Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: JimK on April 11, 2012, 04:26:36 pm
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The frame lock showed up in today's mail, the lock that I bought for our teenager's bike, the bike that we're planning for him to ride on the Erie Canal ride in July and then on campus when he goes to college in the fall. When we visited campus a couple weeks ago, I saw a lot of half-decent bikes locked up everywhere with cheap cable locks. I asked one of the students who gave a presentation at the Engineering Open House about bike thefts and he said it wasn't a big problem. We shall see! But a lock that you can't really lose, I figure that might help!
Here's the lock, on 1/5 inch graph paper:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1332.jpg)
This is Version: NKR with mount CL. It gets mounted with a couple stiff plastic straps:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1333.jpg)
These straps have ridges along the inside but it's a threaded plug that catches them. There's a screwdriver slot in the plug so you can tighten or loosen the straps easily. The plug is relatively soft plastic though - not sure how many cycles of screwdriver application the thing will endure, but I expect they won't be going anywhere.
Here's the lock mounted:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1334.jpg)
That's a Jamis Trail X1 bike from maybe two years ago. I just put on the Planet Bike Hardcore 60 mm fenders. The tires are Schwalbe Marathon Dureme 50-559.
I was trying to imagine this lock down at the chainstays, Dan: I think the big trouble will be the clearance between the chainrings and the wheel. Anyway, with the graph paper picture, you could probably make a cardboard cut-out and test the clearances!
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Jim,
Wow! You've done an outstanding job photographing the new lock, and placing it on graph paper was inspired. Are those 1/4" squares? Even better than measuring, I can copy the photo to one of my graphics applications and scale it to full-size in printing, cut out the picture, and hold it in place to check clearances. Next-best to having the lock on-hand, but not as secure. ;)
After all this, may I impose with another measuring question? Please, could you tell me:
a) How thick is the lock itself?
b) How thick is the lock (when mounted) from the surface of the seatstay?
c) Where does the key go? Is it located on the right side as we view the lock on the graph paper? If so, that might be problematic in clearing the chainrings as well.
What I am trying to do is check clearances between the top of my chainstay and the bottom of my front derailleur so I can see if it is possible to mount the lock there (the conventional seatstay location is out for me, thanks to interference with the Zefal HPX pump, and I think there I may be just shy of the clearance needed to mount it to the v-brake bosses on a separate bracket...I don't think it would clear my forward rack mounting tangs).
Best, and all thanks for the great job you've already done!
Dan.
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Here are some more shots that should address your questions, Dan.
Looking at the lock width-wise:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/width.jpg)
Here is the key in the lock
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/keyin.jpg)
and here is the key almost all the way out of the lock:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/keyout.jpg)
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Jim,
This is just terrific; I've been sprawled on the livingroom floor the last half-hour with a to-scale cutout of the lock, trying it in various places. I surely appreciate your efforts, and this latest is icing on the cake!
In your photos, could the lock have been moved down, nearer the tire? I'm guessing the inside edges have caught on the edges of the fender and that is what is limiting movement. Also, it appears you did indeed get the model with the removable key, which I would also need if the lock is to clear the chainrings in use.
Man, it's going to be tight. If it makes it, it'll just...oh, drat. I was measuring with the derailleur on the outer chainring. I just realized that and moved it to the inside ring and there went my clearance 'cos the derailleur not only moves in, but down as well. Oh...man. Well, I haven't given up yet; I'll have to approach this from a different angle.
On a side note...Jim? The plastic mounting blocks look about a gnat's eyelash away from the tire sidewall. Are they really that close, or is it the camera angle? I suspect it's the angle, 'cos I don't see how they would extend in any further than the metal bracket part of the lock.
I sure appreciate your patience and the terrific photos and measurements, Jim; thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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could the lock have been moved down, nearer the tire? I'm guessing the inside edges have caught on the edges of the fender and that is what is limiting movement.
I think I could have moved the lock down - I don't think I was hitting any constraint in that dimension. I will take another look and report back - probably tomorrow.
Also, it appears you did indeed get the model with the removable key, which I would also need if the lock is to clear the chainrings in use.
Seems this CL mount only comes with the removable key.
the derailleur not only moves in, but down as well.
Yeah, that is a tight spot. But it sure would be cool if the lock could actually fit there!
On a side note...Jim? The plastic mounting blocks look about a gnat's eyelash away from the tire sidewall. Are they really that close, or is it the camera angle? I suspect it's the angle, 'cos I don't see how they would extend in any further than the metal bracket part of the lock.
The camera angle does make it look bad. But the mounting blocks are a bit tighter than the lock proper.... at least the way I have it mounted, but I don't see any other way. The strap goes around the seat stay. The end that comes around the outside of the seat stay, that end passes through the slot in the lock and then through the mounting block that's connected to the other end of the strap. That end of the strap had come around the inside of the seat stay, and between the inner edge of the lock and the tire.
As I recall, the inner edges of those mounting blocks are about a finger's width away from the tire. I can try to get a measurement on that tomorrow.
The straps and blocks are only going to narrow the gap by a mm or two on either side. You can see that the lock itself is not at its narrowest at the level of the slots that the straps go through. So it seems the straps/blocks will not add any significant further restriction to the width of the tire that the lock can handle.
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I think I could have moved the lock down - I don't think I was hitting any constraint in that dimension. I will take another look and report back - probably tomorrow.
Looking again, I would say I have the lock mounted about as far away from the wheel as possible. It looks quite free to move right down to the fender.
As I recall, the inner edges of those mounting blocks are about a finger's width away from the tire.
It looks like about 6 or 7 mm between the mounting block and the tire.
So it seems the straps/blocks will not add any significant further restriction to the width of the tire that the lock can handle.
Again, looking more carefully, I would say that the mounting blocks did end up a little narrower than the mouth of the lock, by about 2 mm on each side.
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Thank you Jim, for all the additional. Clearances and such are devilishly hard to figure without a lock in-hand to try, but your efforts have made it possible for me to go as far as possible without the expense of buying one to try -- and then possibly having to return it. Really nice of you!
I have another idea or two in mind that may yet make it possible to mount one of these ring-locks to the chainstays. I'll keep you updated as things progress.
All the best,
Dan.
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Dan,
You are probably aware of this but in case you aren't:
There are 3 models of Abus Amparo with different mounting options:
LH for simple mount on seatstays
SP for simple mount on multi-wall
CL for mount on seatstays with included universal clamps
Amongst other places they are available at Bike24
https://www.bike24.net/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;menu=1000,5,74;product=13654
The Abus web site talks about the "New dimensions." It also identifies the models that do and don't permit key removal.
http://www.abus.de/us/main.asp?ScreenLang=us&select=0104b04&artikel=4003318375620
Cheers
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Chris,
Thank so much; yes, this is helpful. I think the big problem in fitting will be vertical clearance between the lock (when mounted on the seatstays) and the bottom of the derailleur. With that in mind, I did a survey of the locks offered by Abus last night, and see many of the lower-end ones lack plastic cladding. That makes them thinner. Looking at the higher-end models, I wondered if it might be possible to remove at least part of the plastic overlay where there were clearance issues.
Ever heard the old saying, "To the man with a hammer, the world is a nail"? Well, Danneaux has a Dremel Moto-Tool, a high-speed die-cutter with carbide spiral cutters, and various carbide chop saws and an electric bandsaw, so little around here is safe for long.
There are three mounting locations I am considering:
1) I would of course prefer to put the lock in the usual place on the seatstays. There's various reasons including the fact that water would run down and off it there, and it also places it physically higher so any plug-in cable is also higher and so is less likely to be cut using the ground to support a set of bolt cutters. The trouble is, I've got a Zefal HPX pump mounted on the Thorn-supplied beg there, and the pump would almost certainly interfere with the mounted lock. As it is, I have to spin the pump handle so it is offset a bit to clear the fender atop the 2.0 Duremes. It touches the fender, but only lightly embosses it so no problem. I'd hate to abandon the pump in favor of the lock.
2) So, next on the list of options would be to mount the ring-lock on the rear v-brake bosses. This might just work, but if it does, clearance will be really tight. I don't think I would truly know for sure until I mounted it, but it appears the top of the lock wouldn't clear the underside of my Surly Nice Rack stays. The Surly rack is height-adjustable, but that changes the clearance at the stays very little. I would still consider it, though I would be happier if the lock lived inside the rear triangle rather than outside it.
3) That leaves me with a possible chainstay mount. It puts an attached cable low, but it also puts the lock's weight low, and that is bound to lower the center of gravity. Key to putting it there is getting the lock as far as possible toward the fender/tire, and also it needs to clear the derailleur. Unfortunately, this location (atop the chainstays) puts the key on the right side. I think it might be possible to get the key in and out alright if the chain was on the middle or large chainring. It is just possible the lock could be mounted beneath the chainstays. This would appear to solve all clearance issues, and the key would be on the left side where it wouldn't interfere with anything. The problem is it is also outside the rear triangle in that location. The reason this concerns me is it appears the only thing really securing the bike is the plastic zip-tiey things that locate the lock. Cut those or saw through them, and the bike is free...except for the lock going flipp-floppy beneath the rear wheel. That's solved by dropping the rear wheel, but then the thief has to carry the rest of the bike. Looking at it from Andre's point of view, this would stop most thieves who have any sense. Trouble is, our thieves here'bouts aren't so rational, and would probably make off with all they could take away.
The eventual goal would be to mount a ring-lock and use it with an attachable cable to secure the bike to itself and to an immovable object while in a market or grocery while on-tour. The front of the bike would use Atomic22 3D security bolts on the steerer cap (in my case, securing The Plug2) and on the front hub (SON28 dynohub). This means the front wheel can't be taken and the fork and wheel cannot be readily removed, along with The Plug2. If I needed more security, I could always place the U-lock in my rack pack. I live in Eugene, and often make the 108mi/174km round trip to Corvallis and Albany, and it is nice to stop for a meal midway. Like Eugene, Corvallis is a uni/college town, and bike theft is rampant. It has generally taken me about 10-12 minutes to properly lock my bike and remove theft-prone items before I can go in to eat, watching it through the window. Off comes the rack pack, computer, GPS, pump, and bottles, as well as the Click-Stand. Then, the front wheel comes off, and is secured to the rear stay and an immovable object with the U-lock. A cable goes through the saddle rails, and then I can eat, reversing the process when I get out. It finally got to be so much hassle, I developed the Pocket Kitchen ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3850.msg16915#msg16915 )and ate rehydrated soup in the park. I have the notion a set of Atomic22 3D fasteners and the ring-lock/cable idea might streamline things a bit while on a fully-loaded tour.
Thanks for the help, guys; very much appreciated. I'll keep plugging away here, and see what I can come up with. Any and all suggestions are welcome!
Best,
Dan.
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Yeah, if somebody cut those plastic straps, which is easy enough to do, then the wheel could be removed. Of course, somebody could just pick up the bike and cart it off without bothering to remove the wheel.
So the attached chain or cable is important to obstruct such thievery. I got a cable for our teenager's bike. On the Amparo, the cable plugs right into the knob that one slides to open or close the lock.
I think what's important isn't so much that the lock itself in inside the triangle (seat tube, seat stay, chain stay) but that the cable passes through it. So one possibility would be to mount the lock below the chainstays and then when you lock it you'd just run the cable from the lock up between the chainstays and then out through the triangle.
The official auxiliary cables / chains are nice but really you can use any cable & just pass the lock's sliding hasp through the cable's loop.
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The official auxiliary cables / chains are nice but really you can use any cable & just pass the lock's sliding hasp through the cable's loop.
Jim,
I was wondering about this. From what I could see in photos, the "official" attachable cables for some of the ring-locks simply plug-in to the lock at one end. The other end terminates in a loop. The cable passes around a fixed object and back through the loop before being fixed to the ring-lock. You make a really good point; so long as the lock is looped around the rim/tire...and so long as the cable passes inside the rear triangle...then it should be secure even if the plastic lock mounts were cut.
I guess when one thinks about it, it is only the plastic mounts that keep the lock in place anyway, anywhere. All they have to do is resist the forward motion of the wheel (or resist one spoke against the lock bar). Being able to lock an ordinary cable through the lock tang opens up lots of possibilities. I hadn't thought there'd be enough clearance between the lock tang and rim to manage it, but another look at your photos shows it would be fine.
Thanks!
Thinking cap on and overheating, Dan.
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I live in Eugene, and often make the 108mi/174km round trip to Corvallis and Albany, and it is nice to stop for a meal midway. Like Eugene, Corvallis is a uni/college town, and bike theft is rampant. It has generally taken me about 10-12 minutes to properly lock my bike and remove theft-prone items before I can go in to eat, watching it through the window. Off comes the rack pack, computer, GPS, pump, and bottles, as well as the Click-Stand. Then, the front wheel comes off, and is secured to the rear stay and an immovable object with the U-lock. A cable goes through the saddle rails, and then I can eat, reversing the process when I get out. It finally got to be so much hassle,
If it's a regular thing you do, I'd be having a word with the cafe proprietor to let you leave the bike in a more secure location - his rear yard, or even somewhere inside. As a regular paying customer it will be in his interest to help you out.
I use pitlocks with this wheel lock as well BTW. Then even if the thief disconnects the lock from the frame, it's not going to help him in any way.
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Dan,
I wonder if the Kabrus (http://www.kabrus.co.uk/xl202.html) alarm lock might be an alternative to this style of lock which might solve some of your fitting problems?
There is a good review and discussion of the lock on the ctc forum here (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=45684&hilit=alarm+lock).
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Just to round out the picture a bit more, here are a couple shots of the lock with the auxiliary cable:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1341.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1342.jpg)
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Pete, Rual, Jim,
Thanks, gentlemen, for your kind and patient responses to my lock-fitting dilemma. I am moving forward in trying to get a solution, but will have to back-burner it today (business-of-life stuff, and hopefully a long-fast Sherpa ride squeezed in).
In my mind, I am coming to a place where the ring-lock looks ideal. Even moreso with the attached cable as you showed, Jim. That would be ideal while on-tour and fully loaded; otherwise, it is awfully hard to get the loaded bike close enough to capture properly with the u-lock. Yes, and with wheel locks as you described, Pete -- those prevent losses at the front end, and prevent removal of the rear wheel even if the lock is located outside the rear triangle. Excellent.
And of course, Rual, that Kabrus really gets the creative juices flowing. Looked at one way it really is a sort of giant ring-lock, and offers additional mounting possibilities. I hadn't heard if it, so your tip is especially welcome. I always enjoy learning about new things, so this is all grist for my mill. It could also replace my separate, add-on alarm.
I'm putting a lot of thought into this, and hopefully will be able to find just the right solution for Sherpa. I never thought simple fitment would prove such a challenge!
All the best,
Dan.
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Like that cable lock by Abus.
So far I've been using an OnGuard armoured cable lock (a real tough looking brute of a lock), and I also have the OnGuard wire cable with looped ends that I can use.
But I might consider getting one to slot into the Abus.
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Jim,
I'm wondering if the AXA Defender RL discussed and illustrated in this thread ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1944.0 ) might possibly be just enough smaller to do the job for me. Jim? Pete? I see you both kindly provided the illustrations for that discussion in response to my questions at the time. I'll go back and print off a scaled-photo model to compare clearances with the Abus Amparo 4850 you have. The AXA does appear that little smidge more shallow in thickness and of course has a narrower opening and the actuation button has a lower profile.
By the way, I notice you each went with the Abus instead of the AXA. Was there a reason besides availability or cost? Did the Abus seem more secure to you? I spent a bit of time last evening looking at comparative tests. The AXA had earlier problems with easily compromised keyways, but that seems to have been resolved in current production. Price and security seem roughly comparable, and both brands have plug-in cables or chains available (which I would want).
Yes, the AXA Defender RL's 50mm minimal opening on the hub side is tight for tire clearance (my Duremes are 47mm inflated), so the tires would either just fit or I would/could reconcile myself to removing and replacing the rear wheel with the tire deflated. I don't have to remove it often I would have 16mm total clearance at the sidewall (63mm-47mm=16) or 8mm per side Not bad for road use, and a possible mud-scraper off. I have 12mm minimum fender clearance above the tires, and generally more. I still remember Pete's photo of the wet-red clay that required him to remove and carry the front fender to gain enough clearance for travel. Hopefully, that won't happen too often, though I was right at that point on my last desert crossing when the playa got wet.
With either lock brand, there are key-releasing and key-retaining versions. Pete, I know you went with the key-releasing type and it appears you have as well, Jim. May I ask what moved you in that direction? I have hear isolated reports of the key-retaining types occasionally losing their captive keys on rough roads. Also users cautioned it is easy to lose the loose key in one's pocket (a small carabiner might solve that problem). On the other hand, the releasing types meant people no longer had a ready visual reminder the lock was not secure. It seems most European insurance plans require a key-retaining lock for insurance validation/compensation, though perhaps that's only for proof the lock was secure at the time of a theft.
Thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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I went with the Abus because of the wider opening. The CL mount only comes with the NKR option. I don't understand at all how the other mounts work!
BTW, I tried to lock the Abus without the key inserted and I couldn't get the knob to slide. I'd read one worry about NKR, that folks could just lock your bike, just to cause trouble. But that doesn't seem to work.
I have an AXA SL-7 on my Azor/Workcycle bike. I think it is the predecessor of the Defender. It's a nice lock, too! I hear that it is the one with the compromised locking. Oh, well. It'll be a rare thief in upstate New York who knows whatever trick is involved!
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Hi All,
Guys, confirmed: A ring-lock isn't going to fit on Sherpa in any conventional location; there is too little clearance to mount even the seemingly thinner AXA Defender RL to a seatstay location due to the pump.
The other location atop the v-brakes via a booster-like mount won't clear the rear rack's forward mounting tangs. The photo-scaled model pictured below interferes though only paper-thin and set directly atop the brake mounting bolts (red arrows shows the interference). Raising the rack (possible on my Surly model) doesn't make enough difference to matter.
My idea to put the lock atop the chainstays won't work in practice. There isn't enough clearance to remove the key, and there is not enough room between the top of the lock and the bottom of the front derailleur with the chain on the smallest ring.
Happily, this leaves one location with no clearance problems -- with the lock mounted face-down below the chainstays. Trying it with the smaller AXA Defender RL cutout, everything fits as if made for it, and there is an added benefit in not being obvious* (nearly invisible if I got an all-black model available through some vendors). Lowest possible location for the weight, too, and no ground-clearance problems. It would even clear the lower 1.5l bottle cage and both crankarms. I'll explore this location further and see how practical it is. I'd hate for the lock to become a mud-catching shelf, but that's unlikley so long as it remains ahead of the fender. The sliding actuator is easily reachable from the right, and the key is freely accessible from the left. Combined with a decent set of locking skewers and a plug-in cable or chain, this might be the solution. I'll print a new model of the Abus so I can see if it will work as well.
Thoughts?
Best,
Dan. (dopeless hope fiend)
*An unnoticeable lock might invite a theft attempt, but it also ensures the thief will most likely be unprepared to deal with it and he'd have to be on his knees to pick it or break it. I also have the motion-sensing alarm. A plug-in cable or lock might be more vulnerable to ground-assisted bolt cutters, but that could be addressed by threading it through the wheel at a higher level on its way to a post or solid fixed object.
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Clever Cycles up in Portland carries the AXA Defender so it might be practical to test the fit with the real thing before spending money!
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...it might be practical to test the fit with the real thing before spending money!
Excellent idea, Jim, as 2-way shipping on one I'd have to return could be expensive. There's a well-stocked commuting shop here in Eugene as well; they might have it locally, which would be best of all worlds. The locks are a lot larger when life-size than they appear in the catalog pics. One side benefit of placing it below the chainstays is it would eliminate any possibility of chain-suck and...oh.
Oh!
Oh, no.
Drat.
Jim...the rear derailleur cable is there. It wasn't apparent from my position on the left side of the bike, but it's going to present a problem.
A cloud just passed over my usual sunny outlook...
Dan.
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Ah, that's a pity, Dan. There are so many details that have to harmonize to make a system come together!
Maybe you have already outlined it here, but... what makes the frame lock attractive to you? I put one on the teenager's bike for the convenience factor. First of all, he'll have a hard time losing it! And it is so quick and easy. That plus the kickstand. Better to use the cable too, but if he is running late to class, it should just take like five seconds to get basic security.
I've thought about putting a frame lock on my Nomad, but I don't expect to be in any big hurry when locking it up and I always have some bags on the bike - so a U-lock works just as well.
The fact that frame locks are so uncommon in the USA certainly adds a bit of security. And a strong U-lock is a heavy item. Maybe you can snake through some tricky trade-off of weight vs security that way?
Actually, I wouldn't mind getting my lock out of my saddlebag - I keep thinking about a way to mount the lock on the frame someplace. It's like my click-stand - I am thinking of switching to my Leki trekking pole. If I could mount that to the frame somehow, and then use that to prop up the bike, maybe I could cut the time required from maybe 10 seconds down to 2 seconds. Or just mount the clickstand someplace on the frame instead of buried under all the junk in my handlebar bag. Whew! Ultra-light I am not!
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Jim,
Apologies first off; I fear I've sent you on a fool's errand on my behalf. I surely appreciate your help and patience; thank you.what makes the frame lock attractive to you?
A good question! It took me awhile to get there.
I think most of it stems from frustration with my current locking solutions, particularly when doing solo loaded touring. It would be so much easier if I had a partner; then one of us could watch the bikes. Alas, that isn't possible, so I currently carry a heavy Kryptonite u-lock and a small cable. The small cable secures the front wheel and usually the entire bike to some object. I am not fooling myself; the flimsy cable is the weak link in the system. The u-lock weighs just over a kilogram alone, so the weight is noticeable. I carry it on-edge crosswise atop the rear rack, between my tent and stuff sack. That makes it convenient enough to ensure I use it (don't have to dig for it in the bags, doesn't fill up my frame with a separate mount). Trouble is, even using the "Sheldon Method" (see: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/lock-strategy.html for the method broken, see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9fLtdZyX-A ), it is hard to get the bike with loaded bags close enough to a post or object to lock it properly with the U-lock, so that leaves me depending on the weak link of the weak little cable.
None of this is a problem when I am stealth camping in the wild. I do lock the bike when I am camped in my tent (y'never know, and I sleep more soundly as a result). The problem comes more when I am stopped in tiny towns and at rural stores to restock on food and water or eat in the odd restaurant. The bike is out of sight, which makes me nervous, 'cos there's always a good chance someone could rifle through the panniers and take the contents (HB bag goes with me). It has often occurred to me that all a thief would have to do is haul the bike behind the store and as far as I am concerned, it's gone -- Somewhere -- forever. Just that has happened to a number of tourists passing through Eugene. A couple years ago, someone stole a tandem and two singles (fully loaded) and stashed them behind the apartment building next to the Safeway store where they were parked. These tourists were in the store for 15 minutes, the area was heavily traveled, the bikes were visible and locked. It took two days for them to come to light, and by that time, most of the nicer pannier contents were gone including cameras and a laptop. They did get the bikes back, but their trip was derailed and altered in a significant way. What floored me was the attitude of passersby interviewed on television. The common concensus was the riders should have expected it for not locking the bikes "securely enough". Too bad, so sad, whaddaya expect, pretty well sums up the attitude. <floored and dismayed; I live here with such people!>
I don't want to be one of those people (on either side of the incident).
If I go with a high-security option (say, a Kryptonite New York Legend 1590 Chain Lock), then I'll be hauling a total of 10.3lb/4.7kg. So much for ultralight.
A midway solution like an Abus Granite Bordo 6500 looks appealing, but when I sketch it out the measurements, the thing is huge. Heavy, too. Various people (and Andre, whose opinion on such things I greatly respect) have noted the thing can damage bike paint, and it hasn't fared consistently well in testing. Apparently, a combination of prying and chiseling sees it part in pretty short order. The rubberized cages have lids that fatigue and fail in pretty short order.
The ring-lock with a plug-in chain is (was) awfully appealing from a weight and convenience perspective, provided it is coupled with locking skewers and fasteners for the steerer cap (TTTPlug2) and front wheel (SON28) and perhaps the rear wheel (depending on lock location). In camp, a simple flick of the plunger, and I'd be set. In a rural or small town, the same, with addition of a plug-in tether. What really sold me on it was traveling through NL and BE with my Dutch friend, who had one. It was nice to see how quickly he got the job done compared to my u-lock. His ring-lock stored itself, too. Cool! He did a round-trip from Rotterdam to Santiago de Compostela and back last May/June and only carried the ring-lock. No problems, though I would have also carried the plug-in cable.
Part of my problem is deep-down I don't want to acknowledge the need for a lock, and if I do have to carry one, I want the world -- feather weight, immediate convenience, and maximum security. Reality says I can only choose one from that list, and I have to employ it every.single.time.I'm.parked. or risk loss.
Parking to go in and get a hamburger at the Corvallis Dairy Queen is a major operation (for those outside the US, Dairy Queen is a fast-food chain known for their array of hamburgers, fries, and a wide variety of ice-cream treats including ice-cream cakes. Really. Very popular at kids' birthdays, which may help explain childhood obesity in this country. For liability reasons, bikes are no longer allowed to use the drive-up window, which was an ideal solution in the past). There's no courtyard or such to put the bike, and once I've climbed the steps and skated across the tile floor in cycling shoes, there's no way I could get to the bike in time to stop a thief even if I could see it clearly. Home of Oregon State University and halfway on my regular 108mi/174km training loop, Corvallis place has a massive problem with bike theft. To do a proper job of securing the bike, I've got to take off the rack pack, computer, pump and GPS and the nicer water bottles and Click-Stand (all are quick-strip items if left behind). Then, I've got to fish out the 5mm allen and unscrew the SON28 skewer and unhook the electrical connectors for The Plug2 and lights. The front rack gets padded with a Kleenex packet so it won't get concrete rash, and the front wheel is put next to the rear. The u-lock gets fastened high enough so it is harder to pop, and the contents juggled enough to fill the opening to prevent jacking it apart. Meanwhile, the fork and Plug2 are sitting there for the taking with just a 5mm allen key. It's a big hassle. Unless I eat inside, then this is all for the 7 minutes or so it takes me to order, and by the time I put everything back and walk to the park (not allowed to ride on the sidewalk, and no bike path on the cyclist-unfriendly street), the food is cold. Not worth it. Hence, the appeal of take-along rehydrated soup cooked on the meths stove from the Pocket Kitchen. I recently came out of the restaurant after ordering and found the bike in the next rack was missing its computer, bottle, and pump in that time and had slid well down the rack, leaving some paint behind.
This is the scenario when riding with just a rack-top pack. It is a real nail-biter for me when fully loaded, and limits where I decide to park when reprovisioning on-tour. I'll sometimes go to a firehouse and ask the crew if I can park and lock inside their garage. This is ideal if the grocery is nearby. Other times, if the grocery also incorporates a petrol station, I'll park there and buy the attendants coffee on my return.
So, a quicker, more convenient, but still-secure solution in such circumstances would be nice. That's what moved me toward a ring-lock and plug-in cable, augmented with the secure skewers and fasteners.
All the best,
Dan.
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The convenience and unobtrusiveness of the frame locks is really hard to beat! But then again it is not such a flexible solution either. Anyway it was grand fun sharing how the lock works on our teenager's bike, so no need for any apology!
Here is another possibility for you:
http://www.kryptonitelock.com/Pages/ProductInformation.aspx?PNumber=999867 (http://www.kryptonitelock.com/Pages/ProductInformation.aspx?PNumber=999867)
I got the 1518 cable which is already impressively thick. These things don't fold down to pocket size by any stretch. But 1.4 Kg isn't too horrible. Anyway, it's another interesting point in the security / weight / convenience / flexibility space.
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Hi All!
I've never stopped thinking about how I might mount a ring-lock on Sherpa, and I think I may have found the solution to having both a ring-lock in the conventional location and my Zefal HPX4.
I've been looking at clearances, and it appears the pump will fit vertically behind and parallel to the seat tube, provided the base (head) of the pump seats in a Zefal Doohicki and the top is held by a Zefal nylon, endless-clamp pump peg. The Doohicki amounts to a right-angle plastic shelf that bolts to the chainstay bridge in place of the spacer Thorn used when installing my SKS fenders.
The Doohicki was developed in the late-1980s to allow placing a full-size frame-fit pump behind the seat tube of mountain bikes. They are long out of production, but I found one in my parts bin and will see if it allows proper pump placement. If it does. there should be no impediment to mounting a ring-lock ahead of the seatstays and inside the rear triangle just as Jim and Pete have done.
I am thinking of the AXA Defender as well as the Abus 4850. They are nearly identical, but the AXA has a smaller entry (and slightly larger clearance by a mm or two at the tire end). My paper model just neatly passed the inflated Schwalbe 26x2.0 Dureme, and I often partially deflate the rear tire make installation/removal easier anyway, so this would allow a slightly wider tire to be used also. My thinking is the AXA's smaller opening might be that bit more resistant to prybar entry, and AXA also have a nifty alternative mounting method intended for ATB stays -- it amounts to a pair of vinyl-dipped cup hooks that engage a plastic spacer. It is far quicker and easier to install than the little windup metal strips AXA normally use, and allow the lock to be removed for service and reinstalled easily at a later date. The difference between the locks is almost academic, but I feel I should look at all options. Trelock are another well-regarded maker of ring-locks and I want to investigate their offerings also.
More updates as I progress.
Best,
Dan.
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For Jim K: You can discount talk about the insecurity of those Abus ringlocks. The trick of defeating them depends on having a component the availability of which is now strictly controlled in The Netherlands, and which was never available anywhere else. After my Australian friend Peter Allen alerted me to the possibility, I asked if I could have the component in Ireland, and the distributor said he would have to ask Holland; I told him that was what I wanted to know, and not to bother further as I would deal directly with the factory should the need ever arise; I also visited three locksmiths and inspected their stock and there's nothing that could be made to do the job. For practical purposes, the SL7/4850 style of lock is secure.
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For practical purposes, the SL7/4850 style of lock is secure.
Thanks for that, Andre! We are planning to move to a college town, so I expect bike theft to be a bigger problem that where we are now. Plus it's a bit bigger town so I expect there will be more opportunity to put the Azor/Workcycles to use. Woodstock is so small that it's just about as easy to walk wherever.
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Andre, Jim,
Sadly, guys, it is easier than you would think if it is one of those locks (pre-2007) with an uncorrected vulnerability. I have PM'd each of you with a relevant link to avoid publicizing the exploit. Unfortunately, the information is readily available to anyone who searches for it (and bike thieves do actively search the 'Net for exploits).
I had similar luck in my efforts on a friend's lock of this type and vintage. Both AXA (Assas) and ABUS locks shared the same vulnerability and it was discovered about the same time. ABUS offered a full refund/replacement for those affected, while AXA offered a 50% reduction on the price of a replacement.
Sigh.
Jim, if yours is one of these older locks, I would suggest changing it for a newer model, where this vulnerability has been addressed. Especially before moving to a college town. Azors are nice city bikes!
All the best,
Dan.
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(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1347.jpg)
I bought my bike in March of 2006, so it certainly comes before the vulnerability was publicized. It doesn't look like the lock in the video you sent. But certainly a bit of searching shows that the lock is plenty vulnerable.
I have looked closely at this lock and still I have not figured out how it is mounted to the bike! Replacing it would be interesting!
Probably the most worrisome thing - my sister sent me a link to a New York City bikeshop that is selling bikes just like mine. Yeah, the more this style of bike becomes recognizable... the greater the danger!
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Hi Jim,
Unfortunately, the AXA SL-7 is one of the locks with the known vulnerability and is also one of those most vulnerable to this exploit. Replacing it with, say, an AXA Defender RL would resolve the problem. The Defender is available in all-matte black, so would most closely match your present SL-7 for appearance. They're available for as little as USD$39.99 if you look online.
Your lock is most likely held on by bolting through it to two bottle cage-like braze-ons located on the forward part of your seatstays. As I recall, they are standard M5x.08 thread, and their purpose is the same as the plastic clips or whatever; to simply hold the lock in place, since it is located within the rear triangle and therefore itself secure against theft or removal if locked to the wheel. For a picture of the brazed-on mounts, see the chainstays pictured on the bicycle here: http://ronajustine.blogspot.com/2012/03/powdercoating-in-groningen.html
Many people think locks mounted like yours are not replaceable; this is untrue. The locks are designed to be replaced in the event the cylinder or the spring-return mechanism fail or in the event the owner wishes to upgrade at some point. The plastic cover removes like a clamshell, exposing the basic steel of the lock and the mounting bolts. See the diagram here:
https://data.epo.org/publication-server/html-document?PN=EP1752366%20EP%201752366&iDocId=6442612
The plastic cover is for cosmetic rather than security purposes, and lends a finished, professional look to these OEM installations. It is baffling at first glance, but easy in retrospect after you've seen the diagram and performed the task, and I'm happy to offer suggestions if you'd like.
All the best,
Dan.
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yeah, how to pop open that plastic cover is still a bit baffling. The whole bike is that way, actually. How to remove the chain case! But I am going to get this stuff figured out! Replacing the ring lock sounds like a fun project. I would certainly hate to have that bike disappear on me!
Thanks for the tips, Dan - very helpful!
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Dan, the promised link did't arrive; it may be that it was lost in the volume of mail passing here. Please send again as I am most interested.
The one way I know of defeating the lock depends on having a very specific component that one wouldn't expect to find anywhere in the US, and that I didn't actually expect to find in Ireland either. What you're talking about must be something entirely different.
Better informed than bikeless!
Andre Jute
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No problem with a resend, Andre; PM'd and emailed. Any additional questions, just let me know and I'll be glad to amplify. This is much the same technique I used on my friend's and unfortunately it was most effective. Shockingly so.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
I did it! I managed to free up space for the ring-lock on my Sherpa *and* still use my Zefal HPX pump. See:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg19454#msg19454
...and...
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1944.msg9015#msg9015
Thanks so much for the help. Next, I'll place an order for the appropriate ring-lock and off I go. Updates as available.
Again, thanks so very much for the help and assistance to patient JimK, who is a star in helping with his photos and measurements.
All the best,
Dan. (who doesn't give up on finding solutions)
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Very cool. Dan! This geometry really gets intricate! The convenience of the ring-lock is quite valuable and worth some fuss - it's some quick stop when it's just too much trouble to pull a lock out of the bag, that's a danger worth avoiding!
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The convenience of the ring-lock is quite valuable and worth some fuss - it's some quick stop when it's just too much trouble to pull a lock out of the bag, that's a danger worth avoiding!
That's definitely the key element in practical bike security, that it must be almost more bother not to use it than to use it. U=locks lose out badly on this aspect, and a ringlock scores big, especially the sort that already has the key in, waiting for you to lock it and take the key away with you. -- Andre Jute
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Hi All!
I've got a ring-lock on Sherpa, success at last!
For details and photos, see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=1944.msg19741#msg19741
I simply love the thing, and if I keep playing with it at the present rate, it will be worn out by summer's end.
Thanks again to everyone whose kind assistance and thoughts helped make this possible.
Best,
Dan. ("Lock 'n' load" has a whole new meaning 'round here...)