Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: Danneaux on June 02, 2012, 12:52:14 am
-
Hi All!
With a large tour coming up and an afternoon of reasonable weather, this seemed like a good time to upgrade Sherpa's pannier hook-rack abrasion protection. I use Ortlieb panniers, and with time and vibration, their glass-reinforced nylon pannier hooks are really abrasive to rack powdercoatings. I've seen photos of holes worn in rack tubing by them, and I just got an email from my Dutch friend who is having a similar problem with his Ortlieb/Tubus combo.
I've been using a Trim-Brite automotive product to wrap my racks, and so far it has worked well to prevent any wear. It is a nice, matte-black tape with low-creep adhesive, intended to restore the window trim on automobiles. It even stands up to the abrasion caused by automatic car washes (the kind that removes the original finish this tape is meant to restore).
Though the tape has worked well, I notice the single layer I wrapped is starting to wear, so I sent for a couple packets of the newest Tubus "Schutzfolien" or protectors meant to keep racks happy with Ortlieb bags. Tubus calls it a "foil" but it is really an adhesive-backed, very shiny clear plastic. My guess is it is adhesive Mylar...it is pretty stiff and hard for its thickness. This is a new material for Tubus this year and they claim it far outlasts their earlier protective foils. See: http://www.tubus.com/product.php?xn=56
In their FAQ, Tubus say...Question: Why does abrasion begin at my carrier through the panniers?
Answer:
The hooks (and sometimes also the border) of modern panniers are made out of plastic with a content of glasfiber. The part of glasfiber was raised, to make the hooks more robust.
These hooks are abrasive and grind the surface of the carrier.
If there is any sand or dirt between the hook and the carrier, this goes even quicker.
Question: How can I avoid the surface-abrasion caused by the plastic parts of my panniers?
Answer: Our carriers are coated with a very strong polyester-based coating with best available technology.
1) Because abraison can appear, we advise to protect the area with our (optional available) protection foil set before using bags.
In 2012 we developed this new, transparent kind of foil, which is tested in-house to its adhesive power, UV- and abrasion resistance under hard conditions and which has performed strongly. It clearly outmatches the former foil.
2) Please check if your panniers fit exactly to the carrier. The inside diameter of the hooks has to be adapted (if necessary with adapters, which should have come with the pannier) to the tube-diameter of our carriers (10 mm). Also the lower hook must fit exactly to the tube (because of the 14 mm tube of TARA/DUO/SMARTI you need an optional available wider hook).
A good matched bag cannot chatter and accordingly makes less abraison.
I figured I'd need a couple sets, since I have two racks (front and rear). I learned I didn't get enough.
I learned a lot more that may help anyone thinking of getting and applying this stuff:
Lesson #1 You don't get much in each foil kit. There is one sheet that has been die-cut into three strips. Each strip is 40mm x 140mm, totaling 120mm x 140mm split three ways.
Lesson #2: Tubus recommend wrapping stressed areas twice (would have been nice if Tubus put these measurements and details in their FAQ: http://www.tubus.com/de_oe.php?xn=8 ).
Lesson #3: Tubus further state "in case of extreme stressed areas you should wrap three layers of foil round the carrier". That would be under the pannier hooks (2 per bag), plus the area immediately under the hook (2, 1 @ the forward diagonal of each Thorn Low-Loader), 1 spot each at the lower fin and another 1 each at the lower fin backing plate. That's a lot more tape than is included in each kit, so if you want to protect everything, you'll be short. You'll also be unhappy if you spent as much as I did; retail for these kits is USD$8.49. Two kits plus postage from Portland, OR cost me USD$23.
Lesson #4: The first wrap of a 10mm OD rack consumes 35mm of the stuff..about 1 wrap if you wrap the short way. so don't; go lengthwise (linear). Because the foil is fairly thick at 0.09mm/.0035in, it grows with every wrap, so count on using 108mm or so of the available 140mm length if you go for three wraps. I'm thinking a person would need 4 of these kits to do a minimal job on two racks. That's a lot of money, totaling close to USD$40 at the best prices I could find including postage.
Lesson #5: Despite being very careful with my measurements and cutting and employing Ghandian levels of patience and determination, the results look terrible. I wore nitrile gloves to avoid fingerprinting the adhesive, and the racks were clean as clean can be with no surface oils, thanks to a quick wipe of 99% isopropyl I use for solder-prepping circuit boards. There was no rack abrasion thanks to my previous use of the trim tape. I even got perfect registration when wrapping, thanks to using the sun's linear reflection on the rack tubes.
Lesson #6: Though the foil went on crystal-clear and bubble-free, the longer it was in place, the cloudier it became (See photos). After awhile, I looked at the overlap of my wrappings and found they had come loose. Pressing them in place, they held for about three seconds and popped loose. Taping them in place for 15 minutes had the same result. The film is simply too stiff for the adhesive intended to hold it. The cloudiness comes when the wraps try to unwrap and delaminate from each other, stretching the adhesive and causing air gaps.
I removed the lot, which was surprisingly easy since it had already started to uncurl.
Huh.
My second attempt involved going to Pacific Rubber for a length of Gates Rubber Company's 6 LOLA reinforced and corded hard-neoprene-coated synthetic rubber tubing. I wanted tubing that would fit over the rack (10mm) yet fit inside the Ortlieb hooks with the sizing spacers removed (16mm). By happy accident in metric-challenged America, 10mm/16mm equals a hose with 3/8" ID and 5/8" OD.
I cut off come sections using arc'd cable cutters to get a nice, square cut, then sliced the hose sections lengthwise, missing my major arteries. The result looked nice and I was encouraged. The sun broke through the cloudy Ortlieb foil, the birds sang, and life was good once more.
Not.
As soon as the hose was sliced, it expanded, thanks to the release of compressed internal cording. This left a gap that was neatly filed by the lower retention clasp of the Ortlieb hooks, preventing them from locking the bags on the rack. Worse, the hose had enough friction against the inside of the pannier hooks to make intended removal a three-handed operation. Nice try, but it dinna'gonna work.
I think I'll go back to the Trim-Brite windshield molding trim tape, and just wrap it a few times. It was invisible, looked good, didn't try to uncurl, and lasted a while. Best of all, it came on a roll so there was plenty of it. A friend tried electrical tape, and after riding in hot weather, the adhesive crept out from the layers and gummed-up his hooks. He switched to black duct tape with the same but messier results.
So. What do you do to or put on your racks to minimize pannier hook abrasion? Thanks in advance for your suggestions.
Best,
Dan.
-
Strips of velcro about three quarter of an inch wide for the most part. One end is wider and has a slot for feeding the free end through. Bought them in packs of five or six each at Lidl. My fave Basil Cardiff pannier baskets have no lower fastening, so I use old Sam Browne reflective belts. The baskets definitely rubbed a good ali rack so much that it was weakened (probably just as well, as it folded when a Range Rover drove into it, sacrificing itself to save my bike). The Velcro is wrapped around and around my current Tubus Cosmo stainless rack (don't buy one until you've seen it in the flesh -- it's for posers) for the full length of the strip so that it makes a standoff about quarter-inch to three-eighths thick. There are wraparounds not only where there are hooks, but wherever the basket touches, or could touch under any conceivable condition. Not as elegant a solution as yours with the tape, but it has worked superbly for three years and about 5500km, over 3000 miles. Not a mark on the rack or the bike. The velcro strips add no weight as I would carry them anyway to tie up whatever comes loose on my bike on my rough lanes. (On a Utopia? I know, heresy. And nothing has come loose. But I'm a belt and braces man.)
Andre Jute
By hook or by loop
-
Strips of velcro about three quarter of an inch wide for the most part...
That's a brilliant idea, Andre, but I am having some problems. I have a few of these velcro ties on hand, and gave it a try. The resulting wrap was too thick for the pannier hook with 10mm spacer installed, and with the 16mm hook alone, it was initially plenty thick, but soon compressed to allow the hooks to rattle.
Is there a secret to the wrapping to keep it in place and the hooks rattle-free?
I also found the wrapped velcro tended to shift on me.
Do you think adhesive-backed velcro wold work? I have some of the standard hook-pile sort, then I also have an industrial version with interlocking mushroom-shaped posts. It is backed with a true industrial adhesive, and might work well if I could get it to wrap a 10mm radius.
Have you heard or had any experience with Foliatec protective films? http://www.foliatec.com/en/protect/lackschutzfolie/
...or...
Mactac protective films? http://www.mactac.eu/products-stone-chip-protection-3-2321--2322.htm
You've got me thinking, Andre! Top-drawer suggestion, and much appreciated.
All the best,
Dan.
-
I tried those foil patches that came with the Tubus rack first time....... they wouldn't stick, just peeled off. I threw them away. That rack was used for over 7 years on my old Sedona tourer and is still on my wife's bike. It has rubbed sections with no powder-coat and a bit of surface corrosion. It's still plenty strong. Corrosion is never too much of a worry with CroMoly - half the chrome content of stainless steel.
On the Thorn Nomad's racks I tried again. Heard that you must wipe the rack surface down with alcohol first. I used metho and the patches stuck OK. The shame is that having placed them in one place I found that the panniers sat better in a different spot :-* Bad luck, the rack is still getting wear patches. Battle scars I say.
-
Last year on the trip to Istanbul I used my Ortliebs with the spacers in. Thorn racks front and rear.
I had black electrical tape wrapped round the contact points and this seemed to do the trick for the 3 months I was away. It wasn't looking pretty by the end though.
I've been experimenting with very basic clear hosepipe from my local fish pond supplier. It has no beading in it. You can squash it flat with your fingers. I just took a metre of the smallest diameter they had. Sliced it up with a Stanley knife and and then lengthways.
I had come across a video on Youtube that gave me the idea.
The clip was using scuba diving tube and was held on with zip ties.
I tried using ties but I like to position my clips butted up against the edge of the rack to reduce forward and back movement. Using ties didn't allow me to do that. So I am now using electrical tape.
The hose was actually too wide in diameter for the racks and overlapped when wrapped around.
This causes the rack to become an uneven shape which actually seems to make for a better grip for the clips. As my bags tend to stay on all day, I'm more interested in them not moving than being super easy to get on and off. I've been using this system for a few months now. It doesn't seem to be wearing through the tape as quickly. I've got red tape on the right and blue tape on the left. And matching colour coding on the bags. It helps me remember what stuff is in what bag. Red is bed and Blue is food. I ran out of rhymes after that :)
I've just spent the last few days tinkering with the Nomad. At present the front carrying device has high and low mounts, a parcel shelf and room for a few lights on the front. It's the bastard offspring of a Thorn low loader and a rear Blackburn mountain rack.
I must take a picture :o I'm not sure if it will get used but it certainly solves where to put the extra sleeping bag for when it gets a bit cold. For another thread me thinks.
-
Hi Richie!
I definitely think you're onto something. This is basically the same route I pursued with the Gates 6LOLA rubber tubing, but was thwarted by the compression molding and the internal belting causing the lot to spring apart. The clear vinyl tubing you're using sounds very like what is called "aquarium tubing" here, and has some real possibilities for what I have in mind. Wrapping it with the tape sure beats the problems of zip ties (ran into the same limitations myself, as I also like to butt the hooks against the crossbars to limit fore-aft movement). And, too the softer tubing really would reduce the rate of wear-through compared to the bare metal rack, just as you've found.
Brilliant idea to mark the rack sides and bags with indexed colors. I did much the same by gluing different club patched to each of the bag-caps. If I can read the patches on the front bags when they're mounted, they're on the proper side. And (eventually) I get to the point where I can remember what's in which. I solve the "where's the food?" issue by reserving both rear bag main compartments solely for food. Makes it easier to loft just those bags up into a tree when sleeping in Bear Country. No food goes into any other bags, so I won't tempt Yogi, Smokey, and their many kinfolk ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fictional_bears ).
The front rack sounds intriguing; by any chance, might we see a photo of it? I have a corker of an idea for adding a platform front rack to some Thorn Low-Loader Markv racks, but it's not quite ready; have to take a few more measurements before I can make a recommendation.
Best,
Dan. (who's off to the fishies and glass-tanks store, looking for tubing)
-
Aquarium tubing would indeed seem to be the likely name of such pipe.
My racks look quite bad with the bags off. But that's usually only when I'm asleep :P
I've never had the need to hang food in a tree for fear of bears, but it's been on my list for a while.
I may have to upgrade the pepper spray though!
Another thing about the tubing is that the bags seem to rattle less over bumps. By rattle I mean the noise of the frame of the pannier hitting the rack. This was especially noticeable before on the front.
-
Prototype 1
-
Oh! I see, Richie...you made it yourself! <-- That always counts for more with me. Pretty nifty idea, I think, good on you!
Another thing about the tubing is that the bags seem to rattle less over bumps.
I presume you've left the sizing spacers out of the Ortlieb hooks, as I did with the 6LOLA tubing? Too big for the 11mm spacers otherwise.
Homegrown innovation rules.
I also leave the panniers on when touring, usually at night as well. I did that when I used gravity as glue and laid the bike on its side. Much easier now with the Click-Stand holding the lot upright. I think of it as my Bicycle Bureau and filch in the bags, which are off the ground, out of the mud, and at a convenient height. Man! Tent instead of bivy, bags upright; If I take my new camp-stool with me, I'll be spoiled utterly rotten. A corner of my mind says, "Danneaux's gone soft" but it surely is a luxury, especially in mud, snow, or wet playa. In high winds, I'll still line the bags up on the windward side of the tent to blunt the breezes at ground-level.
Thanks for the photo, Richie!
Best,
Dan.
-
Dan wants to know, about my velcro-wrap solution, "Is there a secret to the wrapping to keep it in place and the hooks rattle-free?"
Except for the inward angle of the lower rail, the Tubus Cosmo rack and the Basil Cardiff pannier basket are a marriage made in heaven, complete with a cute little offspring in the velcro strips. The inside radius of the basket hooks is just what the velcro will settle to once the pile flattens, so the first few times you just force it on. Sideways movement is restricted because the uprights of the rack are a tight fit with the hooks, so the basket has no lateral movement: it can only move vertically, and the tight fit on the velcro (and the bottom strap sitting right on the thicker wireframe ridge) stops the majority of vertical movement. I was quite prepared to bend the hooks to fit but it proved unnecessary.
My strips must be longer than yours, because the fatter Tubus hooks, which won't fit at all when the Velcro is new, now fit, with a bit of force, and stay on nice and tight, and the Velcro strips butting up against the rack uprights stop the panniers moving at all. This is useless to me though, because I've just about given up using actual panniers -- they're just too awkward in everyday use compared to pannier baskets, and my saddlebags, which are both more convenient.
More, I think it would be a bad idea to tour far away if you force fit some of your crucial gear. My sort of a"tour" is to the houses of friends, and to restaurants attached to comfortable hotels, all within a taxi ride, albeit expensive, of home or even the bike shops in the city where spares may be had. (And probably never more than ten miles from a bus route with buses that let you put the bike in the luggage compartment.) It just doesn't matter if my gear breaks, except that it will irritate me and I will nail the maker's feet to the floor for years to come. Your touring is entirely different. Probably be smart for you to give up the idea of the Velcro strips. Plenty of other good ideas in this thread.
I don't fancy adhesive-backed stuff on a bike. Eventually it always comes loose and leaves the choice between an ugly mess and ruined paintwork. The coachlines on my Kranich which you admire were painted by Meister Kluwer of Van Raam, who worked as a brazier on the production line in 1936 when the Locomotief Crossframe Deluxe, of which my bike is a much-developed copy, was first built. Meister Kluwer was 89 when he painted those coachlines. Sadly, he won't paint any more. So the paint on my bike is a piece of history, a touchstone, worth preserving against %^&*()_& adhesives. I don't mollycoddle it, but I'm not careless of the paint either. The tan leather strips on the mixte rails in front of the seat tube are to keep my sodding great feet off the paint; they're not glued on but tied on with fat fashion shoelaces, turned into a feature...
Andre Jute
-
The tan leather strips on the mixte rails in front of the seat tube are to keep my...feet off the paint; they're not glued on but tied on with fat fashion shoelaces...
Thanks for explaining that, Andre! I have long wondered about their origin since I first saw your Kranich photos....turned into a feature...
And a fine one at that! I always figured they were somewhere in the Utopia Special Options Checkbox, since they are so congruent with the overall ethos of the bike. But then, I shouldn't be surprised. Your repurposed handbags make fantastic-looking saddlebags and tool carriers for the bike and all look bespoke from a master leatherworker.
That thing is a stunner!
I appreciate the additions in your edit, Andre...your thoughts and concern are well-taken and greatly appreciated.
Agreed on the mess and devastation left in the wake of self-adhesives that...aren't. Your touring is entirely different. Probably be smart for you to give up the idea of the Velcro strips. Plenty of other good ideas in this thread.
<nods> Yes. Where I go, alone and well out of cell-phone range or any passing cars/people, an equipment failure means the possibility of Not Coming Back At All, so I have things like double hooks and retention fins on my bags to ensure they stay with me and so failures or crash damage of random hooks are automatically addressed. Pretty much everything is mission-critical and has to work, be field-repairable, or redundant.
Best,
Dan.
-
Dan
I have had partial success with using a contact adhesive to glue a piece of inner tube on the rack as a rack protector. My theory was that the rubber was flexible and should soak up some of the vibration and reduce the wearing. After about 1000km of touring with this protection in place there is minimal ware on the rubber pads that are under the pannier hocks. However the pads I placed lower down on the vertical tubes have almost worn through. I suspect there is a lot more movement between the pannier and rack at those locations exceeding the rubber’s ability to absorb the movement. For those places my next plan is to cable tie some black tube around the metal and see how that goes. In the mean time I will keep the rubber under the main pannier hooks.
My front panniers make use of the Rixen + Kaul rack mountings and experience the rack abrasion problems we are discussing. My rear panniers use the Arkel mounting system and I am experiencing dramatically less rack ware from those pannier mounts. The Arkel mounts get their strength from the metal in them and employ some sort of plastic to protect the rack.
http://www.arkel-od.com/us/all-categories/bicycle-accessories/cam-lock-hook-kit-1.html?SID=7dba6c16ada922995c42661bce20bcda
Peter
-
Hi Peter,
I'm sorry to be so long in replying; I've been conducting some experiments myself. I have had partial success with using a contact adhesive to glue a piece of inner tube on the rack as a rack protector. My theory was that the rubber was flexible and should soak up some of the vibration and reduce the wearing.
I feel sure you're onto something here, Peter. The dense rubber will serve as an vibration isolate as well as preventing direct contact between the hooks and rack; well-reasoned and well-done!
I wish I had had the same luck. Since reading your post, I gave it a try on a spare set of hooks and didn't fare as well. I think the problem came down to two issues: Rubber with a too-high sulfur content and poor contact adhesive. I feel sure I would get better results if I used SeamGrip instead of Barge Cement (often used by cobblers to re-glue shoe soles). SeamGrip is my new go-to product for flexible adhesive. As it was, the rubber peeled off at the edges from the hooks. I'll give it another try. Meantime, I think I'll go with triple wraps of my Trim-Brite automotive windshield trim tape to get me by on my shakedown cruise. At least, it will give something for the hooks to chew on for the several day's shakedown cruise to try a bunch of new things. I definitely think your idea is worth revisiting with better materials upon my return.
Not to disparage Ortlieb or Rixen & Kaul mounts in any way, but Arkel have really done a great job in approaching pannier support from a different direction. One thing I do miss on the Ortlieb bags compared to my ancient Kitland TourPaks and my homebrew versions of same is the lack of a rigid backplate made from tempered aluminum sheet. That really did wonders for keeping the bag-hook interface structurally sound. The softer, more flexible plastic stiffeners Ortlieb use allow vertical bag movement to be translated into rotational hook movement around the rack tubes. To see it for yourself, mount an Ortlieb bag, then push the bag gently up and down from the bottom to simulate what happens when riding on a rough road. The hooks literally spin around the rack tubes. So long as one sets the hooks to limit fore-aft movement, I think this is the major remaining source of Ortlieb hook:rack wear. I've minimized this action on my bags/racks by always using a compression strap to tie the bag to the rack and compress the load, minimizing not only bag-rack movement, but movement of the load within each bag. As a result, second-order vibrations and impacts are greatly reduces (nearly eliminated) and those hooks can't rotate to nearly the same degree as if the bag is held solely hanging from their support. It's quieter, too.
Thanks for your thoughts on this, Peter. I keep going back to my garage-workshop to rustle and sort through my bins of materials to see if I can come up with a replacement for the hook size-adapters. I think elastomers show great promise, and I can carve on them with my Dremel Moto-Tool and can even leave a little fin to engage the outer hook shell. Sort of the best of both worlds, incorporating your idea of the glued-on rubber (I think you had a really good idea).
More to follow after I play a bit with various materials.
Best,
Dan.
-
Since reading your post, I gave it a try on a spare set of hooks and didn't fare as well. I think the problem came down to two issues: Rubber with a too-high sulfur content and poor contact adhesive. I feel sure I would get better results if I used SeamGrip instead of Barge Cement (often used by cobblers to re-glue shoe soles). SeamGrip is my new go-to product for flexible adhesive. As it was, the rubber peeled off at the edges from the hooks.
Maybe put a line of Sugru (http://sugru.com/) along the rack bars ??
This stuff is kind of amazing :o
(https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/assets.sugru.com/galleries/images/656/single/656.jpg?1324376116)
-
I tried those foil patches that came with the Tubus rack first time....... they wouldn't stick, just peeled off. I threw them away. That rack was used for over 7 years on my old Sedona tourer and is still on my wife's bike. It has rubbed sections with no powder-coat and a bit of surface corrosion. It's still plenty strong. Corrosion is never too much of a worry with CroMoly - half the chrome content of stainless steel.
On the Thorn Nomad's racks I tried again. Heard that you must wipe the rack surface down with alcohol first. I used metho and the patches stuck OK. The shame is that having placed them in one place I found that the panniers sat better in a different spot :-* Bad luck, the rack is still getting wear patches. Battle scars I say.
In my book, Battle Scars > Heath Robinson solutions.
-
Maybe put a line of Sugru along the rack bars ??
A superb suggestion, Pete, and -- as it happens -- one I was playing with earlier this evening! Minds thinking alike!
The problem I ran into with the Sugru is where to put it. I decided I didn't want it permanently attached to the rack tubing for a variety of reasons (mostly aesthetic), so I attacked the problem from the hook end of things, basically making a clone of the Ortlieb sizing adapter yesterday. By tonight, I thought I'd got it right, but...no. That's why I turned my thoughts toward elastomers in my last post. What I did was to take a spare pair of hooks and some Reynolds "Release" aluminum foil and wrap the foil over the rack (reasoning the "Release" -- probably some sort of safflower oil -- would not only protect the rack, but serve as a mold release. I was just bright enough to try this with the hooks apart from the bags, or I'd have had quite a mess when the spare Sugru oozed out the side of the hooks (thankfully, I was also foresighted enough to fit Sherpa with a drape to prevent Sugru-goo from sliming Sherpa as well).
I used a silicone spray as a mold release in the hooks, and it worked.
The resulting Sugru pad (such as it was) was ~16mm, since it fit inside the unadapted hooks. The inside was not quite 11mm, since it was molded over the rack tubes.
The result had problems in two ways:
1) The plug(s) didn't stay in the hooks; the Sugru was not as rigid as a proper Ortlieb adapter and fell out. I used dental floss to tie it in place till I could look at the underside, and that's when I found...
2) The hook pads are only part of the equation. The other part is the clasper hook on the underside that retains the bag/hook on the rack. It cannot be padded in any case, else it can't be retracted when pulled/deployed when released.
I can't really see any way the Sugru could be "adhesived" (stuck) to the inside of the hook without messing up the clasper hook and the little garage opening it emerges from and retreats to. The Sugru can't exactly be "shaped" after it sets like you would expect of Sculpey ( http://www.sculpey.com/ ) or similar acrylic modeling plastics that can be milled post-hardening (on the other hand, Sugru stays more rubbery? I guess you could say). You have to kind of get Sugru "right" the first go-'round in the shaping process. And, it tend to come out looking (at best) like a dab of modeling clay was put in place and then kinda fingered a bit.
I'm now back to square one, thinking the best solution is a 360° wrap of the rack tube itself...along the lines of what Richie has accomplished. If I go that route (and no criticism of Richie's method or result, just personal preference), I want to make it as inconspicuous as possible and in black to match the rack. I also want to make it so the tubing closes evenly on the underside so it is not snagged by the clasper hook.
Justasec...
Okay, I'm back. I just dashed out to the garage, where I found a small salesman's sample of adhesive-lined, cross-linked heat shrink tape. My sample is blue, but I remember seeing it in black as well. Here's a video showing what I have in mind (being careful not to melt the rack's powder-coat or the SKS fenders or the Schwalbe tires): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gdxvdvusqU
Still thinking...
Keep the ideas coming, guys; they're good'uns! If we put the Hive Mind of our collective thoughts together on this, we'll solve this common problem.
All the best,
Dan. (whose days are either not long enough, or too long; it's after midnight and tomorrow already)
-
In my book, Battle Scars > Heath Robinson solutions.
I agree, Jim; whatever solution there is must be simple and as reliable as a stone. Otherwise, yes, scars are better. ;)
Best,
Dan.
-
LOL great pic Dan! Yes, I do appreciate you guys like a challenge, good luck on your quest.
-
Haha, no offence taken Dan, all of my customisations seem to be ever evolving and never reach a stage I'm 100% happy with. Therefore I never give a moments thought to what it looks like if it's actually working. One day, one day. ;D
-
Good morning, All! (my time, anyway)
In a few minutes' time, I'm setting off on a couple nights' shakedown tour to the snow-covered lava beds at the summit of Oregon's Cascade mountain range, so I spent some time Saturday pondering the pannier-hook abrasion issue once again.
I finally decided to wrap the racks with a couple more layers of the Trim-Brite windshield trim tape...and hope for the best. The stuff stands up to years of automatic car-wash abrasion, so hopefully it will continue to work well in this application over time.
I've spent a lot of time looking at how Ortlieb hooks actually abrade the rack (see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=54.msg20053;topicseen#msg20053 ) and have concluded the tape -- with my compression straps -- is worth a try.
It appears Ortlieb hooks cause rack abrasion in two ways (both related to movement, of course):
1) By banging into the cross-bar stops of the rack. Solution: Spread hook placement as far as possible to minimize lateral (longitudinal, if you look at it from the saddle) movement along the rack tubes and pad the cross-members with a turn or two of tape. And minimize movement by tying the pannier and its contents to the rack with a single compression strap.
2) By hook rotation. Ortlieb use fairly flexible plastic stiffeners, and when the bag is lofted by a bump or vibration, this vertical movement is translated into hook rotation around the rack tube. It is a fretting movement (back-and-forth) in a concentrated area. I looked at a friend's aged Tubus rack that had been worn raw, and there are little "fret lines" running crosswise to the rack tubing that support what I saw happening with movement on my test rig. Again, the solution is to protect the rack with something thin (like tape) if you choose to keep the sizing adapters (otherwise, go with something thicker, as Richie has done) and -- once again -- minimize the chance of movement by tying the pannier and its contents tightly to the rack with a single compression strap made of nylon webbing. For ease of use, a quick-release Fastex-type buckle makes it convenient to get into the bags.
Dirty or muddy conditions make hook abrasion worse by tossing gritty materials between the hooks and racks. For those of us who feel compelled to, it probably wouldn't hurt to give the hook-rack interface an occasional quick wipe with a damp cloth before mounting the bags on the rack. But then, I uh have been known to clean parts of my bike on long tours (chain, chainrings, cassette cogs and derailleurs with a quick wipe-down of the frame on occasion).
My little mini-tour should tell me a lot. In a few days, I'll get to see if any of my speculation and theories panned out. If not, I may soon be trying to find ways to repair abraded powdercoat on racks. :-\ Meantime, it'll be a chance for Sherpa to play in the snow and for me to check out the new kit in cold weather at 6,0000ft/1830m instead of 11,000ft/3350m later this month, and nearer home if something goes haywire and needs correction. See: http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/REGION4/Video/242_open.wmv I like to set little quests for myself, and one for this trip is to find an old lodge built by the Civilian Conservation Corps around 1940. It has been neglected and is boarded up and barred to entry due to rot, but it would be nice to see if I can find it. As recently as 40 years ago, it was used as an overnight stop for hikers on the Pacific Crest Trail. I'll also see if there's fish at Fish Lake and stop for a moment at the John Craig Postman's Memorial ( http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=20020516&id=slVWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=qOsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2222,4390055 ) before heading back by way of Tombstone Pass.
All the best,
Dan.
-
Dan
To get the pieces of rubber inner tube to stick to the rack I washed them thoroughly then carefully sanded off the outside layer of release agent before applying the contact cement. So far the gluing has held up very well.
Peter
-
Food for thought on this thread! Richie/Dan - you gave me an idea about the tubing, aquarium type or similar. I have the Thorn Expedition rear rack. I had a dig around the interweb and found a company in the UK (no doubt available locally internationlly) that supplies braided reinforced tubing with an internal diameter of 10mm, external 15mm. Sounded ideal. Link here ...
http://hotspecialoffers.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15_12 (http://hotspecialoffers.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15_12)
They do other internal and external tubing dimensions which would suit other rack dimensions. Also clear tubing available.
First I cut the lengths to 65mm (for the Thorn Expedition rack) then cut down one side of each of the sections. I tried heating the tube lengths a little to make them softer and easier to fit and to try and get the zip-ties to sink into the plastic tubing for a seemless fit! Mistake - or I overdid it with the temperature and left a funny smell in the kitchen! No need as it turns out as the tubes fit the rack perfectly when you secure with the zip-ties. May add additional tube lower on the rack if there are any potential abrasion issues there.
Thanks to Cycling About - coupled with double pannier hooks and additional bolts ...
http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/ortlieb-pannier-bag-tip/
Images below. First the pipe and 65mm lengths cut, then a view of the fitted pipe close-up and from above. The 15mm external tube diameter is a perfect fit for the Ortliebs without inserts (16mm). The tube seems very robust and is UV resistant and rated -20C to +50C.
I will report back on long term results in time.
-
Richard!
Wow! That looks so nice! There's something about the reinforcing grid that makes it look more "right" for the job than the tubing I've been looking at. A very nice, neat job, and I think you've found a very good solution.
The really nice thing about this is how you've filled all the spaces, so if the hooks did manage to somehow slide, they'll still reside in a covered area. I have a feeling the zip-toes (very thoughtfully placed head-down) will do a great job of snagging the clasping hook (the little one that retracts on the underside) and also keep the bag from moving.
There is yet another advantage to all you've done -- the rack surface itself (top-deck) will be protected from abrasion that could be caused by any rack-top load. You could put pretty much anything you wished on there...including more protective sleeves on the crossbars if you wished.
Well done! Thanks for sharing! Very nicely-taken photos, too.
Best,
Dan.
-
I knicked my idea from biciclown on youtube. I tried with zip ties but the snagging on the clips annoyed me so I went with tape instead.
I hadn't thought about heating the tube and getting the zip ties to sit "in" the hose though. Yes making it flush would be much better.
The search continues.
-
Dan/Richie
Yes, thinking about putting some tube on the 'top deck' as you suggested. Plan to use an Ortlieb Rack-Pack with the rear Ortlieb panniers, so protection there may prevent abrasion of the rack as well as the bag as you say. Time will tell with the zip-tie option. Thought about some tube lower down on the rack 'verticals' too. Will try later.
It is a breezy cloudy day today with sun with a few showers so about to take a spin up a local valley.
-
Hi Richard/Dan Hows the hose/rack/pannier combo working out. Time has been a problem of late. My system has been working but its looking mighty tatty now.
Time for me to tape them up again before I leave on the tour. As my bike will have the panniers attached most of the time you cant see the nastiness underneath.
Did those saddlebag straps ever come your way Rich?
-
Richie
My reinforced tube stup is wearing well. You should give it a go! I see you are off on a big trip and I am jealous! That will be me one day soon I guarantee!
Nope, sent you two messages, and no straps yet. Not a problem as I have attached my super tubing and the bag sits fine under the saddle.
All the best with the trip!!!
-
Hi, Richie and Richard!
I still have not come up with my "ideal" solution for the Nomad. After a lot of experimentation with Sherpa's racks, I can tell you what has not worked for me in my own circumstances and conditions. I have come to the conclusion Ortlieb's wrapper-tapes aren't for me. I found with heat (simulating what I often encounter in the desert, with stationary temps approaching 140°F/60°C), the wraps delaminate and start to curl, leaving sticky stuff behind.
The TrimBrite automotive trim tape is not durable enough under abrasion by the Ortlieb glass-filled nylon hooks. It did stay in place very well with its low-creep adhesive and is very tough in other ways and applications. Though not suited for racks, the Trim-Brite tape makes terrific rub strips to protect frame paint from cable housing.
Electrical tape has a high-creep adhesive that left a gummy mess on everything for me. It took a lot of work with 99% isopropyl alcohol and even some peanut butter and GooGone adhesive remover to get everything cleaned up. I tried cloth-reinforced duct tape (available in black), and that was equally disastrous; as soon as the "skin" covering the tape wore through, the adhesive was even tougher to remove.
I'm now nearly at the point of simply letting the Ortlieb hooks and stabilizers rub a bit and touch-up the paint upon my return. "Nearly", but not quite "there". I like Richard's idea and am giving it serious consideration; it looks very nice, indeed!
All the best,
Dan. (...who is still pondering)
-
Most of the Ortlieb abrasion tape patches eventually fell off my racks under the heat, abrasion and dust of our recent Central Australia tour. My pannier racks have areas that have rubbed the powder-coat off to a fair extent. I am looking to get some plastic fuel-line tubing to protect the rack bars.
-
Thought I would add some more pictures of the final rack protection in place.
I have now added a Mark V low-loader and put some of the same tube there too. Where the Ortlieb bottom hook contacts the rack, I have added some old inner tube as the reinforced tube is too bulky.
Additional cable ties have been added so that the pannier top hooks do not slide about. All in all the panniers fit well, do not move and do not rattle. Happy! :D
-
There is also a picture showing the Safety Wing extended - great for keeping safe as the darker days and nights roll in!
-
My! You've surely done a fine job of it, Richard, and everything looks neat as a pin, tidy as can be. You've hit all the "rub spots" as well, and the reinforcing web in the tubing makes it looks like a "developed product". Your racks will never wear out, and will always look as new!
I'm sore tempted to go this route, but "need" (why? dunno...character flaw?) to find tubing that is all-black to fit the stealthy nature of my racks and bike. Something like that bit of black innertube you have in Picture Three. No reflection on the fine job you've done, but while we're at it, I wish someone would make zip-ties with lower-profile heads. I find myself wishing that every time I attach my computer, light, and charging cable runs. Anyone know of something like that? Stainless-steel bands are available to secure the synthetic rubber boots to automotive constant-velocity joints...the tap gies through a little hoop and folds back on itself, secure as can be. Now, it there were only a sleeved zip-tie, I'd be set.
The side-wing idea sure looks like the Safety Feature of the Year for making cars more aware of your width inthe absence of rear panniers. An older idea that still has much to recommend it. Hmm. Wondering if a 1W LED blinky might be attachable, perhaps with a bit of Araldite (JB Weld in my part of the world)?
All the best,
Dan. (...whose creative juices are flowing, having seen Richard's wonderful innovations and attachments)
-
I think you can get high pressure air hose (for compressors) in the required size and that generaly comes in black. It is a similar feel of rubber to bicycle tyres and is very hard wearing.
Definetly a job worth considering. Now just need to find some hose in silver for the new surly racks
Cheers
Andy
-
Hi Andy!
Good idea about the air hose. I gave it try, but had to abandond it, as the rubber had so much "tack" it ended up making it very hard to seat and release the hooks..they just dragged on it or kinda bonded with it under pressure (!). Surprised me, I can tell you! I tried several samples, too. There is a sort of fuel-rated hose with a covering called "EDPM" that looked promising, but the cover soon abraded under the pressure of the glass-reinforced hooks. Those things are tough, and tough on stuff!
I think Richard is onto the right material...the stuff he is using (if it is like the samples I've felt over here) is kinda plasticky-rubbery rather than rubbery-rubbery. Just wish it was black. :D
Great ideas, though...keep 'em coming!
Al the best,
Dan. ("The Man In Black"...not just Batman or Johnny Cash, but also Dan on his Nomad)
-
Dan - the same tubing can be found without the white re-inforcement. It is the same plasticky-rubbery stuff as you say. I know it is not black but clear may be the closest you can get to preserving your 'Man in Black' status!
http://hotspecialoffers.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14_6 (http://hotspecialoffers.co.uk/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=14_6)
I find that the panniers clip on quite easily, and remove easily with my tubing solution. Time will tell how the tubing performs in hot weather, if it expands or becomes more rubbery than plasticky. I have tried heating it with a hair-dryer, and it does not become too tacky.
'Blinky' glued to the Safety Wing also a great idea - Thanks!
-
As I was renewing my insulating tape I thought I would treat the rack to a new piece of hose. I've now got JCB hydraulic hose in black. 10mm/16mm zip tied on. It's quite a snug fit so not sure if I'm going to stay with it. But I will report back with the findings. Looks good though:)
Update: Unfortunately looks are not everything. It's grown a bit, just like yours Dan. So off it comes.
Back to the the aquarium hose for me. Or I might even just go back to using the inserts on the bare rack!!!!
No doubt I'll find the perfect solution in the unlikeliest of places when I'm not looking for it.
-
Either you spend a lot of time touring or you don't. In the former case, you're not going to want to fuss around with gear that has to be babied, and that is what all this fiddling with protecting the racks sounds like. Treat them like consumables. I've toured 8000 km so far with my Thorn racks. The paint is abraded in many places on the rear racks where I use Ortlieb panniers. I would estimate that the Thorn racks will need to be replaced around 50,000km. That's maybe 7 years down the road. A new set of rear racks, at $200 at most including shippin, every 7 years works out to under $30/year or less than one night in a motel. I can surely spend one more night per year camping rather than in motels to pay for new racks.
No abrasion on the front racks, which use my home-made panniers and which only carrier water bladders. Au contraire, the front racks are abrading the home-made panniers slowly but surely, but these panniers can be easily replaced.
If you tour less than me, then rack abrasion will likely be slower. I tour in a dry climate, so that rust is not a problem, but I doubt things would be different in a wet climate, since the loss of steel to abrasion will almost certainly be greater than the rate of steel loss to rust.
Just make sure you don't buy a bike like the silkroad, which combines rear rack and frame.
-
Sorry to jump in on this one so late......
By increasing the diameter size of the rack with the plastic tube, is there then a problem with fitting the hooks for the panniers? Guess there isn't or you guys wouldn't be going downn this path.
Are there several sizes of hooks supplied?
(The late) Matt
-
I'm about to fit some clear aquarium tubing to my racks, ID - 10mm, OD - 13mm. The Tubus racks are 10mm dia. The hooks on my Ortliebs are 16mm (or more - some have spread a bit under heavy loads) and you use spacers to size them down for 10mm or 8mm rack bars. So, no, there is no problem in fitting the hooks onto the rack.
-
Hi Matt!
Yes, Ortlieb supplies their panniers with hooks and two sizes of inserts -- one for 8mm and the other for 10mm rack-tube diameters.
These adapter clips have been known to fall out with time and wear, becoming problematic. See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3955.msg20055#msg20055
If one wraps a 10mm rack, then it is possible to fit the bags securely without the adapter clips and reduce wear on the rack and rack finish. it is possible to view this as a win-win.
The trick is to match the rack wrap to the size of the standard (unadapted) Ortlieb hooks so they neither rattle nor stick.
(The late) Matt
:o Man, I hope not! Writing from the Great Beyond, are you? :D
All the best,
Dan. (...who is *really* late at about 8 hours behind most of you. ;))
-
Hi Dan
I am not late as in past tense but just late in my second question relating to Ortlieb panniers.
Is it advisable to purchase spare clips (if they are made) for the panniers? And is there a left and right side to them?
I guess they will not weigh much and could be worth carrying in my spares box while on remote tours
-
Yes, Matt, it is a good idea to carry spare inserts for Ortlieb bags, and I do so myself. Loss is generally not a problem with new bags (unless the're not snapped in securely to start with), but can become problematic over time with the effects of wear, rough roads, and heavy loads. There's not a real good solution to the problem once it occurs...users have employed dental floss, glue, and various tapes to keep worn inserts in place, but it is not much fun to search for them when lost. Loss typically occurs when the bags are demounted in camp or at a lodging. This is one reason why some people pad the rack out to such a large diameter they can dispense with inserts and use just the outer hooks, which have no parts to lose.
I also do something else, which accomplishes the first task as well: I have each of my rear bags fitted with a spare pair of hooks and inserts on the rails. It makes unauthorized removal ("theft") of the bags a little more difficult, and provides a handy place to store the spares in case of crash damage or loss. Placing the spares on the more heavily-laden rear bags helps distribute the load through a total of 4 hooks/adapters per bag, rather than two, and the spares take up no space inside my bag. Added weight is negligible.
I also use two lower retention fins on each of my Ortlieb bags. The extra fin makes for a more secure, rattle-free fit and provides a ready spare in the event of breakage (lower retention fins have been known to break after some time, especially in cold weather).
With new bags, you'll be very unlikely to have a problem. With time, insert loss can become a problem for some. I figure I'm covered either way with the spare set of hooks/inserts, which of course fit any of my four bags. All the Ortlieb hooks, adapter inserts, and lower retention fins in the QL-2 mounting system are interchangeable and can fit any location (not side-specific).
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
-
Still playing around with my tube covering.
Very happy with the result and the front ortlieb panniers fit snug on the racks.
It occured to me that the tubing could act as a secret store for a few notes.
The tubing is such a snug fit I have not used cable ties on the front - although I have on the rear.
It's easy to fold a few notes inside some paper and slip it under the tubing. Either tied down before the clips are applied or under the front tubing
Those who like to spread their cash about may like the idea?
Matt - who famuosly does not spread his cash around.
-
I'd been using duct tape for a good while, and it had done very little other than make a sticky mess of my pannier racks so I've just gone with StuntPilot's method. Picked up the tubing while I was back in the UK, and applied it yesterday here in Colombia. I went with more coverage, as in my 45,000km the panniers have rubbed on other parts of my racks. Let's see how it stands up to long-term touring. It took a good few hours to do, and it's a little sloppily done, but here's hoping it works well. Thank you for the inspiration!
-
I've used the clear plastic tubing - 13mm OD, 10mm ID. Bought some of the reinforced 15mm/10mm tubing but it was too hard to cut, so the thinner tubing proved much easier to fit. Cable-tied in place and the bags sit very snuggly on it. It should be sufficiently abrasion resistant to last for many years.
-
How about this ?????
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Metre-x-10mm-BLACK-Silicon-Silicone-Vacuum-Tube-Rubber-hose-/170696840317
-
A quick report.
After my recently completed North Sea Cycle Route tour (103 days/at least 6200km) the tubing has stood up well during the trip. There is no sign of tube wear at all. I replaced one zip-tie as the tubing had become a bit loose at that point. The handle on one Ortlieb clip came loose and I lost the screw (which will be repaired under Ortlieb's excellent warranty). Other than that I can conclude that the tubing used is up to the job.
There are a few points of wear on the front and rear Thorn racks but no rusting of the rack itself. I will be adding more tubing at those points.
In conclusion, I would say, at least for me and from my experience on this tour, I have found the solution to mounting the Ortlieb panniers without inserts and without rack damage.
Hope you find the same onebikeoneworld!
-
As onebikeworld has done, so have I.
Except I used black radiator hose from a car shop. Attached it the same way with small cable ties. Mainly on the top where the Ortlieb hangers are and I too removed the small useless plastic inserts.
Now I too will do the same with the area where the panniers rub on the sides.
-
Hello all. Time to jump in with my first post.
Do you think spiral hose wrap would work? It is a hard plastic tube spirally cut so that it can be wrapped around cables. It is reusable without the need for zip ties, and it would give 100% coverage. I think it can be purchased at any auto supply store.
Regards
Ron
Who rides a 30 year old Cannondale (since new) and is hoping to have a New Raven next summer.
-
Do you think spiral hose wrap would work?
Hi Ron, and welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum!
That surely is a intriguing idea, and well worth a try. I also thought about using split-loom (electrical) harness wrap to accomplish the same end. I have not done so yet, and my only concern with either is they a) are plastic and b) can rotate, perhaps grinding away on the rack finish with any grit that has migrated between. The rubber or vinyl hose stays pretty stable, especially when held in place with cable ties.
The main thing to keep in mind is the hook/adapter/rack diameter, which is roughly 8mm, 10mm, and 16mm. Wrapping with rubber or vinyl hose allows one to dispense with Ortlieb's sizing adapters and plunk the hooks directly onto the 16mm hose/tubing, whereas something smaller must be accommodated by the hooks with adapters in place. With the adapters, there's not a lot of leeway beyond the standard sizes.
Still, well worth a try. I may have a go myself here in the next couple weeks, schedule permitting.
Best,
Dan.
-
If you use Ortlieb panniers then I'm sure you're familiar with the problem of losing those little inserts that click into the hooks. They're great when they work, ensuring that the hooks fit snugly onto whatever size tubing your racks built with. But on a long tour I've found them to be unreliable and next to useless. So as I wait out the Peruvian rainy season I finally found the time to make a well over-due Ortlieb adaptation to my racks.
You can see how I did it here...
http://velofreedom.bike/2014/03/19/projects-for-a-rainy-days/ (http://velofreedom.bike/2014/03/19/projects-for-a-rainy-days/)
FYI: I ride a Thorn Expedition Steel Rear Pannier Rack & Old Man Mountain Pioneer Front Rack
[Title changed by Dan to reflect merged topic]
-
Hi VF!
My, what a nice job you did making your substitutes for the Ortlieb hook adapters and the nice summary with photos at your linked site -- Well done!
I have moved your post here, as it is such a nice follow-on to the discussions on how to best protect racks from pannier hook abrasion.
Yours is a clean, neat, and elegant solution nicely executed; thanks for sharing.
Best,
Dan.
-
Hi All!
Ortlieb seem to be well on their way toward solving this problem of pannier hook abrasion at its source, and are rolling out an improved mounting hardware across their line with a further development of their tool-free QL2 mounting system. I saw a set of Back-Rollers with the new QL2.1 system on a Dutch site this week, and it is now included on Ortlieb's new Office-series of panniers (the ones that don't use the QL3 system).
My dealer catalog arrived recently, and describes the new 2.1 system this way...The new pannier mounting system QL2.1 is based on the proven Q2 system, however, several decisive features were considerably improved, especially with regards to racks currently on the market.
This optimized system has the following features that distinguish it from others:
• 16mm QL hooks with inserts which have an "Anti-Scratch" function for 8, 10 and 12mm (size 12mm is required for Racktime racks). In QL2.1, the reductions inserts are now attached from the sides and secured against loss.
• 20mm QL hooks are optionally available for racks with larger diameters (17-20mm ) as often used on e-bikes.
• The upper mounting rail consists of one piece for higher stability. With models Office-Bag and Downtown it can be adjusted to the left of right side of the bike rack.
• The new assembly system allows use of extremely flat nuts on the inner side thus featuring a level surface and avoiding damage to whatever you bring along.
• The lower hook rail is made of a two-component synthetic combination with "Anti-Scratch" function. this reduces abrasions on the carrier and prevents damage to the rack tubing. the lower hook is rotatable in 15° steps and is adjustable in height.
• Just as in the conventional QL2 system, all hooks are adjustable to the rack without requiring any tools and can be easily exchanged.
• Optional upgrade with anti-theft device into the upper rail.
I'm guessing they are using a TPU formulation (Thermoplastic Polyurethane, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplastic_polyurethane ) molded over the usual glass-fiber-filled nylon to prevent scratches. It would be nice if the new mounting system could be fitted to older panniers, though it might be too late to prevent damage form existing mounting hardware. I'm particularly heartened to see a more robust means of retaining the sizing shims, as the present models have been known to wear in use to the point where they sometimes drop out and are lost when removing the bags.
There is further discussion of the system over at the German Rad-Forum here: http://www.rad-forum.de/topics/1007525
Ortlieb have just posted a video to YouTube, showing an animation of the system in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCay7Aq5NJY
For those unfamiliar with Ortlieb's mounting systems, a good explanation of the QL1, QL2, and QL3 is here: http://www.cyclocamping.com/Bike_Parts__Accessories/article_difference_between_the_ortlieb_quicklock_systems_ql1_ql2_ql3/ARTI_ORTLIEB_QL_System-89.aspx The QL2.1 is a refinement of the QL2. A mounting matrix showing which Ortlieb bags fit which racks (with or without adapters) is here: http://www.ortlieb.com/was-passt-rack.php?lang=en
Best,
Dan.
-
VF, nice pro job!
-
This thread has made for some interesting reading. I am surprised at the amount of detail that some have gone to protect their racks, and at first glance it would seem bordering on OCD! Further reading and research proves on extended use, abrasion can and dose become an issue.
So I have had my "thunking" cap on this evening. My solution is to use Kydex a tough Thermoplastic used extensively for making sheaths for knives and holsters for side arms ext. It is a fairly cheap to buy and fairly easy to work with too. I have a 12"x12" 2mm thick sheet in my workshop for some time. I had intended to make a holster for my Hand held marine VHF radio but never got a round to it.
I have cut two strips, 55mm x 30 mm and put them in a 300 degree (gas mark 2) oven on a old backing sheet for 10 min's. You will need some gloves to handle it obviously ::) ;D and moulded them over the rack quickly, it sets up quite fast. The fit is excellent on too the Ortlieb QL2 hooks without the inserts. The cool thing about this is they snap on and off my rack so fitting them in other places on the rack is easy. You will need to get rack and or bike close to the oven so permission may be needed if wife is at home!
(http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq232/electriceel_bucket/PB030009.jpg)
(http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/qq232/electriceel_bucket/PB030008.jpg)
A little refinement is needed to stop them from rotating as this it's self may cause unnecessary where and tear.
Andy
-
Ortlieb's new QL-2.1 pannier hooks (intended for inclusion on their 2015 production and beyond) will render this thread obsolete.
The hooks and lower rail are coated with TPU to prevent rack abrasion, and the hook profiles have been modified to better retain the sizing adapters and so prevent their loss.
Best,
Dan.
-
Good news of Ortlieb responding to a design issue. :)
-
There's a similar topic over on the Crazyguyonabike forum and someone mentioned a product called ISC Helicopter tape. It's a clear polyurethane tape available in 8 and 14 mil thicknesses. Claimed to be almost indestructible. Perhaps it just might do the trick, and it wouldn't change the tube diameter.
Manufacturer website: http://www.racerstape.com/rtp.html
Available from Amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/ISC-Helicopter-OG-HD-Surface-Guard-Tape/dp/B000QC6H90
A 1" X 30' roll should last a lifetime, or share with the whole club!
-
I use the heli-tape to protect the paintwork on the frame of my bikes, and from experience certainly does the job.
-
Just came across this thread. I started looking for the TrimBrite products but have been striking out.
Thoughts??
-
Here is what I did on my Tubus Logo EVO before my trip last summer. PVC plastic tubing, slit lengthwise to put over the rack tube, then wrapped electrical tape around it in several spots. Some people that used the same tubing as I did used zip ties instead of the electrical tape.
I am in USA where we still use inches and miles and other outdated units. I am not sure but I think the tubing dimensions were 1/2 inch outside diameter with a 1/16 inch wall thickness.
-
Just came across this thread. I started looking for the TrimBrite products but have been striking out.
Thoughts??
Hi Thomas!
As I recall, you're in America. Trim-Brite blackout tape is available or can be ordered from the O'Reilly parts store chain. They offer it online here:
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/TRM0/T9005/N0298.oap?ck=Search_N0298_-1_-1&pt=N0298&ppt=C0101
Amazon has it...
https://www.amazon.com/Trimbrite-T9005-Black-Out-Tape/dp/B00029XD62
...and Walmart online, via one of their captive resellers:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Trimbrite-T9005-Black-Out-Tape/198937117?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1245&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=42423897272&wl4=pla-51320962143&wl5=9033029&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112562626&wl11=online&wl12=198937117&wl13=&veh=sem
While I have found it terrific for preventing brake and derailleur housing abrasion (it is an exact match in tone and color for my Nomad's matte black finish), it would not be suitable for long-term protection of racks from pannier hooks -- it is simply too soft to hold up over time to the pressure and abrasion of steel, aluminum, or glass-filled nylon pannier hooks. I gave it a valiant effort and it has not held up for me in that application. Photos below after only 800mi/1300km since the last application. It sort of worked, but has begun to get chewed up/worn through, so would need reapplication before next use.
I think helicopter tape (clear) or adhesive-backed stainless tape (silver in color) would be a better choice -- or bypass tapes entirely and go with the tubing sleeves.
Best,
Dan.
-
Since I have some helicopter tape left from doing my wife's bike I will give it a try.
Thanks!