rack, making it continuous and contiguous with theirs. It is also wide enough at the bottom to avoid fouling mounted bags and – though high and rearward from the ideal required for good handling with the ExtraWheel trailer – looks like a viable solution for mounting a lightweight solar collector. I'll be testing to see which works best – homegrown rack extension or repurposed commercial rack. The one thing I am counting on is more efficient solar generation by mounting the panel on the trailer, where it will be out of my shadow during the day.
Trailer as nighttime charger
This project will also allow me to pursue nighttime charging. In the desert and coastal regions where I often tour, constant night winds are a given. In the Great Basin, afternoon gusts of 39mph/63kph are common, dying down in early evening and often returning to those levels through the night. The trailer can be easily inverted once the bags are detached, and I am deep into designing and making detachable fabric blades that can be attached to the spokes to turn the trailer's dynohub wheel into a power-generating windmill for nighttime charging duties.
Trailer as...trailer (cargo)
Of course, the panniers mounted on the trailer will give me the capacity needed to haul the food and water I require for my extended desert crossings, and I have a big one coming up next year.
Goals and Methodology
When I approached ExtraWheel with my ideas, they felt the whole project was sufficiently innovative to sponsor me with a hefty discount (I paid the difference out of pocket and all shipping; I did the same for the other components...this has not been a cheap Inquiry), and I'd like to share the development with Forum members in the hope my results will aid in choosing solutions to meet your differing needs, as well as a means to directly compare power-generating and charging systems. There has not yet been a direct comparison of these products and approaches holding other factors constant. In testing the most popular solutions at once, I will be able to tell you all which products are best tailored for a specific purpose so you can save time and money on the selection and get what you want for a given purpose -– all these products are good, and each excels in a particular use. It should be a fun task, and we can all benefit from the results.
This is all made possible by hanging a charging system on the trailer for direct, realtime comparison with similar components mounted on the bike, and it is only possible in my case through use of the ExtraWheel because its large wheel (a bicycle front wheel) is the only type suited for use in the rough, sandy, and sometimes boggy terrain where I will be testing and using the device. Also, by building the dynohub into what amounts to a second bicycle wheel spinning at the same speed (same size), I will be able to collect and analyze data that are directly comparable.
The acid test for my ideas and development will be my next big extended mountains-to-desert tour, scheduled for late-Spring 2013. In the meantime, throughout this Fall and Winter, I will be developing my innovations and will post on my progress, seeking feedback and answering questions on the trailer, the charging system, and camera mounts as they develop.
Where can I buy this stuff?
Meantime, it is worth noting that SJS Cycles/Thorn, the sponsor of this list, sells most of the items mentioned:
ExtraWheel Voyager trailer:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?name=ExtraWheel&page=1
Tout Terrain The Plug 2:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?name=tout%20terrain&page=1
Busch Und Muller eWerk charging unit:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?name=ewerk&page=1
B&M IQ Cyo headlight:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?name=iq%20cyo&page=1
B&M Toplight Line Plus taillight:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/busch-and-muller-toplight-line-plus-rear-dynamo-light-prod23284/
ExtraWheel also sell through a dealer network or direct from their site, here: http://www.extrawheel.com/
Another line of inquiry: Trailer as touring-bike substitute
One goal of my testing will be to see if ExtraWheel's trailer, equipped with power-generating capability, would be a suitable substitute for a dedicated, conventional touring bike on non-expedition tours. Not everyone wants or needs a dedicated touring bike, but would like to tour occasionally with the bike they already own, which might not be suitable otherwise or without extensive modification. With up to 40-53 liters' capacity, an ExtraWheel could easily carry enough for conventional touring, provided one had access to resupplies of food and water. I have purchased two additional sets of Ortlieb panniers –- BikePacker Plus (Cordura fabric, QL-2 support system) and BikePacker Classic (traditional truck-tarp fabric, QL-1 support system) and a 13l Ortlieb trailer-racktop dry sack to use with the ExtraWheel, all intended to answer the following “what if” questions...
What if you could...
1) Use a lightweight bike without racks or panniers and go touring at the drop of a hat without having to change anything on the bike? ...and you could do this with *any* bike, even a folder or recumbent or a tandem. You could own a whole stable of bikes by owning just one...and a power-generating trailer. Kind of the ultimate in ultralight...with no sacrifices either way. Once in camp, unhook the trailer and ride around the area on your superlight racer; the tent and stove and your warm bed await you back at camp. The trailer will accept anything from 700C wheels and 19mm tires to 26" wheels and 2.5 knobbies for off-road. One of these would make a nice club purchase, for use by members as needed.
2) When you hooked up the trailer, you had a full charging and lighting system for *that* bike, all powered by the trailer's dynohub? Just clamp on a headlight, twine the wire around the frame tubes, and plug-in as you attach the trailer. Done.
3) You could transfer it to or from from any bike as quickly as you could swap the rear wheel's quick-release? ...and have lighting, power, and conventional (pannier-based) luggage capacity? I see this as a nice way to go touring with friends who don't own touring bikes, but would like to try bicycle camping. I could ride my Nomad with racks and panniers, while they use my trailer and bags, with spare tent. They end up getting the experience on their present bike, which fits them, at no cost for the trial.
4) Fly on vacation carrying your "touring bike" (take-down trailer) in your luggage, then attaching it to either a rental or a locally-bought bike when you landed? The ExtraWheel knocks-down small, and would fit inside conventional luggage, unlike a longer trailer.
5) Carry a touring load and have the bike handling suffer less 'cos the load is carried in part on the rear axle? -- the load leans with the bike, which carries only a part of it, down low and on the axle.
6) Whatever bike you hooked the trailer to would suddenly have a dynohub and lights? You could even swap the bare trailer from bike to bike when you wanted lights at night; it is the lightest trailer currently on the market. Suddenly, it wouldn't matter if your dynohub wheel was built into a 26" or 700C wheel...you've got it all, and as many as you'd like! The trailer will accept any size 700C or 26" wheel or tire, and the weight of the unladen trailer is dependent on wheel choice.
7) If you already had a bike with lights and charging system...imagine having *twice* the charging power with no need for heavy storage batteries?
8 ) No need to buy or install racks and panniers on your bike. Yes, you could add a handlebar bag, or a rear rack and rack-pack or a saddlebag...but you might not have to, depending in the length and location of your tour.
9) What if the trailer also solar-charged a storage battery? Or trickle-charged appliances as you rode and while parked?
10) If you need extra capacity for world touring...simply hook up the electric-generating trailer and go. You'd have enough capacity to haul an additional 70 lbs in two 40liter bags and a 13liter rack sausage -- 53 liters of additional storage for extended water or food, making it possible to go for lengthy periods away from any resupply. The ExtraWheel also provides a spare front wheel that can be used as a direct replacement if the bike's front wheel is damaged, or it can be cannibalized for use on the rear. With lots of wheel clearance and no brakes, the trailer will easily tolerate a ratty, damaged wheel until proper repairs can be made.
11) What if the trailer charged at night (windmill power) and you had full batteries or charged appliances awaiting you when you awakened in the morning?
Lots -- and more -- to ponder here...
These are some of the questions I'll be investigating going forward. Meantime, there's a myriad of small details I am also working on. For example, it would be nice to have a dyno-powered LED taillight for the trailer, something like another B&M Toplight Line Plus would be ideal, but there's a problem. The dyohub produces AC current, and the LEDs require DC current. Usually, the AC to DC rectification takes place in a headight, and the taillight attaches to the light, sipping DC current only. Without a headlight to do the job, I will need to make an AC to DC rectifier to power the taillight directly, and am in-process on that now. It will work in parallel with the e-Werk doing charging duties so I can have a light running all the time if I wish; the two LEDs behind prismatic taillight lens draw very little current, and shouldn't affect charging. I will incorporate an SPST switch in the rectifier so I can turn off the taillight for charging comparisons.
So, lots of developments here at Danneaux Labs, and I'll be looking forward to your input and feedback as the project progresses.
Best,
Dan.
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My GOD Dan your a pure genius, you my friend should be worth a fortune.
of course you know at this early stage people will be stealing all your ideas and more than likely taking the credit for it the nature of people. but at least the guys on this forum will know your the main man ;)
the very best of luck dan with this project it can only be a winner and i cant wait to see the finish trailer .
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Very elegant set of solutions there Dan. Many congratulations offered. I can only begin to imagine the amount of thinking time you've devoted to it. Now, we really should think of a proper name for it. Cue the ad' men on here!
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Fantastic project Dan
I will be intruiged to see how you get on with the project. The use of wind power is something that has always interested me and certainly for the lower power usages needed while touring it must be a viable addition to the project.
What are your views on the extra wheel trailer? How does it tow and what are your views on quality. It seems such a good idea but I feel the cost is high unless the quality of the "out of the box" components is good.
I am sure the forum members will be watching this with interest and will be there to help where they can.
All the best
Andy
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Hi Dan
this made a great morning read. Lots of left field thinking, especially the windmill idea and designing out the batteries. No wonder you've been busy.
Good luck with it all,
Ian
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WOW!
Arrrgh!
Something else for me to think about.
I hadn't really given an extra wheel any thought. Not even when Il Padrone sent me a fantastic pic of one yesterday. I just saw it as something extra, more weight,more tyres, more problems etc. The fact that you can unhook and have your unloaded bike back is a revelation.
As for your custom build power ideas. I'm blown away, what a wheely good idea. The Spinning Genny, will definitely be getting some thought for part 2 of my tour in a few years. If there is a stockist in Hackney it might get tried out this weekend!
Chapeau! Dan
Wish you all the luck with it's evolution.
One for the road: How loud is the wind powered phase going to be, or will the wind be loud enough to drown it out?
Can it be turned into a Unicycle;)
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I don't want to throw a spanner in the windmill but I 'm not clear how you'd rig up an Xtrawheel to become an overnight wind generator ??? It would seem to require rather a lot of support struts to keep it off the ground, in particular to get the elevation to catch the stronger breezes. It's a bit academic as out in the outback on my recent tour most days were quite windy but at sunset the wind dropped right out to give us very calm nights.
Like this perhaps??
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7017/6762596379_1e33daee05_b.jpg)
I did make use of the Xtrawheel to provide a good clear mounting place for the solar panel to charge the Powermonkey Extreme. Held under the straps on the Bikepacker Classic panniers it caught all the sun for most of the day to charge the battery quite well. In contrast to the E-werk it was charging steadily all the while, even during rest stops and our lunch break.
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Hi All!
In answer to recent questions, I can expand on my current-model project ExtraWheel trailer's build quality and components in some detail in text and photos. Those wanting the Executive Summary can simply skim the bolded bits; details follow below them...
1) Weld quality has been improved and is now on a level with the joints on my Thorn Nomad.
2) Paint finish is improved over earlier versions; it is evenly applied with full coverage and is nicely glossy throughout; the completely sealed finish bodes well for long-term durability and rivals that of many complete bicycles for smooth application.
3) The cro-mo trailer fork ends are now closed and bespoke investment cast pieces replace the previous stamped-tab dropouts and fender/mudguard mounts. My trailer was perfectly aligned, and these new pieces were full of thoughtful touches -- for example, the dropouts each include integrated mounts for the flag (which will help me greatly in my electrification project and use of the trailer as a video camera platform). Also, the mudguard strut mounts now include hex sockets that make attaching the fender stays or the accessory rack much easier for the end-user to accomplish; they hold the nylock nuts from turning as you tighten the flanged buttonhead allen bolts. The taper-section supports for the bags are now cleanly and fully mitered to the trailer frame for full contact; bag mounting rails remain 10mm to match popular cro-mo racks by Thorn, Tubus, and Surly, making it easy to fit popular panniers.
4) The included mudguard/stay set is much more fully developed than previously and is smoothly finished with no sharp edges and is very sturdy; the 'guard is stable and rattle-free. A very useful mudflap is now included to prevent road spray being flung off the rear tire. The 'guard itself is a high quality plastic/alu laminate without bridges; the stays can be set and adjusted as necessary along the side-bead of the fender blade, and release if the fender becomes jammed with debris.
5) The oil-filled bronze bushings at the bearing points are user field-replaceable with ordinary tools (hammer, punch, or vise). The oil-filled bushings use spring tension to center on stainless spherical ball-joints. and the pivots can be lubed with chain oil. When combined with the spherical hitch, the assembly approximates a rod end, heim joint, or rose joint. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_end_bearing ...and... http://bulletproofsteering.com/rodendhistory.html
6) The rear rack has been very nicely designed and built, but it could be improved. I would suggest that when a rack is used, the nylon 'guard spacer should be replaced with a solid spacer, perhaps made from extruded aluminum. My vibrational analysis shows the present plastic spacer will not prevent flex that could lead to long-term failure of the forward rack mounting tang, made of sheet stock. One could substitute a more rigid spacer and so prevent a potential fatigue issue from the start. It was not a problem, but I should mention I had to spread and align the rear rack mounting legs to get a good fit on the fender stay mounting bosses. Extrawheel are examining and working on the rack design just as they are working to continuously improve and further develop the trailer.
7) A five-year warranty was implemented this year; same as on Ortlieb bags. Details are on the Extrawheel website.
8 ) Online support has been expanded with videos and service guides for proper operation and replacement of the oil-filled bronze bushings, should that ever become necessary.
9) Expanded "hitch" options now include quick-releases in two different widths (standard and overwidth), bolt-on nuts in a variety of axle threadings (as for my tandem), and a new option to attach a hitch to a frame's mudguard or rack eyelets.
10) The supplied wheel and tire included were definitely not high quality, but are serviceable and a good value for the money. The complete wheel amounts to a €14 option. Keep that in mind. Given the low cost, I think they did a good job on it. Since the wheel is key to the trailer, it is worth spending a little time looking at it in detail...
The Included Wheel: Discussion and Analysis
It is a basic wheel that gets the job done in a straightforward fashion at minimum cost and is a good choice to get going very cheaply. If I were going on a world tour, I would likely go with a higher-quality wheel/tire (and I did for this project). However, the requirements for a trailer are different and generally lower than for a loaded bicycle -- the wheel trails the bike rather than leading it, is less heavily laden, there are no brake blocks for the rim to hit, and the trailer is very wide so an out-of-true wheel can be accommodated far more readily than on a bicycle.
Wheel Details and Materials
Like many machine-built wheels, the hub needs adjustment and lubrication, and it uses 36, 14-ga spokes woven and laced 3-cross. Extrawheel specify Taiwanese CN brand ( http://www.cnspoke.com/ ) galvanized steel spokes -- not stainless. Mine are chrome-plated steel with an "S" branding on the heads. Spoke tension was low but very even, and was easily brought up to tension. I do think it would make an immediately serviceable replacement front wheel for the bicycle in the event of an emergency (an "Extra Wheel"). The rim itself is a nice extrusion with very evenly machined sidewalls, brake wear indicators, and a nice satin-anodized center finish. It is made in China by TÜV-compliant Jinhua Stars Alloy Rims Co.,Ltd ( http://www.stars-rim.com ), and is their J18DB or J19DB model ( http://starsrim.no11.cuttle.com.cn/english/product1.asp?id=433 ), marked as suitable for 1.75/1.95 tires, 24.4mm at the sidewalls; 19mm between the sidewalls. Due to the aero rim section, the spokes are unusually short, so it would be hard to cannibalize or swap the rim or spokes to the rear, meaning the most-stressed wheel does not benefit from having and "extra" wheel. The Joytech hubs have aluminum shells with countersunk spoke holes, user-serviceable bearings, and decent labyrinth seals achieved by axle-fixed dust caps, provided the hub is fully packed with grease. If I were starting from scratch, I would build a wheel with the same or similar rim and spoke to what I used on the bike, but this would (did) add greatly to the overall cost (for this project). As it is the wheel and tire provided by ExtraWheel are of similar or better quality to that provided on the BOB-series of trailers. However, the larger diameter of the ExtraWheel means it will be less likely to drop into potholes and such, and will roll more easily over obstacles than a smaller wheel. Because of this, is is a fair assumption the larger wheel will be less stressed than one of smaller diameter.
Given the small €14 price difference between a trailer alone and one with this wheel, I think ExtraWheel made a good choice in selecting a hub and rim with 36 spokes for durability, and the selection of the deep cross-section Swift Arriv rim was a good choice; it is sturdy for the weight and the thick aero section will stand up well to vertical impacts if the trailer is used hard in rough terrain.
Remember, unlike a bicycle's rider, no trailer can "post" or stand on the pedals when encountering an obstacle, so it will tend to crash through holes and over bumps. Larger wheels and fatter tires run at low pressure help.
The Thailand-made Deestone ( http://www.deestone.com/ ) D804 26x1.95 mixed-tread hybrid tire supplied with the 26" wheel has a relatively smooth center tread for quiet running on pavement and aggressive side knobs for off-road use. Given the trailer wheel is undriven, I think a smooth-treaded tire would have been more appropriate and would have also reduced weight and rolling resistance and improved cornering on pavement. However, as a spare for MTB use, this may well be the better choice for the overall market.
The Schraeder-valve tube will ensure easy replacement anywhere in the world and in places where the smaller Presta valved tubes are unavailable. If you are running presta-valve tubes on your bike you will need to either use an adapter on the valve or pump, or switch to a presta valve and rim washer on the trailer wheel to keep all the same and minimize inconvenience.
Extrawheel offer alternatives. The Extrawheel trailer is available in a variety of configurations, from a bare frame with included mudguard, to a basic model with the wheel described above. Beyond that, options include panniers in addition to the basic trailer, with or without wheel. The Polish-made Crosso panniers ( http://www.crosso.pl/pages/en/about-us.php ) formerly optional with Extrawheel trailers have been replaced by Ortlieb Back Roller Classics or BikePacker Classics. A full range of Ortlieb's other offerings are available for purchase separately from their site. The net slings and canoe dry sacks of the original model are history, replaced with the introduction of the Voyager model.
Buyers can also source their own wheels from spare bikes or from eBay. Sometimes high-quality front wheels are available at very good prices when buyers change to disc brakes or for other reasons. A quick search for "Deore front wheel" on ebay.co.uk shows nice examples closing at £13-£22/€16-€27.
Tire Pressure: Oh-so-different for trailers & bikes
The tire provides the entire suspension on a rigid trailer and they carry less than on a bicycle, so it pays to pressurize them accordingly. The trailer carries far less weight than the bicycle's wheels, so there is no reason to run its tire at the same pressures. I found using anything approaching normal pressures on the 26x2.0 Schwalbe Dureme I am using was asking for trouble -- the trailer would easily launch and go airborne when hitting the smallest obstacle. While this caused no harm in practice, it is startling for observers and ultimately hard on the trailer and pannier contents as they are jolted with each landing. I found reducing pressure to 20-25psi was ideal, and pretty much ended all "unscheduled launches" without increasing rolling resistance at the tested weights. I'm still dialing-in pressures, and should have some pressure-weight correlates to offer. I need to reset my test rig to see what pressures allow a 15% "drop" according to the Frank Berto method I've long used for setting tire pressure. See: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=frank%20berto%20tire-pressure%20chart&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CD8QFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bccclub.org%2Fdocuments%2FTireinflation.pdf&ei=zBmDUKekFc3LtAbyzYHAAw&usg=AFQjCNG0brdux1kpIIRk4JMOvrS1cmY86w ...and... http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=frank%20berto%20tire-pressure%20chart&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bikequarterly.com%2Fimages%2FTireDrop.pdf&ei=zBmDUKekFc3LtAbyzYHAAw&usg=AFQjCNGL_6p-7qkIU4Jd555EVfa1UXs5Lg I think something less than 20psi might well do the job depending on the load being carried.
For me, the deciding factors in choosing the Extrawheel were the large wheel size, the ground clearance, the short overall length and light weight, it takes standard panniers rather than having a platform, and it has a single wheel, making it suitable for this project. It can also be packed with the bike for shipping, unlike a larger platform trailer. I have two 2-wheel trailers of my own design, but they have 16" wheels and are unsuitable for really rough ground, where the double-track means the trailer wheels hit everything the bike misses and they can tip over independent of the bike (an advantage and disadvantage at once).
Detail photos attached below; ride and handling reports with video links to follow in a later post.
Best,
Dan.
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looking forward to video and next batch of of photos, ;)
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Thanks for the information Dan. The quality definetly looks good and I think I will be adding one of these to the wish list.
I am certaily looking forward to how you fin it is practice. In respect to trailers, I love the idea of the extra practicality but as you know am still looking for one that ticks all the right boxes in respect to ability and joy of towing
Andy
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I love this idea of converting a wheel with a dynamo hub into a wind turbine for overnight battery charging!
How about using a couple fenders as turbine blades?
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/Nomad/turbine.jpg)
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i would say dan is keeping this one close to his chest until he has it to perfection ;)
i'm just waiting for him to design a pair of 100% easy fit easy take off overshoes.
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http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/competition-how-far-would-you-have-to-ride-to-generate-enough-energy-to-power-an-electric-oven/ (http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/competition-how-far-would-you-have-to-ride-to-generate-enough-energy-to-power-an-electric-oven/)
Looks like the bar has been raised Dan. what's your solution to this?
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I have a rowing machine that can display power in watts. I can keep up 100 watts pretty much indefinitely but 140 watts is a lot tougher! An electric oven! That'll depend on temperature etc. but those things have to be scale of 1000 watts, i.e. me on the rower for 10 hours. That's probably the same as me riding on the level at around 10 mph or a touch more. So roughly 100 miles of riding, or 130km.
Given that air resistance goes up as what the fourth power of speed or some such, doubling one's speed cuts the time in half but pushes the power up by say 16, so the energy dissipated goes up by 8. The faster one traverses a fixed distance, the more energy one uses.
That's a silly contest!
I was out on a night ride last week with with my 2010 Edelux light & SON dynamo hub. I couldn't bake bread but it sure lit up the road nicely!
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Yep I agree a pretty stupid competition.
I think you are in the ball park of 100w giving around 10mph which means you would be riding somwhere in the region of 300miles to use the same amount of energy that an oven would use
I think sprint cyclists can produce somewhere in the 2000w range. On the rower I can hold 220 watt avarage over a 10km distance and that hurts.
My sugestion is a wood burning oven. 1km cycle to the forest. 1km cycle back. Burn wood for 1 hour.
Andy
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On the rower I can hold 220 watt avarage over a 10km distance and that hurts.
Egads you are a monster! I can pull that power for about three strokes!
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I used to row for my university and have managed to keep about the same level of fitness. Believe me it is not bad but nowhere near poffesional status. They are pulling around the 500w mark for that length of time. Now that must hurt lots.
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Looks like the bar has been raised Dan. what's your solution to this?
Hmm. Good question, Richie. Let's see...my hummingbird cadence + Rohloff's Gear 14 + Jawine's knees + cheering from the assembled crowd + the TTTP2 on the bike and the B&M e-Werk on the Extrawheel trailer + a power inverter = Success, easy! :D
All the best,
Dan. (...has to be a microwave oven so I can have quick, tasty dinners in camp)
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Hi Dan, I love your ideas with the extra wheel. I first read your post on forums. net. I am intrigue with your project. I am having a new wheel set built with the newest Schmidt son 28 dynamos. I have a standard Schmidt on my front now. I am serious about following your project big wheel. I hope to build one this year, if you don't mind me following your e-Werk setup to handle charging duties.
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Hi King!
Welcome to the Forum! I'm glad you made the trip and will be following the trailer build. Truly, this is a project I find exciting, and I want to develop it fully.
Since my last post, I have been trialing various materials and designs for the wheel-spoke "blades" needed for nighttime power generation. I'm currently very close to the needed shape using clear mylar sheeting -- that's fine for the prototype, but the final version needs to quickly attach or remove, and must stow compactly and weigh very little. Semi-coated lycra is the leading candidate, attached with sewing hooks-and-eyes. I've come up with a promising "pocketed" design to take maximum advantage of available breezes, and it does turn and generate power, so progress is being made.
The e-Werk is ideally suited for this application because it can be attached temporarily (with o-rings) or permanently (zip-ties) to the trailer frame. I'll be mounting mine inverted (controls facing the ground) for better moisture and dirt-shielding and feeding the cables right into one of the rear panniers. I should have a photo-essay up before long, showing the ideal mounting and routing locations for the unit and harness.
The *new* SON28 you are choosing (as I run in the front wheel on my Nomad) has less drag than the SON28 Klassik I am using on the trailer, and would be a great choice for your build.
One of the surprises of the project is the trailer's utility for non-touring use. I had pondered using a BOB for this project, but as I mentioned over at bikeforums, a platform trailer like that is not ideal for my off-road use, thanks to limited ground clearance and the use of a small trailer wheel/tire. The tradeoff was using panniers for cargo. As it happens, the 40l+ capacity of the Ortlieb BikePacker Plus panniers with pockets is proving ideal for shopping and errands -- especially when combined with panniers on the bike. The short length and good ground clearance (as much as front panniers on lowrider racks) means I can negotiate curbs and other similar obstacles with ease and parking is much more convenient. The large wheel helps greatly in this regard also. I do think the trailer's dedicated rack can be improved (and Extrawheel are working on this at present), but even so, it offers additional cargo options including use of longitudinal or transverse dry sacks. Extrawheel recommend the rack load be limited to a maximum of 5kg, and the weight should be kept low and forward as much as possible, as with the loads in the panniers. This keeps the center of gravity low and forward, ensuring adequate tongue loads for improved handling.
I am test-loading and riding with a variety of cargo and with water. Bottled water (especially in square cross-section containers) is very convenient because it allows for maximum configurability and the weight calculations are dead-easy: One liter of pure water weighs one kilogram at sea level and room temperature (25C). At maximum, *each* pannier holds three 3.78l (1 USgal) bottles and three 1.5l bottles in the main compartment and one 2l bladder in the outside pocket. Total: 17.84l/kg per bag or 35.68 total in both bags on the trailer -- right at Extrawheel's stated 35kg weight limit.
The project is coming along nicely, and when I get each component a bit further along, I will post results and photos. I will also be posting photos of the trailer in action; it really is different in a positive way from other trailers I've used.
I'm looking forward to your thoughts and input along the way as well.
Best,
Dan.
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I am very excited to follow your progress. Thanks for the tips, I can't wait to see your pics.
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Hi Dan, I do have a question about the trailer itself. Does it track down hill without much sway. I saw a video a gentleman was having a hard time controlling the bike, and trailer down a hilly dirt path. Most of my touring is on pavement, since I live in the state Indiana. Also I have a rear tubus rack on my bike, do I have to remove the rack to hitch the trailer? I have found a company in the USA to get my extra wheel trailer. Here is the photo of the bicycle which will get the trailer.
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Hi King!
My, that is a lovely setup you have! Thanks for sharing a photo of such a nicely equipped tourer; it's a beaut!
I have limited time at the moment and my handling tests are not complete, but I can quickly say this:
The handling of the Extrawheel trailer is very much dependent on load distribution, and it is happiest to have the load placed as low and as far forward as possible. High and rearward is not good, and can cause the handling to decay quickly. Pavement is a more severe test in this regard than off-road or on dirt, because there is no loose surface to provide a degree of "slippage" at the tire contact patch and the surface is more consistent. On this last point, there are some paved surfaces that made the trailer feel less stable and I did see it tracking from side-to-side. In my case, this was on a highway shoulder that has been sloppily overlaid in a repaving, so it may well have been not the surface itself but the varying camber of the surface imparting a twisting moment to the trailer that resulted in momentary sway.
I saw a video a gentleman was having a hard time controlling the bike, and trailer down a hilly dirt path.
<nods> Yes, I have seen that too. I think what happened to him is much the same as forum member Pete (Il Padrone) encountered on his recent tour of Australia's Red Center: Ruts in the road caught the wheels and steered the bike. I tried the trailer by riding across an empty field that had been plowed, where the tractor's tires created ruts that then sun-dried into hummocks. I had no problem going across the ruts, but found going lengthwise, the trailer was "steered" independently -- just as the front wheel of my bike tried to do. The difference on the trailer was, I had no handlebars to correct it.
Another factor is the tires used, their pressure, and their mounting on the rims/trueness. Remember, the tires aren't supporting anywhere near the same load they would on a bicycle with load and rider, so pressures must be dropped according. I decided to see what would happen if I ran my 26x2.0 Duremes at the same 45psi/3.1bar pressure as on the Nomad, and the results were not good at all -- the trailer bounced wildly when hitting small bumps like driveway lips and such, and the tracking and stability were poor because of it Dropping the pressure to the 15-20psi/1-1.4bar range brought a real transformation on pavement and off-road. The trailer's tracking improved tremendously and the bouncing on small obstacles was largely eliminated; the trailer rode smoothly and silently. I am beginning to think less pressure yet may be the route to go, but I need to measure actual rim "drop" under various loads to hit the ideal of a 10-15% drop, then adjust from there. Counter to what one might think, rolling resistance remained low. Remember, these comments apply to a 26x2.0 (47mm actual section width/height) tire with a lot of air volume. If one equipped the trailer with, say, a 700x35C tire, then pressures would have to be raised accordingly to prevent impact damage to the rim. I also think an out-of-true tire or rim would be more apt to "steer" the trailer than it would a bicycle, but I want to investigate this further.
The reason I can't answer your question definitively at this point is I have not completed all my load testing with the variety of weights I will be carrying. I can say the unladen trailer tracks as if it isn't there, and this holds true with lesser weights also. Truly heavy weights approaching or at the trailers limit impart more influence on the handling, but I am not sure if it is simply that I am hauling more weight or if the weight directly affects the trailer's handling.
There is another factor as well, and one worth investigating further: The trailer's kingpin/pivot point is inclined, much like a bicycle's head tube, providing what amounts to "trail". It may seem obvious on reflection, but I think it is important: I think the trailer's handling will be best if equipped with the same tire width/profile as used on the bicycle so the kingpin head angle remains constant. If the trailer was equipped with a tire that varied largely from that of the bike -- say a bike with 26in wheels/tires hauling the trailer equipped with a 20in wheel or vice versa, then I think handling would be far less predictable.
The trailer is also sensitive to left-right load distribution, as noted by Extrawheel. I found the best results came from loading the trailer evenly, as Extrawheel instructs -- certainly within a kg or so from side to side. This keeps the weight effectively centered. If too much weight is carried on one side, there is a tendency for the trailer to impart a "lean" by loading the bicycle unevenly as well, and things get worse from there. This is where the containers of water have been so helpful in my trials; they are adjustable loads, and can be moved around in the bags to see how they affect handling.
I have built my own trailers in the past with success (they were two-wheel trailers with a cargo box and 16in wheels; max. capacity 57kg), and I put the most design time and effort into axle placement, since this largely determined hitch loading. If the hitch carried too little of the total weight, then the trailer wanted to "turkey trot" -- sway or shimmy from the pivot point of the kingpin or hitch. The same holds true for car-towed trailers. I have not yet induced that handing behavior in the Extrawheel, but I think this is the reason why the handling improves with weight low and forward; it is a reasonable assumption. It also shortens the moment arm between the mass (cargo) and the lateral/vertical pivots of the kingpin and rear q/r hitch.
As far as downhill performance goes, the acid test for me will be a downhill at various speeds on Green Hill here in Eugene, Oregon, my usual "test road" for such things. It is steep -- 12%-15% in places, and long enough for extended observation. I can look down and rearward in my eyeglass-mounted rearview mirror by tipping my head up, or I can affix my GoPro HD Hero2 camera to the rear of the bike or the trailer and review the footage after. This is still on my schedule, but I am turning my attention at present to the electronics and spoke-airfoil design. Overall, this is a big project and time-consuming.
I must note Extrawheel strongly suggest limiting downhill speed, and this seems like a Very Good Idea to me. I know from trials with my own trailers, at a certain point going downhill at high speed (in my case at nearly 100kph), they became markedly less stable and this stability was in part speed-dependent and also load-dependent.
Remember, like most bicycle trailers, the Extrawheel has no brakes, and there is a surge or push-surge effect caused by any unbraked trailer. Smooth pedaling is rewarded and so is smooth braking. For example, when I attached the Extrawheel -- loaded to capacity -- to my unladen Nomad, the bike didn't "feel" as burdened as it usually does when carrying the same weight in panniers on racks and handling was much less affected. The bike retained most of its unladen (nimble) handling characteristics. However, I was still accelerating and stopping the same overall mass, so the effect could be felt in slower acceleration and in extended braking distances/effort compared to the bare bike.
I don't think you'll have clearance problems using the Extrawheel with your Tubus rack. I am using mine with Thorn's 5mm-to-6mm rack adapters, so the rack supports are wider than yours will be and I have no clearance problems; the hub quick-release/hitch extends 30mm from the dropout face on each side; the trailer fork or tongue then snaps over it and is retained by spring tension (the fork width is adjustable and is set so it is 30mm less than the overall width across the hitch faces). If you have a new "Evo" design Tubus rack with investment cast lowers, there may be less clearance, since the eyelet mounts are effectively wider at that dropouts than with Tubus' earlier designs. The rear rack in your photo appears to the older "Klassik" Tubus Cargo design, so you should be fine.
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Dan.
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Thank you for the detailed info. I will take your advise, and suggestions and apply to my extra wheel.
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Hi All!
'Turns out the Extrawheel makes a dandy utility trailer. It was unexpectedly nice out today, and I wanted to get some pumpkins to boil down for pumpkin pie. Now Hallowe'en has come and gone, the stores are looking to reduce their stocks, so it was time to drop by the Corner Market and see what I could find. I knew my regular panniers wouldn't be enough to hold what I needed, so I got out the Extrawheel, put on the 40l+ Ortlieb BikePacker Plus panniers, and hitched it to the Nomad in similar cargo-bike attire.
I hit the jackpot; when I got home, I found the trailer was carrying 56lbs/25kg of pumpkins and the bike had a similar load. The bike and trailer handled well, and I managed a good bit of fully-loaded off-road riding down by the river and detoured onto the sidewalk to avoid some of the leaves piled in the bike path for next week's scheduled pickup. No problems; the trailer tagged along happily behind, full as full could be. Even had room for the camera tripod so I could take these photos with a self-timer.
My deer-hunting neighbor just dropped by with some venison, so it looks like tomorrow's dinner will be deer meat, harvest sweet corn, carrots, potatoes, and some big slices of pumpkin pie with whipped cream on top (and a few extra for the neighbors) -- thanks to some bicycle-trailer gleaning!
By the time I returned home, my MP3 player was charged as well, thanks to a temporary attachment of the e-Werk to the Extrawheel's SON28 dynohub. My community has recently banned plastic shopping bags, so the extra panniers on the trailer will make it possible to get a trolley-load of groceries in the store, load the panniers on check-out, then clip them directly on the bike and trailer, making for a week's shopping using neither car nor grocery bags. Kind of a nice solution for commuting on the same day as a grocery run.
Best,
Dan.
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Really fantastic pictures Dan and I can see the joy on your face. That is the kind of thing I get up to on the bike and it is amazing how much fun it is to accomplish something for "nothing" and also get a chance for a "free" ride thrown in as a bonus.
The extrawheel seems to be earning its keep and based on the results of your future testing I think one may finally make it my way.
Heading back home today (4 day trip) so time to break down the bikes into their bags and pack up all the bike goodies.
Andy
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venison and pumpkin pie man you live like a king even feeding the pesants ;D ;D
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Hows the project going?
Also do you think the nomads brakes will need upgrading to handle the heavier loads the carrier will allow?
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I take it you have given up on this one then.
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I take it you have given up on this one then.
No, not at all, but there have been problems I had not anticipated. I will move forward once they are resolved.
I have been in regular contact with ExtraWheel, and it seems mine is one of a small number of trailers with quick-release hitches that do not work well. This has delayed and now stalled my development and testing, and I was reluctant to update until I had the full word from ExtraWheel on the matter. I am very careful and rigorous in my testing (I do this on a contract basis for a number of manufactures, usually with non-disclosure agreements; this is an "open" review as agreed with ExtraWheel) and I won't report based on supposition, rumor, or without checking to see if problems I identify are isolated or widespread and if the manufacturer is committed to improvement/addressing problems that emerge. ExtraWheel tell me they have received 4-6 reports of similar problems this year to date. I am confident this is isolated; after all, the problem has not been previously reported, even by our Forum members who own earlier versions of the trailer (Il Padrone, for example).
ExtraWheel assure me they will be addressing the problem early in the New Year, and I hope to get some of the new batch of hitches soonest so I can report the problem solved and get on with my testing; after all, I have plans for using it on my big tour come Spring 2013, and will need to have it fully developed and sorted before departure.
Here are the details...
• The problem is in the JoyTech-supplied quick-release portion of the ExtraWheel hitch, and it affects the originally supplied hitch as well as the other two I purchased at the time as spares and for other bikes. The tolerances are very generous, resulting in a sloppy fit between the lever-operated cam and the end of the skewer in the hitch-cap, causing loss of secure holding of both the trailer and bicycle rear wheel. My Rohloff-hubbed Nomad requires the q/r skewer *not* be overtightened to prevent binding of the hub bearings. The result is these loose tolerances and relatively low clamping force allow the q/r lever to rotate fully (there is no "lever stop" as on other skewers) to the point where the lever can foul the chain.. As the lever rotates, it loses tension and under the torque induced by a pulled load, the tongue becomes mobile on the dropouts and handling degrades to the point where the lot is unridable. This problem first emerged as wear progressed and with use on very rough ground; it now occurs regardless of load or terrain. Since the trailer pulled well until the skewer's already large tolerances increased, I put the handling problems down to the q/r skewer-hitch. Because the skewer end-caps are bespoke items, I can't substitute a conventional skewer as a check.
My rigorous testing has identified further problems I have reported to ExtraWheel and they tell me they are researching solutions.
• The inside faces of the q/r-hitch are smooth which presents no immediate problem when used with reasonably high tension on vertical dropouts. However, it is a critical failing when used on ramped dropouts. Regardless of tension-induced clamping forces, there is inadequate friction to prevent pedaling torque from cocking the rear wheel of the bicycle in the dropouts with or without the trailer attached. The inside faces need embossing to better engage the outer faces of ramped dropouts. ExtraWheel is now aware of this problem as well, and I hope this change will be incorporated when the lever issue is addressed.
• There are problems with the accessory rack...
1) Mudguard clearance with the trailer's rack-mounted load results in insufficient clearance between the load and my rear mudguard (an SKS P55 atop 26x2.0 tires). To make the rack universal to fit up to 28" (700C) tires, ExtraWheel had to mount it relatively high above the tire, causing interference between mudguard and load when the recommended 13l Ortlieb dry sack I purchased with the trailer is mounted. If I keep the load high on the rack it will clear alright, but if it slips and/or the bike climbs an abrupt slope, the mudguard is fouled (see attached pic). ExtraWheel tell me they are working on the problem and will have a redesigned cargo rack. I suspect any trailer rack in this location will require the added clearance of the longer "29er"-specific tongue; there is simply not enough clearance with the "universal" (20"/26"/28"-700c) tongue recommended for my application.
2) The rack's lower attachment remains a weak point in my testing. The abrupt change in section width from tubing to flat stock is a problem, as is the use of a plastic spacer along the bolt stack at the trailer's lower-front mudguard mount. As a result, the rack can flex and fatigue at this stress riser, causing premature breakage of the rack tab and/or mounting bolt especially on rough roads. A lower rack attachment made of brazed steel tubing with an integral tubular steel spacer would fully address both problems and result in a much stronger, longer-lived Extrawheel rack.
3) Close spacing of the pannier-carrying frames results in paint-damaging friction between the trailer frame and the lower mounting points for Ortlieb bags equipped with QR-2 mounts. I think the solution here is to apply a protective film to the trailer frame as a barrier (perhaps something like Mactac's surface-protective film, which I am experimenting with on my own to reduce pannier hook/rack abrasion, see: http://mactac.com/ , or a competing automotive anti-abrasion film currently undergoing testing for this purpose by me).
ExtraWheel were brave to agree to my proposal for an open test and crowd-sourcing development of their trailer according to my proposal, and they are as eager to continuously improve it and broaden its appeal and application as I am. They are cooperative and have taken my testing and reported results to heart. I am confident if the q/r-hitch problems can be resolved and improved through all production runs and if the rack can be improved and recommended only for use with the longer available tongue, the trailer can be fully developed. I'm awaiting further developments from their end, and will pick up my own testing and development once these problems are resolved.
ZeroBike, you also asked...Also do you think the nomads brakes will need upgrading to handle the heavier loads the carrier will allow?
So far, the Nomad's Deore v-brakes (shod with Kool-Stop Salmon pads on non-CSS Rigida Andra rims) have been well up to the task of stopping the loaded bike-trailer combination. As with any similarly weighted load, braking distance is increased about 20% over riding unladen in my experience, and braking effort at the lever increases by a similar amount. The braking is determined by overall mass and by weight transfer. The trailer adds mass to the rear axle and reduces pitchover, both of which actually aid the rear brake's effectiveness (the front brake still provides the lion's share of braking due to weight transfer under braking). The brakes worked very well even on 14% downgrades with a 40kg load on the bike and another 25kg of bottled water in the trailer for testing purposes. These tests take time to do properly but so far, braking has not been problematic.
As with any trailer, there is a "surge effect" under braking that is quite different from what one feels when the mass is carried in panniers alone. This is especially noticeable with a loaded trailer attached to an unladen bicycle because bike handling is not as adversely affected as it would be with the same weight in panniers alone. Only a fraction of the additional mass is carried by the bike itself. Further, the trailer's mass is carried by the bike at axle height, far below the center of gravity for panniers. However, the mass is still "there" and becomes noticeable in pulling away from a stop and while braking and in other than steady-state riding. You can definitely tell it is there (built-in "hill"), but once up to speed, things feel surprisingly good...as if the bike were carrying only a moderate load on the rear rack in terms of handling.
I'll post updates as things develop at ExtraWheel's end, which will allow me to resume testing and development. Meanwhile, I'm also working on a larger trailer, as the second photo shows. Among other uses, this "Tandem Hauler" may result in more readily finding a stoker for the Biggest Bike in my stable. No plans for attaching the Big Red Trailer to the Nomad!
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan, How is your braking set up in the wet? ( You do get rain do you? ) Interestingly Andy B's & Fionas' Nomad X's that are for sale @ sjs have been equipped with Avid speed dial levers instead of Shimano, I wonder what the performance benefit may have been?
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( You do get rain do you? )
Oh, buckets and buckets of the stuff, Brummie, and snow on the ground at the moment! The storms come in off the Pacific and top the Coast range, then stall against the Cascades and dump their load of water right here on those of us living in the Willamette Valley. The little town of Mapleton west of here has often received well over 7ft/2.1m of annual rainfall, sending the Siuslaw River well over flood stage each year. My lawn looks like a sponge at the moment, covered with snow melting in even more rain. Quick! Send water wings and a snorkel!
As for braking...
I do ride in the rain, but remember, I use my Deore v-brakes with Tektro RL520 drop-'bar levers, so my setup isn't the same as one would have with straight or comfort 'bars. I usually brake from atop the hoods, and occasionally from the drops if I'm already there. Same for braking from the interrupter levers atop the 'bars; if I'm already there, but not out of necessity for leverage' sake.
Concern over wet-weather was the major reason why I passed on spec'ing CSS rims when I got the Nomad...there have been reports the CSS rims don't brake as well in truly sodden conditions, and this worried me. In the past, I had several pairs of Trek's Matrix rims that were extremely hard-anodized...a Brinnel embosser rated them like chromed steel...and they braked like it in the wet. I didn't want to repeat the experience. I had such stellar results with Sherpa's plain (non-CSS) Andras in the wet, it seemed wise to continue the positive experience with the Nomad.
I also use Kool-Stop Salmon pads exclusively, and I believe this is a key factor in my own good wet-weather braking. I first used the formula back in 1978, when the material was used in the pads Kool-Stop produced for Mathauser and I've stayed with it since. The pads cause very little rim wear and last a long time themselves; I have one set with over 28,000 miles on them and the original rims and both look good for considerably more use. They held up well for me even with extensive use on The Netherlands' sand roads, which were gritty in the extreme. I'm also very easy on equipment and seem to get years' more use than others out of a product. Rims last me forever so long as I stay away from Shimano pads, which are terribly abrasive and cause excessive rim wear with poorer stopping wet or dry in my experience.
In wet conditions I do ride the brakes lightly before an anticipated stop, and this makes a difference in shortening stopping distance for me, though the lot still does well stopping if I don't. Of course, wet braking is not as good as in the dry, increasing stopping distances overall by about 35% over dry conditions, and causing a slight judder at the limit, just before wheel lockup. One of the keys I've found to really effective wet-weather braking is generous toe-in of the pads...as much as 2.0-2.5mm does the trick if I'll be riding consistently in torrential conditions as when I was in Belgium.Andy B's & Fionas' Nomad X's that are for sale @ sjs have been equipped with Avid speed dial levers instead of Shimano, I wonder what the performance benefit may have been?
The SpeedDial levers in my experience can be swapped to operate either the front or rear brakes equally well, making them versatile in the event of failure far from replacement. Also, they are easy to install and setup and run smoothly. I can't speak for Andy, but I would expect these benefits might appeal enough for him to select these levers.
I hope this helps. I'm always up for braking discussions; same as with most other topics.
All the best,
Dan.
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Cheers Dan, very informative ! i think I'll try some of the Salmon pads out on my winter fixie.
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Hi Danneaux,
looking forward to the next set up updates to this thread.
I like the idea and I like more that you've initiated it and are ironing out all the issues
and improvements before I pull out my wallet ;)
I've been a dynamo hub fan for many years now and updated my Moulton APB's old Sturmey Archer
for a SonDelux a year or so ago. Still amazed every time my Edelux headlight wakes up the night.
Only recently invested in the E-werk and wished I had sooner as it would have made my Australia tour much more pleasant.
I'm currently building up a Surly Ogre touring bike and have ended up with an extra Son28 hub.
I've been using a Freedom Y-frame trailer but 2 wheels as you know are of limited use on off road conditions. The ExtraWheel trailer might be the ticket to my needs
I look forward to your updates with interest.
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looking forward to the next set up updates to this thread.
Me, too!
Hi Rif',
My progress developing and using the trailer has been at a standstill due to problems with all three of the q/r hitches I have for it, as detailed here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4953.msg29115#msg29115
The quick-release hitch that came with mine and the two spares I bought with it won't stay tight on my bike. With loose tolerances and no cam-over "stop", in use and with vibration and torque, the tightened q/r lever rotates on around to where it loosens and can foul the chain if the lever is on the right side. When this happens, the hitch-mounted trailer and the bicycle's rear wheel come loose in the dropouts, leading to instability and an inability to tow the trailer.
Extrawheel responded to my queries by email two weeks ago and say they are mailing two replacement hitches; an improved model may be available in 3-4 months. They have told me this q/r hitch problem affects a small number of users.
At present, I am also unable to use the 13l Ortlieb dry sack they sold for use on the trailer-mounted rack, as the bottom of the dry sack conflicts with the Nomad's SKS rear mudguard. Extrawheel say their feedback indicates it is working well and they don't intend to change it yet.
Since the trailer rack is key to development of the trailer, I will need to modify it to make it workable or purchase a "29er" hitch to gain needed clearance; I have not yet decided which route to go. I really need the trailer to be ready for my planned desert tour in June, as it is needed to haul my extra stores of water and food. I'm currently building up a Surly Ogre touring bike and have ended up with an extra Son28 hub. I've been using a Freedom Y-frame trailer but 2 wheels as you know are of limited use on off road conditions.
Yes, two-wheel trailers can work wonderfully well on pavement and even gravel, but do less well off-road or on very rough roads due to their width and side-by-side wheels. A two-wheel trailer turns a single-track vehicle (bike) into a tricycle planform and almost guarantees some wheel will hit an obstacle the other wheels miss. A one-wheel trailer puts things back in line, tips/pivots with the bike, is narrower, and solves a lot of problems on rough surfaces. That said, your spare SON28 could still be mounted on place of one of your Y-frame trailer's hubs and still work very well for smoother surfaces.I look forward to your updates with interest.
Thanks; I'll post updates as things develop. Meanwhile, I'm on my third generation of a small rectifier to power an LED taillight directly from the hub, so things are continuing in that direction.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
I am nearly finished modifying my Extrawheel trailer, and have learned a lot in the process. Since trailers are an alternative or supplement to panniers -- and this one carries panniers and is tailored for use with my Thorn Nomad -- it is time for an update:
Using the Extrawheel trailer rack with a racktop load? Then you also need the long “29er" fork for mudguard clearance
• With the standard-length fork on the trailer, everything clears fine until there is a load on the trailer rack -- the recommended 13l Ortlieb dry bag can strike the bike’s rear mudguard. These problems go away with the 12mm longer fork, and trailer handling is improved.
Rear mudflaps on the bike are a good idea when towing a trailer
• Although the trailer pivots are plain bushings made from oil-filled bronze, it is still desirable to keep them shielded from direct spray of water, dirt, and mud from the rear wheel, and a mudflap works well for this. The bushings stay cleaner and they require less lubrication because they are not subject to as much direct water spray or dust.
INCREASING VISIBILITY
Part 1: Reflectors
• The trailer really requires something to increase visibility at night. This is especially important when a load is carried on the trailer's cargo rack, because that load can hide or obscure the bicycle's own rear reflectors and taillight.
There is also a legal requirement. Here in the US, laws regulating bicycle safety equipment vary by state and are enforced unequally. In states that require a red rear reflector (or a taillight), I have been advised the attached trailer is also considered part of the bicycle and therefore is subject to the same laws and must display a reflector if the bicycle's own reflectors are hidden or otherwise obscured by the trailer.
To correct the problem, I fitted an SKS rear reflector to the trailer's mudguard. These are commonly included with SKS fenders sold in the Eurozone, but are unavailable in the US market or from SKS' American office. I sourced mine from a friend in Rotterdam.
The "Ride the World" and Nomad (Tuareg) figure on the Extrawheel fender are cut from black 3M Scotchlite. Black in the daytime, it turns a bright reflective gold color when car lights shine on it at night. I also added 3M Scotchlite spoke reflectors to the bike and trailer for added side visibility.
Part 2: Dyno taillight
Since I am running a SON28 dynohub in the trailer for charging, it may as well power a taillight. I chose a B&M Toplight Line Plus for its generaous reflector size and bright, prism-line optics to match the Nomad's, but there’s a snag: The hub produces AC current and the LED taillight requires regulated DC power. Normally, this is all sorted out by the circuitry in a headlight -- which the trailer doesn’t have, so I made my own. I designed and etched my circuit boards and soldered the needed rectifier and voltage regulator. I included several sub-circuits to smooth the power produced by the SON28 dynohub so the light does not flicker at low speeds. Though conversion and power losses are very low, I included a switch so I can cut power to the light when I wish to allow maximum charging.
I mounted the lot in my own waterproof housing on brackets made of solution heat-treated 7075 aluminum. Those brackets mount to threaded inserts I machined and fitted to the open ends of the Extrawheel rack in place of the original vinyl tube caps.
The standlight allows the taillight to remain lit even when the trailer is briefly airborne on rough roads. The supercapacitor keeps it lit for 4.5 minutes while at rest and includes an interrupter switch to turn the light off at will to avoid drawing unwanted attention when the bike is stopped or when stealth/wild camping.
Part 3: Daylight-visible 1-watt LED battery-blinky
To supplement the dyno-powered taillight, I cobbled a mount from a old reflector bracket to hold the Blackburn Mars 4.0 firmly in place.
Part 4: Flag
The Extrawheel trailer comes equipped with a high-viz yellow flag. My lighting illuminates the pennant at night, so it increases visibility at all times. On rough ground, the flag will sometimes whip enough to contact the mudguard with a loud clatter, and I’m concerned over time this could damage both ‘guard and flag. Shortening the mast by 12.7cm reduces the effective chord and stiffens it enough for silence in most use while remaining flexible enough to resist breakage. I’ll add a high-hysteresis collar to the mast to absorb shock and make contact silent in all circumstances. Shortening the mast moved the pennant down into my draft, so the flag catches less wind and flaps slowly even at speed. By happy coincidence, it also places the pennant at the same height as my black riding shorts, increasing contrast and visibility.
CHARGING AHEAD:
Part 1: Trailer as power source while riding
Where I travel alone and unsupported for extended periods in very remote areas, the bicycle's own dyno-charging system is not always sufficient to supply all my needs away from mains recharging, so I fitted the trailer with a modified BUMM e-Werk, powered by the SON28 dynohub. It uses a remote lead to allow charging away from the trailer (inside a pannier while riding, or inside the tent when in camp).
All hub wiring is in parallel for redundancy and reliability so either the lighting or charging circuit can fail and the other will remain in service. All wires are hidden to prevent damage and improve appearance. I used gold-plated miniature connectors to improve reliability while allowing individual components to be easily replaced or serviced and to quickly break-down the trailer for air transport.
Part 2: Trailer as power source in camp
Next, I’ll modify the trailer to charge my devices in camp while I sleep. My prototypes work perfectly, and I just need to finalize the design to work on the trailer. The solution is so deceptively simple I initially missed it.
OTHER ISSUES
Uh-oh; where’d the paint go? Solving pannier abrasion
The glass-filled lower nylon backing plates of my Ortlieb BikePacker Plus' panniers rubbed on the sides of the trailer frame, scuffed the paint finish, and would soon have worn through to the steel frame tubing. To prevent the problem, I constructed some nylon bands from bicycle reflectors. These bands serve as standoffs between the lower pannier mounting plates and the trailer frame. They also capture the light and charging wires without added zip-ties.
Q/R-hitch still needs improvement, and Extrawheel are working on it
The quick-release/hitch still needs improvement. The problems with the present model are twofold:
1) The q/r lever lacks a hard "bed-stop" so the lever can rotate completely around and self-loosen if the lever is tightened with relatively low torque, as required with Rohloff hubs to prevent end-loading and binding the hub bearings. The tolerances are also too loose, which contributes to the problem.
2) The inner faces need to be textured or knurled to provide a firm hold on ramped dropouts. Currently, the quick-release/hitch works alright on vertical dropouts, but is not secure on bicycles with ramped dropouts.
The replacement q/r-hitches Extrawheel sent me promptly under warranty work better than the ones I ordered with the trailer, but still need improvement.
Extrawheel have an evolutionary q/r-hitch design in development as I write this; they are committed to continuing improvement.
To prevent theft and allow recovery, the trailers need to be serially numbered for registration as one would register a bicycle. I’m adding a stamped serial number to mine so I can register it.
RIDE IMPRESSIONS:
The trailer is largely unnoticeable to the bike when towing unloaded. The biggest things I can notice are the occasional clatter of the flag mast against the mudguard on rally big bumps and the scrub/wheel hop of the trailer when testing with deliberately tight, high-speed turns where I don’t lean much. That’s about the only handling quirk I’ve noticed, and it took so effort to produce it.
With a load, you can feel a difference proportional to the load. Even though the bike isn't carrying all the load, it is towing it, and this affects acceleration, braking, and handling. Extrawheel place the load well forward on the trailer to weight the fork (tongue). While this makes for better handling, it also means a greater load on the bicycle's rear axle, and that can be felt when towing a heavy load. the bike's handling does change much as it does when riding with panniers, but not as much. You do have to allow for it, and it does take a period of adjustment; you can tell it is no longer an unladen bike.
There are some surfaces that affect trailer tracking. It does best off-road and on dirt and gravel, unlike most trailers. When on-road, there are certain surfaces that induce a bit of sway into the trailer, though it doesn't seem to affect the bike. I am still testing, but it seems to be independent of load and is triggered by a smooth surface with severe off-camber crowning or a smooth surface interrupted by undulations, as when tree roots heave the pavement. I am still investigating and plan to rig a camera to the rear bicycle rack looking backward so I can see what's going on.
The trailer does go airborne on a number of occasions, as the only suspension is in the tire. To that end, a user has to re-think tire pressures according to load and reduce accordingly. I’m finding for most reasonable loads, somewhere around 1.4bar/20psi is *plenty*, perhaps too much. I am still experimenting for the ideal pressure at a variety of loads. Running at appropriate (low) pressures reduces hop while making little of any difference to rolling resistance. Even fully loaded, the trailer tires carry only the load of a single bike wheel/tire.
Compared to other one-wheeled, sled-type platform trailers I’ve tried the Extrawheel has some advantages:
• It is lighter.
• It is shorter overall, making for easier parking.
• It is no wider than the bike, so there are no “corners" to catch and it is comparatively easy to tow in tight quarters without snagging, even with panniers mounted. 40l panniers and a 13l dry bag on the rack give 53l capacity, enough for most use.
• The Extrawheel can carry only panniers and a small rack-top load if equipped with the optional rack. This requires a more disciplined approach to packing, and is not as versatile for hauling large or odd-shaped gear.
• Ground clearance is comparable to a low-rider front rack. This, coupled with the short wheelbase makes for little chance of high-centering. Lean angles are outstanding (very high)
• It can be quickly reduced to a very small package. When reduced down,it packs smaller than any other trailer.
• The larger, bike-sized wheel prevents it from falling into potholes and such and makes the ride on rough ground almost unnoticeable wrt drag. Small wheels tend to catch and snag, and this can be felt in the bike when towing. On the other hand, larger wheels are much heavier and this can be felt in slower acceleration. The larger diameter more than makes up for this off-road and on rough surfaces.
• The trailer follows the bike very closely and is impossible to jackknife when going forward. It’s “head tube” angle is such that it also leans into corners, which aids maneuverability. On the other hand, the same maneuverability going forward makes it extremely difficult to push the bike and trailer backwards when parking and maneuvering off the bike.
• Compared to even my own cargo-box two-wheeled trailers, the one-wheel trailer has it all for off-road maneuverability and can lean with the bike. Two-wheel cargo trailers place the load above the axle centers for a much higher center of gravity, and the double track means at least one wheel always hits an obstacle the bicycle can miss. The smaller 16in wheels also fare much less well off-road than the Extrawheel's 26-incher.
• My goal is to also use the trailer to provide touring cargo capacity, power, and lighting for a rental or cheaply purchased bike on arrival at a destination and so avoid added expense or damage compared to flying with my own bike. The reduced trailer and bags will fit in an astonishing small container and it can be as cheap to buy a bicycle on arrival (and perhaps sell it on departure) as it is to ship one’s own. The trailer would also be a nice way for a companion to tour with me using their own bicycle -- even a sporting bike otherwise unequipped for touring and lacking its own racks and lighting/charging systems. With two panniers at 40l capacity and a 13l dry bag and cargo limit of ~31kg, it is possible.
It is important to note -- as with any trailer -- the need to appropriately match load to bike. Generally, very light bikes with small-diameter tubing in the rear triangle will be less-suited to towing heavier loads, so weight should be adjusted accordingly if a lightweight road bike is used. An MTB, my touring tandem, or the Nomad have much more robust construction and will be less affected by the trailer’s mass. I will likely use mine most on rough roads and to carry extra food and water. My two 10 MSR Dromedary water bags weigh a bit more than 20l/44lb when full, and I can feel the difference in the trailer’s handling and in the bike's. Even though a trailer carries weight (mostly) on its own wheels, the bike still has to cope with the same mass when accelerating and stopping, so gearing and brakes are affected accordingly and steering to a lesser degree.
If you place some or the bulk of your touring load on a trailer, it can be parked at your destination and the unladen bike ridden with greater ease. Except on really flat, smooth surfaces, the unattached Extrawheel trailer is not very stable standing alone and is happier laid on its side.
• The trailer attaches by setting the fork 3cm narrower than the q/r-hitch ends, then spreading the arms apart; spring action holds the bronze pivot bushings on the spherical stainless steel hitch ends. It is really, really difficult to attach or detach the trailer if you're alone and the bike and trailer are both loaded and there is nothing to lean either against. There are several tricks to make the process easier:
• Lean the bike against something. Lacking that, a kickstand or Click-Stand are invaluable if you're alone.
• Attach the trailer to the bike when both are unladen, then load the bags on each.
• Attach one side of the trailer fork, then you only have to deal with the other arm.
• Better yet: Attach the fork alone to the bicycle's dropout q/r-hitches, *then* attach the trailer to its fork at the kingpin.
All of this is a bit harder if you have a Rohloff hub with external shift-box, as the trailer fork wants to snag the click-box under tension. The solution is to engage the left (shifter) side first, then attach the right side.
• On the downside, this trailer -- any trailer -- is not the same as riding only a bike with panniers. It requires some effort to remember the extra length when maneuvering in tight places, and it can make access to and parking in public restrooms impossible.
• While it is always nice to have the option in an emergency, I really can’t see much call for the trailer as an emergency replacement front wheel. Front wheels are evenly dished and therefore sturdy and fail infrequently. For real emergency use, it might be better if there was an option for a wider trailer frame that could take a rear wheel for a derailleur bike, complete with cassette. As it stands, the trailer does provide a source for a second tire, tube, and rim if needed to repair the bike’s rear wheel.
• The trailer does impose a speed limit on the bike. With a 25kg load in the trailer, I found going downhill at speeds faster than 60kph/37mph, the whole train begins to sway in a sort of lateral sine wave, as if someone were pushing the bike gently but firmly from side to side in the middle -- completely unlike a shimmy. Extrawheel and other trailer makers warn of this, and -- yes! -- it is a good idea to limit speeds when towing, just you would when pulling a caravan with a car.
Finally, Extrawheel have been outstanding about warranty and shipping issues, responding immediately and never quibbling over a legitimate claim. When I experienced a problem with the q/r hitches and explained and illustrated th eproblem, they immediately sent me hand-checked replacements and moved up their campaign to improve and refine them with a new design. When I sent for the longer fork, I also ordered a spare flag, which was broken in-transit. I simply sent photographs of the damage and a copy of my Postal damage report and they sent a replacement immediately. The trailer has a five-year warranty much like SON and Ortlieb products, and Extrawheel's swift responsiveness is reassuring.
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To this point, the Extrawheel Trailer Electification Project has been a great success. It powers its own taillight and produces electricity reliably even at low speeds. I plan to take it farther, and will report back with updates.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
As a side note, I have decided to set and leave the Extrawheel trailer's B&M e-Werk on the equivalent of a standard USB setting (within tolerances): 5vdc (actually a measured 4.94vdc) @ 0.5A/500mA.
This will make it automatically compatible with the gadgets charged by my Tout Terrain The Plug 2+ with PAT cable, and will prevent me doing something dumb when I am tired and wet and hungry and stoopid and plugging-in and frying a vital gadget 'cos I forgot to re-adjust the power settings.
That said, future work will go into seeing if I can safely boost current to 1.0A and thus halve charging times. The e-Werk dial certainly supports this; I just need to check what comes out the other end, and at what speeds, using my testing equipment before risking some needed on-tour component. I also hold hope of injecting at least a trickle charge into my netbook batteries. If I can get past the charging trigger voltage, I think it may be possible.
More updates as they become available.
Best,
Dan.
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If ever there is an apocalypse and mankind is in peril, I want to be in your gang Dan.....
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If ever there is an apocalypse and mankind is in peril, I want to be in your gang Dan.....
Agreed -- we all need to figure out our Mad Max names.
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Hi All!
In the press of time as my tour-departure date looms, I decided to post a video of my latest Extrawheel-as-windmill prototype here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwGvKlMBftc I say "prototype", but all is complete except the final detachable vane construction.
The answer to rigging this was so simple I'd overlooked it initially -- simply invert the trailer on its hitch(es) and prop the lot up with a Click-Stand on the leeward side.
The lot is complete except for the vane materials and design. I will be using an elastic membrane for the final design. These will attach and remove quickly and also have a chord that is dynamically responsive to wind loads, speed, and direction, making them much more efficient at all speeds than the prototype rigid vanes shown.
The trailer has no trouble charging AA/AAA cells in even slight wind, thanks to the SON28 dynohub and my modified B&M e-Werk. The B&M Toplight Line Plus runs with such low losses from the voltage rectifier/regulator/current smoother I made, it doesn't really matter if it is on or off, so I have been leaving it on as a minimal power indicator.
The wheel needs an extra boost to overcome initial startup torque, so in very low winds, a hand-start is necessary; once started, the wheel continues to spin nicely so long as wind is present and the angle of approach is anywhere near ideal. Anything over about 8kph/5mph starts the wheel up on its own and continues to spin, generating power at the other end of the e-Werk cord. As noted previously, I have mine set for 5vdc @ .5A/500mA, but it is adjustable for both voltage and current.
More updates to follow as I refine the vane design.
Best,
Dan.
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don't understand the tech stuff Dan but certainly a touch of genius simple idea that no one ever thought about before well done now lets hope the guys at extrawheel are taking note. ;)
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Hi Dan,
I have got it! :o
If I turn my Bicycle upside down and fit your litte blades to the spokes my Bike can charge up my batterys once I fit a Dynamo hub to my front wheel.
Thanks ;D
Hi Dan :o you can do this Too ! with your bike as you can have Two Wind Turbine's
Great Idea 8)
Pete
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Hi Dan,
I have got it! :o
If I turn my Bicycle upside down and fit your litte blades to the spokes my Bike can charge up my batterys once I fit a Dynamo hub to my front wheel.
Thanks ;D
Hi Dan :o you can do this Too ! with your bike as you can have Two Wind Turbine's
Great Idea 8)
Pete
I was just thinking the same thing!
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I was just thinking the same thing!
Yes I think it would work great :) ZeroBike!
Pete ;D
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Dan - fantastic! I have only just found this post. I can't believe that I have not been keeping up with it! This is a great project! Thanks!
I did look into the wind vein idea but have done no testing so far. I am interested too in this for 'bike-without-trailer' night time power generation. The Raven Tour does seem very stable when inverted to change tyres etc (I have Thorn Comfort Bars fitted). I got as far as getting hold of some material samples, mainly various weights of tent fabric, but have not yet ordered any materials. I await with interest your findings on the best material to use for the veins. The inclusion of an elasticated 'give' in the vein is a great idea for variable wind conditions. I did think about that with the inclusion of some elastic and hook arrangement to attach to the spokes. I did not think however of using an elastic material or 'membrane'. I guess the material is a secret as you will soon be registering the patent, trade marking it, and manufacturing the 'Danneaux's Original Wind Kit' ;) Kickstarter? I will sign up!
Looking forward to your progress reports!
A quick aside: do you know when the ExtraWheel was last updated in respect to quality of build, fittings and paint?
Cheers
Richard
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Dan,
Extrawheel-as-windmill
You know, of course, that this, ah, completely inverts the state of being "wind-bound", until now the bane of all canoeists? :-)
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Hi Richard!
The Extrawheel Project is far from dead, just resting at the moment.
Extrawheel kindly sent me two more replacement quick-release hitches, which I am in-process of testing now. They have much-improved tolerances and what appears to be a solid stop.
One problem I ran into using the Extrawheel on the extremely rough terrain where I have used it is a conflict between the attachment forks (standard and long) and my SKS P55 rear mudguard. When the Extrawheel bounced enthusiastically or the terrain was such the bike and trailer formed a \/, the trailer fork fouled the 'guard attachment bolts and broke the 'guard itself. I ordered a replacement set (USD$100 delivered...shipping costs ensured a damage-free delivery) from SJS Cycles and it is awaiting installation pending further testing. Still working on this issue; this would not be a problem if the Extrawheel was used in the same conditions on a bike with no rear mudguard.
As for the vane material, I've now concluded my basic materials testing using a number of flexible membranes including some made by Goodyear. The hot ticket for spoke vanes has so far proven to be urethane-backed lycra (same material commonly used in helmet covers), but it is very hard to obtain a regular supply. My regular fabrics supplier (The RainShed: http://www.therainshed.com/ ) doesn't always carry it. Absent the urethane-backed stuff, regular lycra will do, though the 8.5oz/yd stuff has proven most durable for impermeable while retaining the other needed qualities.
The material is only half the battle; the shape is important in a static state and as a chord under wind-load...you want "scoopage" but not to excess. Catenary cuts help here, aided by the wedge shape of the spoke lacings. Sufficient "capture" of the wind is critical for efficiency.
The reason why vane shape is so important is the nature of the dynohub's higher initial starting torque. It requires a boost to start and once running does fine. It is self-starting if the wind is brisk or steady, but it can be an issue in very gentle breezes or if the wind waxes and wanes in the night. Wind direction can change, so the vanes also need to capture from either side. If you try this, do use caution in propping the inverted bike or trailer. Lateral wind-loads on the vaned wheels could cause the lot to turn turtle unless solidly braced with a Click-Stand, stick, or other means.
Just as important is the means for attachment. The large hooks from hook-and-eye sets proved idea for quick attachment and release from the spokes, but they (like all methods that are spoke-based and temporary or non-adhesive) allow creep toward the hub under load, so a tether 'round the tire is necessary as well. It is not as complicated or time-consuming as it sounds to attach the vanes; the lot can be done in about two minutes from start to finish. I'm refining the design so it will remain lightweight, pack small, and deploy or store quickly. Nearly there.
The project continues apace at DanneauxLabs. A quick aside: do you know when the Extrawheel was last updated in respect to quality of build, fittings and paint?
Yes, as I recall, except for remaining old stock at vendors, all Extrawheel Voyager trailers sold new in 2012 have the new design. The key word to look for is "Voyager".
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After extensive testing, I can say having access to the equivalent of another bikes'worth of dynocharging capacity is a dream come true, especially so when it operates while I'm sleeping!
All the best,
Dan.
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Interesting! Thanks for the update!
I have been looking for the vane material you mentioned and having trouble finding it over here. Thanks for this post - I am intrigued! Have you considered a 'velcro' arrangement? (or is that what you call 'hook-and-eye'?)
One problem I ran into using the Extrawheel on the extremely rough terrain where I have used it is a conflict between the attachment forks (standard and long) and my SKS P55 rear mudguard. When the Extrawheel bounced enthusiastically or the terrain was such the bike and trailer formed a \/, the trailer fork fouled the 'guard attachment bolts and broke the 'guard itself.
I am surprised by this. Even with the extended long attachment bar I would have thought it would be sufficient for most off-road situations. You said that you had cycled across a ploughed field to test the ExtraWheel? Are you sure you were not riding perpendicular to some really big furrows for this to happen? ;D
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Hi Dan,
my wallet was finally in a position for me to order my Extrawheel trailer.
I grabbed their deal with the Ortlieb rear roller classics in yellow matching my Ogres panniers.
To get free postage I had to grab some other bits and bobs so ordered the upper rack and its optional Ortlieb drybag. I added a couple of spare sets of the rubber seals (described as protective caps), a medium Ortlieb first aid kit and Ortlieb shower valve, Ortlieb water sack and a quick release.
I got the 29+ trailer legs and some trailer nuts of 10x1 which I think is the correct size for the Ogres frame holes on the dropouts. The spare QR was just in case I ever wish to use it with another bike.
Next pay I'll do a bike24 order and get the trailer an E-Werk and probably a Mondial tire to match whats on the bike, as well as spare tubes and sundries.
I'm hoping it'll be ready to trial whilst enjoying a Western Australia south coast tour this coming mid March.
How goes your experiments with your trailer.
All foibles ironed out now?
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Well Extrawheel trailer with Ortlieb Rear Roller Classics, have hit Sydney seven days after ordering them.
This is good going coming from Poland (Europe) where generally the postage is fairly pedestrian as is the US.
I imagine another week now to get from New South Wales to over to Western Australia.
My bike24.net order for E-werk has been made and will be slowly making its way from Germany.
I included in the order a couple of Schwalbe Mondials in 50-622 which are 700c x 2.00.
They are folding tires, with one for the trailer (matching the Ogres wheels/tires) and one folding for a spare with three tubes to match.
I always like to carry two tubes and a folding tire when I tour.
I took the opportunity to order an oil change for my Rohloff, though at only 500km, it has a way to go before its due for its first oil change.
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Hi Rif'!
All congratulations on the arrival of your Extrawheel and the order for other things on the way. I found EW's shipping to be surprisingly fast, as well. Nicely packed, too. The finish and frame build quality on mine was equal to that on a quality bicycle frame.How goes your experiments with your trailer.
All foibles ironed out now?
As a charging and camera platform, the trailer has met all expectations. The extra charging capacity is just what I needed and works well for my requirements.
As for the other foibles...
Being winter here, I haven't used the trailer much recently. At last use, I still had the problem with the trailer fork (tongue) fouling the lower mudguard stay bolts on my rear 'guard on both the Nomad and my 700C-wheeled bikes in certain circumstances. If the fork came straight back parallel to the bike's rear wheel, I wouldn't have the problem, which comes in two instances:
1) When there is a sharp break in terrain where the rear wheel of the bike drops sharply below both the trailer wheel and bicycle's front wheel. I don't envision it occurring with any usual paved or gravel road use. Riding off a curb (which I don't do) might have the same effect.
2) On really rough roads and truly off-road, I found the trailer could occasionally bounce high enough for the fork to hit the mudguard stays. I wouldn't have thought it possible if it hadn't happened to me; other users don't seem to be affected similarly.
Contact between trailer and 'stay bolts eventually cracked my mudguard, requiring an expensive replacement.
The two replacement quick-release hitches Extrawheel kindly sent me have far tighter tolerances than the original that came with the trailer or the ones I purchased as extras. I do wish they had knurled contact faces. It is not an issue when used with vertical dropouts, but remains problematic on my bikes with ramped dropouts.
Despite packing my load of water low and forward in the panniers, the Extrawheel did sometimes wiggle-woggle on me. It wasn't a shimmy per se, but more like a tail-wagging-the-dog effect I could feel through the Nomad's frame. It was not consistent or deliberately repeatable.
I still like the Extrawheel trailer very much, but I need a solution to prevent it contacting the mudguard and I also need to suss out the source of the occasional handling problem. I look forward to your ride reports with it, Rif' and wish you all the best. If your experience is like the majority, I think you'll be well pleased.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
with regards to the wiggle woggle, you might find interesting:
http://www.threewheeling.net/extrawheel-voyager-trailer/
I'd also point you at a few comments made in the Australian Cycling Forums which you've seen.
In the Extrawheel thread; fellow Thorn Cycling Forum member has made a couple of pertinent comments on his experiences with packing lighter and bulkier items on the trailer and heavier ones in the bikes rear panniers which I'm going to take on board.
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46034
I found them interesting and initially confronting as I bought the trailer mainly as a water hauler in my initial picturing of its use with its charging as a secondary benefit.
However it didnt take me too long to realise, I'd only have to make an adjustment to my strategy by putting my waterbags in the bikes rear panniers adding what would have gone in there, to my trailer.
A benefit of this is less worry about water leaks in the place I wanted to keep my laptop and camera gear.
I just have to hope I spec'd my rear bike wheel strong enough going with the Rohloff 36 spoke optioned hub and Sapim CX-Rays (which aren't usually spec'd for a touring machine).
I went with the Sapims and Dyad rims in an attempt to counter balance the over all weight of the heavy Surly frame, hub gearing and dynamo hub.
I was told the Rohloff combined with Alpine 3's wasnt an option due to the thickness of the Alpines at their elbow butting (2.3mm?)
The bikes wheels now have over 500km's on them with no signs yet of any issue.
I'm hoping my two 10 liter Ortlieb waterbags wont be the straw that broke the camels back.
I wont be carrying them willy nilly but only as needed but thats fairly likely for any tours of duration here in Western Australia.
Once the trailers up and running and been tested as up to the job, I'll be back in touch to talk about the "sails" or windcatchers you've made up to make your wheel spin when the trailers inverted upside down.
I really like the idea and see the potential for charging whilst immobile and sleeping.
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The trailer arrived safely.
I found out the hard way that 2 inch tyres (Mondial) dont fit under the mudguard which had to be removed.
I've temporarily utilised a Big Apple of 2.35x700c.
I made the mistake of getting the standard sized QR.
I need an over sized trailer nut skewer.
I cant try out the trailer until I reorder and receive one
E-werk on its way from Germanys bike24.net with some Rohloff oil and tyres & tubes
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/Picture137_zpsc7f37f6a.jpg)
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Hi Rif'!
Just delighted to see you Extrawheel has arrived and is looking good, especially with the colorful bags. It looks good!
Boy, that fat-tired 700C wheel really fills up the space. I *think* you could use a sectioned mudguard rearward of the rack mount and use the Ortlieb sausage roll on the rack to achieve coverage over the tire at that point. Just a thought if you still need coverage with the larger-section tire.I made the mistake of getting the standard sized QR.
Oh, what frustration! So near and yet so far. I'm sorry. It must be agonizing to have it so close to ready but not. 'Hope the replacement arrives soon for you.
Reaching one post further back, you said...with regards to the wiggle woggle, you might find interesting:
http://www.threewheeling.net/extrawheel-voyager-trailer/
I really do find this interesting, Rif'! I was never able to pin down the intermittent woggle on mine, and look forward to trying it again before I replace the Nomad's cracked rear 'guard (the spare sits at the ready, but no use replacing it till I try the trailer again else I risk another breakage). My woggle was inconsistent, but I can surely see what the threewheeling folks were up against, and it sounds as if they tried all the logical solutions. I also adjusted my fork tension from spot-on to slightly loose and a bit tight and noticed no difference in behavior -- it was just too inconsistent to nail down.
I'm also very interested in the packing recommendations. Like you, I put a 10l MSR Dromedary in each trailer-mounted pannier and like you, this was a primary reason for the purchase (desert touring). I'll try swapping the water to the bike's panniers and see f more solid contents make a difference wrt trailer handling. I'd love to try it tomorrow, but the weather isn't very conducive to good data collection at the moment.
If you do put the MSR Dromedaries in your bags, let me add the caution that I found water will express itself through the walls of the bag over time and rough roads. There was no liquid, rather it was more of a misting or light weeping that resulted in humid conditions inside the Ortliebs.
I'm very much looking forward to how the lot works for you and wish you all the best in your own development. I found the e-Werk mounted very nicely on the mudguard once I detached the original mounting bracket and reused the screw. If the fat 700C tires prevent that mounting for you, there are still options for mounting it to the trailer's "chainstay" using the included rubber mounting bands, just ahead of the pannier mounts.
As for the wind vanes, my prototypes have really worked well. I have some urethane-coated lycra on backorder that should be just the ticket for detachable vanes (you wouldn't want them while traveling, only while at rest in camp). The wheel requires a bit of extra effort to spin from rest, but requires very little wind thereafter. I found vanes on every "V" were just about ideal for self-starting in low wind, yet allowed sufficient pass-through to keep the wheel spinning nicely at higher velocities.
Best,
Dan.
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Reaching one post further back, you said...I really do find this interesting, Rif'! I was never able to pin down the intermittent woggle on mine, and look forward to trying it again before I replace the Nomad's cracked rear 'guard (the spare sits at the ready, but no use replacing it till I try the trailer again else I risk another breakage). My woggle was inconsistent, but I can surely see what the threewheeling folks were up against, and it sounds as if they tried all the logical solutions. I also adjusted my fork tension from spot-on to slightly loose and a bit tight and noticed no difference in behavior -- it was just too inconsistent to nail down.
I'm also very interested in the packing recommendations. Like you, I put a 10l MSR Dromedary in each trailer-mounted pannier and like you, this was a primary reason for the purchase (desert touring). I'll try swapping the water to the bike's panniers and see f more solid contents make a difference wrt trailer handling. I'd love to try it tomorrow, but the weather isn't very conducive to good data collection at the moment.
I found that some luggage load adjustments cured my wiggle. It was always something spurred by sealed roads with a rythmic undulation, and only at certain speeds (20-35kmh).
If you do put the MSR Dromedaries in your bags, let me add the caution that I found water will express itself through the walls of the bag over time and rough roads. There was no liquid, rather it was more of a misting or light weeping that resulted in humid conditions inside the Ortliebs.
I have not found this problem with the MSR, but on the other hand I found the Ortlieb 10L bag to be very fiddly as regards tightening the large cap. Frequently I opened the pannier to find a lot more than "misting". Usually just a cup of water, but it was a nuisance. I'd much prefer the MSR Dromedary.
I'm very much looking forward to how the lot works for you and wish you all the best in your own development. I found the e-Werk mounted very nicely on the mudguard once I detached the original mounting bracket and reused the screw. If the fat 700C tires prevent that mounting for you, there are still options for mounting it to the trailer's "chainstay" using the included rubber mounting bands, just ahead of the pannier mounts.
For mounting the E-werk, eventually the rubber band broke. A much more secure replacement has been the long cable-tie.
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I
For mounting the E-werk, eventually the rubber band broke. A much more secure replacement has been the long cable-tie.
Hi IP,
Thanks for the tip.
I shall utilise cable-ties on both the trailers E-werk and also use your suggestion for the bikes E-werk as well.
I've recently been looking at my Garmin Edge 800's rubber bands and surmised that they are degrading so am considering alternatives.
They are probably a year old now at least, so I'm not complaining about their longevity, but its an issue easily overlooked until the day you notice your unit missing off the bike.
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Well my Extrawheel Quick Release skewer has just arrived in the mail after appox 14 days from dispatch.
Pretty fair for European post but nailbiting just the same due to the frustration of having a new trailer and an inability to tow it anywhere.
No signs of textured ends Dan was hoping for by way of extra grip.
The Ogres are infamous for needing a very strong QR to stop their rear wheel moving in their horizontal dropouts so it'll be with some trepidation my initial trial tow takes place.
Busy day today, but if I get some time this evening I'll try to get a quick jaunt in on the bike/trailer combo and report in on my findings.
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Good deal, Rif'; very much looking forward to your report.
I may mill some serrations on the back sides of my q/rs and see if that helps when used on a bike with ramped, horizontal dropouts. Dunno why they don't come with them.
Glad you at last have all you need for a test ride. I usually start with a bit of caution when trying something new, then add demands in layers so I can see how it goes and catch any problems early while they're small. Best of luck in the venture!
Best,
Dan.
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Extrawheel skewer gave up on its second usage.
The first attempt to tighten failed to stop the rear wheel from twisting in my Ogres dropouts.
In the second attempt the Nut end didnt fail but the "tightening" end of the QR pulled off the threaded rod to the detriment of the minimal thread that was evident.
I'm fairly unimpressed with the design with regards how much thread is holding on the QR end as well as the smooth contact surfaces supposed to hold the "nuts" to the dropouts.
I have had other issues.
Despite buying the "extra length" 29er forks, they didnt play well with my Gilles Berthoud stainless fenders or more to the point, the stays.
When attached, the trailer "forks" were approx 1 inch below the fender stays:
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06119_zpsf959a11d.jpg)
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06118_zps917dd008.jpg)
I've redrilled my stay holes upward to see if there is any improvement:
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06140_zps1b2f169e.jpg)
My plan is to now machine my tuggnuts, which align the rear wheel in the horizontal dropouts.
I need to remove the uppermost "bottle openers" to allow trailer nut attachment to the dropout provided 10x1mm frame holes.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06142_zps6b69a563.jpg)
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I'm a little further along in that Ive moved my Gilles Berthoud fender stays upward to allow for some trailer articulation.
I"m hoping a bit of red reflective tape will hide the previous stay attachment holes.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06140_zps1b2f169e.jpg)
Trailer now has 13 inches of upward articulation
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06151_zpsac2844e3.jpg)
I've given up on Extrawheel QR skewers (and waiting on their email replies) so I've utilised my Ogres frame dropout holes to attach trailer nuts to after having dremeled off the upmost "bottle openers" from my "tug nuts" (these hold my wheel straight in horizontal dropouts).
I also had to dremel off the bolt heads I found to fit the somewhat rare (here locally) 10 x 1mm pitch bolts, as I couldn't get my hub into the dropouts otherwise.
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC06155_zpseb02cf07.jpg)
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Hi Rif'!
Thanks so much for the update on your own Extrawheel experience. You've thought out the modifications carefully and executed them very well...the Tug nuts look as though they came direct from the factory this way.
I think you are spot on with the 13 inches of vertical trailer travel. This is exactly where I ran into trouble. ..the "waist" of the attachment fork needs to be wider to clear mudguard/fender stays and drawbolts. When the rear wheel of the bike is in a hole (as when crossing a drainage) and the trailer hits a bump, it can surely approach this sort of articulation. I think you made a sound decision to allow this much clearance for your stays.
Sorry you had to re drill the HB fender; I know that hurt.
<nods> Yes, the Extrawheel skewers are surely a weak point in the design. They need to be constructed like conventional internal cam skewers, just with the hitch nubs included. If they could do that with knurled faces and reasonable tolerances, the hitch problem would be resolved. Redesign the fork with wider clearances at the midpoint and that problem is resolved as well. It is as though the lot were designed primarily for fenderless MTBs rather than for touring/expedition touring bikes which often use mudguards.
I'm on tour in Europe at the moment but look forward to tackling some of these issues myself upon my return.
All the best,
Dan. (...who is really looking forward to hearing how this works for you)
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I'm on tour in Europe at the moment but look forward to tackling some of these issues myself upon my return.
Now I've heard every excuse for slacking off!
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Now I've heard every excuse for slacking off!
It's true. He is on tour in Europe.
- Dave
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You just made my day, week, and year with that, Dave! ;D ;D ;D
Came at a great time, too!
Many thanks,
Dan.
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It's true. He is on tour in Europe.
Are those the people Dan met in Transsylvania?
And a technical question we can discuss after Dan returns: did he, in his opinion, on most days in Europe (of which Turkey is NOT a part), see enough sunshine to charge devices without recourse to the plug in the wall?
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Almost too much sunshine in Serbia, Andre. Temperatures on the road peaked at 51°C ( officially 44°C ambient according to Serbian radio in the town I rode through) and went through better than 8 liters of fluid/day. Yes, it made the solar panel very happy.
The little Joos Orange solar panel with 5400 mAh accumulator battery stayed charged in the sun very nicely. It still charged on cloudy days and in the wet (It is submersible). On sunny days, it took a full 12 hours to charge from completely flat to completely full. I have a second one at home and wish I had brought it as well so I could have swapped off between the two. I lacked the ultimate capacity I would have hoped for in my very heavy, high demand smartphone use. For more ordinary needs in generally good weather, I think it would have been fine.
The Golden rule that applies here is to refill the solar charger in daytime and use it only at night to recharge gadgets. Otherwise, one quickly falls behind the curve.
In this case, I used the Joos Orange as a fallback option, partly for time and partly for capacity. My Samsung Galaxy S4 smartphone uses a 2.0A quick charger and that takes the 2700mAh battery from flat to full in a bit over two hours. The Joos Orange has a standard USB 2.0 output of 5vdc @ 500mAh, so it takes 4x longer to charge than the Samsung 2.0A mains - powered quick charger.
I also brought an Anker 20,000 mAh storage battery with 3 USB "smart" charging ports that sense and supply current at the maximum charging rate allowed by the device. I found results with it did indeed match the dedicated Samsung mains quick charger. Figuring losses (the Anker unit is high efficiency as these things go at ~73%), I can charge the phone just under 6 times with it, and as fast as usual.
I also took a spare, fully charged 2600 mAh phone battery for a quick swap when/as needed. I've used the phone heavily on this trip including for non continuous navigation and for journaling with html output and photo/video editing so my demands were greater than usual.
Yes, on days with consistent full sun in most practical use of my smartphone, I could have gotten by on the Joos alone and gone outlet free, even though I didn't choose to do so. In more typical weather and my typical use, I do think I'd want to take my second Joos Orange to be truly independent of mains power in mostly good weather. I think more frugal use and consistent good weather would allow one to do this with a single Joos unit, but not under high demand as in my current phone use, and not if there were more cloudy or rainy days. Yes, the unit will still charge in those conditions and even in the tent in daytime, but the rate of charge is much slower. In periods of consistent rain and clouds, I found the time to fill to full from flat could double or treble.
Even the single panel has been a worthwhile carry for me at present given Andy's bike has no dynohub/charger. It has provided a most welcome backup margin. I think a single unit combined with a dynohub charger would allow true independence from mains power in most reasonable use and conditions...the unit itself can even be charged to ~87% from a dyno-charger on cloudy days. For expedition use, two Joos Orange units and a dynohub would do the trick in nearly all use and conditions, which is why I bought a second one for such use.
However, for maximum convenience and shortest charging times within a 5+ phone charge cycle, then it is awfully hard to beat the Anker storage battery (mine is the Cosmo 3 as I recall). It does require mains power to recharge and cannot be charged from solar, another battery, or USB sources including a dynohub-based charger.
The combo of spare charged phone battery, Joos Orange with built in 5400mAh accumulator battery and the Anker 20,000mAh storage battery has worked fine in greatly extending my independence from mains power but is not the ultimate solution for true indefinite independence on expeditions. For that -- and in largely non - winter weather, for my use (did I add enough qualifiers there?) -- I think my SON 28 dynohub and either TTP2+ or B&M e-werk for daytime powering/charging while riding plus two of the Joos Orange solar panels for nighttime recharging would allow for weather variability and do the trick, albeit at standard USB recharge rates. Add the Anker 20,000 storage unit and you'd be set to get through some extended patches of rough weather.
It is this true independence that causes expedition bikes to run so heavy. To no longer depend on the grid for power, taps or streams for water or shops for food, you've got to carry it with you. That weighs a lot but is really the only option in truly remote places with severe conditions unless you drive through and pre-cache stores of supplies...which kinda kills the thrill of exploring new areas the first time by bicycle. It also brings up the matter of stores spoilage and predation by bears and other animals.
All the best,
Dan.
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Having just written all the above on my Joos Orange - recharged smartphone, I'll add that using a trailer as a second power - generating option goes far toward increasing capacity at minimal weight and fuss *while moving*.
Of course, it suffers from the same limitations imposed, say, by grinding along goat tracks (or as I just did, along the dike-top sand roads of Hungary, where 12 solid hours of riding netted me only 48 km of forward progress). Go too slowly or too little, and dynopower alone won't get the job done on an indefinite basis.
Similarly, solar alone won't do it if the weather is uncooperative, as the rate of charge won't keep up with demand.
For true expedition use and genuine energy independence, I see dynocharging with buffer batteries and solar power with battery accumulators as complimentary technologies. There certainly is also a place for a dedicated, high - capacity mains - charged storage battery as well. I've got the lot and that seems to indeed be what it takes for truly independent extended all - weather use in high demand away from mains support...at least at present, for my needs.
Best,
Dan.