Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: Danneaux on March 15, 2012, 09:59:40 am
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Hi All,
For those of you preferring a drop-bar Rohloff setup who would like to go a different route than the usual Thorn T-bar mount, rotary bar-end, or Gilles Berthoud approach, "AlleyKat's" Cycling About website has a nice little photo-essay on those and various other means to get there:
http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/rohloff-hubs-with-drop-handlebars/
Basically, these are alternative placements and mounts for the traditional Rohloff rotary shifter. Many could be used with straight 'bars as well, should one prefer placement elsewhere. There's some innovative thinking here.
Alex did a nice job on this roundup!
Best,
Dan.
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excellent site dan some great ideas ;)
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Good find Dan, thanks for sharing.
I can't help thinking that the Berthoud shifter is almost the right answer to the Rohloff and drops conundrum ,but it needs refinement. For example the exposed cable grooves on the barrel look as though they will guide water straight down the cables unless the unit is installed with them exiting upwards. The alloy twistgrip will also provide a heatsink for fingers.
If this element of the design was sorted out properly for 31.8mm drop bars a Thorn Mercury all weather Audax type bike-also with carbon/disc front fork and proper mudguard!- would force me to sell my granny. (Bars that are 31.8mm all the way across the top give me lovely large fat cushiony handrest area and great rigidity when climbing on the hoods).
It still amazes me how good and well thought out the original Rohloff hub and shifter designs are and how little development has been required in 13 or so years. It also amazes me no one has reverse engineered and upscaled the shifter.
Rohlon the Rohloff future!
Ian
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Hi Ian,
A Rohloff as currently offered doesn't quite fit my needs (or perhaps I'm not quite "ready" to fully embrace it as-is), but (caveat follows) given I haven't ridden/owned one, ;) a "Danneaux's Dream Roadie-Rohloff" might have:
- Some means to be shifted from drop handlebars...yet leave the entire gripping surface of the handlebars (tops 'n' drops) free for hands. This implies some sort of brifter, push-push, or lever-actuated bar-end mount. Or a true Di2-type actuation, though I'd like to stay with cables for ultimate reliability.
- This implies something other than the current rotary-grip shifter; perhaps something like the present rotary, slimmed down and snugged firm against the side of the stem or the rotary grip with a thumbable fin extension to actuate the dial? Or maybe anchoring one cable with a spring/demultiplicator a la the old Simplex gear cable leverage adapter, while the other end is lever-operated? Or a double-geared actuator like the dial on a shortwave radio, so one could grab a whole handful of change in a small movement or select more finely as desired. Better yet: Put a travel multiplier inside a modified EX shift box, so smaller movement of the actuator lever would still result in the proper amount of cable travel at the shifter.
- Right-angle exit from shifter for a better cable run, yet still have low friction if it was configured this way.
- The ability to be readily fitted to 31.8mm 'bar diameter.
- All of the above with really good weather-sealing of the controls, compact size and light weight.
- Duplex or coaxial routing of cables within a single housing to eliminate one entire cable run between 'bars and rear hub. Given the relative lack of tension in the cable runs compared to derailleurs-and-return springs, the housing could be thinner, allowing for a greater internal diameter for the same size; coating the exterior of the cable loop might well the cable halves to slide past each other in a shared housing with little more friction than at present.
- More than 14 gears /and/or/ having the current gears arranged logarithmically so there is a great difference in steps at lower gears, with finer spacing as they progress upward, to better match (my) rider output.
- Hub flanges that are angled inward toward the hub center, and with threaded,replaceable hub flanges, a la the early modular Phil Wood hub designs (those had stainless-tube centers and alu flanges held together with high-strength LocTite /or/ or spline-locked flanges and hub centers. The angled flanges would ease oblique-lateral forces on the hub and allow for full spoke support of each spoke as it left the large-diameter hub. Would also allow a single shell to be configured with any drilling or even mixed drilling. And, yes, I'd make 'em with 36 holes to better spread stress across the flange and allow use of more tangential 3x spoke patterns.
I know, this might be viewed as heresy if for no other reason than the present setup has worked and continues to work so well and reliably as-is for so many users. I'm also guessing my wish list is hovering in my mind precisely because I'm not a user/owner, and frankly am not familiar with the unit having never ridden one. Still, the whole idea of a Rohloff hub would have more initial appeal if it had some version of some of these ideas in place.
To owners: Are there things you would wish for on your hub/shifter if you had exclusive access to Rohloff's design team for a single hour?
To non-owners (especially those who prefer drop-handlebars): Price aside, what would it take for you to switch to a Rohloff?
Best,
Dan (Rohloff admirer and "what might be" Rohloff dreamer)
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A dozen and one (and probably many more)!
A clever approach, using the base clamp from a Cinelli Spinaci mini-aero-bar to hold a stub-'bar to place the Rohloff in plane with but just ahead of the tops of a drop-handlebar: See: http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12836
Interesting related thread here: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=51775.0
Best,
Dan.
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- This implies something other than the current rotary-grip shifter; perhaps something like the present rotary, slimmed down and snugged firm against the side of the stem or the rotary grip with a thumbable fin extension to actuate the dial?
Quite a bit of misguided cleverness here, solutions to the wrong problem.
Tick off the great truths of derailleur gear chances: you change to the right gear before you need to, and you change one gear at a time because that is the efficient way to keep up speed, and you need to be moving to change gear.
None of this is true on a Rohloff gearbox. If you're lazy, you can change into the right gear after it becomes obvious you need it. You can change several gears at once without any penalty. And you can change gears at a perfect standstill.
Forget the ratios; they turn out to suit 99.99 of people once they get a little experience with them; the important thing is to get the right starter ratio (gear 11 is direct drive) for your sort of riding and roads and loads, from the illegal 36x16 that Andy Blance likes for heavily laden touring in muddy, mountainous places, through the warrantied 38x16 I find enough even on my steep but short home hill, all the way to the common 42 and 44 and even 46 chain wheels with 16 or 17 tooth sprockets liked by the fast tourers.
If you get this right, the Rohloff box will invite you to change gears all the time, and if you get it wrong, you will have to change gears all the time. Whichever it is, you will not only change gears differently from on derailleur bike, but more often. After the Rohloff box is worn a little past its first awkwardness (several of us have written on this board about the agricultural aspects of the best bicycle gearbox in the world), you won't even notice that you're changing gears all the time.
We hear a lot about efficiency from the derailleur crowd, and I imagine you could write enticingly about it too, but it is always under the assumption that you choose your gear at the bottom of the hill, because once you start the hill, you're stuck with it. That is clearly a compromise solution, efficiency bartered for a mechanical necessity.
Neither the assumption of one gear, nor the place of its choice, holds true for a Rohloff. You just change gears all the way up the hill to give you the most efficient ratio at any point, not some notional average efficiency for the whole hill, chosen at the bottom, as with derailleurs.
I trust you can now see why the Rohloff box's control must be permanently under your hand (I could never understand the stupidity of making it triangular -- that's leftover roadie influence and thinking, quite irrelevant) or only a finger and thumb movement away.
In my non-roadie opinion a roadie who puts the control of Rohloff gearbox more than millimetres from his handhold has misunderstood its capabilities and purpose, and will never realise its full potential.
My ideal Rohloff gearshift grip is just plain round, the full length of the straight part of your handlebar (sawable to length like a steerer tube), minimum length the full width of your handgrip, meant to be dressed up in whatever you have on the other side (leather, foam, cork, anything) like a motorcycle accelerator grip.
Andre Jute
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Andre, I do love your writing and essays, and I always learn from our exchanges and value your thoughts and views.
I surely do wish I had the opportunity to actually try a Rohloff, even for a brief test ride. I am certain you are correct that actual use would more fully flesh out all I have read and heard of these wonderful devices, and -- yes! -- it is even likely I might develop views similar to your own. I'm not at all resistant to the allures of Rohloff's siren song; it is mostly a problem of access and funds for yet another bike. If I won the lottery, I know a Rohloff-hubbed Thorn would magically appear in my stable mere seconds later. Until I can ride one, it is all conjecture and imagination, try as I might to fully understand the ethos of it all. To put yourself in that position, imagine a cyclist who had only ridden a coaster-brake bike suddenly exposed to the idea of a fully-realized 27-sp derailleur drivetrain with freehub and hand-operated brakes. Though it might sound wonderful, there really is no frame of reference to fully comprehend the entire riding experience short of a test ride. I think that's precisely why I am so intrigued by your eloquent endorsements and explanations, and why I so appreciate them.
Ah, me.
The nearest personal experience I have with internally-geared hubs is in several Sturmey-Anciens er, Archer hubs in 3- and 5-speed flavors. The most recent is on the 1970 Motobecane/Astra U-frame folder I fully restored and gave to my father. Before that, back in childhood, I owned a Schwinn Sting-Ray with the Eunuch Shifter option (it looked much like the Hurst floor shifter from a '60s muscle car and was wonderful except for it's castrato side effects that came into play with every deliberate and inadvertent dismount -- one simply could not get off the bike without one's delicate parts becoming painfully impaled. Thankfully, I outgrew it before incurring any permanent damage).
Still, I think Rohloff-equipped bikes might be more relatable for derailleur-roadies if they had controls that were somewhat familiar in position if not function. As with those who prefer straight 'bars, it is helpful to have familiar controls fall readily to hand on drop-handlebars. That more than a dozen ways have been developed or bodged by users is mute testimony to this need, and it is fun to see the creativity and ingenuity that has been put into making it possible to adapt the existing rotary control to better suit riders of drop-'bar bikes. At the same time, it is heartening to hear just how well the Rohloff rotary control meets the majority of rider needs and it certainly is a paragon of reliability and does indeed have many virtues.
So, thank you Andre, for being patient with those of us who do not yet own Rohloff-equipped bikes, and for sharing your passion for them. I always come away richer for it.
All the best,
Dan.
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Still, I think Rohloff-equipped bikes might be more relatable for derailleur-roadies if they had controls that were somewhat familiar in position if not function.
I think it probably works the other way round. The apparent relationship to rotary derailleur controls can mislead someone who hasn't used a hub gearbox long enough to grasp the difference in outlook and riding practice that comes with a hub gearbox.
A Rohloff has a downside. It is a Catholic bike transmission. It lasts so long, you have to marry it for life, and forswear further techie interests in the transmission area.
Andre Jute
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But it's also true that the derailleur can swap gears under load, the more refined the version, the more easily it will do so. The Rohloff can't.
Also one of the new electric derailleur offerings (Campag?) can fly through their gears just by holding your finger down on the lever.
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Mmm. Rohloff, once you get the hang of it, requires only a very small slowing on the pedals rather than a complete liftoff to change smoothly under load.
I have a bike with full-electronic hub gearbox switching, the Nexus Di2 for comfort/commuter bikes that Shimano called "Smover" or Cybernexus.
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html
Generally speaking, I prefer my Rohloff, but if I lived in less hilly country perhaps it would be the other way round. I don't think I would go back to derailleurs even with full autoswitching, as in my Smover, never mind the cut-down "electronically assisted manual switching" of the Dura-Ace Di2 or the Italian version you mention. Frankly, I regard those as functionally irrelevant, for poseurs. But then I'm not a roadie.
It would be interesting to know whether Thorn, a sort of Bauhaus of bicycles where function is everything and the customers presumably not easily taken in with pointless bling, sell many of those electronically assisted gear change setups.
Is there anyone at all here who finds changing gears on their Rohloff a hardship or even a nuisance? (Sorry to hijack your thread, Dan, but it's a closely related question to trying to make the Rohloff rotary control more universally useful.)
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A Rohloff has a downside. It is a Catholic bike transmission. It lasts so long, you have to marry it for life, and forswear further techie interests in the transmission area.
Love it !! ;D
I must admit my LBS has been lamenting my non-appearance on the door-step. All I've had to do is lube the chain a few times, tension the EBB setting and change the hub oil once in the past 14 months.
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We hear a lot about efficiency from the derailleur crowd, and I imagine you could write enticingly about it too, but it is always under the assumption that you choose your gear at the bottom of the hill, because once you start the hill, you're stuck with it. That is clearly a compromise solution, efficiency bartered for a mechanical necessity.
It does sound like it has been quite a while since you last rode a derailleur bike there, Andre. I love my Rohloff, however its gear shift responsiveness is only a little bit better than a well-looked after modern derailleur gear shift. On my derailleur bikes I routinely can shift on the climb, and even while standing up (one thing I find awkward with a Rohloff grip-shift). Shimano introduced Hyperglide with all its gates and pins, to enable shifting under load, many years ago catering to the requirements of the MTB racing scene, with its sudden sharp gradient changes.
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The last time I had a bike with derailleurs, they were made by Hurst-Duret, and the bike itself was a Peugeot so expensive that it was stuck at the distributor for several years, and the managing director made a round trip of 400 miles to come sell it to me in person. It was a beautifully handmade disaster of bad fit and mechanics I didn't get along with; it made my physio and my parts pusher rich, and I nearly gave up cycling. Then I discovered that Shimano was upgrading their shopping Nexus 3sp hub gearboxes to 7, later 8 speeds, and my life changed. I think you can fairly say that I have zero experience of modern derailleurs, and furthermore that I am biased against them.
I'm hardly ever out of the saddle, but it would be easier for me even with a Rohloff because I'm an aficionado of North Road bars. These have the side benefit (conveniently on-topic!) that, if the straight part of the handlebar isn't too short, a Rohloff rotary control is an easy fit.
While we're on the subject of North Road bars, I imagine they are too staid for the hardcore roadies. But flip them over and they're moustache bars. That's what racing bars used to look like into living memory. The Rohloff control still fits easily. Now get a toollessly adjustable stem from Kalloy or, if you want a really good one, get the Gazelle Switch; I love mine. Now you can ride the moustache bars around town like a comfort bike, sitting upright, and with a flip of the lever, a downward rotation of the stem, another rotation of the handlebars to angle the grips somewhere between 30 and 60 degrees to the ground, you have turned a town/comfort/commuting/touring bike into a downhill racer you ride with a horizontal back; the better aerodynamics are worth up to 6mph on the hills around here. It helps to have a quick release seat post, perhaps engraved with some heights, to raise the seat when you lower and angle the bars. In this manner you get all the advantages of drop bars and a Rohloff installation that works conveniently as it is supposed to.
Andre Jute
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Dan, Andre, your tact and lightness of touch is an example to us all.
Dan, I was fascinated by Rohloffs for about 5 years and had to put myself out of my misery by buying one for empirical testing. On a rough stuff explorer, all weather, all year bike with flat bars it does everything Andy B claims in the Thorn literature. If I could have one on a drop bar bike with the rotary control slid along the bar, right up to the stem (ie 31.8mm diameter) I would. No other solution would cut it for me. Andre really has summed up the essence of it all above.
Think of a purchase as an investment in scientific research Dan ;)
Happy days
Ian
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Think of a purchase as an investment in scientific research Dan
Your logic is unassailable and indisputable; I am lost to its siren song, doomed to crash upon the rocks of bicycle desire, a modern-day Odysseus drawn to the inevitable doom of expanding ownership. Tie me to the mast! It is too late to cork my ears with wax.
Or, in a more modern context, "Resistance is futile, assimilation inevitable" in the Thorn Collective.
What hope have I? Ian, you resisted for five whole years, and then....
It is a disease, isn't it?: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4061.0
Sighing at the inevitable path my life is taking....
Best,
Dan.
(Thanks for the kind words and gentle encouragement, Ian; this is why this forum is a rare gem to be valued among those online...).
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Think of a purchase as an investment in scientific research Dan ;)
For the Advancement of Physics!
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For the Advancement of Physics!
Oh, now, Andre...that's just not fair! How can I ever resist an argument like that?!? ;D
Doomed Dan. (...who really would try a Rohloff Thorn if he had the ready cash for one. What's the Lotto totaling today?)
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Hi All!
Motivated by and exploring ways to fit the Rohloff shifter to drop 'bars has resulted in a couple of questions I am hoping might be answerable:
1) How much pressure is required to rotate the Rohloff shifter? Is it quite a lot (as in upshifting a trigger-shift), it is it more like a doorknob with little detents? Is there some means for comparison with an everyday or cycling task that could convey how much pressure is required for rotation? Can you give me some idea how freely turning the shifter is between detents and to move from a detent?
2) How many degrees of rotational movement is required for a shift the entire range, from "gear" 1-14.
Both these questions would be instantly answerable if I had one at hand to try, but I don't. Thanks very much; I have an idea in mind that is percolating away on the back burner.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
1. More than using a rapidfire trigger shifter, less than using a gripshift, nearer to the gripshift effort but smoother - the gripshift goes to the next position with a sharp click.
I find it easier to keep rotating and get a multi gear shift with the Rohloff, limited only by my wrist rotation.
2. Going from gear 1 to gear 12 uses 240º of grip rotation precisely. So that would be (240 * 13 / 11) or 283.64º
Julian.
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Dan,
I would say the notchy door-knob analogy would be fairly close to the way the shifter feels, fairly light and easy to shift, and the rotational information is available on this page (http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/speedhub/technics/index.html) of the Rohloff website, 21 degrees per gear, or 273 degrees from top to bottom gear.
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Rual,
That's tremendously helpful; thanks! Just what I wanted.
Now I have the information, what I was pondering is the possibility of mounting the shifter inverted on a clamp-on post below the tops of a drop handlebar, then fitting the rubber grip with a clamp-on, winged or posted cylinder for thumb-finger push-pull operation. One of my drawings looks a bit like an old ship's wheel set horizontally. With "only" 230° of movement, perhaps only five posts would be needed, and all in a row rather than distributed 'round the grip.
I recently made a knob-assistive device for someone with hand movement and strength limited by a stroke. Got me to thinking about bicycle applications.
What I am pondering ss something that would allow alternate thumb-finger operation from the tops of drop 'bars, an effect somewhere between Shimano's RapidFire trigger shifters and the old SunTour Command shift ( http://thevintagefuji.blogspot.com/2011/07/suntour-command-shifters.html ) without adding complication or altering the Rohloff shifter internally. I envision a clamp-on adapter and post. Wouldn't take me long to machine a prototype, but I really can't go farther with the idea without an example at hand; I have nothing to model it on. Just thinking after spending some time with the machine tools this morning.
I think any successful drop-'bar solution will only really work if it is as simple and straighforward as the original Rohloff rotational shifter. If it could be adapted from same, so much the better.
Best,
Dan.
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For the effort, it actually changes depending on the load of the pedals. The more load on the pedal, the more effort. The door knob comparison is without load on the pedals.
For the grip rotation, this value is for the Rohloff grip. But it depends of the diameter of the grip because what is needed is a given motion of the cable (the indexation is in the hub, the cable must move a given length to shift to the next gear, there are two cables, one to shift up from 1 to 14, the other to shift down from 14 to 1). Some other grips for Rohloff have a different diameter and as consequence a different rotation (there is for instance a 360 degree grip).
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Thanks for that added observation, Fleur; very helpful as well!
Some other grips for Rohloff have a different diameter and as consequence a different rotation
I see what you are saying, though the hub diameter (the part 'round which the cables are placed) must stay a constant size, even if the diameter of the grip changes.
A larger grip diameter would comprise a greater moment arm from the shifter's hub axle, effectively changing the leverage at the hand; cable actuation and travel would of course remain the same. Doesn't the shifter hub diameter remain the same regardless of grip diameter?
My, this gets the creative juices flowing...
Also a good observation relating actuation effort to pedal force. When I read that one has to momentarily ease off on pedaling pressure to shift, I figured it was to ease load on the internal components, including the shifting mechanism.
Best,
Dan.
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The cable pull is 7.4mm per gear according to the page I linked to above, so if the cable 'spool' of the shifter is of a different diameter to the Rohloff version then the angles of rotation must be different to suit.
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...if the cable 'spool' of the shifter is of a different diameter to the Rohloff version then the angles of rotation must be different to suit.
Got it; makes perfect sense, and reconciles what seemed to be two different approaches. Thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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What I am dreaming of is a bar end shifter for the Rohloff instead of the rotating grip.
It should be possible to make a bar end shifter with two cables and the cables travel needed by the Rohloff.
All second sources also make rotating grips, there is one german company that announces a thumb shifter for the Rohloff but none makes a bar end shifter.
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I think a conventional lever bar-end shifter for Rohloff is going to be a practical impossibility. The shifter rotates 270 degrees and the approximate diameter of the cable drum would be about 40mm. You wold be pushing to get 270 degrees of lever movement (if you did it would be very awkward operation) so this would demand an even larger cable drum. On your bar end this is going to be awfully clunky.
It is already quite feasible to have Rohloff shifting on the bar-end at present - yes it's clunky too :-X
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7187/7076652559_358369d13c.jpg)
Dan, this design (http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/2011/01/28/custom-downtube-shifter-for-rohloff/) might be of interest in you desire to fit a shifter elsewhere on the bars. It's a much lower profile design.
(http://hubstripping.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/das-knob.jpg)
Gilles Berthoud has also made a shifter that has somewhat different dimensions and can be slid right up along the bars around the bends to have a gripshift on the tops.
(http://cyclingabout.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/gilles-berthoud-rohloff-shifter-01.jpg)
Perhaps this shifter (http://www.minortriad.com/twist.html) is more your style Dan?? ;D
(http://www.minortriad.com/twist2.jpg)
Mittelmeyer do a similar bar-mount one. They aso have been working on a design for a brifter-style for Rohloff. It's been 'in the pipeline' for quite some time and I think is currently due for release in September.
(http://www.mittelmeyer.de/Fahrradteile/BSG-Rennlenker/00438001_iso_150x180_.jpg)
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I think a conventional lever bar-end shifter for Rohloff is going to be a practical impossibility. The shifter rotates 270 degrees and the approximate diameter of the cable drum would be about 40mm. You wold be pushing to get 270 degrees of lever movement (if you did it would be very awkward operation) so this would demand an even larger cable drum. On your bar end this is going to be awfully clunky.
This is the difficulty of making a bar end shifter, the drum cannot be directly operated by the lever, there should be a demultiplication between the lever and the drum so that the drum turns a bigger angle than the lever. When this is done, the cable can be rolled around the drum more than one turn and the drum turning more than 360 degree so that a smaller diameter drum can be used.
Seen how thin the Mittelmeyer thumb shifter is, I suspect there is a smaller drum that turn more than 360 degree in it.
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This sounds like someone taking the simplicity of a hammer and making it more complex so the hammer will fit in their pocket. The Rohloff shifter is extremely simple with just a rotating barrel that two cables connect into. Adding extra leverage and connecting barrels will make it far more bulky, and more likely to fail in prolonged use.
For ideal drop-bar shifting maybe you need to go down this path (http://www.edsanautomation.com.au/EdsanProducts.htm) ??
(http://www.edsanautomation.com.au/images/images/System3.gif)
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Well, operating a rotating shifter on a drop bar always requires that you move your hands to reach it. The "knob" that you show was made to be mounted on the frame and it has the same disadvantage that the Gilles Berthoud shifter that the cables and the drum are not protected from dirt, water... I saw a picture of it installed on a bike and the cables were naked and under tension what is normally not good for the Rohloff.
I have also seen the electronic/electric shifter this is a nice solution but it is very bulky. Seen what Shimano did on the Di2, it probably would be possible to make a very small electronic shifter but it requires big investments that Shimano and Campagnolo are able to do but impossible for a small company.
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The "knob" that you show was made to be mounted on the frame and it has the same disadvantage that the Gilles Berthoud shifter that the cables and the drum are not protected from dirt, water...
I would agree with this - bare cables leading into the housing is not such a good idea. But that is not what I was saying - the Rohloff shifter as is, is a good simple idea and works well.
I have also seen the electronic/electric shifter this is a nice solution but it is very bulky. Seen what Shimano did on the Di2, it probably would be possible to make a very small electronic shifter but it requires big investments that Shimano and Campagnolo are able to do but impossible for a small company.
I believe that the range of cable pull for a derailleur gear system is a good deal less than for the Rohloff - the reason why this is a problem adapting other shifter designs. I think that would present difficulties for a Di2 tpe of electronic shift - the motor would need to work a longer range and perhaps have a larger actuator.
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My shifter was originally set up like this:
(http://www.rodbikes.com/catalog/makeshift/images/makeshift6-6.jpg)
But l found the location and wrist angle required to rotate it to be awkward. I had it moved to the right barend and I find it much more ergonomic than regular barend shifters. My hand falls right on it without having having to look for it and the rotation is natural because of the neutral wrist angle. Now if I could only remember which way to turn it!
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When I look at the Rohloff cable routing on your beautiful tandem, I see that it actually looks like a routing made for a derailleur system : tight cables with only small parts with an outer casing and/or cable guides and big parts with bare cables instead of a continuous outer casing from the grip to the hub and relatively loose cables as recommended for optimal gear switching of a Rohloff hub and as implemented on the Raven Twin tandem for instance.
I am also curious how you put the Rohloff shifter at the end of your right barend : in the normal position or reversed (to rotate with your wrist instead of thumb and first finger), do you have a picture of the modified implementation of the shifter ? FYI, on my tandem, I have to rotate it with my wrist and found that the new Rohloff shifter (called the lightweight version) is easier to operate when installed like that.
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When I look at the Rohloff cable routing on your beautiful tandem, I see that it actually looks like a routing made for a derailleur system : tight cables with only small parts with an outer casing and/or cable guides and big parts with bare cables instead of a continuous outer casing from the grip to the hub and relatively loose cables as recommended for optimal gear switching of a Rohloff hub and as implemented on the Raven Twin tandem for instance
The cable runs through housings from the shifter to the downtube and is bare from there to the chainstay, where it runs though housings up to the shift box. The Rohloff cable that runs in housings all the way only looks loose because it doesn't have to be tight, it can be just hung from the frame. I think that the bare cabling looks better and since our tandem is ridden exclusively on-road, dirt getting into the housings is not an issue.
I am also curious how you put the Rohloff shifter at the end of your right barend : in the normal position or reversed (to rotate with your wrist instead of thumb and first finger), do you have a picture of the modified implementation of the shifter ? FYI, on my tandem, I have to rotate it with my wrist and found that the new Rohloff shifter (called the lightweight version) is easier to operate when installed like that.
I don't have a photo, but it's mounted just like this one:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7187/7076652559_358369d13c.jpg)
It's just stuck on the right barend with a Hubbub adapter. I don't know what you mean by wrist instead of thumb and first finger, but I just drop my hand to the barend and turn it either toward me or away from me.
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The cable runs through housings from the shifter to the downtube and is bare from there to the chainstay, where it runs though housings up to the shift box. The Rohloff cable that runs in housings all the way only looks loose because it doesn't have to be tight, it can be just hung from the frame. I think that the bare cabling looks better and since our tandem is ridden exclusively on-road, dirt getting into the housings is not an issue.
Since there are two cables, one to shift up from 1 ro 14 and another one to shift down from 14 to 1 with the indexing in the hub, it is advised to have relatively loose cables with a Rohloff, not tight cables like with a derailleur system where the indexing is in the grips or levers. There are explanation of this on the Thorn website. The bare parts of the cables force you to have them relatively tight.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7187/7076652559_358369d13c.jpg)
It's just stuck on the right barend with a Hubbub adapter. I don't know what you mean by wrist instead of thumb and first finger, but I just drop my hand to the barend and turn it either toward me or away from me.
I mean turning the shifter the other way around to have the cables output at the extremity of your barend instead of the rubber rotating part of the shifter. Then the rubber part comes under your wrist when your hand is on your barend.
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Since there are two cables, one to shift up from 1 ro 14 and another one to shift down from 14 to 1 with the indexing in the hub, it is advised to have relatively loose cables with a Rohloff, not tight cables like with a derailleur system where the indexing is in the grips or levers. There are explanation of this on the Thorn website. The bare parts of the cables force you to have them relatively tight.
Cables in a derailleur system are tight because they're under spring tension. What you want in a Rohloff system just a little bit of play in the shifter. My cables are not "tight"; it doesn't take much slack to provide the play needed.
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It's worth noting that the lighter rohloff shifter may make the bar end orientation reversible. If you slide the shifter on the other way round then you can shift without removing your hand from the drops.
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It's worth noting that the lighter rohloff shifter may make the bar end orientation reversible. If you slide the shifter on the other way round then you can shift without removing your hand from the drops.
You can do this with either the old or the new shifter, but I think it is all a bit of a moot point anyway. Either way around you would just slide your hand back to the shifter.
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(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/shifter.jpg)
This has worked well for me. Like most Rohloff owners I am always looking for the Holy Grail Shifter but, that would be an STI solution.
The accessory bar solution is as convenient as I need. It's a heavy touring bike that I ride in a relaxed way. I'm not changing gear every few seconds like I find myself doing on my 30spd 105 road bike.
If I think back a few years then I was happily using downtube shifters. The accessory bar solution is better than that.
Basically I stopped looking for the Holy Grail after a lovely camping trip in France this year. I don't remember changing gear so it can't have been an issue.
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Hi Fred,
Thanks very much for posting that photo of your Rohloff shifter mount with drop handlebars. For many reasons, it is the approach that appeals most to me at present. It is clean, handy, and about the same reach as one would have to bar-end shifters.
Fred...do you think the same shifter setup could be successfully mounted on a Thorn 105mm Accessory T-bar, as used to support a handlebar bag? It would sit a bit farther ahead than your 55mm version, but would be an elegant way of combining a bar-bag mount with the shifter if it could be done.
Or, if there was enough room on the steerer below the stem, perhaps the two T-bars could be stacked; they're surprisingly light....
Here's photos of both from SJS Cycles:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-105-mm-extension-0-deg-prod11040/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-55-mm-extension-0-deg-prod11041/
Best,
Dan.
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I'm still undecided whether to choose a flat bar or drops when I order my Nomad.
Done about 600 kms so far on my current bike trying out flat bars/bar-ends. As I intend to use the bike for local commuting when I get the Nomad I also fitted a Nexus 8 Premium hub gear to "simulate" the Rohloff, but with Alfine rapidfire shifter rather than twistgrip.
The bar-ends I am currently trying are the long ones that curve back inwards, so I have 3 main hand positions like I had on the drops. For these tests I put the shifter in the usual place for a flat bar, on the tops next to the right-hand brake lever.
In the 1st hand position on the tops I definitely prefer flat bars.
In the 2nd position gripping the longitudinal bit of the bar-ends with flat bars or on the lever hoods with drops I prefer the drops.
The 3rd position is more stretched out and either gripping the transversal bit of the bar-ends or crouched down on the drops. I don't use this position so often, so the difference between flats and drops in this position matters less for me.
The way I had my drops set up has another advantage - braking in all 3 positions, with the auxiliary levers on the tops. With flat bars I can only brake in the 1st position.
Because the brakes and gears are in the 1st position with flat bars I find I spend proportionately more time there - maybe 50/60 %. With drops I spend 70/90% of time in the 2nd position on the hoods.
If I go for drop bars I am considering 3 different solutions for the gear shifter:
A- use the Berthoud shifter and have it on the tops near the stem.
B- fit the shifter in the bar-end position (with Berthoud no need for the Hubbub adapter?). I had bar end shifters with derailleur gears and never noticed any problems apart from occasionally banging or scraping the shifter when parking the bike.
C- have the Rohloff shifter on an extension bar under the main handlebar. I briefly had this setup on a drop bar Moulton with a SRAM 7 gripshift, but didn't really use it enough to know whether it was a good solution for me or not.
Solution A looks neatest, but I am not sure whether it would work with auxiliary brake levers on the tops.
Solution B might be better for me as I am already used to moving my hand from hoods to bar-end.
I don't use a handlebar bag and don't have GPS or lights on the bars, so handlebar space/cable clearance isn't really an issue for me.
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Hi Martin!
On the theory it might help to hear a similar view, I'll weigh in here again.
I'm really fascinated by your post, as it includes so many of my own concerns, particularly when you wrote...The way I had my drops set up has another advantage - braking in all 3 positions, with the auxiliary levers on the tops. With flat bars I can only brake in the 1st position.
Like you, I use auxiliary levers on the tops of my drop 'bars, and have found them to be really helpful. I also use wide (44cm) drop 'bars, and -- yes -- I do ride most of the time atop the brake hoods. However, I also spend a surprising amount of time on the drops (hooks), particularly when going into a headwind. In my desert touring, afternoon winds regularly hold steady at 35-39mph/56-63kph, with gusts to about 45mph/72kph. I spent a lot of my time riding north along the North Sea in The Netherlands in similar winds, pedaling with my "knees inside my elbows" to present a smaller face to the wind.
I have found my wrists (hyperflexion on one, hyperextension on the other from a ballooning accident when dumped out of a gondola), elbows (tennis elbow/tendonitis), and shoulders (rotator cuff and separations from a past car accident) just don't tolerate straight 'bars well. My palms like to face each other when I extend my arms. 'Bar ends on straight 'bars would be a ready option (same position as atop brake hoods, just as you've found), but I have no drops, and no brakes on the bar-ends (also as you've found).
I pretty much have to make drop 'bars work for me, and I need braking in all three major positions. With drops, if I spend 90% of my time atop the hoods, it is also with my fingers wrapped around the lever blades. On the tops, I have my interrupter levers. On the drops, I have the full length of the regular brake levers to grab.
Thinking about Pete's (Il Padrone's) very good suggestion of H-bars...they come very close, but I would need to use them with two sets of levers. I have even considered fitting bullhorn pursuit-style 'bars in place of drops -- I'd have the tops and a wonderful forward extension wthout the weight or complication of bar-ends...but no drops, which I would miss terribly for the times when I really need/want them (wind).
The Berthoud shifter would be the best option if one shifts frequently, as many owners suggest is the case with Rohloff, thanks to its ease of use. However, I don't think the Berthoud shifter would give me the room I need for my other stuff. Unlike you, I'll be carrying a handlebar bag, and there's a lot going on near the stem (see pics here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg17095#msg17095 ). Also, I have some concerns about the uncoated aluminum surface in extreme heat and cold. Air temps are often around 124F/51C in the desert or down around 5F/-15 on mountain passes in shoulder seasons. Aluminum is a great conductor of both heat and cold, and I'm a little concerned the shifter could get awfully hot/cold. Maybe this is a baseless concern, but it did occur to me. Thoughts?
A bar-end position is promising and very close the familiar bar-end shifter position. The "Rohloff on T-bar" like Rual's is not much of an adjustment if you're used to downtube shifters as I am.
Still trying to decide myself...please let us know when you reach a decision; I'd love to hear which you go with, and how it works out for you.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
For the person who will be going the Rohloff route but has never ridden one, a question for those more experienced:
How much force is required for a Rohloff shift? Does the shifter require a palm-and-fingers grip, or could it be accomplished on a T-bar by "spinning" the grip with only the finger-tips? I've sometimes heard the eaction compared to turning a doorknob, but I've found doorknobs vary a lot in the force required to turn them.
The amount of force required would make a difference in which location I chose.
Thanks in advance for any first-person accounts wrt shifting force required.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
Fingertip 'spinning' of the shifter wouldn't really be possible, its a bit stiffer to turn than that.
My shifter is on the bar end using hubub adapter, and I like it there, much better than the other options in my opinion, mainly because you can hold the shifter and steer easily at the same time, as your hand is out where you get good leverage on the bars, and also because if you are riding on the hoods you just let your hand naturally drop down a few inches and the shifter is right there. Inboard shifter positions such as on a t-bar or on the tops, seem less convenient to me and you have less steering control if your hand is in near the centreline of the bike while you change gear.
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Hi All I love running Drop Bar's too and after year's trying to mount the the Rohloff gear change on and about the H'Bar's.
Thorn 55mm Accessory T-bar worked OK until I climbed my 1st hill standing! knee hit it :(
Mount on bar end was OK But I did not like it for me!
I tryed to mount off the front (by stem) no room for my finger's :'( I think using a 105mm T-Bar would be the same?
I ended up running it off the side of the stem, I welded up a mounting that replaced the top cap (I would love to add photo of it but can not work out how too ?? :-[)
It worked good for me, But i'm alway's looking for a new idea!
For my next bike (my New Nomad) i'm going to try running a set of Jeff Jones Loop H-Bar® handlebar's.
All most all of the hand placements of a Good Drop Bar! :o
Can only try new thing's and see?
Pete
;)
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Could you run the shifter on the front extension of the H-bar ?? Or is that curve intractable?
(http://i.jpjt.net/images/72419-63580/20080326080halfcrop.jpg)
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Could you run the shifter on the front extension of the H-bar ?? Or is that curve intractable?
(http://i.jpjt.net/images/72419-63580/20080326080halfcrop.jpg)
Not on the one your have in Photo! older H-Bars had no curve.
But look up the new Loop H-Bar® it's designed to be run with a Rohloff Shifter, http://www.jonesbikes.com/h-bar.html (http://www.jonesbikes.com/h-bar.html)
Pete
;)
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Yes, I've seen them before and been tempted! But I do so like my bar-ends, especially for climbing and variation of hand position. The H-bars don't really give this hand angle and they make it impractical to fit bar-ends.
(http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/7617/2803314440074746151S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2803314440074746151QUMfSk)
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How much force is required for a Rohloff shift? Does the shifter require a palm-and-fingers grip, or could it be accomplished on a T-bar by "spinning" the grip with only the finger-tips?
Fingertip shifting doesn't work with my fingers and my standard Rohloff shifter. I can shift just fine with my thumb and index finger, but I have to get the top two segments of my index finger into the action and the full pad of my thumb. The standard way my shifter is mounted, I shift using a flex/extend action of my wrist. I think that gives more force that keeping the wrist joint fixed and rotating the whole forearm.
Amazing how all these design decisions interact with each other. I wonder if it could work to have the shifter mounted on the frame, like a downtube shifter, or even in a similar spot on the top tube. I mounted a light similarly:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/809124-light-at-bottom-of-head-tube (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/809124-light-at-bottom-of-head-tube)
but this specific trick wouldn't be secure enough for a shifter. Maybe it will trigger a better idea?!
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Calling Dan just after dawning on me dan how will you attach the gearshift on your new nomad
please tell me your not using straight bars :'(
your a drop man true and true ;D ;D
or will we have to wait to see the new nomad build special.
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Most likely, I will go the same route as Fred, as shown in his post here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4049.msg20870#msg20870
I was thinking of putting the shifter on the end of the longer T-bar, but I am now thinking of a slightly different approach: Perhaps, put the Rohloff on the short T-bar just beneath the stem, then use the longer T-bar to mount my handlebar bag just above the headset, thus reducing the number of spacers needed in-between. Thr T-bars don't weigh much, and this would place the shifter nearly the same distance away from the brake hoods as it would be if mounted on a Hubbub adapter to the bar-end.please tell me your not using straight bars
No, I'm not... ;)your a drop man true and true
Yes, I am. :D
Actually, I am still figuring out how best to do this, and have some ideas. <= A dangerous thing, Dan with Ideas. :o I am very open to suggestions, which is why the answers and approaches in this thread intrigue me so much. So much innovation, so many good ideas, and I am surely thankful for the responses regarding how much pressure/grip is required to make a shift. that will influence my approach to a degree.
All the best,
Dan.
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My shifter is on the bar end using hubub adapter, and I like it there, much better than the other options in my opinion, mainly because you can hold the shifter and steer easily at the same time, as your hand is out where you get good leverage on the bars, and also because if you are riding on the hoods you just let your hand naturally drop down a few inches and the shifter is right there. Inboard shifter positions such as on a t-bar or on the tops, seem less convenient to me and you have less steering control if your hand is in near the centreline of the bike while you change gear.
My experience exactly. That's why I had mine moved.
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Would be hard to better Fred's set up Dan ;)
so will you setting up the nomad exactle like the sherpa or are we in for a few surprises ;D
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Hi jags,
Since I don't have the bike in-hand yet, some of the details in my plan are still a bit hazy even to me, but -- yes -- the new Nomad will look very much like Sherpa, which was "just right" for me. Thorn have generously offered to try and duplicate Sherpa's build as much as possible, so that will help greatly.
The bike will be matte black again, of course. I personally think the yellow is gorgeous and admire it greatly, but I often wild-camp, and it is important the bike blend in for that, rather than stand out as the yellow would. The black is also easier to touch-up invisibly over time, and will draw far less attention in my town, where it will reduce theft. It will also be "present" in many product shots for catalogs and such, adding atmosphere and a context, without taking the focus off the featured product. Bright Tonka yellow -- because it is so pretty -- would distract people from the main item being offered for sale. It is also possible I will occasionally be contractually obligated to cover the logos, and this would be easier if it is black (use a strip of matte black automotive windshield trim-tape). It will still be recognizable as a Thorn. There is an annual "lifestyle magazine" syndicated newspaper supplement with a sporting section for "middle-agers" (they don't mean me, of course!) that wants some cycle-camping pics as well. Long lead-time; it will probably be published about 18 months from now.
There are a number of things that will be missing, simply because the Rohloff drivetrain makes them redundant --
- No derailleurs, of course.
- No need for a chain-slap guard.
- No need for the N-gear JumpStop overshift protector.
- No triple chainrings/crank.
- No Campagnolo bar-end shifter covers 'cos there won't be any bar-ends to cover.
- No Deore "Shadow" series low-profile derailleur.
I will need a different (shorter) pump, and I am not sure the compact frame with its smaller triangle (more sloping top tube and designed to accommodate a sus fork) will accommodate all three of my 1.5l bottles. If it won't then I'll likely go with an alternate high-capacity cage or three like the Salsa Anything Cage (http://salsacycles.com/components/anything_cage/ ...and... http://salsacycles.com/culture/new_product_-_salsa_anything_cages/ ) and use bottles that are shorter but more squat for the same capacity. Bottlers of water here in the 'States have all decided to make their own bespoke bottles, so standardization has gone out the window. It makes the store-shelf water displays look all higgledy-piggledy.
Otherwise, nearly everything will transfer over, making it as familiar and as functional as what I'm used to. Things like the bottle opener, the Tout Terrain The Plug 2, the lighting, the Kool-Stop brake pad inserts, interrupter ('cross-top) brake levers, etc.
I'm about to write Andy and ask his opinion on the new Berthoud shifter vs. the traditional shifter atop a T-bar like Fred's setup, which I find really appealing and would like to adapt in a slightly different way. Stay tuned; I think it will work well.
And, yes, I have a couple tricks up my sleeve.
So, there you have it...Preview of Coming Attractions!
Keep those drop 'bar Rohloff ideas coming! All suggestions welcomed!
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
For the person who will be going the Rohloff route but has never ridden one, a question for those more experienced:
How much force is required for a Rohloff shift? Does the shifter require a palm-and-fingers grip, or could it be accomplished on a T-bar by "spinning" the grip with only the finger-tips? I've sometimes heard the eaction compared to turning a doorknob, but I've found doorknobs vary a lot in the force required.
Dan.
Dan think of it as a well oiled, ball bearing, solidly mounted German doorknob with a nice positive detente action, assuming cables are good.As you leave one detente with a little effort it's then easy and drops into the next. Nice! (I've just had a check to make sure).
For physics!
Ian
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For physics!
For physics! Yay!
Thanks for that, Ian. From everyone'scollective comments, I am building a mental picture of how the shifting will be; thanks!
I had imagined it might be more like a SRAM GripShift, though I know in that case, the indexing is in the shifter and not in the mech, unlike the Rohloff. This sounds much, much better...a well oiled, ball bearing, solidly mounted German doorknob with a nice positive detente action, assuming cables are good
Ah....<contended sigh> Bliss! I can just about see it...feel it. Man! This is exciting!
Thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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Actually, the Rohloff shift is the component that most obviously runs in. I found the shift quality the most objectionable thing on my new Rohloff, very disappointing for so much money. (I fear I upset some posters by describing it as "agricultural".) Yet now I don't notice it. The psychologically depressing sighing sound in gears 7 and 8 has quietened to below the level of general everyday perception, but by comparison the change in the shift is a magnitude bigger over the same distance (about 5,500km).
My shift isn't precise at all. I don't mean missed gears. I mean it doesn't have the jewel like precision of a BMW gearbox. Nor, if you read the manual carefully, is it intended to click with precision. On the contrary, it is supposed to have 2mm play, almost a full gear movement, at the control surface, and not in total but each way. Mine has quite a bit more than that. Be careful: I'm not saying it misses gears or anything like that. I'm just saying that you have to grow with that control and, as it becomes less stiff, learn to apply less force. I notice that, now, people who come new to my Rohloff box find it so soft-changing that when they begin they always change several gears involuntarily and have to learn to be gentle with it.
Dan's remark elsewhere about two Rohloff boxes, the new and the run-in, apply very much to the control.
Andre Jute
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Dan's remark elsewhere about two Rohloff boxes, the new and the run-in, apply very much to the control.
Very helpful indeed, Andre, and very logical as well.
And perhaps for the best.
Back in the day, I ran my (friction, 'cos that's all there was) shifter controls very stiff, indeed. Shimano Dura-Ace, Campagnolo Nuovo Record, SunTour Superbe Pro...and then, I discovered SunTour's very soft yet accurate ratchet-clutch shifters, and my friction shifting went soft -- literally. It was no longer necessary to have the stiff, precise lever action I had previously equated with accuracy, 'cos the lever would now hold firm against derailleur spring tension thanks to the ratchet resisting the derailleur spring; the clutch was balanced to work with mech spring tension and actually aided upshifts 'cos I didn't have to overcome much lever friction.
I soon came to prefer the "softly-softly" shifting. It didn't seem or feel as precise...but it was; it got me the gear I needed and then held it. And all with less effort.
It sounds as if I might consider the well-worn Rohloff similarly. If -- at worst -- the shifter ends up imprecise in feel and wiggly -- but manages to find and hold-steady in gear (which it should, being it isn't spring-loaded, the indexing takes place in the hub, and it uses a push-pull single cable), well...that isn't so different philosophically from the idea of abandoning gear charts and such in favor of just twisting the knob one way or the other to get the gearing I need. It'll get me there, and directly, then stay there. If there is some wiggly-play centering on the numbers, well, so long as I can find them and it still works...all's still good functionally.
The "tactile aesthetics" may go off with age, but the functional result remains.
Thanks, Andre, for adding this data point wrt the shifter mechanism; most helpful to keep in mind.
Best,
Dan.
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I'm sure you know this and just misspoke, or I misunderstood you, Dan, but the Rohloff gear control is by two pull cables. There is no pushing against cables whatsoever. The principle is pull-pull.
I didn't mean to imply that the shift itself is mushy. You feel the gear click in, though you don't hear it. It's the control rather than the change that is very slightly loose in being able to turn further by at least two mm in a by-the-book Roholoff setup. And you don't actually turn it further, it's just irritating in the beginning when, as you imply, you still look at the numbers on the ring and you want to line them up precisely with the red dot. Paulson showed a photo the other day with the remnants of Tippex on the numeral 11 on the gear control; by that I knew his bike had done fewer miles than mine; I had Tippex on 11 and 7 but felt no need to replace it after it wore off. After a while you don't care about the number of the gear you're in, and don't look. If Herr Rohloff intended you to look, you may be certain he wouldn't have made the classic triangular control black on black.
Andre Jute
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I understand, Andre; yours is a superb explanation and description. The pieces of the puzzle are getting filled in for me, thanks to the efforts of yourself and others.
So much would be answered with a simple test ride or even test-feel, but alas, no Rohloffs are within access by me. Your collective descriptions are the next-best thing.
As for the cable action, you're absolutely correct, Andre, and that's what I was thinking. The "push-pull" in my statement was in the physics sense; as the control turns, one cable must be under slightly more tension, therefore the other has less, so "push" in relative terms (like pushing on a string). I was thinking aloud, but your term is the correct one.
Wonderful stuff, all, and very gratefully received by me.
All the best,
Dan.
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I as the control turns, one cable must be under slightly more tension, therefore the other has less,
I think that when the shifter is not active, neither cable has any tension, or only very slight. When one rotates the shifter, one cable picks up tension and the other cable has absolutely no tension at all. As the hub mechanism switches into a new gear, the tension in the pulling cable must suddenly decrease, but I don't think the movement is enough that the "pushing" cable actually picks up any tension.
Moving slowly from one gear to the next, there is quite a definite step, a rise and fall in torque on the shifter. But if one flips quickly across several gears, the mechanism seems to glide more freely across the intermediate steps.
I don't think I have seen any other Rohloff besides the one on my bike. They're not too common around these parts!
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I think that when the shifter is not active, neither cable has any tension, or only very slight. When one rotates the shifter, one cable picks up tension and the other cable has absolutely no tension at all. As the hub mechanism switches into a new gear, the tension in the pulling cable must suddenly decrease, but I don't think the movement is enough that the "pushing" cable actually picks up any tension.
Thanks, Jim! Your explanation -- along with Andre's -- helps me get a much better grasp. Years ago, when Brandon Ives worked for Bike Friday, I saw a Rohloff with a broken flange at their facility (the result of early problems adapting the hub to such a small rim and really acute lateral spoke angles). Haven't seen one since that I could look at closely, though I did follow an early one on the bike path about two months ago. It has the yellow-and-blue sticker on it. The rider turned off before I could ask about it.
Once mine arrives, all (or much more) will be illuminated. Currently working with Andy and Robin on the best spec and size for my needs. Their feedback and experience is very helpful in determining which direction to go.
All the best,
Dan.
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So much would be answered with a simple test ride or even test-feel, but alas, no Rohloffs are within access by me. Your collective descriptions are the next-best thing.
Dan, the Rohloff rotary shift is possibly closest approximated by the old,old, old rotary channel selectors on 1960-70s TVs - a smooth movement against slight resistance, then it neatly falls into place. The cable play does not matter too much, just be sure not to have it too tight as you'll lose the 'feel' for the gear.
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...possibly closest approximated by the old,old, old rotary channel selectors on 1960-70s TVs
Perfect! Boy, Pete, you brought back some childhood memories there! I know the feel exactly!
Thanks!
Very good suggestion wrt cable tension. I wonder of some of the few complaints I have heard might in some way be related to incorrect or too-tight cable tension.... From your description, I can see the importance of leaving a little play.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan
another way to get an idea of the feel is to turn the spindle of your Shmidt dyno hub by hand. You will feel the bumps just the same but with a bit more initial resistance. They do smooth out with speed as you go across several like Jim says.
The oldest telly I can remember had huge channel selector buttons that you pushed in about 20mm with a big clunk as the one for the last channel selected popped back out. There were only four and one of them was unused! Perhaps we should TV carbon date all the forum members?
Ian
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the Rohloff rotary shift is possibly closest approximated by the old,old, old rotary channel selectors on 1960-70s TVs - a smooth movement against slight resistance, then it neatly falls into place. The cable play does not matter too much, just be sure not to have it too tight as you'll lose the 'feel' for the gear.
This is a pretty close description. The only thing I'd add is that while the cable play does not matter much, you do have to learn to feel where the resistance starts and then carefully turn it or you may find yourself overshifting. Because of the long cables on my tandem I may have more slack than a single bike and I may be experiencing more stretch. The resistance increases as the pedal force increases and this is when I tend to overshift, since I apply more force to the shifter.
Another issue regarding Rohloff hubs - that is not related to drop bar Rohloff shifter location - is tire changing for those who have the shift box. When you disconnect the shift box from the hub, the shifter is free to turn. If you turn the shifter and then re-attach it to the hub you will find that you don't have 14 gears anymore and the ones you have do not correspond to the correct numbers on the shifter. To avoid this, I always rotate the shifter all the way to either gear 1 or 14 before removing the shft box and then make sure that the shifter is rotated all the way when I re-attach it. I also carry a wrench to shift the hub in case I get things mis-aligned.
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Perhaps we should TV carbon date all the forum members?
I'm torn between voting "Yes!" and screaming "Noooooooooooo!" on this one. :D I do remember when *I* was the Remote Control and it was hard to be a couch potato unless you really, really liked just one channel (our TV received *two* channels over-the-air; we didn't have cable and sat dishes hadn't been invented). "Mute" was putting your fingers in your ears, unless you -- again -- got up and did something about it. Color hadn't been invented, so the world was black-and-white. I have the photographs to prove it.
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Truly, I can't begin to tell you how much these Rohloff "feel" descriptions help. I'm sure once I get mine, all will be clear, but these are things I've always wondered about from afar, and I am sure it is the same for others in the same boat. About all I had to compare it to (and that only by visuals) was a Grip-Shift. I now see the Rohloff shifter is an entirely different animal in feel as well as function.
Any comparisons between the Rohloff models (old, triangular grip with dark numbers vs. new, round, and white-numbered) and the Berthoud alternative?
swc7916, I can surely relate to your comments about the tandem's long cables (I own a derailleur tandem). The very length does alter feel to a degree, as does whatever friction is added by the lengthy cable runs. Excellent tips wrt indexing the shifter before tire changes and carrying an 8mm wrench; thanks!
Oh! Directly on-topic! I live on a feeder street to the local riverfront, off-street bike paths, so I see lots of bikes go by. I was putting a letter in the post box across the street a few moments ago when a tandem steamed by, ridden solely by the captain. It was a Rohloff bike, and the shifter was mounted somehow to the side of the top tube, just behind the headset. He was past-and-gone before I could give a shout, but he may ride by again. I suspected it might be a locally-built Co-Motion, but I didn't see the usual logos.
Best,
Dan.
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About all I had to compare it to (and that only by visuals) was a Grip-Shift. I now see the Rohloff shifter is an entirely different animal in feel as well as function.
Any comparisons between the Rohloff models (old, triangular grip with dark numbers vs. new, round, and white-numbered) and the Berthoud alternative?
The thing to realise when talking about shifters is that the Rohloff shifter is really just a rotating dial operating two cables. In contrast to every other shifter its function and sensitivity is determined mainly by the gear hub itself (where the indexing occurs) together with the smoothness and tension of the cables. So when comparing a Rohloff triangular shifter and a Berthoud there should really be no difference apart from the feel of rubber grip compared to alloy.
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the Rohloff shifter is really just a rotating dial operating two cables... [so] there should really be no difference apart from the feel of rubber grip compared to alloy.
<nods> Yes, Pete, I see. This thing gains in beauty the more I learn of it.
Still, I find myself wondering if there are differences in the grip construction that might result in a different tactile "feel" when switching from one to another. For example, if anyone had an earlier triangular-grip Rohloff shifter...did the subsequent round version feel any different? In other words, did Rohloff take the opportunity to improve the internals to reduce friction, or something? Or were the changes mostly cosmetic, like the change in shape and added white indicator numbers? And does the alu Berthoud shifter have any added mass that might alter the feel?
I guess what is in the back of my mind is how the shape and -- more importantly -- the mass, of a gear-shift knob can change the feel of a car's manual transmission when shifting. Assuming the same linkage, it is possible to go far in tuning the "user interface" by going from, say, an OEM molded plastic knob to one of machined aluminum. For those who have gone from one sort of Rohloff shifter to another, did you notice any difference?
I.can't.wait. to get my hands on one of these things and take some measurements.
Thanks!
Best,
Dan. (who is getting...Ideas...!)
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I find myself wondering if there are differences in the grip construction that might result in a different tactile "feel" when switching from one to another.
I only have experience with the shifter on my bicycle - which I believe is the "triangular" shifter - but other than differences in the diameter of the shifter or texture/material of the gripping surface, I can't imagine there'd be any differences. Mine rotates pretty freely when the shift box is disconnected. As far as feel is concerned, it must be understood that the shift occurs remotely; that is, the indexing is in the hub, not the shifter. With an indexing derailluer system, the shift cable is under spring tension and you're either pulling against the tension or releasing the tension to shift and the feel is different between upshifting and downshifting (at least, that's been my experience.) When shifting one way, you can feel that you are pulling the derailleur whereas in the other direction you can feel the spring tension snapping the derailleur in to the next position. With the Rohloff there is no spring tension to overcome or release and because of this the shift cable is always slack, albeit only a little. When there is no pedalling going on, the shifting is the same up or down. When pedalling, the downshifts seem to be harder but I think that's due to the fact that you're shifting down because of increasing load.
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I just saw this...CoMotion's new drop-bar Rohloff shifter:
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Ah, now that is even better :).
'Top of the drops' shifter, but with a completely enclosed cable drum (in contrast to Gilles Berthoud's open cabling), so preventing the problems of water/grit building in your housing to cause corrosion or jamming. Used with the EX box this would keep your cable run completely sealed from such problems.
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Still, I find myself wondering if there are differences in the grip construction that might result in a different tactile "feel" when switching from one to another. For example, if anyone had an earlier triangular-grip Rohloff shifter...did the subsequent round version feel any different? In other words, did Rohloff take the opportunity to improve the internals to reduce friction, or something?
The internals of the shifter, new or old, is simply a cable drum. There is no real mechanism to it and either drum is free running.
Rohloff changed the new shifter to make the cable insertion process simpler. They also made the gear numbers white to stand out and printed off the grip area, rather than raised on the grip rubber (which eventually will wear off). The numbers are rather superficial, as you will soon find out after riding with the Rohloff for a year or so. You simply shift one way for higher gear and the other for lower. I managed to goof up my GLW's cables and have them reversed. For her the top gear is 1 and 14 is lowest - no great grief, I will fix it when I next have to replace the cables (20,000kms or so). The actual gear is really of little consequence as you are not double shifting onto different gear ranges - the hub does all that for you.
The new grip is round and for many people feels more comfy to grip while riding. OTOH, the triangular grip is easier to flip between gears, I find. My wife was having trouble doing shifts wearing her nice winter wool gloves - they slipped on the shifter. The triangular shifter would give her a face to push on. Her wool gloves have had to be banished from winter riding use.
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I just saw this...CoMotion's new drop-bar Rohloff shifter
Oh! Nicely found, swc!
This being early Friday evening here in the PNW (Pacific Northwest), I'll try and drop by Co-Motion on Monday and see if I can find out more from Dwan or Dan and see what they have to say. They're located just 6mi/9.6km from my front door. Bike Friday is about the same distance the other direction, and they've been doing Rohloff'y stuff as well.
Best,
Dan.
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Ask those co-motion fellows if they ever visited their cousin Robbie in Cuyahoga Falls back in like third grade. Robbie was my neighbor in those days. I think maybe we all went out bike riding together then. Small world, eh?!
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Will do, Jim! Would Cousin Robbie be related to the Shepards or the Vrijmoets?
If I can manage it Monday, it will be with camera in-hand, you can count on that!
Best,
Dan. (who agrees...the world really is getting smaller all the time!)
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Robbie's Mom's maiden name was Shepard. I was back in the Akron area last year and got to hang out and talk with Robbie for a couple hours. We talked about bikes among many things - hadn't seen him in forty years! - and he mentioned his cousins and Co-Motion.
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Got it! Thanks Jim! Dwan isn't always available, and it has been a couple years since we last spoke, but I will run this by him. I'm sure he'll be tickled. He's a really nice fellow and very pleasant to talk with.
All the best,
Dan. (who is really looking forward to this...)
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Hi All!
I have an appointment for 15:00 this afternoon at Co-Motion Cycles here in Eugene to talk about their new Rohloff shifter and take some photos of it. It will be available eparately from their bikes after 15 August. I'll do my best to find out all details. Friendly and nice folks as always, I'm really looking forward to it.
Any specific questions you'd like asked? Now's the time to let me know...I'm 8 hours behind the UK; as I write this, there's about 4 hours to get questions in before my appointment.
All the best,
Dan. (always playing catch-up!)
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One thing to dig around is: what sorts of handlebars will the shifter fit on? What range of diameters will the clamp fit... though probably bars that are too small can always be shimmed. Probably the bigger issue is getting the shifter into the right place. There is probably some minimum radius curve that the shifter can be coaxed around. Maybe there are some bars that they know work ok and some other bars that they haven't been able to get the shifter to fit onto.
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Excellent suggestions, Jim. I was wondering if the shifter would also fit oversize handlebars as well, and if it was limited to the straight portion of the 'bars. It appears to snuggle right up next to the stem. Intriguing!
Thanks! More, anyone?
Best,
Dan.
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Dan, our man on the ground,
does the brake cable run through it with the bars?
can it be rotated on the bars to adjust cable exit angle?
is it greased or made of low friction materials?
is it designed to limit water ingress to cables?
Curious
Ian
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Terrific, Ian! I've got about 90 minutes till I go. Any more, anyone?
Best,
Dan.
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Bonus question,
is grip made of low heat conductivity material?
Bonus supplementary:
outside grip diameter?
Thanks
Ian
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Brilliant, Ian. I'm printing these out to take and check off. Any more?
Just returned from more training for touring. Not lawn-rolling this time, but carrying a wrought-iron queen-size bedframe home on my shoulders. Wasn't bad, only 80lb/36kg and only a mile/1.6km...
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
I'm back from a pleasant half-hour at Co-Motion Cycles, where I learned more about their new drop-bar Rohloff shifter and had a chance to try it in person. I spoke primarily with representative Brian Cannon, and briefly with co-owner/co-founder Dan Vrijmoet who graciously joined in near the conclusion of my stay.
This first report will be based on my own impressions of the shifter, because Brian wanted to get accurate answers to all your collected questions; he will email them to me in the next few days and I can repeat them here. I took some photos and a brief video, which I will post on YouTube (link to follow).
The two examples I saw were on Interbike show machines, so not ridable at this time. The shifter I examined most closely was on the same bike pictured on the Co-Motion Facebook page ( https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.210143952871.130865.198415267871&type=3 ). It is wise to remember these were essentially prototypes or pre-production samples; they will be available after August 15 for about USD$249 each, subject to finalization of details and pricing.
As with all Co-Motion products, this is a beautifully engineered and produced product. It is made entirely in-house, and sports an o-ring for sealing at the side; it is also user-serviceable. I brought along my cheap little non-marring vernier caliper to get a rough measurement; the shifter is approximately 55mm "square" along the gross dimensions (diameter x width), and the cables exit nicely from the front using the original Rohloff end ferrules.
There is a large pass-through that easily accommodated the one brake cable I saw, with what looked like ample room for a second housing to pass beneath. The two most interesting things to me:
1) It was designed from the start to work with oversize, 31.8mm handlebars, and was mounted on same. I asked if it could be shimmed to work with 25.4/26mm handlebars, and Brian thought it might be possible, though it is really engineered and set up to work directly with oversize.
2) The shifter snuggled right up against the stem. Brian pointed out the FSA stem used on the bike was ideal in that it left ample clearance for the unit. I would say there was about 5mm of space (about the same as a cable housing) between the shifter and the stem.
I was particularly pleased with the forward, neat routing of the cable housings. Very clean, and would not easily foul a handlebar bag or hinder handlebar movement. One would have to move the shifter considerably to the right if using an Ortlieb HB bag mount on the 'bars. Otherwise, no problem at all if the HB mount went on a steerer-mounted T-bar. I do think it might well be compatible with interrupter ('cross-top) brake levers.
On seeing and feeling the shifter, I formed more impressions...
a) The feel in hand is very nice, and the large barrel had the effect of multiplying hand force. It had a very smooth, nicely-oiled feeling. There wasn't much friction in the unit (except for the sealing); rather the impression was of some viscosity. I did like it. There are flats machined around the perimeter, and it was easy to grip and move the shifter. I do think for my use in extreme cold and heat as well as wet, I would construct a removable, non-slip sleeve for the shifter. I think it could become very hot/cold/slippery depending on conditions.
b) I asked if there might be plans for a silicone or synthetic rubber cover. Co-Motion is primarily a manufacturer of complete bikes and doesn't really want to focus unduly on components. While they will be listening to user feedback as always, there are no plans at present to produce a cover or sleeve.
c) The indicator numbers are very clearly engraved in the barrel of the grip, but are black-on-black, small, and a bit tough to see for members of the Bifocal Generation. Brian said there had been some discussion about laser engraving, but at this point no decision has been made to pursue that. If it were me, I would simply wipe some white acrylic paint into the recesses, then wipe it clean before it dried, leaving the paint to clearly pick out the numbers against the black anodizing. A five-minute job that would last the life of the product. I have done similarly on items I've engraved and -- provided one gets a full fill of paint -- it lasts for decades while staying nice and clean.
The Co-Motion Rohloff shifter is nicely hard-anodized in black (other colors are not planned) to prevent corrosion and so it will match nicely with other, related components (handlebars, stems, hubs, etc). Because the unit was all-black and the light was dim, I couldn't really see how it was shimmed or attached to the 'bars.
I'll post my photos and the video in the next couple hours, so check back for updates. I should receive specific answers from Brian by email sometime in the next few days.
I wish I had some firsthand experience with the Gilles Berthoud shifter for comparison. Really, there are only so many ways to go with these things, so any similarities are to be expected. Based on what I saw today and on photos of the GB shifter, I would say it lays out like this:
= Gilles Berthoud shifter for use with standard-diameter handlebars and Thorn's bespoke handlebar with narrow center bulge. +1 for indicator clarity and size. Appears to have a smaller grip closer to original Rohloff shifter, nice for those with smaller hands.
= Co-Motion shifter for oversize-diameter handlebars of any sort and close stem approach. +1 for a nice, black-anodized finish. Large grip nice for larger hands, perhaps providing a bit more leverage to turn.
Nice to see another alternative for those wishing to use drop handlebars with their Rohloff hubs.
All the best,
Dan. (pics and vids to follow)
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Pics, showing the Co-Motion shifter in natural lighting. My hand in the frame for scale...
Best,
Dan.
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I aggressively tone-mapped and pushed the gamma settings hard on these to bring out the details. The color is not representative of reality, which is a rich and dark architectural black anodizing.
Best,
Dan.
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Good work Dan!
$250 is currently £164 on a UK credit card commission basis. Cough!
Top of the class at industrial espionage school.
Thanks
Ian
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Hi All!
My brief YouTube video of the Co-Motion Rohloff drop-'bar shifter in action here:
http://youtu.be/tgKu1TRfZgg
Best,
Dan.
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Ah, that video is really nice, gives a great feel for what the device is like. A beautiful bit of machinery!
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Hi All!
I got busy with Flickriver today and looked to see if I could find photos of additional ways to use a Rohloff shifter with drop handlebars. I did find a few, mostly variations on what we've seen, but some executed differently. I'll post them as links below, since many of the methods have multiple views...
On a Minoura SpaceGrip ahead of the handlebar, next to the brake hood:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertscycles/4529695580/sizes/o/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertscycles/4529694462/sizes/o/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertscycles/4780746429/sizes/o/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertscycles/4780745795/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Same, but elevated: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertscycles/4780746887/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Our own Stuart (stutho) has used this approach for some six years with considerable success:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=644.msg4662#msg4662
Very nice views of the Gilles Berthoud shifter, installed:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andychurch/7302139292/sizes/o/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andychurch/7301803640/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Rohloff on a cut-down bar-end, mounted at an angle on a 22.2mm quill stem shaft:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antbikemike/2126007004/sizes/o/in/photostream/
Best,
Dan.
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A beautiful bit of machinery!
Thanks, Jim; it really felt nice to hold, and had the same feel to me as a quality gun. I don't shoot or own a gun, but the several collectors' and marksman's editions I have been privileged to hold felt much the same in-hand.
I would have some concerns for my particular application (desert touring in shoulder-season and high-summer temperature extremes, sustained rain or snow getting there through the mountains), but that might not be relevant for others' use.
I'm guessing part of the success of this shifter lies in designing it from the start for oversized handlebars. On the handlebars I saw, the part near the stem was largest, then necked down as expected away from the stem. Would make it easier to fit the shifter around the curves, I'd think. Looking forward to Brian's answers to our questions.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
Interestingly the Co-Motion changer looks to have the gear numbers the opposite way round to the Rohloff and Giles Berthoud.
Definitely a different choice for drop bars!
Julian.
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Hi All!
I just received a reply from Brian with answers to our questions. Verbatim:
Hi Daniel,
It was great to meet with you here at Co-Motion Cycles. Thank you for taking the time to visit and review our new shifter. Below are some answers to the list of questions you left with us.
1. The new Co-Motion 14-speed shifter for the Rohloff Speedhub is designed to work with any handlebar that has a bulging 31.8mm clamp diameter, primarily a road bike style drop-bar or mountain type straight handlebar. It is intended to clamp directly onto the oversize 31.8mm portion of the handlebar.
2. The shifter mounting clamp could feasibly fit smaller diameter handlebars with a shim.
3. Our new shifter will slide over any standard, ergo and even compact drop-bar, except (see #4).
4. It will not fit over the aero style drop-bars that feature a flat top, like the Profile Design Wing bars, FSA Pro Wing handlebars, etc.
5. The 'oversize' bars on the market today are the perfect application for this new shifter, as the clamp needs the 31.8mm bar diameter to clamp to. It is designed to clamp within 1/4 to 1/2-inch of the stem. This provides the most usable amount of the handlebar.
6. Yes, the brake cable runs through the shifter and clamp for the smoothest and cleanest cable routing.
7. Yes, the shifter can be rotated to adjust the exit angle of the cables. We imagined a 45-degree exit angle down and away from the bars, while still keeping the gearing indicator visible.
8. The shifter does have grease between the two moving parts. Also, it is hard anodized for low friction, smooth rotation and good looks.
9. There are two o-rings sealing the outer and inner pieces of the shifter, creating a barrier from water and other elements.
10. The shifter is machined from a single piece of 6061 series aluminum stock.
11. The outside grip diameter is 54mm, the smallest we could accommodate with this design and incorporated features.
Please let us know if you have any follow up questions. We are happy to help!
Best regards,
Brian Cannon
[Co-Motion] Sales and Customer Service
So, there you have it; all questions answered (thanks)!
Best,
Dan.
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Nobody expects the Dannish inquisition!
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Before you decide which shifter mounting you want, you really should ride the bike and see if you like it. If you can't ride it, at least sit on it and pretend to ride and shift. Just because it looks convenient doesn't mean you'll like it in practice. Imagine sitting on the bike and shifting. What position would your hand, wrist, forearm and elbow be? Mine was originally mounted at the stem and I didn't like it; Moving my hand up and to the inside made me sit up a little and just felt unstable. Turning my wrist in that position was not natural. I shift a lot and much prefer having the shifter on the barend. In this position, the shifter is at the same width as my grip and the wrist action is natural. With it mounted at the stem the shifts were much more deliberate; now I just drop my hand to the shifter and shift without looking. If you liked the old stem shifters then you might like your Rohloff shifter mounted high and inside. I never liked stem shifters.
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Before you decide which shifter mounting you want, you really should ride the bike and see if you like it.
This is really superb advice, SWC, and worthwhile keeping in mind no matter what kind of shifter one is considering.
I so very much wished I could have tried the Co-Motion shifter yesterday, but the two bikes that carried the shifter were in show-trim and not available for use. As for my Nomad, I don't have firsthand experience with a Rohloff shifter, so had to make the best decision I could from afar, reading of others' experiences. What I ended up doing (original Rohloff shifter on a short T-bar) was the most conservative and yet most versatile. I can change the handlebars without disturbing the shifting and -- to a lesser extent -- I can change the shifter's location pretty easily as well.
For some reason, I've never really taken to bar-end shifters as I did to downtube, though I use modified and repurposed thumbies on the tops of my tandem's drop 'bars and -- much to my surprise -- they have worked out very well for me (but only on that bike; the Arai drag brake is operated by an old SunTour bar-end shifter which has proven ideal for me in that use).
Still good advice to "try before you buy" and that holds for pretty much everything!
Best,
Dan.
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...the Co-Motion changer looks to have the gear numbers the opposite way round...
Good call, Julian; I thought something looked a little different at the time, but it didn't hit me till I saw the pics afterward. I wonder if the cables cross internally somehow so the action is effectively reversed? Of, if they go opposite the usual direction from their anchor points to wind the other way 'round the drum?
Brian mentioned the orientation can be adjusted...Yes, the shifter can be rotated to adjust the exit angle of the cables. We imagined a 45-degree exit angle down and away from the bars, while still keeping the gearing indicator visible.
From what he showed me, they had previously used a Hubbub mounting at the end of the drops as SWC prefers (and shown on that lovely tandem of his). There was one on a sample bike in the showroom. For the life of me, I don't recall if it was a standard Rohloff or a Co-Motion shifter; I think it might have been the latter.
SWC also raised an interesting point about angle of hand approach. I have yet to receive my T-bar mounted shifter, but I see there is some popuarity to mounting the Rohloff shifter at an angle to the steerer, rather than inline with and parallel to the frame. I'm thinking that might make a more confortable approach for some people. I figure I can rotate mine a bit to try if it seems a little hard to reach. I'm guessing if it is on a T-bar...I can perhaps reach over the exposed end of the knob and shift it that way, rather than turning the knob inline. Fred? You out there? How do you go about shifting your T-bar mounted Rohloff? From the end, or by gripping it inline?
Any preferences among drop-'bar users for the old triangular shape over the new roundish Rohloff, or do you prefer the new to the old?
Best,
Dan.
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For some reason, I've never really taken to bar-end shifters as I did to downtube
I agree with you regarding bar-end vs. downtube shifters, but the Rohloff shifter rotates which makes it more natural (for me) than a lever in that position.
Good call, Julian; I thought something looked a little different at the time, but it didn't hit me till I saw the pics afterward. I wonder if the cables cross internally somehow so the action is effectively reversed?
The direction of the shifting is determined by which cable is pulling at the hub. With a shift box, the direction that you wind the cable around the pulley determines whether a clockwise turn of the shifter is an upshift or a downshift. (The fellow who built my bike says that he gets this backwards all the time and has to take it apart and redo it.)
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The direction of the shifting is determined by which cable is pulling at the hub...
Oh! I see; makes perfect sense, now. Thanks, SWC; very helpful.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All,
Today, I received futher amplification from Brian at Co-Motion about their Rohloff shifter. Here is what he said...The shifter used in conjunction with the Hubbub bar-end adapter, as seen in our showroom, is the stock Rohloff shifter. This will continue to be our standard shifter set-up, on the bar-end unless customers upgrade to our Co-Motion shifter for different placement.
The gear numbers engraved on the shifter are in fact incorrect. This was our first article we received back from anodizing and we quickly realized the mistake. The first batch for sale will have the correct numbering orientation, same as Rohloff and Giles Berthoud shifters. For our show bikes we changed the cable routing inside the gear box, so the numbers are in-line with the hub. I suppose if you weren't accustomed to the stock Rohloff shifter already, you would not know the difference. However, we would like to be consistent with the other options on the market.
Very helpful.
Best,
Dan.
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Not quite in the "shifters for drop handlebars" realm, but close...
I just heard from a friend in Central Asia who is in the industry. He has heard of two efforts to construct alternative shifters for the Rohloff Speedhub. He thought one was some kind of twin-trigger RapidFire-like design, but depended on a long, slack spring somewhere in the cable inline with the seat- or chainstay, under development in Taiwan. The other was an effort from Guangzhou (Guangdong), China. He only knew it was round, but no details beyond that.
I'll followup on both unsubstantiated rumors and I have a further inquiry in to Mittelmeyer, asking if they are still on-track for a September introduction of their units.
Details as I get them.
Best,
Dan.
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Mittelmeyer have a webpage showing their grip as for delivery in September, even got some pretty CAD drawings
http://www.mittelmeyer.de/Fahrradteile/DSG-Rohloff/dsg-rohloff.htm
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Hi All!
The attached photos show my solution for using a Rohloff shifter with drop handlebars on my Nomad Mk2. I initially had the shifter mounted to a 55mm T-bar below the 'bars, just above the 105mm T-bar for the handlebar bag, itself located just above the stem. The placement was much like Fred's, which I greatly admired.
Thanks to some brilliant thinking by my friend Andre Jute, after some deep thought and a lot of experimentation, I placed the shifter atop my stem on a 105mm T-bar, also used to mount my GPS and GoPro video camera. This was possible because I specified my steerer be left uncut. A possible similar solution for those with cut stems is the 45-degree Thorn 172.5 extension, here:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-1725-mm-extension-45-deg-no-shim-prod28574/
Depending on stem reach and placement, it might put the shifter just ahead of the handlebars and possibly somewhat above. Much will depend on a number of variables.
This unusual placement atop the stem is proving ideal for my needs, and I am so happy with it. I can easily reach it from any location on the handlebars, and my fingers clear the handlebar nicely. Thorn T-bars are remarkably light (the 105mm weighs only 120g) and very sturdy.
A longer discourse on the path to this shifter location appears here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg22081#msg22081
All the best,
Dan.
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My first reaction was to say how much I hate your shifter solution but after considering the tall stem, the brake levers pointing up at a 45-degree angle and the drops pointing at the ground, I realized that your riding position is much more upright than mine. Maybe that's why mounting the shifter high and inside doesn't work for me - it forces me to sit up a little in order to get my hand at the right angle to shift. Someone riding in an upright position would prefer it mounted up high and would not like it on the bar end where they would have to reach down and out to shift. Even though you can easily reach it, the photos of your hand on the shifter indicate that the position of the shifter requires an awkward wrist action to rotate - you really can't shift with your fingertips. (In other words: I still hate it, but then it's not my bike.)
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Hi All
This is the best I find with Drop Bar's!
After trying lot's of mounting's and trying to make a new shifter etc, I made a mounting to mount on the side of my stem!
(I am now running Jeff Jones Loop H-Bar's)
Pete....
;)
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I made a mounting to mount on the side of my stem!
And very well, I might add! A stunning job of placement and execution, Pete. I can't see for sure with the shifter mounted, but it appears you might have used sheet-metal bent 90° and the perhaps brazed or TiG'd a 22.2mm stub onto that?
I'd love to hear all the details, as well as some more about your stem-cap. Was it designed to hold your GPS?
Very nice.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi All
This is the best I find with Drop Bar's!
After trying lot's of mounting's and trying to make a new shifter etc, I made a mounting to mount on the side of my stem!
This is precisely how my tandem was originally set up: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4049.msg20378#msg20378 (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4049.msg20378#msg20378)
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Thought I would share a couple of different takes on the drop bar conundrum I have been toying with.
Stub tube mounted to bars.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noddingdonkey/7839114522/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noddingdonkey/7839095424/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noddingdonkey/7839080612/
Stub tube mounted to stem
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noddingdonkey/7718274852/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noddingdonkey/7718712220/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/noddingdonkey/7893568578/
Think the Gilles Berthoud is the way to go if money no object.
Chris...
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Interesting mount - Not seen this before, thanks for posting. Nice neat finish there.
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Hi Chris, and welcome to the Forum!
Steve is absolutely right -- that's some stunning metal work, and it just looks fantastic as does the whole bike; you can really be proud of what you've done. I'm so impressed with the nice, clean job you did on the cable routing,too. It looks "factory original". That RST and the Romahome Demountable are artworks as well. Wish you were my neighbor IRL.
Is there a chance we might see a photo of you reaching to shift the Rohloff? I'm mightily intrigued by how it works in practice, and give you full marks for one of the more innovative approaches. Thanks for sharing!
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
Just to show the variations are many, here's another version of the Rohloff-as-bar-end-shifter.
The interesting twist is it is "backwards", with the shifter forward of the cables. It meets the owner's needs and allows actuation with the smaller fingers on his right hand, and uses the older triangular Rohloff grip. Original photo link here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gearbob/5464332084/sizes/l/in/photostream/
Closely cropped version of the photo attached below.
Best,
Dan.
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We have a setup on our Hase Pino tandem were the Rohloff grip is operated by the palm+small finger of the hand. It works but becomes difficult to use in hot conditions when the hand is wet due to sweating.
(http://sevenleagueboots.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/pino-cockpit-decathlong-bag-3.jpg)
(this picture isn't from our Pino, but ours is similar).
Also the cables at the end of the drop bar aren't nice at all.
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here's another version of the Rohloff-as-bar-end-shifter.
Blimey. I'm astonished by how wrong that looks. I'm thinking of a hubbub adaptor for a drop bar experiment on my bike. I now know which way round it has to go.
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Blimey. I'm astonished by how wrong that looks. I'm thinking of a hubbub adaptor for a drop bar experiment on my bike. I now know which way round it has to go.
On my testbed bike (sorting out handlebar and shifter options before I buy a Thorn/Rohloff) I now have a Shimano twistgrip for my Nexus 8 premium hub on a cheap imitation of the Hubbub - a piece of small diameter aluminium tubing salvaged from an old camping chair, one end glued inside the end of the drop bars with Araldite and with a short section of MTB handlebar glued over the other end. I reckon a piece of wood dowel might also do the trick.
So far, I quite like the shifting action, but haven't yet had the time to do any longish rides with the setup.
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Hi All!
The "Tuner Parts" portion of Rohloff's own website now lists a number of solutions for using drop handlebars with Rohloff shifters.
Root link in native German:
http://www.rohloff.de/de/technik/tuning_parts/index.html
Google-translated to English (the optional Rohloff translation service didn't work for me):
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Among the solutions offered:
= Utopia's Velo split handlebar (Humpert Utopia Ergotec Vario, 25.4mm x 50cm wide)
(http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/info/bikesuche/hersteller/Utopia_Velo_GmbH/utopia_randonneur_s.png)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/6332/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website (German): http://www.utopia-velo.de/relaunch/index.a4d
= Norwid's stem with integral Rohloff mount
(http://www.rohloff.de/typo3temp/pics/45c3cbc81b.jpg)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/3179/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website (German): http://www.norwid.de/
= Nöll Fahrradbau's split drop handlebar
(http://www.rohloff.de/typo3temp/pics/4679425f26.jpg)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/3210/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website (German): http://www.noell-fahrradbau.de/
= Mittelmeyer's Roadbar shifter (as discussed earlier in this thread)
(http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/info/bikesuche/hersteller/Tunningparts/Mittelmeyer_Roadbar_shifter.JPG)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/5581/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website (German): http://www.mittelmeyer.de/
= Gilles Berthoud's twist shifter (also as discussed earlier in this thread)
(http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/info/bikesuche/hersteller/gilles_berthoud/gb_twister2011.jpg)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/6468/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website (French): http://www.gillesberthoud.fr/
= Edsan ShiftEzy button-actuated stepper-motor shifting (previously discussed on this Forum)
(http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/info/bikesuche/hersteller/Edson_automatic/ShiftEzyPic1.gif)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/5710/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website: http://www.edsanautomation.com.au/
= Co-Motion Rohloff Drop-bar Shifter (discussed at length earlier in this thread)
(http://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/info/bikesuche/hersteller/Tunningparts/Co-Motion_Drop_bar_Rohloff_shifter_mount_2.business_card.jpg)
German: http://www.rohloff.de/de/service/bikesuche/detailansicht_der_bikesuche/bikeid/6883/index.html
English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rohloff.de%2Fen%2Ftechnology%2Ftuning_parts%2Findex.html&act=url
Company website (English): http://www.co-motion.com/
Best,
Dan.
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Retroshift makes brakes for drop bars that mount a lever shifter just in front of the brake lever. You can't shift from the drops, but they do have other advantages. It should not be too hard to mount a standard Rohloff shifter in place of the lever shift.
I don't think you could shift without moving your hand, but this seems like the minimum movement possible.
http://retroshift.com/store/products/cx1/cx1-green-plus/ (http://retroshift.com/store/products/cx1/cx1-green-plus/)
The ultimate for minimum maintenance should be a Rohloff hub and a belt drive. We ride a Santana tandem, but the ultimate tandem solution should be similar to the single solution, but with two belts.
Peter Raymond
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If it did fit, it might come to hand quite nicely. It might look a bit crazy sticking out the front like that... The shifter (especially the old one) is a chunky piece of kit.
I've just had my first experience of using the hubbub adaptor on drop bars. It works well, but it's going to take a bit of getting used to. I hadn't fully appreciated the convenience of the shifter right where you want it to be. I'm also having to think about which way to turn the thing, but I'm sure I'll get over that hurdle fairly quickly.
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Well, this Forum is a good read -- style, substance, courtesy, practical suggestions, what more could a first-time reader ask for? The early reference to Alex' excellent tour of the horizon was really helpful, and the extended discussion has only added to that. So, thanks, guys.
I logged onto the Thorn Forum because I'm seriously considering buying a Rohloff-equipped touring bike in the next 12 months or so, most probably from SJS. This is because I'm fed up with the fiddly-verging-on-seriously-irritating (thankfully, not catastrophic) derailleur problems I've encountered on some longish rides, one from Ottawa to Halifax, another from Amsterdam to Vienna this past Sept/Oct. I'm an admirer of German engineering--one of my two-wheelers is a mid-80's BMW airhead--and fortunately, I can manage the price of the Rohloff. My general approach to these questions has been, "Buy quality or repent at leisure."
BUT, until now my reservation about the Rohloff has been the issue of mating the Rohloff shifter to drop bars. I've finally found very comfortable bars for my touring bike -- a set of Velo Orange Grand Cru randonneur bars--and have been wrestling with the problem of using them with a Rohloff shifter. The folks at my local shop suggested Alex' preferred option in his review -- the 55 mm Thorn accessory bar. Then, I learn that Co-Motion offers a shifter mounted to the bars themselves, à la GB. Happy coincidence!--I expect to be in Oregon this July so will visit them for a discussion: all else equal, will it fit with the mounts for my Arkel handlebar bag?
So, at the very least there seem to be several routes through the thicket. Will post my experience in sorting all this through in the next year-plus.
Thanks for your help.
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yeah, I'd be loathe to give up handlebars that have proven comfortable on long tours!
Welcome... looking forward to your reports!
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Hi John!
You're surely welcome for any help received and welcomed aboard as a new member; looking forward to hearing more from you!
I found myself in much the same dilemma as you, and started this topic for many of the same reasons. There's no one right way to use a Rohloff with drop handlebars, but hopefully this catalog of ideas will contain something of use for you and others who follow. I feel sure we have not exhausted all the possibilities, so there's a good chance something new will appear from time to time.
I've been very pleased keeping the OEM Rohloff shifter separate from the handlebars, and its usefulness and convenience exceeded expectations. I can roll it like I would if mounted on handlebars, or I can turn it from the end like a doorknob, using just my fingertips if I wish. I recently changed handlebars, and it was so nice to leave the shifting end of things intact. Putting the shifter above the 'bars on a T-bar meets my needs despite being ehm, "unconventional" in appearance and it gives a perfect mount for my GPS, inclinometer, and GoPro camera clamp while leaving the handlebars free and unencumbered. If you'd like to follow the development of my idea, it is detailed here in words and photos: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.0 The most recent photo before padding and taping the new compact-drop 'bars is here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4523.0;attach=3251
**Please note, I placed the shifter on a Thorn 105mm Accessory T-bar, and ended up using the 55mm Accessory T-bar to mount my Ortlieb handlabar bag as close as possible to the steerer. With my stem, this put the Rohloff shifter above and just ahead of the handlebar-tops. By happy coincidence, this left plenty of room for me to ride atop my drop handlebars and use interrupter/cross-top levers without my fingers hitting the back of the handlebar bag; there's plenty of clearance and then some. Depending on your bag and handlebar stem reach, you might well need to mount the Rohloff shifter on a shorter or longer T-bar for everything (including fingers!) to clear.
The 45°, 172.5mm Thorn Accessory T-bar is another possibility for mounting a Rohloff shifter.
Second choice for me would be a 50mm T-bar below the 'bars and above the headset, as Freddered has done.
There's lots of very good approaches out there, including the Gilles Berthoud and Co-Motion shifters, each having excellent build quality. Though well-executed, they do take up a bit of space on the far-inside of the 'bar, and are third-party solutions. I decided to go with OEM Rohloff as much as possible to ensure easy parts availability and replacement in future; Rohloff are very good to make all their advancements to date backwards-compatible and this was another reason why I went the T-bar route.
all else equal, will it fit with the mounts for my Arkel handlebar bag?
John, the T-bar is 22.2mm in diameter, so the Arkel handlebar bag moun(s) should work fine so long as it is installed with the shims included with the Arkel mounts ( http://www.adventurecycling.org/store/index.cfm/product/327/arkel-handlebar-mounts.cfm ).
Any questions, give a shout; we're all glad to help.
Best, and welcome,
Dan. (..."suits me to a T(bar)" :D)
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Thanks, Dan -- all that is really helpful, and thanks too for your kind words. "The devil is the details"? ... nah, on the evidence of this forum, in the details are to be found delight, mystery, and just a wee bit of obsessiveness.
My attachment to my Velo Orange rando bars has to do with headwinds. I've had a few times where I've spent maybe 2/3 of a day's ride on the drops -- simply can't imagine battling winds on the Gaspé, for example, with straight bars. I guess if one's riding only eastwards, say, Vancouver to Thunder Bay, then straight bars are not a problem; but where I live in the windy Ottawa Valley, at some point, either leaving or returning home, you have to ride westwards, and when you do, you will likely meet a headwind. And, there aren't many densely-populated corridors in Canada, so your ride-into-the-headwind may easily last for a few hours, interrupted only by rest stops.
I think I'll have a chance to discuss & perhaps test some of these bar-and-shifter options in person. In March, I'll be in Somerset, so will stop in at SJS. In July/August, I hope to ride my airhead to the West Coast, so will stop in to see Co-Motion as well. At first glance, it appears that my rando bars (48 cm) would have enough space for the Co-Motion shifter, outboard of my Arkel mounts, though I'd have to add shims. (Those recurring details...) And Dan, do send me your co-ordinates--I didn't realize you were in Oregon! Happy to buy you a meal, modest compensation for your excellent work on our behalf.
Cheers, J.
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Today I had the opportunity to compare three bicycle equipped with a Rohloff, a belt drive and a shifter on the handle bar. Three different solutions:
- a Van Nicholas Yukon with the original Rohloff shifter mounted on a two piece handle bar.
- A Santos Race Lite with a Gilles Berthould shifter.
- A Idworx (didn't see the model name, it is a new model) with a Co-Motion shifter.
The outcome is the following:
- the worse is the Co-motion: the shifter diameter is really big and the shifter surface is made of beautiful anodized black aluminum that looks nice but is very slippery, no grip at all on it. The combination of the big diameter+anodized surface makes it quite uncomfortable to use.
- then comes the Gilles Berthoud. It fits on a standard handle bar but its diameter is smaller than the Co-motion and its surface provides a good grip, it works well and is pleasant to use. I see nevertheless one drawback: the cables are exposed to dirt and water, not so good if you use your bicycle everyday also during the winter.
- The best one is actually the original Rohloff shifter, it provides the best grip, works even better than the Berthoud and the cables are protected. Of course you need a special handle bar.
I had the opportunity to try another rare thing: a bicycle with the new Pinion gear box. It was a short ride but the experience wasn't very good, shifting requires significantly more power than the Rohloff, the shifting wasn't smooth (but the bike was new) and I discovered something I didn't knew, it needs a chain tensioner (while with a Rohloff frame you can use an eccentric and get rid of the tensioner). Otherwise, as expected, the gear range is really huge.
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What a unique opportunity, Fleur, and very kind of you to relate it to us!
Your experience matches what I have found either by reading accounts online or by personal experience (Co-Motion shifter), but I was very intrigued to read your firsthand experience comparing all. One big concern I have with metal-bodied shifter alternatives is how they might feel to the hand in temperature extremes. Aluminum is a very efficient conductor of temperatures, and it seems metal shifters might well become very hot or cold depending on ambient temperatures or perhaps slippery in the wet. Perhaps some of these makers will develop rubberized over-sleeves in the future.
I've been following the Pinion development for some time, as well as another mid-mounted gearbox ( http://www.g-boxx.org/10-bikes_history.html ), and so hoped one of "us" would have a chance to try it for comparison to the Rohloff. Yes, that tensioner is tucked away where is isn't immediately noticeable and it took me awhile to tumble to its location in the photos I've seen. I think sliding dropouts might replace the tensioner, but as the Pinion is at present only available to a limited number of OEM providers, we'll have to wait and see what develops. Four more gears than the Rohloff is appealing, but the other characteristics don't sound as attractive. There are some nice "inside views" of the Pinion here: http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Pinion-gearbox-first-ride-2011.html
Wonderful ride report, Fleur; thanks!
Best,
Dan.
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"I think sliding dropouts might replace the tensioner". I don´t know the term "sliding dropouts" but I guess I have such in my bike with a Rohloff and it works well.
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Hi Pelago!
When I wrote "sliding dropouts" I was thinking of the Rohloff OEM-type dropouts that are vertical and attach to the frame with a couple allenhead bolts. Long ramped dropouts might work as well...just some means other than an eccentric BB or a tensioner to take up the slack chain as it wears.
However, as I think back on published photos, I don't recall seeing any Pinions without a tensioner of some sort...not even on rigid frames ( http://pinion.eu/en/discover-pinion/bicycle-frame-manufacturers/ ). I can understand why no EBB, but no sliding dropouts...I wonder why that is?
Best,
Dan.
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"I think sliding dropouts might replace the tensioner". I don´t know the term "sliding dropouts" but I guess I have such in my bike with a Rohloff and it works well.
Horizontal dropots ??
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4m1QqrPEBqk1faTm4u9lovunsEJZ-jPwhixUhFeNkCW1UzGEn_A)
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I always used to refer to them as track ends and considering the amount of torque you can put through them without incident they are definetly up to the job. My only concerns would be either lack of periodic tightening on the rear wheel. I think Rohloff might have an issue with it as I think (if memory serves me right) the Rohloff does not like a high tightening torque on the rear axle?
Andy
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These are what are normally referred to as Rohloff sliding dropouts :
http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/blog/?p=196
There are a few different designs but more or less similar.
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Yeah I can see how that gets round the problem. Quite a nice bit of engineering there.
Have been without a Rohloff bike in the garage for a week now and already considering another - lol
Andy
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Look at this one, a very clean design !
(http://www.hilite-bikes.com/titan/wp-content/gallery/pinion-titan-rennrad/Pinion-Titan-Rennrad5.jpg)
(http://www.hilite-bikes.com/titan/wp-content/gallery/pinion-titan-rennrad/Pinion-Titan-Rennrad3.jpg)
(http://www.hilite-bikes.com/titan/wp-content/gallery/pinion-titan-rennrad/Pinion-Titan-Rennrad8.jpg)
(http://www.hilite-bikes.com/titan/wp-content/gallery/pinion-titan-rennrad/Pinion-Titan-Rennrad21.jpg)
Here is the link, it is the Pinion Titan Rennrad at the end of the page : http://www.hilite-bikes.ch/titan/gallery/ (http://www.hilite-bikes.ch/titan/gallery/)
The drawback of such horizontal dropout is that if you have disc brakes, you need to adjust the brake position each time you modify the position of the wheel.
About the Co-Motion and also Gilles Berthoud, indeed, they will probably become very cold in the winter. One more problem of the Co-Motion is that the turning part of the shifter is not only big in diameter but also narrow, so you need to grip a big, much bigger than the handle bar, narrow, slippery wheel. If you look at the Pinion shifter above (which is similar to a Rohloff shifter), its diameter is very much the same as the one of the handle bar covered with the tape so you can easily slide your hand from the handle bar to the shifter something you can't do with the Co-Motion.
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I always used to refer to them as track ends and considering the amount of torque you can put through them without incident they are definetly up to the job. My only concerns would be either lack of periodic tightening on the rear wheel. I think Rohloff might have an issue with it as I think (if memory serves me right) the Rohloff does not like a high tightening torque on the rear axle?
Andy
Track ends, right. They'd shrug off the permissible Rohloff torque. The temptation would be overtorqueing them. -- Andre Jute
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Hi Fleur!
All debate about drivetrains aside...My! That is one gorgeous bike in my eyes! It looks "right", fast, and all of-a-piece to me.
And...not a chain tensioner in sight; the first Pinion I've seen without one.
Best,
Dan.
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I have a Santos SRR05 (Racing Lite), originally with a Rohloff shifter on the end of the drop bar, then the Gilles Berthoud on a Ritchey bar (which left the shifter partly where I would have liked to rest my hand), now a GB shifter on the new Thorn drop bars.
Simple conclusion: The Thorn bars do the trick. Plenty of space on the top bar for a comfortable grip. Good solid handlebars.
If you do need a 25.4 stem Thorn stock a range and Syntace seem to make some. The reach (diameter?) of the Thorn bar seems deeper than the Ritcheys so the saddle to brake lever reach is longer, may be only only half a centimeter.
If you want to mount a Garmin on one of the out front style mounts you will need to fit into a tight space on the right (shifter mount) side or use one of the RaceWare Direct mounts. The RaceWare does have the advantage of coming in sizes smaller than O/S (31.6) so they minimise the quantity of shim needed.
This is the third pair of bars on this bike, I'll probably stick with these until an STI style shifter comes out.
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...now a GB shifter on the new Thorn drop bars...Simple conclusion: The Thorn bars do the trick.
Really helpful report, and the first I know of on the Forum for the new Thorn 'bar in-use with the GB shifter. Sounds like a viable solution for the needs of many; thanks!This is the third pair of bars on this bike, I'll probably stick with these until an STI style shifter comes out.
Yay! Sounds like these really did to the trick for you; excellent!
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
Yesterday, I came across an entirely different approach, and I'm just kicking myself I didn't bookmark the site so I could return to the photo (Oh, look! Danneaux's found the bad sector on his mental hard drive*).
I'll do my best by description for now and post the photo later:
With drop 'bars, a bar-end (as used on MTB 'bars) replaced the right-hand brake lever, set level with where the brake hood would be. The Rohloff shifter was mounted to the bar-end and the brake lever was replaced by an interrupter lever also mounted to the bar-end. The caption claimed it offered much of the functionality of STI with the Rohloff shifter and drop 'bars.
Hopefully, this description will be enough to visualize it for those who are interested or in need of such a solution.
Best,
Dan. (...*who always knew this day would arrive :-\)
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http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/nahbs-2013-adventure-touring-bikes (http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/nahbs-2013-adventure-touring-bikes)
Some fun bike photos here, but in particular the first bike has the Rohloff shifter on its aero bars.
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http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/nahbs-2013-adventure-touring-bikes (http://www.bicycletimesmag.com/content/nahbs-2013-adventure-touring-bikes)
Some fun bike photos here, but in particular the first bike has the Rohloff shifter on its aero bars.
Hi
Yes it looks a good place to mount it.
Pete . . . .
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Hi All!
I have just posted a video showing my Rohloff shifter mounted to the T-bar above my compact drop handlebars, and how easily I can "dial-in" as many as 7 gears at a turn by "spinning the dial" from the end, approaching as I would to turn a doorknob. This setup really has proven convenient for my use, and hopefully the video will show why I prefer this location.
My YouTube channel is TheSherpaRider. The video may be found at: http://youtu.be/lVh3qb4F0sQ
I always wear cycling gloves while riding, but left them off so you can better see my finger and hand positions while shifting. It isn't a very far reach from either the regular brake hoods or from the interrupter levers mounted beneath the tops of the handlebars. I find it even a bit more convenient in practice than bar-end shifters on a derailleur bike.
I'm usually more inline when at rest on the brake hoods, but had to accommodate the very tall/wide tripod holding the camera as I shot the video.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
I did again find ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4049.msg33999#msg33999 ) the really innovative solution where a Thorn Mercury owner created an STI-like Rohloff shifter mount. I have written to ask his permission to post a photo or two here, but until I hear back, these are the URLs where you can see pictures of his design:
Root page: https://www.facebook.com/custom.furnitureworkshop
Photos of the installation on his remarkable Thorn Mercury, setup as a fast-tourer with Rohloff "brifter":
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/223464_493551927375200_1050276138_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/404872_490542837676109_1900168733_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/13074_490542447676148_335280890_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/557709_490539551009771_1587729660_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/69694_490535597676833_95392690_n.jpg
Original HB setup, possibly with a T-bar mounted shifter: https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/293152_417200015010392_600881229_n.jpg
Again... https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/561972_417199968343730_301060616_n.jpg
Earlier straight 'bar with dropped-bar-ends and *two* pairs of brake levers with double cable stops: https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/398102_271699909560404_1852967961_n.jpg
It appears he has attached some sort of bar-end to his drops in lieu of conventional brake levers, then mounted a Gilles Berthoud shifter to the right side. Both extensions carry a pair of reverse/pursuit brake levers, mimicking the effect of road-bike brake levers (a pair of interrupter levers serve in their expected role under the 'bar-tops). I'm not sure how well the brakes could be actuated from the drops, but this surely is the best example of a truly "integrated" Rohloff "brifter" installation I've seen for drop handlebars.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi All!
Ah! Permission granted by the owner to post the photos. Here's what he had to say: Yes its fine for you to share the pictures. Its a great setup and am still testing and tweeking it, but am really pleased with its performance. Im very sorry that I cant tell you the specifics of the mount as its be patented as we speak, but I can tell you its not a modified bar end but engineered by myself. Though you could modify a bar end Im sure. Sorry I cant tell you right now but as soon as its patented ill let you know.
Setup by Jake, Custom Furniture Workshop, Haverford West, Pembroke, Wales. Photos, permission to post granted by same.
Best,
Dan.
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Wow! What a wonderful thread!
I'm going to ask myself the same questions as you have been asking.
I have a Raven Tour now, and am looking at Co-Motion's Cascadia, something a bit more US road-friendly. (I'll save the RT for when I do the Divide, haha, or the C&O, or the Katy)
Since I've last bought a drop-bar bike, handlebars have evolved, and I'm hoping I might find something more comfortable than on my old Trek 2120, meaning I might possibly go back to drop bars on this bike! So that leaves me with the same shifter questions others have had.
So my 2 questions are
1. on Co-Motion's shifter, and Dan (I hope you are out there!), I've seen your video when you visited the factory. It actually looked as though it was not comfortable shifting for you. Is that correct? Did you find it to be too wide, as fleur reported? Now that you have your own Rohloff shifter, how does it compare with your test in the shop? I worry that this shifter will turn out to be a prototype.
2. Regarding the Berthoud shifter, has anyone found the external dimensions of the shifter? I haven't been able to Google it up, and I wonder how much free space it would leave on the bars, depending on the center "bulge", or if it would fit under brake levers as does the Rohloff. Does that make sense? I see some lovely photos, but I can't guess how wide the drop-bars would be to start.
Anyway, I appreciate ALL your recent thoughts on Rohloff shifters.
Thank you all for your wisdom, I can't believe how much I've learned here!
Regards,
Holly
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This is my Berthoud on the new Thorn Rohloff bars. Tried to include a larger image, and failed, so lets work off this; the Thorn Rohloff bars are 44cm bars.
The distance from the centre of the stem to the near edge of the Berthoud is approx 5cm, the gap between the stem and the shifter (i.e. the exposed part of the top of the drop bar) is approx. 2.5~3cm. The Berthoud shifter is approx 5.5cm across. With the Berthoud shift on the Thorn drop bar there is plenty of space for my hand to hold the bar, my hand takes up about 9.5cm of top bar space.
Incidentally the tumblr address is; http://alcyststuff.tumblr.com/
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Hi Holly!
If you haven't seen it already, I have more detailed thoughts about my own "on-top" T-bar shifter setup for my Nomad in my gallery descriptions and photos here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.0
This setup is working out very well for me on short and long rides. Is it perfect? No, of course not, but it is very workable -- moreso than anything else I've tried and very convenient to reach. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVh3qb4F0sQ On balance, I do prefer it to derailleur bar-end shifters for placement. The biggest "problem" is it sometimes draws unfavorable comments because it looks odd. It is aesthetically less pleasing than some solutions, but that is trumped by function for me. It also works well because I paid very close attention to cable routing throughout the steerer's range of travel.
As for drops...yes, the extended length of brake hoods has meant a return of more compact handlebars with shorter reach and drop and (yay!) parallel or near-parallel tops-and-drops. I never got along too well with anatomic or deep drops. I find I use the drops on compact 'bars frequently simply because it is not such a long/low reach to them. If I need to go "deeper", I just bend my elbows a bit more.
1. on Co-Motion's shifter, and Dan (I hope you are out there!), I've seen your video when you visited the factory. It actually looked as though it was not comfortable shifting for you. Is that correct? Did you find it to be too wide, as fleur reported? Now that you have your own Rohloff shifter, how does it compare with your test in the shop? I worry that this shifter will turn out to be a prototype.
The Co-Motion shifter is now in production, but as Danny Vrijmoet told me, "We're really not in the parts business" as a mass supplier. Rather, this was made for their bikes first, and is available for purchase by anyone. On the plus side, the Co-Motion has a lot going for it:
• Really fine workmanship.
• Smooth action.
• Beautiful integration when used with 31.8mm clamp-section handlebars, allowing it to be slid on 'round the bends.
• Requires minimal room on the handlebars, leaving a lot of the tops free for various hand positions.
• What appears to be better weather sealing than the Gilles Berthoud unit.
It also had some marked drawbacks for my use and preference, which may not be typical:
• It is black-anodized, uncoated aluminum. Aluminum conducts heat very well, which in my eyes means it is likely to be cold in cold weather and blistering hot in the desert climes where I tour. For this reason alone, I don't think it would be usable for me.
• It has a pretty hefty diameter, and -- while the motion was very fluid -- it was not noticeably lower in effort. Being uncoated, the aluminum was slippery (I think it would be hard to actuate in the rain), and the dished grip portion was not too easy to grip. I have narrow hands with long, bony, but very strong fingers. While it was okay indoors, under less than ideal conditions I think it might be difficult for me to grasp and actuate. This is a prediction, since I have not used it under rainy, wet, cold, or hot conditions myself. Co-Motion's production shifter has very nicely and clearly laser-etched shift numbers, something the model in the video lacked.
• Nice as they may be, the Co-Motion and Berthoud shifters are aftermarket parts. As with all such things, they don't have direct Rohloff factory support in terms of replacement parts availability through Rohloff. Any "boutique" part can disappear if circumstances change, but in this case, Co-Motion made the shifter for bikes they also produce in-house, so there is an incentive to continue to support it. Similarly, though Gilles Berthoud is a small touring specialist and manufacturer, this is a bread-and-butter item for them, congruent with their market focus. Origin wasn't nearly as important to me as other factors, but there are far more OEM Rohloff shifters and parts in the hands of users and in the sales and distribution stream than there are competitors' products.
• The biggest drawback of the Co-Motion shifter for me arose because I could not access it from the end -- the key reason why my present setup works so well for my needs as shown in the video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVh3qb4F0sQ ). I've mentioned this before, but as I worked with Andy Blance to spec the Nomad, I put a lot of time and effort at my end into doing my own human-factors and ergonomic analyses before I made my basic setup request. Andy did mention the Gilles Berthoud was not as well sealed for extended touring use in severe conditions.
Things fell together for me when I spent a good 45 minutes studying how I open doorknobs. I found I very rarely "roll" a doorknob with my arm and hand parallel to the door. Rather, I approach it from the end and grasp the knob that way, twisting it open with my thumb and several fingers -- just as I shift the Rohloff in the video I linked to above. This is much easier on my hand, wrist, and elbow, and allows me greater leverage to turn the shifter or even spin ("speed dial") it. It allows me to use the original Rohloff shifter, ensuring future availability of parts. Even better: The grip is rubberized and insulated against heat and cold and maintains a good grip when wet, addressing each of those needs.
All of this meant T-bar mounting was ideal for me. I started with it below the handlebars, then in that location switched it from the 55mm T-bar to a 105mm T-bar, co-located it with the HB bag mount, then mounted it alone. Each of these was workable for me, but the real revelation was triggered by Andre Jute, who -- on seeing an emailed photo -- said "You've got it all wrong, Dan!" I investigated to see if it was indeed possible to mount the shifter on a T-bar above the handlebars.
Though I prefer my T-bar setup (which can be rotated around the steerer to adjust the angle of approach) mounting the shifter on a bar-end HubBub adapter also allows for an end-on approach with many of the same advantages.
Again, my situation and preferences helped in getting what I needed:
• I would have preferred a Nomad with a short top-tube as I had on (560S) Sherpa, but the closest available was a medium (590M). To get my preferred position and reach meant going for a short (60mm inverted riser) stem and compact handlebars that matched the drop and reach of my other bikes' handlebars (Maes-bend with the same dimensions as my other randonneur 'bars) while allowing "normal" brake lever placement. Andy did a great job of getting me in the ballpark with a 90mm stem, anatomic 'bars, and very high-mounted brake levers, and this got me close enough to know what was needed to get where I finally wanted to be. Whenever I buy a new bike, I always budget a bit "extra" to fine-tune the positional adjustment with new handlebars and stem if needed, so this was no surprise. I now have a perfect fit in every respect and easy shifting with drop 'bars using the original Rohloff shifter.
• Two other factors pushed me toward this above-'bar mount:
1) My 60mm stem was too short to mount my GPS in the center; the 105mm T-bar provided the perfect perch while placing the shifter just ahead of the handlebars as well as above them, leaving me plenty of room to twist the shifter without obstruction.
2) I wished to leave my steerer uncut for maximum future flexibility in setup, and so the extra length was just sitting there anyway; putting the T-bar shifter up-top gave that extra steerer length an immediate purpose. As it happened, putting the shifter's T-bar up-top also took some gadgets off the handlebars. It allows room for my SkyMounti Inclinometer and a perfect place to mount the Rowi camera clamp that holds the GoPro POV vidcam above the handlebar bag or allows me to swivel toward me to make my own "interviews". While 44cm handlebars are "wide" for drops, there is nowhere near as much room as on wider straight or comfort 'bars, so removing the shifter and gadgets leaves the entire drop handlebar free for gripping.
• I'm pretty careful with money, and Thorn's Accessory T-bars are a very economical way to experiment with shifter placement at a fraction the cost of an aftermarket shifter. I kept the Co-Motion and GB both in mind as eventual possibilities, but my present setup works so well for me, I don't plan to change. I have grown used to the setup and if I someday switched to a non-drop handlebar, I would probably leave the shifter on its high-mounted T-bar. Its location makes headset and other service a breeze.
• I allow myself the time and use needed to modify the bike after getting to know it. Usually by the 6-month mark (about now in my ownership), things are where they will stay. Up till then, I figure things are going to change and I avoided padding or taping the new handlebars till I knew things were final. Good thing, too. The 42cm compact 'bars proved just too narrow, and I had to buy a 44cm to replace them. I'll recover about half the cost by selling them on eBay, so USD$20 wasn't too much to find and finalize my "forever" setup.
I hope this helps, Holly. If you have any questions, you're welcome to PM me. Since I have no direct experience with the GB shifter, I'll defer comment on it in favor of other members' own experience.
Best,
Dan.
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alcyst, yes! That tells me the story. I believe I read the Thorn bar has a 40mm 'bulge'. I'm happy to know there is enough room to work with, possibly even with a different bar, as it appears you placed the shifter where it was most comfortable for you, not placed adjacent to the stem. Perfect! I'm estimating the OD is about the same as the width. Good place to start. Thank you for posting the photo.
Dan, I apologize for not mentioning your excellent video on your solution, it was so thorough, I just couldn't think of any questions ;D. However, I didn't think about the aftermarket products and support, I'll need to keep that in mind. I certainly haven't had any problems with the Rohloff shifter, and would prefer it as well. Oddly, C/M doesn't want more than 40mm in spacers on their bikes, and whether the reason is for looks, or for function, we haven't gotten that far in our discussions. That would limit accessory bar use (maybe) but I'm sure it could be done for a price. Also, I've gotten comfortable with the Rohloff on the comfort bars, and hadn't thought much further than that! I guess the Thorn has spoiled me in some ways.
Thank you again Forumites, the research continues!
Regards,
Holly
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Hi All!
Another option is coming to market in the form of Tour Terrain's Cinq5 Shift:R twin-trigger Rohloff shifter that works with drop or straight handlebars. It looks as if it might be possible to position the trigger shifters near the brake hoods as well as across the tops of drop handlebars. See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=7167.msg45621;topicseen#msg45621
Best,
Dan.
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Thought I would update with some finished pics of my new dropbar setup. This one uses a stub tube mounted to the bars.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100403540@N04/9678251255/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100403540@N04/9681487578/
I have also included some pics of my stealth aero setup for your amusement.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100403540@N04/9678252551/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/100403540@N04/9678254339/
Happy viewing.
Chris
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Time to marvel anew at your skills, Chris -- a fine job to meet your needs.
I...I can't help myself. I *need* the "aero* setup for commuting in traffic. I really do. I have a hunch Jawine could use one as well.
All the best,
Dan. (...who really appreciates your sharing this)
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I had thought about starting a new thread with the 13th way, but since this thread was resurrected I won't make a new one.
I am just about finished tuning and adjusting my setup. Tried a few ways to attach shifter. I tried the shifter on the T Bar, but my interrupter brake lever was in the way, if I moved the brake lever forward to be out of the way, then the handlebar bag was in the way of the brake lever. Placing my shifter where I did would be a problem if I stood on the pedals to climb hills, but I do not stand on the pedals to power up hills because my knees can't take it.
I asked Rodriguez how much they wanted for their Doohickey, they quoted (with shipping) $110 USD. I could buy the Thorn T Bar for half that much, even with shipping to USA and cut the bar off of the T Bar and use that the same way. So the Doohickey was in my opinion too exorbitant. (Perhaps since it is intended for use with a Rohloff, the price is tripled?)
I planned to cut the bar of the T Bar, but I decided first to try one last option first, and I have been happy enough with that option that I am not doing any surgery on a T Bar. See photos. Mountain bikers sometimes install a bar end that (sometimes) is the same diameter as the handlebar that allows them to grip the bar end instead of the bar. I bought a used pair of bar ends, cut one down and attached it on the Thorn T Bar that I use to hold my handlebar bag.
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A second photo that I thought was attached to the above post, but did not get attached.
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Wow that is some set up twin headlights and how did you attach that sat nav.
please post more photos of your set up so as i steal a few ideas ;)
jags.
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More photos later.
On handlebar, bell on left and computer (VDO wireless) on right side. Plus the interrupter or cyclocross type brake levers that consume some of the useable bar space.
Stem cap has on left side a HRM wrist watch type with a handlebar adapter, vintage Garmin Legend GPS on right. Stem cap is a plastic gizmo by Delta:
http://deltacycle.com/accessories/hold-its/computer-caddy
The two headlights are wired in series, SP Dynamo hub. They are the bottle generator type lights, no switch, great sale price from SJS. I unplug at the hub for a switch. Bracket is home made, piece of metal with one hole in middle for bolt into fork, two 90 degree bends and a hole on each end threaded for M6 to hold each light. I need about 4.5 mph (sorry, not sure speed in km/hour) minimum to get any light, so the second light increases the minimum speed needed to get any light. I bought the lights on speculation when I ordered the frame and fork, decided to use them this way. I also bought a light with switch, but when I wired one bottle generator with one switched Lumotec, one light would flicker when switch in off position. Not sure why, but I quit trying to configure that one. There will be times that I put one switchable light on the bike instead of the pair.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/busch-and-muller-d-lumotec-oval-led-headlight-for-bottle-dynamos-prod31003/
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Very nice looking setup, Mickeg! Looks good indeed, ideally suited to your needs, and ingenious.
I, too, prefer that end-on approach to the shifter and it turns as easily as opening a doorknob that way, even allowing one to "speed-dial" through a range of gears in one smooth shift.
I'm still intrigued by all the ways people have setup their Rohloff shifters to work with drop handlebars -- talk about innovation!
Best,
Dan.
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Jags requested more photos. This is the view from when you are riding the bike and looking down at the electronics or Rohloff shifter.
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Very tidy cockpit, mickeg! Everything needed falls ready to hand, and this shot also shows the Rohloff shifter placement very nicely.
Well done!
Best,
Dan.
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And from the front with handlebar bag removed. To reiterate, if I stood on the pedals to accelerate, the shifter would likely get in the way of my leg or knee, but the condition of my knees prevents me from standing on the pedals anymore.
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well thought out set up.my son in law made me a stem cap for my garmin done agreat job on it ,copied it from the paul stem cap but dont tell anyone. ;)
great photos thanks for posting.
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Any chance of sharing your Nomad with a full side on shot? - Looks a stunning machine.
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Two more photos, one photo per post.
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And this photo. And I suppose you want the parts list too.
SP Dynamo front hub, 36h.
Rigida (Ryde) CSS rims, 36h. Drilled for Shraeder, Wheels Mfg adapter for Presta allows Presta tubes to be used (I prefer Presta) but can use Shrader if Presta are unavailable.
Wheelsmith spokes, Sapim nipples.
Fenders, Bontrager. These full size fenders will stay home if I travel using the S&S case.
Front brake, XT T780 with Travel Agent.
D Lumotec Oval lights, two bottle type in series, but for some trips might instead use a single switched model of that light.
Headset, the one supplied with frame, do not recall what it was.
XLC Stem. 90mm, 35 degree.
Handlebars, do not recall brand and model, they were cheap when I bought them sometime back, 31.8mm.
Tektro cross top (interuptor) brake levers, 31.8mm.
Cane Creek brake levers, I thought I had a spare set of the regular levers but found that they were the short pull version. But they work without hitting the bar so will keep these.
VDO computer, wireless, do not recall model. I normally prefer wired, but a travel bike with S&S warrants a wireless. Wheel sensor on rear so I can put the bike on my trainer.
Handlebar bag, Louis Garneau HB-9, modified with stiffiner added to lid.
Thorn T Bar, shortest one, do not recall length.
Delta Stem Cap, sold as a Computer Caddy.
Bottom Bracket, Shimano UN55, 122.5mm.
Vuelta Corsa Crankarms. Purchased as complete crankset with 50/34t rings that are currently in storage.
Bashguard/chainguard was actually a 52t chainring on clearance price from SJS, I cut the teeth off of it to convert to a chainguard.
Chainring 44t, generic by Seatle Sports, less than $11 USD from Niagara. Was silver color, I sprayed it black. For touring I will remove the chainguard and use both a 36t and 44t chainrings on the double crank. If I am looking at several hours of substantial climbing, I will remove a section of chain (have two quick links installed) and switch to the 36t, but normally use a 44t ring.
Chain, KMC but I do not recall version.
Pedals, Shimano M324
Rear brakes, Tektro CR720 cantilever with a Dia Comp hanger mounted on the seat stay rack mounts.
Rohloff, black, ex box, 36h, 16t cog.
Halo skewers that take a normal 5mm Allen wrench.
Surly Nice rear rack. I used to tour with this rack, switched to a Tubus Logo EVO for touring, thus this was not currently in use. Not sure which rack I will use for touring but for around town will likely keep using the Surly.
Vistalite 5 LED model rear light, homemade bracket to mount on Surly rack.
Brooks Conquest saddle.
Tires. (Sorry, I am in USA, we spell tires this way.) For around town use I currently have WTB Nanoraptors, but for touring will use Marathon Extremes.
Extras:
The little brass Shrader/Presta adapters on the valve stems. Sometimes I use a Shraeder pump, sometimes a Presta.
Pump, at this time a Road Morph G, but have a couple others. A bit of tape covers the chuck to keep the dust out, a modification that I recomend to everyone.
Greenfield kickstand.
The black velcro/neoprene wraps around the S&S couplers to keep the dirt out are sold as athletic wrist wraps.
Front rack, am still undecided which of my many racks will be used for touring.
Water bottle cages, Minoura, selected for color which is a near match.
A bag that fits in the waterbottle cage that holds a few tools, spare tube, tire boot, disposable gloves, plastic bag and seat cover for rain, etc.
Bell. This one uses a metal bracket that I could bend and with use of longer screws I could fit it on the 31.8mm bars.
Vintage Etrex Legend GPS. ALso own a vintage Vista model that uses the same bracket. Installed on the Delta Computer Caddy stem cap.
Heart Rate Monitor, Sports Instruments (no longer made), a wrist watch style with a handlebar adapter, installed on the Delta Computer Caddy Stem Cap.
You may recall that 1960s and 70s 3 speed bikes often came with a wrench which included a spanner for the bottom bracket. I found that with a bit of work with a file, that bottom bracket spanner works on the S&S couplers just fine. I am using one of those in my tool bag, but I think it unlikely that I will ever find a use for the Whitworth fittings on that wrench.
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Ah now, what a beauty, mickeg! So much care and love evident in the build -- well done and nicely shared; thanks for the sideview photos!
Best,
Dan.
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ah i see you have the same bidons as meself. ;D
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Thanks for the pics & detailed spec Mickeg. I'm guessing it's a 590M framesize?
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Yes, 590M.
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Hi All!
Co-Motion have updated their Rohloff shifter for drop handlebars. See:
http://www.co-motion.com/index.php/product/rohloff-shifter
Their newsletter says...We have had some great feedback this year since we released the Co-Motion drop-bar Rohloff shifter, all very constructive. We listened and and have made our new Rohloff shifter more user friendly. For those with smaller hands, we have been able to decrease the overall diameter. To improve grip in wet and cold weather or for gloved hands, we've added machined cross-hatch knurling.
It also has laser-etched numbers for greater visibility.
Earlier discussion of my firsthand view of the introductory model here, with photos:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4049.msg21254#msg21254
Best,
Dan.
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The previous version was beautiful with its smooth black anodized surface but very slippery even dry.
This new surface will surely provide much more grip but I am afraid that it won't be comfortable, especially after hours of ride with many shifting.
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What is so hard about putting a rubber grip on the rotating bezel ??
Also, does this new model seal off the cables from the elements? A big flaw with the first version.
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...does this new model seal off the cables from the elements? A big flaw with the first version.
Hi Pete! The Co-Motion shifter has always had o-ring seals, but the Berthoud model has used open cable runs.
Best,
Dan.
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Has anybody here tried the Origin8 Pro-pulsion Road Ends as a way of getting a drop bar whilst using the Rohloff twist shifter.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/origin8-pro-pulsion-road-ends-drop-bar-bar-ends-black-prod18606/
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Hi Mac'!
I haven't, but I do recall seeing just this setup in either the SJSC blog at one time or pictured in an earlier catalog
A photo of the setup appears (tiny) on the ad copy for the Origin8s on the SJSC page:
(http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/18606_2.jpg)
I sometimes like to ride on that upper curve of my drops, and would find the clamp there to be uncomfortable. All other positions would be usable, though.
Best,
Dan.
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Have a look at www.rohbox.de and/or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbXtgQQTbvs. Instead of inventing yet another compatible shifter or drop bar Georg Blaschke proposes a ratcheted EX box replacement that is compatible with every shifter that can repeatedly pull a length of cable.
regards,
Ludwig (not in any way connected to Blaschke bikes)
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Nice one, Ludwig, and welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum!
I looked at this while the Forum was down, and am impressed by its simplicity and direct design. I'm not sure how long the springs would last, but even if they eventually failed, they would be easy to replace. Surely nice to see a solution that cuts cleanly and clearly to its goal with utter simplicity as a virtue.
Looking forward to some long-term reports from users.
Best,
Dan.
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This one looks VERY interesting. Not seen it before.
https://youtu.be/CxROkCIreMQ
(http://www.richardcresswell.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Img-for-flyer-300x225.jpg)
http://www.richardcresswell.net/rohloff-thumb-shifter/
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More on the Cresswell ratchet shifter for Rohloff hubs here: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6541.0
Best,
Dan.