Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Battery Charging from a Dynamo => Topic started by: Danneaux on October 31, 2011, 03:57:49 pm

Title: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on October 31, 2011, 03:57:49 pm
Hi All,

Though I have yet to ride with it (I'm currently in mid-installation routing the wires to facilitate future headset service), I have decided on Tout Terrain's "The Plug 2" USB adapter to meet my on-tour power-generating needs.  I am impressed with the design, and installation is fairly straightforward once the star-fangled nut is removed from the steerer.  See my post here for an easy way to remove the SFN: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3800.0

The Plug 2 has its circuitry fully contained in the top cap, and needs only an additional spacer or two so the electrical connector in the base can clear TT's optional removable anchor.  It is compact, built for stout, and appears to be as waterproof as possible for such a device.

Once it is fully installed, I can give a report on how it works in practice.  I intend using it in lieu of the extra batteries I have had to carry to power and charge my GPS, the UV water purifier, the cell phone, my camera batteries, auxiliary lighting like my head-mounted LED lamp, an occasionally-carried small radio for camp weather and road-condition reports, and even my electric shaver on extended trips (Hey!  It is light and requires no water -- unlike conventional shaving gear -- and is a nice addition for when I wish to look better when crossing paths with the Civilized World).

At this year's Cologne Bike Show, Tout Terrain announced a new addition to The Plug 2, called the "Extra Power".  There isn't much information as yet on their website ( http://www.en.tout-terrain.de/accessories/electric-power-supply/ ), only a small blurb saying...
-------------------------------
"The Plug II Extra Power

"Through our P.A.T. (Power Amplification Technology) system, that is optionally used, the power output of the Plug II can be optimized. This is particularly useful for users of smart phones or rechargeable batteries that want to maximize their power output on the road. Concealed, the extra power module is attached in the fork tube, so there are no other cables necessary outside."
-------------------------------
If I understand correctly, this is an inline addition to The Plug 2, and increases the output through some means (don't quite see how, as The Plug 2 is regulated at USB 2.0 output standards...).  It would be great if this accessory reduced charging times or allowed for directly powering devices like Smart Phones, which often have higher current draw than other devices.

Anyone seen one or tried it yet?  If so, I'd love to hear your impressions.

Thanks in advance,

Dan.
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: AndrewC on January 08, 2012, 11:17:20 am
Hi Dan,

How are you getting on with The Plug ?   I've the usual complement of gadgets to charge whilst on tour and would be interested in this, or something similar.

Thanks

Andrew
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 08, 2012, 08:09:59 pm
Hi Andrew,

A good question, and one I still have myself.  It's early days and the TTTP2 looks extremely promising so far, but the real test will be on an extended tour when it is used every day.  I also don't know how much actual riding it will take to charge up flat batteries rather than just topping them off, and that's why I was considering the TTTP2 Extra Power option they mention (but haven't described) on their website.  Anything that cuts charging time sounds attractive to me, though I can't figure how it is supposed to increase power, since the basic TTTP2 is internally regulated.

On the positive end of things, the TTTP2 is the best-executed of the on-bike chargers I've seen and researched and I am really happy with it.  It is solidly constructed, installs cleanly with wires inside the steerer, looks to be very long-lived in all weather, and works as advertised.  It is also very expensive by itself.  A person really does have to figure the extra cost (~USD$20) of the TT star-nut replacement into the overall cost as well.  I did choose the SON28 (original, more bulky, slightly higher drag, higher output) dynohub to power it, as I wanted to have plenty of generating capacity, though I intend to do my charging with my LED lighting off.  As it is, just a second or two after I start off, the TTTP2 LED glows green, showing it is supplying a steady USB2.0 current of ~5 volts -- and it does so at a reasonable speed, according to my meter.

I wanted to charge my batteries so I could save the weight and bulk of a kg+ of spare batteries, needed to see me through a good months' use.  I use mostly rechargeables, but unless I happen to stay overnight at a motel (rare), there isn't an opportunity to fill 'em back up; trees and sagebrush have no outlets.

The idea is to swap the charging appliances in and out of the handlebar bag and leave them off while charging rather than using the TTTP2 to power them directly. The GPS isn't needed all the time, so this makes sense and allows me to use the appliances when I'm not riding.

My gadgets tend to be high-draw/high-drain.  The touchscreen Garmin Oregon 400T GPS swills current, and works best with either lithium or Eneloop-type high-capacity rechargeables.  In my use, the lithiums may remain the best solution there.  The SteriPen Classic water purifier uses a lot of juice, but weighs less than the fuel used to boil water and doesn't clog like a filter and is ready in about 90 seconds with cold water, rather than waiting 30 minutes with pills.  I think the best route in each case is to charge the AA cells for them, and then swap the charged ones in as needed.  The more problematic appliances are the electric shaver (it is light and requires no precious -- and heavy -- water to shave so I end up ahead of the game weightwise) and the cell phone.  Those require me to construct specialized USB cords or adapters to power them and I'm doing so now.  When out so far from cell towers, my phone consumes a lot of power just to connect, so battery life is less than in urban areas.  I leave it off till I actually need to use it so it won't consume power "searching" while on standby.  The camera remains problematic, as I will have to make some board mods on its charger.  The camera batteries aren't bad for stills but go flat pretty quickly when shooting HD video.  Low-drain items include my LED headlight used around camp and my LED blinky, used to supplement the generator taillight in urban traffic and on night roads with limited sightlines.  The Eurocoin-sized MP3 player has a low-drain circuit powered by a li-po cell, and it doesn't take much to keep it going, though I almost never use it on-tour and never-ever while actually riding.

High-capacity batteries take a lot longer to fill back up, so that is a factor in charging options, too.  At least I'm not dependent on the sun and whenever I'm moving, I can generate power.  I have toyed with the idea of detachable ripstop-nylon "blades" I could clip to the front wheel of the bike when in camp.  It would surely be nice to go to sleep and awaken to find the desert or coastal night winds had charged my batteries overnight.  That would be ideal!

The effectiveness of the TTTP2 (or any on-bike charger) depends heavily upon the resistance of the cords and the efficiency of the charging adapters.  Some reel-type USB cords have unusually high electrical resistance and some of the USB battery charging adapters (the ones that hold the batteries) have really low efficiency.  I am beginning to realize the overall value of any on-bike charging system depends on getting all the sub-systems optimized as well.

I should know more as time goes by, but all looks good so far if I can get the rest of the system up to the same level as the TTTP2.   More reports later as I gain some extended experience with it.  I'll keep the Forum posted as I learn more.  I'm happy to answer any questions 'best I can.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: AndrewC on January 19, 2012, 11:19:05 pm
Hi Andrew,

 I did choose the SON28 (original, more bulky, slightly higher drag, higher output) dynohub to power it, as I wanted to have plenty of generating capacity, though I intend to do my charging with my LED lighting off.  As it is, just a second or two after I start off, the TTTP2 LED glows green, showing it is supplying a steady USB2.0 current of ~5.5 volts -- and it does so at a reasonable speed, according to my meter.
 
Best,

Dan.

Hi Dan, are you comparing the SON klassik against the new model SON 28 here or against one of the other available models ?  What were the differences in output ?
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 20, 2012, 01:44:09 am
Hi Andrew,

My SON28 came with my Sherpa, ordered and assembled in August 2011.  It is the model now referred to on the Schmidt website as the Klassik (Classic), produced from model years 2000 to 2011.  The New SON28 is built upon the design of the SONDelux (the SONDelux weighs 140g less than my Klassik, with 15% less drag without a load -- not very noticeable in practice -- and has a lower output at a given speed because it was originally intended for smaller wheels).  At present, Thorn's option list offers a choice only between the SON28 Klassik and the SONDelux.  I chose the Klassik for its higher output so I could be assured it would produce enough juice to run my Tout Terrain The Plug 2 to charge batteries at a reasonable speed.  

It is awfully hard to find specific output figures to compare the various models, and I do not know for sure if the Klassik SON28 and the New SON28 have the same output, but I strongly suspect the do.  I do know the Klassik and New SON28 have a higher output than the Delux.

I get the impression any remaining Klassiks on the market are old-stock for most shell drillings.  I would imagine Thorn have a sizable backstock for bike builds, as they are still a current option on their order forms at this writing.  Peter White advises ( http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp ) that as of Fall 2011, the Klassik (Classic) is "only being made" in 40 and 48-hole drillings and in polished silver finish.

There have been a number of changes between the Klassik and New SON28s, and across the entire line.  The hub shells are the most obvious difference; the newer ones have a sphere-shaped center section with what appears to be a zig-zag center pattern (a join line?  engraved pattern?  I have yet to examine one...) and in many cases, different flange spacing (even super-narrow versions for Brompton, Dahon, Moulton, and Bike Friday Tiket folders) and the option to mount a brake disk.  The spherical design and change in flange spacing has cut weight and reduced the interior shell volume, making it even less likely water will be drawn in past the bearings as the air within the shell equalizes between warm and cold temps (as when taking the bike out of a warm house on a winter day).  The older design handles this with a small vent hole midway through the axle, and it is important to use an ungreased quick-release to avoid plugging the vent (doing otherwise will void the warranty).  A smaller shell will also minimize the problem which has not been a problem in practice for the vast majority of users.

The SL versions of SON hubs connect to plates in specially-built fork ends/dropouts, eliminating the external wire connectors from the hub.  It is a very clean and clever design, but requires either a custom-built fork or one available from Schmidt.  The dropouts/fork ends are available to builders.

As far as nomenclature goes, it appears the SON28 hub produced from 2000-2011 is now referred to as the SON28 Klassik.  It has been replaced in the current model lineup by the New SON28 using the same shell design as the SONDelux (or Deluxe, with an "e" added to the end in some markets and advertising).  Meanwhile, the outgoing SON20/20R (intended for use on bikes with nominal 16"-20" rims) has been redesigned with the new spherical shell and renamed the SONDelux.  These hubs are popular with fast randonneurs and others riding 700C rims at speed because of their lower drag with the larger wheels; higher speeds compensate for the lower output.  The name change came about in part due to a change in German lighting laws governing labeled light output.  According to Peter,
Quote
Previously, it was illegal under German law for Schmidt to sell the SON20R in Germany for use in 700c wheels. But the law has been changed, provided the customer also buys a LED headlight. So now, Schmidt can sell the SON20R for use with 700c rims, as long as the wheel is used to power certain LED headlights that produce high output with very little power. So there's no longer any need to call the hub a "SON20R", implying it's only suitable for 20" and smaller wheels. Hence, the name change to SONdelux
 This month (January 2012) Schmidt will make available a wide-body version of the SonDelux with increased spacing between the flanges.  This should recover some lateral strength in wheels built with it compared to the older Klassik (my Klassic measures ~62mm to the outside of the flanges; the SONDelux is 50mm and the Widebody SONDelux is 68mm.  No disk or SL versions in the Widebody Delux).  

Whew.

As for your question comparing specific output, well, that's where it goes from confusing to murky.  I only have my SON28 Klassik at-hand to measure, and there isn't much readily available on the 'Net at present to show how the new model compares.  As for mine, an output chart available here ( http://www.baldurdash.org/OtherStuff/www.nabendynamo.de/12vinfo.htm ) indicates the output varies with the speed and load, as expected.  With no load, the SON28 Klassik put out a measured 6 volts at about 7kph/4,3mph  At roughly 13kph/8mph, 12 volts is available no-load.  With a 6v/3w incandescent lighting system, 6 volts is available at about 8.5kph/5.28mph and 12 volts at about 21kph/13mph.  This squares with Peter Whites inference that a 6v/3w system will achieve "full power" and  "bright light" at about 8.8kph/5.5 mph.  Peter indicates a SONDelux in the same conditions would require a minimum speed of 12kph/7.5mph.

Powered by my SON28 Klassic (with 26x2.0 tires), the green LED on my TTTP2 indicating adequate USB output (5 volts) comes on solidly above about 5.5 mph by my bike computer, and that agrees with my voltmeter.  The TTTP2 is voltage-regulated, so the output should remain constant independent of dynamo output.  If my device draws current and voltage beyond what the TTTP2 can provide, the green LED blinks.  Turning the device off allows the batteries to be charged even if there isn't enough juice to power the device directly.

I have yet to find data showing the output of the New SON28 compared to the Klassik.  For that matter it has been hard to find specific output data for the SONDelux.  SON only list their dynohub outputs "per StVZO".  I've spent quite a lot of time wading through the German StVZO governmental regulations for bicycle lighting, but all those reference minimum standards for output at minimum speeds using incandescent light sources.

If you're still with me, the best information may be found in a translation of Schmidt's current SON28 data sheet.  Here's my own translation:
Quote
SON28 means 'Schmidt's Original Hub (Naben) Dynamo', with general approval for 28 (29) inch wheel sizes. Introduced Fall 2011, the new model is similar in structure and appearance to the SONdelux. Flange and bearing distance (for the non-disc-Version) are considerably larger, so it can be viewed as the Big Brother of the SONdelux, both technically and electro-mechanically.

The SON28 produces its rated voltage and power at about 20% less speed than the SONdelux.

Because of this, we recommend the SON28 if you need more light at low speed of use it to operate other devices.  In terms of drag, it is between the best and the SONdelux.

The New SON28 weighs about 25% less than the Klassik SON28.

From this, it appears (as yet unconfirmed) the New SON28 is identical in output to the Klassik SON28.

Hope this helps; wish I could be more definitive.

Dan.
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: AndrewC on January 21, 2012, 01:14:51 pm
 :o   That's quite a reply Dan !  ;D   Thank you for going into so much detail.

Still havering over a Schmidt, or a much cheaper Shimano.    I think I'll go for one of the external chargers rather than the ToutTerrain Plug though. I have 2 bikes with 26" wheels and it makes sense to be able to move the wheel and charger between them.

There is a discussion of chargers here http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=55583.0 (http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=55583.0)  The Softhema chargers from Germany appear to be a new possibility.

 
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: rualexander on January 21, 2012, 04:46:21 pm
I took a Softhema cable charger on holiday in September.
It worked well for three or four days then failed, wouldn't charge anything and was getting hot with increasing speed.
When I got home I contacted the seller by email and he said there may have been a short circuit and to send it back. I had already cut it open just in case there was anything obvious like a broken wire, so I didn't bother returning it, given the low cost of around ?15. However the seller admitted in his reply that he was producing these units on a "hobby" basis, so I don't think I could recommend them.
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2012, 08:46:14 pm
One thing for sure, we could all use cheaper, good alternatives for bicycle lighting and (generator) charging.  The high-end kit works very well indeed, but is terribly expensive due to a number of factors. There is the exchange rate, customs, and shipping.  These are semi-handbuilt, limited-production items, and one pays a premium as an early-adopter. If the market develops further, costs should drop thanks to production economies of scale. We're seeing a bit of that in Shimano's lower prices and increasing dynohub efficiency; they certainly have the production capacity. Thanks goodness for LEDs making everything brighter at lower speeds; that alone makes good lighting more available, and Shimano's hubs are an effort to plug the gap between basic "be seen" battery lighting and the more costly Schmidt dynohubs.

If a lower-cost setup can work even 80% as well as the expensive stuff and cost only 65% as much, it is well worth considering. If it can be made portable for use on more than one bike -- even better. Adequate lighting makes such a difference to safety and the basic usability of a bike, but is only as good as one can afford, and price is something most of us struggle with. I surely do. As it is, I'll be selling several frames and a couple bikes to pay myself back for the Sherpa and his lighting and charging systems.  I'd love to have similar lighting on my rando bike, but it will have to wait some time till I can afford it. Even then, the most likely upgrade will be a Cyo-type headlight for the ancient Sanyo BB generator, currently running a horrid Sanyo Xenon supplemented with a couple LED battery lights.  Till then, I'll choose which bike to ride based on the likelihood of being out after dark.

Some products work well and others don't, independent of price.  For example, I'm learning overall charging system efficiency depends on every component in the chain being optimized, and it is costly to make a mistake.  This forum is a wonderful venue to exchange information on what works and doesn't.  If we can each report our experiences, we'll create a database of sorts for good lighting and charging solutions at whatever price-points they become available.

Best,

Dan.

Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2012, 10:39:10 pm
For those interested in alternatives to Tout Terrain's "The Plug 2" charger, here are links to various commercial alternatives. I compiled them while researching the TTTP2 summer and fall 2011.  There are more but these are some leading contenders that have made it to market and persisted in use for awhile. There are some new products on the horizon that are either fresh to market or not fully developed and have yet to appear on my list.  Among those are a dynohub that is geared and powered off the rear hub, mechanically switchable to eliminate all drag in an idle state. I will update these links periodically with commercial and homemade solutions, so check back if you're curious. When not working and dealing with the business of Life, I am Riding/Adventuring.  I realize others may also be interested in these things, and I really need to take the time to put up a fresh website for my lighting, framebuilding and bike-related stuff and tour pics/trip accounts so they can be easily found in one place.  

For those who have asked, I chose Tout Terrain's The Plug 2 because it seemed the most fully-realized solution for my needs at the time I ordered it.  It also appeared the most likely to actually work in practice and continue working in severe conditions. Given the cost, I am committed to it at present, but am still very interested to see what else is available that might be as good or better.  I thought seriously of making my own charger; it is not that different from the voltage regulator/DC rectifier I made in the past. The real problems related to packaging and sealing.  I just couldn't come up with a solution as compact or well-sealed as the TTT2, though the Sherpa fork's generator mounts were simply crying out for a small case and circuit board in that location.  Larger-scale components instead of small ICs and surface-mount components make for packaging, cooling, and sealing problems and some of my earlier attempts resulted in cracked boards and cards no matter how well I isolated them with rubber bumpers. These same problems afflict some of the commercial products as well.  The Plug 2 was ready to roll and well-executed; it should last awhile.

Also in answer to a question, the TTTP2 will apparently charge all models of Apple's iPhone directly, without a special cable. I cannot confirm this, as I do not have an iPhone.  Some dynohub/charger combos cannot provide the current needed to power GPS units or SmartPhones directly.  In that case, the device batteries can usually be charged while the appliance is turned off.  An alternative is to power those devices through use of a buffer battery.  In that case, the dyno hub charges a separate battery by various means, and it is used to directly power or recharge the device (in an on or off state) to the limit of the buffer battery's capacity.  The unloaded buffer battery is then recharged by the dynohub and made ready for use again.  Basically, the buffer battery is a relatively short-term, high-load battery and charging supply for high-draw/high-drain appliances and is simply trickle-charged by the dynohub.

Best,

Dan.

Andreas Oehler, of Schmidt Maschinenbau produces a good overview of the available commercial charging products as of July 2010; see his test site here:
http://fahrradzukunft.de/12/steckdose-unterwegs-2/
Google-translation to English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffahrradzukunft.de%2F12%2Fsteckdose-unterwegs-2%2F&act=url

ADA Bikeconverter
http://ada-bikeconverter.de/
English translation: http://ada-bikeconverter.de/?page_id=112

AXA Nano headlight with USB charger (won't charge with light on)
http://www.axa-nano.com/
Google-translation to English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.axa-nano.com%2F&act=url

Bike2Power SpinPOWER S1, I3, and I4
http://www.bike2power.com/

Busch und Muller E-werk dynamo battery charger
http://www.bumm.de/produkte/e-werk/e-werk.html
Peter White description: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/ewerk.asp
Factory manual PDF: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Downloads/Ewerkmanual.pdf

Busch und Muller Ride & Charge dynamo battery charger
http://www.bumm.de/produkte/mehr/ride-charge.html
Described by Peter White (in combination with the Ixon series of B&M lighting to charge batteries within the light): http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/b&m.asp

Dahon/Biologic ReeCharge dynamo charger
http://www.thinkbiologic.com/products/reecharge-power-pack

Kemo model 172 dynamo charger
http://www.kemo-electronic.de/en/House/Home/M172-Bicycle-charge-controller-USB-Mini-B-.php

Michael Paudler's Low Drop-loader adaptable to dynamo charging
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://fahrradzukunft.de/12/low-drop-lader/&usg=ALkJrhiy1yzv2BtXJ10qjbu5BJh076aA3w

Nokia Europe DC-4 dynamo charger
http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/power/chargers/nokia-bicycle-charger-kit

PedalPower dynamo battery charger
http://www.pedalpower.com.au/
PedalPower Plus from Peter White (with full explanaton)
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/pedalpowerplus.asp

Softhema USB dynamo charger
http://www.softhema.de/
Manual: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=Softhema&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CDQQjBAwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.softhema.de%2Fbicycle%2Fdownloads%2FSOFTHEMA-S25A_Manual-English_2011-10-01.pdf&ei=4pobT5WTO6qWiAKqltmtCA&usg=AFQjCNEoaByDiMZlJLqA95JX-JKzoejMHQ&cad=rja

SuperNova offer the Tout Terrain The Plug 2 for distribution under their name.  At this writing, their website has not been updated to reflect this, but it is listed in their 2012 PSF catalog, along with their own dynohub:
http://www.supernova-lights.com/downloads/SN_katalog2012_web_lowres.pdf

Zzing dynamo battery charger
http://www.zzing.de/index.php/en/
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zzing
http://itchy-wheels.exploder.org/images/main.php?g2_itemId=3029
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: slim on January 22, 2012, 11:23:41 am
Dan, your knowledge and enthusiasm is mind boggling.
If you haven't done so already it's time to do a web site on selecting, configuring and maintaining touring bikes.
Monetize it appropriately and in no time you can have a stable of Rohloff equipped bikes.
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: il padrone on January 22, 2012, 12:43:57 pm
 An alternative is to power those devices through use of a buffer battery.  In that case, the dyno hub charges a separate battery by various means, and it is used to directly power or recharge the device (in an on or off state) to the limit of the buffer battery's capacity.  The unloaded buffer battery is then recharged by the dynohub and made ready for use again.  Basically, the buffer battery is a relatively short-term, high-load battery and charging supply for high-draw/high-drain appliances and is simply trickle-charged by the dynohub.

Which is just what I've decided to go with, using the B&M ewerk to power up a Power Monkey Extreme (just ordered). This way I can keep the voltage/mW requirements simpler for my poor non-electrical brain, and use the wide range of plugs supplied to get the required power connectors for my few current (and any possible future) devices. A mate of mine is doing similar with good results so it should be OK.
Title: Re: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: geocycle on January 23, 2012, 11:31:15 am
Which is just what I've decided to go with, using the B&M ewerk to power up a Power Monkey Extreme (just ordered). This way I can keep the voltage/mW requirements simpler for my poor non-electrical brain, and use the wide range of plugs supplied to get the required power connectors for my few current (and any possible future) devices. A mate of mine is doing similar with good results so it should be OK.

The ewerk is good and works well.  I used it to charge my phone/GPS on the last tour.  The only issue I had was that the miniUSB connection to the phone bounced out on a regular basis and led to me bending the pin.  This is a problem specific to my set up and may be different for others.  In light of this I am now using it to charge  a powermonkey and then charging the phone when stopped for lunch etc. It also rained very heavily and I was concerned about the water tightness of the connection, whereas the powermonkey can be in the bar bag.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 23, 2012, 08:06:48 pm
Thanks, fellows (and for the kind comment, Chris!); I really appreciate the PowerMonkey and other charger reports, and am looking forward to longer-term reports as you use them at length.  ToutTerrain say they are also working on a buffer battery (a la PowerMonkey) in addition to this Extra Power in-steerer booster they allude to but have yet to describe.  Right now, I'm using the TTTP2 as a USB power port to operate individual AA/AAA battery chargers (for the GPS, SteriPen, and LED headlight) and to top off my (basic ="dumb") cell/mobile phone.  As for weight, I only have to deal with one cord, a few end-adapters, and the minimal weight of the plastic battery charger.  The PowerMonkey is heavier, but  is a bargain weight-wise because of its versatility, capacity, and outright power reserves for high-drain appliances.

I do note (and with a bit of concern) that dynohub charging doesn't provide as consistent charging as the mains -- it comes and goes as one starts and stops -- but it is regulated.  At present, any effect on battery life will be limited to the Sony-version Eneloop high-capacity AA/AAA batteries and one of the cheap eBay replacements used in my phone.  Has anyone used a PowerMonkey long enough to notice any diminution in battery life or "memory effect" in use?  I'm reassured it is a Li-Po (lithium-polymer) cell, which seems to not suffer the memory effect of other designs.  Also, with its capacity to power high-load devices, it must take quite awhile to recharge from flat using only a dynohub.  Do you top it off using the mains in motels or while eating at restaurants?  I'm really intrigued by it, especially as it would allow me to more readily use Unix netbook to update my daily log entries. They really don't get done by hand, 'cos after riding all day even I can't read the result; my hands are just too sore and cramped after 17 hours or so in the saddle on rough roads.

I just want to make sure I eventually jump the right way when going on from here.  TT's The Plug 2, plus the SON28 and head-taillight plus a good buffer battery is the better part of USD$1,000, and I don't want to buy a buffer battery that doesn't last a good long while.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 24, 2012, 08:21:02 am
For those who have asked me about other things on the horizon or in recent memory relating to generating power and charging batteries on the road...

In the "maybe coming soon, but not-quite-ready" category of other battery chargers, Powertrekk have announced their water-powered, ion-exchange fuel-cell power supply will at last be available Spring 2012. It appears to be a variation on a hydrogen fuel cell. It can charge devices either directly from the fuel cell or from the built-in rechargeable battery.  There is no indication how long the fuel packs last, or how long it will operate on one.
Details here: http://www.powertrekk.com/
FAQ here: http://www.powertrekk.com/support/  
Explanation of technology here: http://www.powertrekk.com/powertrekk/technology/
Fuller explanation by third party here: http://ktrmurali.wordpress.com/tag/powerpukk/

In a similar vein, Apple have filed two patent applications (published in the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office database 22 Dec 2011) for portable fuel cells designed to allow users to operate their devices away from mains-recharging.  The patents are broad and open to a variety of fuel-cell types. It looks like compact fuel cells are coming. How soon remains to be seen. According to Powertrekk, we'll only have to wait till Spring, which is what they said last year.

BioLite have announced their forthcoming line of battery-charging portable woodstoves: http://biolitestove.com/BioLite.html  These claim to use a thermo-electric module (possibly a Heusler alloy producing a Seebeck effect thermocouple) to convert 5000+BTU of thermal (fire) energy (heat) into 1-watt of electrical energy.  Their campstove looks possibly suitable for bike touring: http://biolitestove.com/CampStove.html  Basically, a small fire made of twigs and sticks is kindled in a metal can.  Once it is fully alight, the heat from the fire is converted to electricity, which powers a small electric fan to make the stove into a clean(er) burning mini-forge; any electricity beyond that needed by the fan is available for charging external devices.  There's some big names behind it:
Quote
The BioLite team together has over 30 years of product development experience and holds more than 30 utility patents. Previous clients include OXO, Johnson & Johnson, Hewlett Packard, Nike, Lego, Church and Dwight, Pepsi, GE, Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Motorola, and Bosch. More than 90% of our developed products have gone on to be successful in the market.
 The drawback is it appears to charge only while alight, limiting practical charging time.

As for geared dynohubs, I seldom see the Renak Enparlite mentioned ( http://renak.de/wordpress/willkommen/ ), probably because it is not very efficient compared to Shimano's and Schmidt's offerings. It is way behind, according to the CTC's Chris Juden in tests conducted at Schimidt's own facilities: http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html . It does have a couple unique features that might be nice to see in other dynohubs: It has a clutch that allows it to truly freewheel when not in use and is internally geared so the generator runs faster than the wheel, reducing low-speed handlebar vibration and eliminating low-speed flicker. Unfortunately, the internal gears have proven subject to wear and there is the poor efficiency. Pity.

The Aufa FER 2002 also has a clutch, is driven by a belt, has already come and is now nearly gone, thanks to extremely poor efficiency. It is a type known as a Speichendynamo, or "spoke dynamo". An informative article on it is here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speichendynamo, Google-translated English version here: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fde.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSpeichendynamo&act=url

A variation on the Aufa FER 2002 is the Sunup DS-series, specifically the DS1r by Taiwan's Sunup Eco (a brand-engineered version was marketed poorly by Dosun). It is also a spoke dynamo but attaches only to the left-side of a rim-braked cassette rear hub, and is unusual in having a three-phase permanent-magnet (DC output) generator; most dynohubs, are single-phase (AC output; current must be rectified to DC for LEDs).  Test results are intriguing, but unfortunately, it is not quite here yet.  It does not seem to have found a distributor or be finalized in design (it has been delayed over concerns related to voltage overprotection due to the 3-phase design), though some prototypes were released for testing and evaluation in 2011. A rear-mounted generator has some promise for generating power at camp; invert the bike, crank the pedals, and hey presto -- power on demand. I'll post a link when it is a bit further along.  It appears future marketing will come direct from Sunup under their own name.  A more refined version is promised for 2012, with more power at lower speeds.  I think this is one to watch in the next year.

For those who remember such things, Sturmey-Archer made internally-geared rear hubs with internal generators.  The 3-speed AG was an AW with a dynamo in it, and their FG was a 4-speed FW with an internal dynamo. They are now unavailable and are unsuitable to our on-tour battery-charging needs, having only 3- or 4-speeds and less efficiency than contemporary models.

Those wishing to inexpensively dabble a foot in the waters of dynamo-powered battery chargers may wish to look at the Bike2Power SpinPOWER S1, I3, and I4, the latter priced at USD$59.95 on a current sale. Also available through Amazon. It includes a sidewall generator, but most people I know discard that and use the USB power converter alone with their hub dynamo. The company site is here: http://www.bike2power.com/  I'll add this to the link collection in an earlier post, above. Usual disclaimers, as I have no financial interest in the company or experience with them.  Limited reviews of their S1 model here: http://www.amazon.com/SpinPOWER-S1-Universal-Smartphone-Bicycle/product-reviews/B0051KID2Q/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1 It would be terrific if this charger was workable for the price, as it would open up a world of possibilities for extremely reasonable cost.

American online retailer and supplier Velo-Orange have fueled persistent rumors of a clutch-type dynohub, detailed in their blog posts here: http://velo-orange.blogspot.com/2010/10/those-new-dyno-hubs.html#uds-search-results and by searching their site using "dyno hub" as a search term. Their Grand Cru model appears to be [ Edit: confirmed, it is] a Taiwanese Shutter Precision unit with bespoke branding. Apparently some early VO Grand Crus had problems due to misassembly at Shutter, but I understand Shutter soon caught the problem. See: http://www.sp-dynamo.com/spproductswitchrim.html , home page for Shutter here: http://www.sp-dynamo.com/index.html By appearance, their designs seem to be um, "inspired" by Schmidt's SON series.  Unfortunately, I have no objective efficiency data to share at present.  It appears the clutch simply adjusts the gap between the magnets and the windings, decreasing drag and vibration to virtually nil in the off state.  There is no earthing through the alu axle and no pressure-equalization to match Schmidt's design.  The _Bicycle Quarterly_ Reader's Review has an interesting discussion related to this hub and clutchless hubs in general: http://groups.google.com/group/bqrr/browse_thread/thread/892d834880ec2fcf  From what I have seen so far (and lacking objective test data), I believe Shutter's dynohubs - both clutched and extremely lightweight clutchless -- show some real promise at about half the cost of the Schmidt offerings with the same 26 poles. They have also come up with a plano-convex collimating fisheye-lensed LED headlight that looks promising in terms of output if not beam pattern and has a 9-minute standlight.  Stay tuned, I think Shutter are due to come on strong.

Best,

Dan.


Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on January 30, 2012, 05:34:40 pm
Hi All,

Tout Terrain just wrote me with more information regarding their forthcoming Extra Power attachment for their The Plug 2:
Quote
Through the PAT cable the power output of the Plug II can be optimized. This is particularly useful for users of smart phones or rechargeable batteries that want to maximize their power output on the road. For example, if you need to go 25km/ h to charge an iPhone with the Plug II you only need 18km/ h with the PAT cable. The PAT cable is sitting between the plug and the dynamo in the fork tube, so there are no other cables necessary outside.

More details and photographs should appear on their website soon.  See: http://www.en.tout-terrain.de/accessories/electric-power-supply/the-plug-ii/

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on March 15, 2012, 09:16:00 am
Hi All,

SJS Cycles now carry The Plug 2 Extra Power, marketed as the PAT cable, standing for "Power Amplification Technology":
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tout-terrain-plug-pat-power-cable-for-the-plug-ii-prod27694/
Price is £23.50 (USD$36.77 at the time this is written) alone, but only £20/USD$31.29 additional if bundled with a TTTP2 purchase. About USD$42 ppd to the western US.

Basically, it is a replacement power cable running between the dynohub and TTTP2 mounted atop the steerer. Midway (and inside the steerer), there is a screw-top capsule containing insulating gel and the needed circuitry.

Tout Terrain now describe The Plug 2 Extra power as...
Quote
The Plug II Extra Power
Through our P.A.T. (Power Amplification Technology) system, that is optionally used, the power output of the Plug II can be optimized. This is particularly useful for users of smart phones or rechargeable batteries that want to maximize their power output on the road. Concealed, the extra power module is attached in the fork tube, so there are no other cables necessary outside.
...with a user testimonial, saying...
Quote
Testimonials
User Henk T. comments the PAT technology: "Exactly as you wrote the hub (SON DELUX) now starts charging the iPhone 4 if I cycle around 18km/hr. On a three hour ride overall ride,..., and an average ride speed of around 17.5 km/hr the iPhone remained charged to exactly the starting level. So I am very impressed now with the set-up. I can only commend the excellent Tout Terrain after sales service..."
See:  http://www.en.tout-terrain.de/accessories/electric-power-supply/the-plug-ii/

Looking at the chart below (attached pic), it appears the PAT unit shifts the output curve so more power is produced at lower speed, just as one would hope. The chart is titled "Performance Curve Comparison".*

As soon as I learn a bit more about it, I'll probably install one and offer a full report.

Best,

Dan.
*[EDIT: Supernova now carry the TTTP2 with their own name sillscreened on it instead of Tout Terrain. Their version includes the PAT cable, and is described as...
Quote
Supernova The Plug II Plus ? USB power supply  

Transforms dynamo AC to exact USB spec. DC 5V, 500 mA
E?Bike compatible for 12? 48V DC with optional cable
Works with Garmin, Ipod&Iphone 3GS & 4G
Plus?Version, now with 50% improved low speed charging!
New, power?enhancing PAT?Cable included.
See: http://www.supernova-lights.com/shop/SUPERNOVA_PREISE_2011-43.pdf
SJS Cycles also carry the PAT unit alone or with the Plug2 as the Plug2 Plus. See: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/page/find/?name=the%20plug&page=1 ]
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on March 23, 2012, 04:25:55 am
Hi All,

This evening, I ordered a Tout Terrain PAT (Power-Amplification Technology) cord, also known as a Tout Terrain Extra Power for The Plug2.

I think I will splice into the existing TTTP2 wire I have already attached to the fork blade, rather than replace it entirely, but we'll see when it arrives. Because I used separate zip-ties for the computer cabling, I only have to deal with one lead, so it won't be much trouble to go either way. Just clip the zip-ties, remove the front wheel, fender, and TTTP2 cap, and swap cables. I already have a second set of piggyback connectors for the SON terminals and the light leads will simply slip on to those as they do the original TTTP2 piggyback terminals I soldered on when I first installed the unit. The PAT is essentially the same cable as the original, but with a gel- or silicon-filled capsule shielding the amplification circuitry inside a plastic screw-capped tube. It all fits in the steerer in the same way as the original lead, and shows every promise of lowering the speed at which maximum power is produced.

After considerable thought, I realize the TTTP2 is the heart of my onboard power-generating capability (along with the SON28), so it pays to maximize output there first before considering other gadgets, like solar panels and such to augment my efforts to recharge gadgets. Anything I can do to boost power at the source will only be reflected in reduced charging times and increased capability to charge or actually power higher-drain/current-draw devices, especially if crawling along dirt and gravel roads or uphill when speeds are lower than on the flat or on good roads.

On the wish list of gadgets/projects:

- A full set of custom USB adapters, as soon as I can solder them together. Needed for cell phone, electric razor, direct-power to GPS. Already have leads done for MP3 player and AA/AAA rechargers (for SteriPen water pruifier, GPS, LED headlight, LED blinky, multiband radio).
- A netbook or tablet with keyboard of some sort for in-camp journaling and light photo editing, and to connect at Internet cafes.
- A buffer battery as an extended power supply for high-draw/drain gadgets, to be topped-off by the TTTP2.
- Solar panels to augment TTTP2 charging, since the TTTP2 is good for recharging only one device. <-- It may be possible to split the lead and power two low-draw gadgets at reduced power if the PAT works as I hope. It might just be possible to power two AA/AAA cell battery chargers at once. We'll see, as it will take some calculation depending on actual output once the PAT arrives. I do think solar makes sense for an auxiliary charging system, and adds no additional drag to forward progress.
- GoPro Hero2 vidcam USB recharger.
- New Panasonic Lumix TZ-30 with direct USB charging. Till then, I'll be hacking the spare charger on my TZ-5.

Onward!

Full report when the PAT arrives and is installed.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Pavel on March 23, 2012, 07:40:39 pm
Dan ... it sounds like you are a candidate for your own travel-behind Nuclear power generating station, with all those devices!  Small towns draw less power! :)

Have you considered taking along a trailer?  If a trailer is used one could put a dyno in it and use that to power devices while the front does a bit of that along with the lights or just the lights.  Four trailers like that - and ya would be set to go! ;)

I have the ewerk but regret buying it.  As far as portability is concerned I would not recommend it because of the cabling issues.  My sore point is that it is large and unwieldily and I wish I had sprung for the better integration of the TT Plug2.  I didn't because I could not get any information from them by email.

My needs are more simple.  I have a Garmin 62s gps which I like very much and I would simply like to plug it in and have the dyno power it, rather than carry and replace batteries every 20-30 hours.  The problem is that this device is programed poorly in my opinion and one of the annoyances that makes me see red is the notification that an external power source has been found each and every single time that one increases speed over approximately five miles per hour and its evil twin, the notification that we have lost contact.  Grrrrr!  It requires, of course a press of the button to banish - for the next few seconds.  It is completely unusable as I had envisioned using it of course.  I could of course buy the $105 dollar ewerk battery and find five inches of space somewhere on the frame to really make my Thorn ugly ... but I've just given up instead and burn batteries.  :(

I'd invest in the TT Plug2 if there was a way to get what I want done, but without any overgrown batteries zip tied or glued onto my bike.  How big would a battery have to be to simply ride out the fluctuations in output for up to, say, five minutes? 

Keep us posted on further details and dyno adventures.  It is very interesting to have yours and others here experiences.

Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on March 23, 2012, 09:38:40 pm
Pavel!

I have the solution for you.
Quote
The problem is that this device is programed poorly in my opinion and one of the annoyances that makes me see red is the notification that an external power source has been found each and every single time that one increases speed over approximately five miles per hour and its evil twin, the notification that we have lost contact.  Grrrrr!  It requires, of course a press of the button to banish - for the next few seconds.
The Garmin can be put into Spanner Mode and that will keep it from thinking it is in data-transfer mode when plugged into a USB connection that is not powered by a computer. A simple switch of the software/firmware options and you're set. The correct procedure is: Go to setup, system; under interface select Garmin Spanner. It will now give you the option of connecting or powering the unit.

But...!

That proved an annoyance to me. When I wished to use it per usual, it was always in the wrong (Spanner) mode after using on "bike power". Didn't want to mess with it when I plugged it into the computer to up/download maps and waypoints.

So...!

The solution is one of these, a USB power cable intended for car-charging:
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=15429
There are cheap/fake ones available on eBay that are of good quality and wired correctly for 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of OEM Garmin units. What you want is one that will operate as the Garmin car-power unit and will keep the GPS from entering data-transfer mode when plugged-in. Look for that proviso in the eBay seller's description. One of my favorite sellers for these is based in Reno.

The defining characteristic is in the USB cable. Garmin wire theirs differently from USB standards such that the ground is relocated (at least on my Oregon 400T; you may be able to use an ordinary USB cable on your specific model;  I would have to consult my notes, which are not at hand).

Once you have the cable (again, in the case of an Oregon/Dakota series and, perhaps your 62s -- I'd have to look into it), it is a simple matter of grafting on a USB end with the proper polarity/wiring. The Garmins are high-draw units especially when the backlights are also on, and the rewiring is part of the power-threshold circuitry that determines charging vs. data transfer modes, hence the need to switch native modes in software. BTW: When you're running on internal battery power, be sure to check which source you've set in the software revision you're using, and be sure to update the software occasionally. Both will determine the accuracy of your Garmin's power meter when on internal batteries.

As it happens, running the GPS on external power will keep the backlight on all the time. To get around that: Under Setup>Display set Backlight Timeout to 15 Seconds and Battery Save to On. This will cause the screen to blank (turn off) after 15 seconds if it isn't being used. In the case "battery save" simply means the internal battery power is saved, but since it is not selected with external power; it stays on. The foregoing procedure is the override. At least on the "State" series like mine, the always-on default for the backlight is also full-bright. Do a power-interrupt at the switch to bring up the dimmer panel and do a manual override which will be good for the duration of use till power is interrupted. I can check, but the procedure will be essentially similar on yours.

On my Oregon 400T, plugging-in the unit to an external source will not charge the internal batteries. When you stop or your speed is too slow for sufficient power, the unit will switch to the internal batteries. <-- Remember this when you stop, or you will exhaust the internal batteries without realizing it. The solution is to remove the internal batteries and go solely with external power, knowing the unit will stop and tracking data will be lost without power. The foregoing is one reason why I ordered the TT PAT/ExtraPower unit for The Plug2; it has the effect of lowering the speed at which maximum power is produced, helpful for carging or directly powering high-drain/draw gadgets like smartphones and...GPS units.

So.

Put your Garmin 62s in Spanner mode and give it a try with an ordinary cable. If that doesn't power it, turn your interests to rewiring a proper car adapter to USB. Decide if you wish to keep a set of batteries inside the unit to serve as an uninterruptible power supply when stopped or going too slowly to power it directly.

Hope this helps, feel free to recontact me if you wish.

All the best,

Dan. (who is an ardent Garmin vivisectionist in his spare time )
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on March 24, 2012, 07:01:42 pm
Quote
I have the ewerk but regret buying it.
Pavel, I'm so sorry the e-werk is not meeting your needs; how disappointing! You've touched on the core issue that caused me to start some of the threads in this topic, with the goal of creating a database of practical experience to avoid a disappointing purchase (or one inappropriate to one's own needs).

In the case of the e-werk, some of our Forum members have had stellar luck with them, but may employ them in different ways or use them to successfully power other kinds of gadgets. One of their shining advantages is they are tunable to a variety of voltages and outputs. In contrast, the TTTP2 provides only USB output ~5 volts. This does tend to limit its use to either directly powering or recharging USB devices, or using it to trickle-charge a larger-capacity buffer battery that in turn powers high drain/draw gadgets. I have to admit, since buying my TTTP2, I now cast an eye at every prospective gadget's spec sheet to see if it is USB-rechargeable. I'll be picking up a wall-plug USB charger so I can continue to power my gadgets from the mains during my rare motel stays.

In all truth, there are some downsides to my charging system, though they are minor for me (perhaps more important to others). Among them:
- I do feel the drag of the SON28 when it is generating power. It is not overwhelming or near as much as any other generator I have used, but it is noticeable to me. When the dynohub is not generating power ("off") it is truly unnoticeable to me (but i have not substituted a conventional wheel to do comparative coast-down tests, either).

- The SON28 on my particular fork/wheel produces some vibration, thanks to the magnetic flux-field when power is being generated. It does help to have the skewer tight. If one had really sensitive/sore/arthritic hands, I believe it could be a problem, and has been noted by others online:
http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/08/bad-vibrations.html
http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/dynamos/Schmidt_son28/index_en.html

- Not everyone takes to the aesthetic of The Plug2 atop the steerer.

- Despite being well-shielded/sealed against water and including a silicone plug, I plan to create a little "shower cap" for the TTTP2 to prevent it getting clogged with corrosive playa dust when desert touring. I fear the socket could be a potential weak point in this regard, though there is no sign if it and I think it extremely unlikely to cause a problem in practice. The cut-off finger of a Nitrile glove works handily as a quick shower cap.

- I probably won't be able to charge my gadgets when it is very wet, 'cos the USB cords used to connect my gadgets are not waterproof at the connections. I do think the e-werk may have an advantage in this regard, with screw-thread-shielded connections.

So many of these generate-your-own-power devices are unduly expensive because they have a limited market and lack economies of scale. Part of their limited appeal is because they are so expensive and many are largely handmade. They're still stalled at the chicken-and-egg stage of development, manufacture, and marketing. It is often difficult to get hard facts, figures, and specs on them, even from the manufacturers. I have taken to writing bilingual letters of inquiry using Google Translate. Though I am sure they come across as fractured, the recipients seem to appreciate the effort and I get a high response rate. It helps to see it from the other end, as well: Some of the very nice people I met in Europe were reluctant to speak English because (they admitted) a lot of time had passed since high school English and they were afraid they'd mess up and unintentionally offend me. Once we got past that hurdle, we had a grand time and did amazingly well, thanks to a lot of hand-waving, sound effects, and drawn pictures. Apparently, I draw cows and chickens pretty well, as I never had trouble ordering a meal.

Here's a thought: If the e-werk ultimately doesn't prove fit for your needs, how about offering it on the "For Sale" board of the Forum? If you could recover a substantial part of the cost, it might help fund something more appropriate to your needs and give someone their "dream charger" at a bit of a discount.

I still dream of a large maker -- Shimano comes to mind -- who could employ existing production capacity to make a really superb charging system available at a reasonable price. Really, the circuitry involved is pretty basic. The real bugaboo is packaging and (lack of) mass production.

If there's anything I can help with, just ask. Chances are, the same unvoiced questions are on the minds of others.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: allywatt on March 24, 2012, 09:15:51 pm
Pavel,

Just to prove our mutual friend Dan correct, I am one of I suspect several potential e-werk vultures ready to swoop on any 'for sale' add that you may post in the future. Yours hopefully...

Ali
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: hdarwen on March 25, 2012, 04:59:30 pm
Dan

I'd be very interested in your view of the PAT cable. Currently have a TT Plug 2 off a SON28 and while it's good, am finding it can't charge an iPhone with the lights on at all. OK, have only tested this on flat roads around West London but my feeling is you need to be going over 30kmh to get it to start charging at all when lights are on. Am wondering if the PAT will help with this - though it will be a pain to install as i have a star nut at the top (for the Plug) and bottom (for the lights) of the steerer, and I don't really fancy removing one again to be honest. FYI, the top nut is a BMX one that allows cable routing, the bottom nut is smaller and I had to cut and file a wing off to get the cable through. I found the expander bolt just didn't fit in the steerer tube without considerable filing and the star nut just felt better.

During daytime, with no lights, I seem to be getting charging OK at somewhere between 15 and 20 kmh - it's difficult to know exactly, but is definitely below 20. Am also trying a power monkey classic as a cache battery. Not done much with this yet but have a feeling this charges at a slower speed than the iPhone and gives a bit of continuity to the charge obviously. What happens longer term if the iPhone pulls more than the SON charges the battery I am not sure.

Am also considering a Biologic Reecharge case as a combined cache/case as all the cables and adapters you need between the Plug, Battery and iPhone are a bit of a faff and don't add to any weatherproofing for sure.

Anyway, if you have any luck with the PAT, I'd be very interested. Do you know how it is secured in the steerer tube? Or does it just hang and bang about?

Thx.

Howard.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on March 25, 2012, 07:10:01 pm
Hi Howard,

Yes! I'll surely post on how the PAT works out. It should arrive within a week, and then the old wiring has to be replaced with the new and then some instrumented test rides will follow.

Quote
...my feeling is you need to be going over 30kmh to get it to start charging at all when lights are on. Am wondering if the PAT will help with this...
If TT's claims and chart are acurate, it should.

It is supposed to address the very situation you describe -- when a high-draw/high-drain gadget is connected to the Plug2, it sometimes pulls more current than can be supplied during operation at a reasonable speed. Supposedly, the PAT lowers the speed where appropriate power is produced.

Without the PAT (or if it doesn't fulfill its claimed benefits), one can still plug in and charge such thirsty gadgets, but they must be in a turned-off state or the charging can't keep up with demand. It would also help if they didn't have to be recharged from flat. A topoff will bring better results.

With or without the cord, I wouldn't expect to power and charge a high-draw device with the lights on. Whenever the power is split between lighting and charging, the charging will at least take longer. If the PAT makes it possible to get reasonable charging speeds with the lights on, so much the better!

Quote
During daytime, with no lights, I seem to be getting charging OK at somewhere between 15 and 20 kmh - it's difficult to know exactly, but is definitely below 20
This sounds about right, Howard. I'm finding the green "Charging OK" light comes on solid at about 8-12kph with no load attached. Watch the TTTP2 green LED carefully; it will blink of the gadget demands more juice than it can supply. It shows up pretty well outdoors, but may require a little hand-shade to see on a bright sunny day.

Howard, there's some basic problems when charging devices by bicycle:
- The dynohub's output increases with speed.
- To prevent damage to the device being charged, the charging adapter (The Plug2, in this case), must rectify the current from the dynohub's AC to DC.
- To prevent damage to the device being charged, the charging adapter (The Plug2, in this case), must regulate the voltage and current produced by the dynohub.
- In the case of The Plug2, the voltage and current are rectified and regulated to USB standards, which are a nominal 5vdc@500ma.

To keep things in perspective, 500milliAmps is the same as .5Amps.
To convert amps to watts, use the formula below:
P=IE (Power = Current * Voltage)
P=(0.5)E
Plug in the value of E and you will get P
Walking through it, we have .5A x 5 volts = 2.5/.5 = 1.25 watts <-- 1.25 watts isn't much. Seeing it reported as watts kinda keeps the output in perspective.

Now, here's the dirty little secret of USB devices: A USB plug or socket may look identical, but how much current is produced or drawn varies dramatically. Most people will notice their iPhones charge a lot faster when plugged into the dedicated charger than when plugged into their computer's USB socket. The iPhone has a specified range of current it will accept, and while it can charge on a computer USB port, it will charge faster on the high-output provided by its dedicated charger. The same is true of many devices, and will become ever more true as gadgets become more power-hungry. Yes, they may be able to trickle-charge on computer-standard USB power, but charge *and* run? Eh, mebbe not.

Here's the deal:

- When attached to a dynohub, The Plug2 puts out a computer standard USB 1.1 or USB 2.0 output, so let's look at that. USB 1.1 and 2.0 are the same, supplying 5v at 500mA. There is a little tolerance allowed, so the actual range in *voltage* may vary from 4.5vdc to 5vdc. The standard for USB 3 is 900mA; USB 3 allows backward compatibility, faster data transfer *and* higher power output, but at this time is fairly new, so we're pretty well stuck with USB 1.1/2.0 *output* standards for now. Now, here's the thing: Not all computers can put out the same amount of power, and laptops are often among the worst in reaching consistently high standard output. The second part of this is not all computer ports on a given machine have the same output, as the power is often split from a main supply. And, sometimes, the manufacturer includes extra USB ports for convenience sake, not because they think a person will use them all at once. I tested a couple netbooks recently, and voltage at the USB ports could drop to as low as 3.3vdc when multiple devices were plugged in. Their power supplies aren't terribly robust because they generally don't need to be. To get enough power to run things like portable external hard drives, most such gadgets include a second USB cord so the supply power can be combined. That pretty well sums up a thumbnail sketch of the supply side.

- Now, here's the consumer side: Gadgets are designed/programmed for a range of power consumption and to tolerate a range in supply power. Many require more power to charge-from-flat-dead than they do to top-off. While many will tolerate a computer-standard USB output for trickle-charging, they are really designed for use with a supplied higher-output, dedicated mains adapter. Given this, one can't really expect the same results when plugging a high-drain/draw gadget into a computer-standard USB socket, whether it be on the computer or The Plug2.

A Danneaux prognostication: The Plug3 will operate on USB 3 standards and produce 5 volts at 900mA. It's commmminnnng.... It almost has to. And yes, it will probably require buying a new Plug, since I don't think the existing circuitry can be boosted to those levels with a wiring adapter like the PAT. Time will tell.

Added to all the above, not all gadget makers adhere to USB wiring standards. Garmin is one such, and it means adapting an OEM cable or making one's own. iPhones can be problematic with some chargers for this very reason, though it seems to be compatible with The Plug2. There is sometimes the opposite case where a device can be damaged by too much power; that's why gadget manufacturers sometimes issue cautions about not using their devices with other chargers.

One has to be really mindful of the wire used in the adapter cords, as well, as that can account for considerable voltage drop due to variations in electrical resistance. Not all USB connecting-cords are equal! I can't emphasize that enough. Even a poor solder connection can make a significant difference, and most USB connector connections are sealed, so you can't readily view them (a digital volt/ohm multimeter will quickly become your friend). Get a "bad" connecting cord/adapter, and it will compromise the charging of any device plugged into the system.

If one wishes to delve more deeply into USB power standards, two really good starting points for beginners are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus
...and...
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/115251-how-usb-charging-works-or-how-to-avoid-blowing-up-your-smartphone

Quote
it will be a pain to install
Howard, I share your pain! If you can substitute the Tout Terrain expander plug at the top, it will help at that end. It won't help at the bottom, due to the butting at the bottom of the steerer -- it makes for a smaller inside diameter. Removing a star-fangled nut is not as hard as it seems. See my post here for an easier method: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3800.0 Is there another way than a SFN to mount the headlights? Could they instead clamp to the handlebars or a fork leg or perhaps mount to the fork crown?

[EDIT: How 'bout using an expanding, plastic handlebar plug? Either lathe-turn it down in diameter, or carve on it or sand it down. Saw or Dremel a kerf in the side of the expander and plug, and you should have a good substitute for the lower SFN so you can still mount your lights, but with less hassle.]

Having just gotten my wiring buttoned-up to perfection, I'm a bit reluctant to mess with it myself. Thorn (thoughtfully!) mount a plate across the bottom of the steerer and thread it in two places to mount the front fender. That plate leaves little clearance on each side for snaking connectors through (and one has to have that clearance to allow for eventual headset replacement, for example). I may use a Dean's connector (Model 2NB, P/N 1002/1225 http://www.wsdeans.com/products/plugs/micro_plug.html ) with the existing lower wiring. Boom, done. And, it would ease future service.

You asked...
Quote
Do you know how it is secured in the steerer tube? Or does it just hang and bang about?
Good question! I think it just slides into the steerer, held by the extra length of the lead wire stuffed in around it. I'm a bug about having no rattles on the bike, and this worried me about the TTTP2, but so far no noise with the extra lead wire doubled over itself in the steerer. I don't think the PAT has much mass, and will be problem-free. Yes, it will almost have to hang from The Plug's power connector. <-- That's the part that has me worried. TT say you can simply pull it apart with firm pressure, but I am worried. Mess that up and it would be an expensive venture.

This whole idea of generating one's own power when riding is still in its infancy and requires learning a bit before jumping into the deep end of the pool. Standards and requirements are changing by the day, and so much depends on which gadget you decide to charge. It is hard to approach the whole idea purely from a consumer standpoint. While almost any setup will produce a minimal charge, I have concluded one must be either a) somewhat lucky or b) resigned to becoming a Junior Engineer in order to get the best results. Use will also require some discipline and planning. I think I will have to learn to keep an eye on my batteries while on-tour, and top-off as necessary. It looks like I will have to budget about 2.4 hrs per AA battery for charging, which means about 5 hours per pair, and 10 hours for a set of four (day's riding = one complete set of batteries charged from flat). I have found batteries make a huge difference (more on that in another post) and so does adapter lead wire gauge and electrical resistance, but that is a topic for a future post as well.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Pavel on March 26, 2012, 01:17:11 pm
Pavel,

Just to prove our mutual friend Dan correct, I am one of I suspect several potential e-werk vultures ready to swoop on any 'for sale' add that you may post in the future. Yours hopefully...

Ali

Ali, I'm square on the fence about selling the E-Werk, right now.  Round one didn't go as planned and while I consider the E-werk to be excellent I don't think I will get on with the idea of hanging all those cables from the bike if I go for the seemingly necessary battery to go with it.  I'vechanged to spanner mode as Dan has suggested - thanks Dan! (but think that I had tried that before with the same results - can't remember for sure - will let everyone know when I try the E-Werk again)

I'm now in the process of thinking about having the E-Werk permanently inside one of the front bags.  That would perhaps work out very well - well, until the first time I remove the bag without disconecting the wires!  If that doesn't work out ... I'll put the E-Werk for sale here first.  :)
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: allywatt on March 26, 2012, 10:34:54 pm
Pavel,

Thanks for the update.

When I eventually get round to owning an ewerk, I think I'll probably try the same and stuff the charger and battery either in one of my front panniers or in a separate small baggie of some description.  Thinking about you taking the pannier off the bike and forgetting about the cable, there may be some way to arrange the connections and cables to either prevent you from taking the pannier off before disconnecting or arranging for them to disconnect automatically though the action of lifting the pannier - a bit like a docking manoeuvre.

Good luck with the trials.  I'm going on a 5 day tour next week and I'm going to try and keep my iphone alive with my power monkey and stealing some electricity from the odd campsite.  Although Scotland is remote and unspoilt in many respects, there are very few areas that aren't within reach of civilisation and a wall plug.  I do feel guilty that I'll be taking the dynohub for a free ride though!
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on March 26, 2012, 10:48:56 pm
Quote
...I do feel guilty that I'll be taking the dynohub for a free ride though!
No, no, no...what you do is forget the flashlight at home, so when you need to read at night, you just spin the front wheel and <presto!> you've got light. Saves weight, ecologically friendly, and you're really using that dynohub; what's not to love?  ;D

Best wishes for a great trip, Ali.

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on April 03, 2012, 04:36:29 am
Hi all,

We had a break in the weather and I had some time today, so what better to do than lay-in some baseline voltage numbers for the Tout Terrain The Plug 2?

I dismembered a USB Type "A" cable and grafted on some alligator clips so I could attach them to the multimeter placed in my Ortlieb handlebar bag. I then rode the bike with the lights switched off (no-load) and learned a few things:

1) The Plug 2 indicator light does indeed come on only when it is producing a nominal 5 volts.

2) On my sample, "a nominal 5 volts" is 4.94-4.95vdc, within the USB 2.0 standard and published standard design tolerances. For reference, two multimedia laptops here put out 5.08-5.09 volts from all four USB ports, the gaming laptop puts out 5.03-5.04 from all three unloaded USB ports, and a Quad-core i7 laptop puts out 5.0 to 5.01vdc from all unloaded ports. All laptops were running on regulated AC power through their factory power supplies (most laptops drop their USB output a bit when on battery power, depending on user software-selected power-saver settings).

3) The Plug 2 when attached to my SON28 with the lights off no-load) produces a nominal 5 volts from 4.75mph/7.6kph and up.

4) Total voltage through The Plug 2 is capped at a nominal 5 vdc maximum regardless of speed (or up to 28mph/45kph in my testing).

5) Voltage is well-established and regulated through The Plug 2. What I was not able to test today is current (amperage). The USB 2.0 standard calls for a nominal 5vdc at 500mA (or .5A). Devices are allowed to negotiate with the circuit for higher amperage depending on demand and the design and type of supply and demand circuits. To test amperage, I need to wire my meter in series with a load. Unfortunately, while I can create a dummy load or create a load using, say, rechargeable batteries of a known capacity and whatever current draw for the charging adapter, I will need to borrow another multitimeter for the tests, since mine only reads to 200mA.

I hope to get some baseline current readings before the PAT (Power Amplification Technology) cable arrives. I've been looking at the wiring, and plan to splice into the cables I've already mounted, using some Dean's R/C gold-plated micro-connectors. This way, the PAT can be easily swapped out for the original plain lead, and I can make clear A/B comparisons with and without the PAT. Plus, I don't have to restring the wires on the fork and make the tricky routing between the fender and fork crown, which is perfectly neat at present.  ;) The purpose of the PAT is to keep the same regulated voltage, but reduce the speed at which maximum current is produced. Another way to look at that is to say more current is produced at lower speed, appropriate for high-drain/draw devices like smart phones (and the recharging of high-capacity NiMH) batteries).

I do know when a load is introduced to the circuit, the green "adequate power" light takes longer to come on (comes on at a higher speed). This is true when the dynohub is also powering the lights, which place a load on the charging circuit.

I've got to make a little better camera rig for future testing; I was pretty busy noting readings, braking and shifting, while taking photographs. I went to an abandoned store parking lot so I wouldn't have to worry about running into things or being run over. Those with a sharp eye will note the Planet Bike Protege 9.0 computer's speed is higher than that shown on the Garmin 400T GPS. This is because the computer has a laggy display that holds its readings a fraction longer than the GPS when accelerating or decelerating.

Best,

Dan.

Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: rualexander on April 03, 2012, 02:48:00 pm
No, no, no...what you do is forget the flashlight at home, so when you need to read at night, you just spin the front wheel and <presto!> you've got light. Saves weight, ecologically friendly, and you're really using that dynohub; what's not to love?  ;D

Best wishes for a great trip, Ali.

Dan.
Dan,
Reading this 'bright' idea of yours has just turned a lightbulb on in my own brain, how about this :
Make up some clip on mini wind turbine blades that attach to your spokes, flip the bike upside down when parked up at the campsite at night, align the front wheel to best catch the wind, and feed a cable from the hub into the tent, and bingo!
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on April 03, 2012, 05:24:33 pm
Hi Rual!

I gave this idea an airing earlier (nylon fabric fan blades on spokes to generate electricity in desert night breezes while I slept), and actually tried it here recently. The problem is -- unless one is camped in a windy place like The Netherlands or perhaps the Scottish coast -- the Schmidt dynohub requires too much initial torque to get going. Once going, it kinds limps along, then stops. The real problem is the angle of incidence for the fan blades. Stringing the nylon fabric diagonally across the spokes is not enough angle, and the wind just kind of flattens against them. Though the ground speed needed to produce sufficient electricity isn't much, it sure looks fast when it is just the wheel spinning. Spinning the wheel by hand runs out very quickly, unless there is enough mass to create a flywheel effect. I hung weights evenly spaced 'round the wheel, and it kept spinning for quite awhile longer. Of course, the greater mass required greater inertia to get moving, so it kind of evened out.

I haven't given up entirely on the idea...it is just too tantalizing to ignore. The thing is, the bike still has to be quickly configurable for day riding (imagine the possibilities in a crosswind; yikes!  :o ), but ah, just imagine going to sleep with flat batteries and awakening to find the charged! Yes, brilliant.

There was a young man in Africa I read about last year who provided (extremely limited...it amounted to one small light bulb being lit) electricity to his village by mounting a bicycle wheel in a fork and placing it atop a homemade tower. The generator was an old, poor-quality sidewall generator rubbing on the tire. When I read about it, I kept thinking, "Hmm. What would happen if he had a SON28 and some good LED lighting and a Plug2?".

Keep those ideas coming!

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on April 07, 2012, 07:00:39 pm
Hi All,

The Plug 2 arrived in the mail, and the attached photo shows some details.

Basically, it is 3ft/.91m of wire that loops into a small, capped plastic tube filled with blue epoxy, encasing some electrical circuitry. Despite the primitive appearance, this is a proven method for weatherproofing small circuits, and one I successfully employed years ago when I made my own 6v/3w regulators for unregulated sidewall and BB dynamos used with incandescent bulbs. TT thoughtfully stripped the insulation from the ends, so it is ready for soldering or crimping to terminals for attachment to the dynamo. The package includes no directions, but it would be hard to go wrong: One end attaches to The Plug2, while the other attaches to the dynamo.

The length is just about perfect to attach to my SON28 dynohub as-is with my uncut steerer, but I plan to instead cut the existing lead and splice in some Dean's gold-plated micro-connectors, making the lot deparable. That will allow me to swap leads between the PAT and the original if I wish, keeps the existing fork lead installation intact, and allows for quick and easy future headset maintenance. As noted, Thorn welds a plate across the bottom of the steerer for convenient fender (mudguard) mounting. This leaves a small opening at each site that is not large enough to pass the PAT. Best to allow for future service now to make future  bearing or headset replacement that much easier.

Given the length of doubled-over lead that will be in the steerer along with the PAT, I don't think rattles will be a problem. I won't tolerate rattles, so if they prove to be a problem, I will insert a small strip of Evazote foam in the steerer to prevent movement and noise. The reason for leaving the lead long is to allow sufficient slack to attach and remove The Plug2 lead.

I'll try to get some photos of the existing installation as it comes apart, and of the new one as I install it. My only qualm involves detaching the original Plug2 micro-Molex style connector. I think it is a 2mm pitch Micro-Lok, but the pierced wire connections look like they wouldn't take much tugging. TT say it removes with a simple, firm pull of the connector, but I've had the retention tangs on similar connectors fracture in the past, so I feel some trepidation (the mating half is part of The Plug2 and irreplaceable as far as I can see so failure there would be Expensive). I may leave the original lead and connector intact on The Plug 2, and simply go with splicing the lead. I'll see how it looks when I open it up again.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Pavel on April 22, 2012, 08:51:06 pm
excellent and informative thread.  Keep the details comming!
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on April 22, 2012, 10:35:11 pm
Thanks for the encouragement, Pavel; much appreciated!

I had planned to install and test the Tout Terrain The Plug2 Power Amplification Technology Extra Power (TTTP2PATEP!) cord this weekend, but got off on a bicycling-vidcam tangent. Went with a brand-new-to-market Samsung HMX-W300. Did.not.work. in a bicycle application and the software is extremely buggy. Despite using computers far exceeding the minimum specs for editing and playback, video results are terrible, with many artifacts, distorted video, frequent video mosaics, green-screening, poor audio syncing, and undocumented automatic file splitting every 15:59:00. Definitely not a good buy at this point, despite being rechargeable on-bike using The Plug2 or similar means. Battery life is atrocious and the battery is embedded (not user replaceable), so once it goes flat...no camera till it is recharged. The sorry little pamphlet/manual indicates waterproofness is only assured so long as all gasketed door seals are replaced annually...parts that do not appear in Samsung's inventory. Without a doubt my example is one of the least-developed products I have tested in the last decade or so. It feels as if it was released to market very prematurely. Mac users take note: The embedded software is not Mac-compatible, and completed files are only intermittently compatible with any media player (WMP, VLC, Brasero); sometimes they sorta-kind work with freezing and artifacts, other times...not at all.

Not a good deal. The one good thing out of it all is my vidcam clamp-mount for the Thorn Low-Loader Mark V pannier racks. That worked like a champ, so the test was worth it.

Back to pushing the on-bike charging envelope this coming week.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on May 16, 2012, 11:34:05 pm
Hi All!

Getting started on my last two USB charging adapters...one for the phone (critical) and the other for my electric shaver (very much less so, but still nice; it is good for two weeks' use once fully charged).

The nice thing about the homemade adapters is one only has to deal with two conductors and no shrouding is needed, as the cables aren't carrying any data streams that could be corrupted by interference. Just a little tedious to dig through the outer insulation and shielding to get to the very small-gauge wires inside. I am keeping all my adapters as short as possible, since the main power lead from the Tour Terrain The Plug 2 is a retractable-reel USB Type A, M-F pair. Note to others looking at retractable reels, use care; a poor-quality choice here will adversely affect the efficiency of every device charged...some units I tested had such high internal resistance due to poor solder connections and partially broken wires, they accounted for a 63% loss between The Plug 2 and the device being charged, leading to extended charging times and shortened battery life.

More updates as I get my gadgets complete. So far, I'm looking to charge:

- Panasonic Lumix TZ-5 digital camera (separate USB charger from China that is really clever)
- GoPro Hero2 video camera w/video back (in-cam USB charging via cord to TTTP2)
- Mini-vidcam with flash storage (in-cam USB charging of embedded battery via cord to TTTP2)
- Panasonic electric shaver (in-shaver USB charging of embedded battery via cord to TTTP2)
- MP3 player (in-player USB charging of embedded battery via cord to TTTP2)
- AA/AAA high-capacity, charge-holding (Eneloop/Sony) batteries via Eneloop "smart" USB charger for:
   -GPS (AAx2)
   -SteriPen water purifier (AAx4)
   -LED headlight (AAAx3)
   -LED bike blinkies (AAx2/per)
   -AM/FM/Weather radio (AAx1)
- Direct-power of Garmin Oregon 400T GPS for unlimited real-time tracking while moving; default to internal battery power when stopped thanks to Garmin Spanner settings.
- (eventually) a buffer battery for powering high-draw/drain items like a netbook

I have also picked up three 30mm-square Tech&Go 5.5VDC/1A output AC adapters with retractable plugs for quick-charging three items simultaneously in a motel room, and a similar miniature Tech&Go 12VDC->5.5VDC/1A auto adapter so I can top-off the phone or whatever as needed from a car, providing I could find a friendly driver who would let me. Belt-and-suspenders backup for quick topoffs.

I deliberately decided not to go with a 3- or 4-outlet AC->DC USB charger because multiple-outlet chargers split their 1A output between all the devices being charged, leading to longer charge times. Discrete, individual units maintain their full 1A output and charging time is less overall. Allows for greater flexibility in motel outlets shared with a coffeemaker of microwave, as two chargers can be stacked at one outlet or split to allow for another appliance in the same outlet pair. I'll also be taking a little adapter that screws into a light socket and provides an outlet from any room light source with a replaceable bulb.

Being able to recharge on-bike will greatly reduce the weight/bulk of spare batteries, though I intend to take at least one extra set pre-charged in the event I either have a stayover or don't make the expected time/distance needed to charge batteries. For example, the shaver requires 5.7VDC/1A to charge fully in an hour off the mains. Via the TTTP2's 4.98VDC/0.5A, I can expect it to take double that time -- two hours -- to get a full charge. Similarly, the 5-minute quick-charge for a single shave will be extended to 10-minutes of actual riding. Having 1A in reserve whenever I am at an AC outlet will let me bring everything up to full charge more quickly than on the bike, and with three cube chargers, I can do it three at a time.

More pics and another entry when the adapters are complete.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: keleher on September 13, 2012, 12:16:37 pm
Danneau,

Any word on how the Plug II + PAT is working?  I'm guessing, since this thread has lain fallow for six months, that not all is positive.

I have the SON28 on my nomad, and have used both the biologic recharge and the pedalpower+, neither working very well. The first eventually was stolen, and the latter cable got trashed in a slight mishap. I've been waiting to see how the plug turns out to jump back in. Very nice form factor. Also waiting, of course, to see how it interacts with the iphone 5, which I will be ordering tomorrow morning :-).

Thanks,
pete
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: jags on September 13, 2012, 02:50:46 pm
Dan is there a video i can watch  on how to install the plug start to fnish
thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on September 13, 2012, 04:45:57 pm
Hi Pete, Hi jags!

Pete, I've had no trouble at all with the Tout Terrain The Plug 2. The reason the thread has lain fallow is because there were no problems, and no news is good news, thank goodness!

At the time I purchased The Plug 2, the "ExtraPower" (PAT or Power Amplification Cable) was rumored but had not yet hit the market; I purchased it separately later. Now, the lot is available as a bundle if desired. On a test installation, the PAT worked fine, but rather than just soldering or crimping the wires together, I decided to go with a different, modular wiring scheme tht would make future fork removal/headset service easier, and had to wait for the connectors to arrive. By the time they did, other matters had taken my attention and I did not get the PAT fully (re)installed as I would have wished -- the PAT went back on my desk and The Plug 2 remained in place on the bike, working as before.

The Plug 2 continued to work brilliantly. It was reliable and produced the required nominal USB voltage with no problem and recharged my (dumb)phone, my MP3 player, my AA and AAA cells in their charging adapter, my camera batteries (via an eBay universal camera battery adapter), and my electric shaver.

I removed the The Plug 2 from Sherpa and have it here on my desk, awaiting installation on the Nomad. I have been waiting to confirm the handlebar height and Rohloff shifter position and installation of my cross-top interrupter brake levers and handlebar padding before installing it, as the fork may need to be partially removed to shift spacers and it is more awkward to do so when The Plug 2 and related pieces are in place. I intend to install it on the Nomad as soon as possible. I just need to order new taillight wire and connectors and the new bracket needed to mount the headlight on the Nomad.

All's well.

jags, I don't know of an instructional video that shows how to install The Plug2 from start to finish, but I can make one when I reinstall it on the Nomad. It really is easy, and a video isn't really even necessary.  Here's the steps:

If one were to install only a headlight and taillight on a bike with a dynohub, the wiring is simplicity itself: Just crimp a connector on each of the two headlight leads and plug them onto the dynohub leads. The taillight wire plugs into the headlight, and you're done.

Once a light is installed, the only extra work with The Plug 2 is to crimp a couple piggyback spade connectors onto the ends of the two Plug wires. Slide those onto the dynohub and attach the light connectors onto the piggyback at the hub. Lead The Plug wires up the steerer, plug the end into The Plug, secure the cap as you would any other, and you're done.

The PAT is also easy -- it just goes between the dynohub and The Plug and stuffs into the steerer. The fit is tight enough with the long included cord folded over to prevent any annoying rattles.

Pete, I'm sorry to hear your biologic recharge was stolen, and the pedalpower+ cable got trashed. I've no complaints about The Plug so far, and chose it because it was such a compact, fully-realized solution and leaves no wires hanging and it simply bolts in place. The only drawback I would point out is it produces the same voltage and current as an average computer USB port (for compatibility). Many of today's newer devices are pretty power-hungry, and are designed to work primarily with 1.0A chargers for a speedy recharge. Recharging these devices from a 0.5A USB port (like on your computer or The Plug2) will double charging time compared to a mains charger with 1.0A output, so keep that in mind.

I can't predict how The Plug might work with the new iPhone 5, but I am hopeful for you, Pete. It has a larger screen and some other advancements that should make it a wonderful smartphone.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: keleher on September 14, 2012, 03:46:44 pm
Sounds great. I just order the Plug II Plus from SJS. I expect it to charge the iphone 5, as electrically it differs little from the iphone 4. Even if not, I expect to use one of my trent batteries as a buffer on tour. No sense in waiting another year for a compatible update when the battery approach works fine.

A few months ago, I did a week-long tour w/ a friend who had the Plug II, but not the PAT. Still worked brilliantly for all his (admittedly low-tech) toys. Even charged up my dinotte 300R a bit. I've been lusting over it eve since.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on September 14, 2012, 04:09:12 pm
Hi Pete,

I think you'll be pleased with the Plug 2 Plus...it certainly is a clean installation and looks as close to "factory original" as possible on a bicycle.

There are two suggestions I can offer on installation:

1) If your star-fangled nut "petals" aren't aligned properly, it can be a struggle to get the wires through. I decided instead to go with the Tout Terrain removable nut. If you go this route as well (they're available stateside from Peter White Cycles), I've posted a very short visual tutorial on quickly and easily removing the original star-fangled nut:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3800.0

2) Be sure to gently test-fit The Plug 2 top cap with the connector and lead attached. With the wire plugged in, there is a bit less clearance than with the top-cap alone, and you may need to fit a thin spacer to prevent the connector from being crushed when tightening the top bolt.

Hope this helps everything go smoothly for you; installation should be a breeze otherwise.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: keleher on September 15, 2012, 02:09:01 am
Thanks, I'll let you know how it goes.

Note that both the biologic and the pedalpower "worked". On a flat century ride I used the recharge to keep a GPS track, and to dynamically show me the map (oriented the direction I was going, so it constantly swiveled) the whole time, and I finished the ride w/ the phone at 97%.

However, I needed to be at a good speed for it to work, something like 12 mph (19.3 kph), and I got tired of all the wires. I wouldn't have replaced it if it hadn't had been stolen, but given the theft.....

Not sure which of my new toys I'm anticipating the most!
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on September 15, 2012, 05:02:25 am
Quote
Not sure which of my new toys I'm anticipating the most!

 :D I know the feeling, Pete! I'm always like a kid at Christmas, awaiting Santa Claus (and put out a plate of cookies and a glass of milk, hoping it will help speed delivery). Planes and trucks are *never* as slow as when you're waiting for something electronic or bicycle-related!

I found my Tout Terrain the Plug 2 (sans PAT) green "ready" LED was coming on as low as 8mph or so, which was really nice. It also charged my little MP3 player very nicely at that speed. I did find it took a bit longer to come on when I had my electric shaver plugged-in for charging...about 9mph, so 1mph higher speed. On my trials with the PAT, I found the green ready light came on almost immediately when starting from a stop, and the MP3 player was charging nicely at 4.2mph.

Hopefully, this will bode well for you, but remember...it only charges at a nominal 5VDC and 0.5A...and so it will take about two times longer when used with devices one usually charges from a 1.0A USB wall plug. Since most of my devices at present are low-draw and designed for 5VDC/0.5A charging, I find they recharge just as fast as they do from their dedicated chargers or when plugged into my computer USB ports. I made my own pigtail adapter from a spare charger I had for the shaver. After checking the voltage and current requirements for it, I found Panasonic had made it USB compatible without providing a plug.  The adapter fills that need, and saves having to carry a fairly large dedicated wall transformer. I usually carry three little 1"x1"x1" 5VDC/1.0A USB wall adapters so I can quickly recharge anything that is flat when I get to a motel. I also carry a lightbulb-to-wall-plug adapter in case there aren't as many free wall outlets as I need.

Really looking forward to hearing how all this works for you, Pete. Best wishes on all this; hopefully my good experiences will also soon be yours!

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: simonthebum on October 16, 2012, 09:20:53 pm
Hi Danneaux,

I have the same system as you and the green light on the plug 2+, when under load, goes on for a few seconds then off for a few seconds no matter how fast I am going. Is this normal or do I have some kind of problem?

With no load it stays on from a fairly slow speed as you describe.

Any advice you may have would be very helpful.

Cheers Simon
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on October 16, 2012, 10:57:33 pm
Hi Simon!

Welcome to the Forum; nice to have you aboard!

You asked...
Quote
the green light on the plug 2+, when under load, goes on for a few seconds then off for a few seconds no matter how fast I am going. Is this normal or do I have some kind of problem?
You also mentioned...
Quote
With no load it stays on from a fairly slow speed as you describe.

Simon, you've done a great job describing the problem. Cutting to the chase, it sounds like your TTTP2 is behaving normally, but your connected device is drawing too much power. Read on for a fuller explanation and some suggestions on how to overcome the problem...

Yes, under no load, the TTTP2 should come on with a solid green light from a low speed. This means it is operating normally, there are no breaks in the wires, and it is producing a nominal 5vdc +/- 0.2vdc and is ready for charging. This makes me think your unit is operating properly.

However, the blinking green light under load indicates the device being charged has power requirements that exceed what the TTTP2 can produce. More and more devices (particularly smartphones and tablets) will charge from USB 5vdc/0.5A power (when the device is off, and charging will take longer), but draw far more than that when operating. Recent devices will charge in about half the time when powered by a 5vdc/1.0A wall charger...and take twice as long when charging from a 0.5A USB-standard computer port (same as provided by TTTP2). I suspect this is your root problem, and the TTTP2 just cannot produce the power needed to actually operate your device. If this is the case, you can still charge your device if it is powered off, then after it is charged sufficiently, you can turn it on and operate it from its internal battery when and as needed. Some smartphones take a *lot* of juice to operate.

Overall, there's a range of causes and solutions, and I'll list them below.
Some cost nothing, others are more expensive...

1) All these bicycle-mounted charging devices are out in the weather, and so are subject to corrosion. Anything that increases the electrical resistance of the connections can reduce the capacity of the charging unit, so check for any frayed wires, dirty connections, or surface rust. Along those lines...

a) Very light surface rust can form in/on the USB port; a quick swab with 90%+ isotropyl alcohol should remove it and leave a better connection.

b) Though I don't recommend it at the USB port (it is messy and can transfer to clothes), I highly recommend use of a high-dialectric silicone grease at the hub connections at at the cord-to-TTTP2 head cap terminal connection. This greatly reduces the possibility of corrosion, and makes disconnecting the hub leads a breeze.

2) If you have a voltmeter, it can be helpful to check if the TTTP2 is actually producing the proper voltage at the USB port. When testing, wires 1 and 4 (left to right, looking at the USB port) are the ones that provide power.

3) For maximum charging, the TTT2 (like other such devices) really should be used alone, meaning when your lights are *not* also running. Yes, the power draw for LED lighting is minimal, but if you have a high-draw/high-drain device connected, available power can be marginal, and this could explain why you are getting an overdraw/intermittent power indication under load. If the lights have been on while charging, try turning them off and then check the behavior of the green light.

4) If your device does draw too much power for the TTTP2 to charge reliably, then there are a number of solutions...

a) Ride faster. I'm not being facetious; because the output of the dynohub increases with speed (they are unregulated), the power produced at low speed may be sufficient under no- or low-load conditions but inadequate for high-draw/high-drain devices. Try connecting your device and then riding along at, say, 15mph/24kph. This can often solve the problem...except it can also be a speed higher than you wish to maintain.

b) If this proves to be the case, then you will need to consider adding the Tout Terrain PAT (Power Amplification Technology, or "ExtraPower") cable. This does not increase the actual voltage produced by the TTTP2, but it does lower the speed at which maximum power is produced. The order would be dynohub > PAT > TTTP2 > USB cable > charged device.

c) Another solution, either with or without the PAT is to use your device with a buffer battery. The order then would be:
dynohub > TTTP2 > USB cable > buffer battery > USB cable > charged device. The idea here is the TTTP2 can trickle-charge the buffer battery, which can supply either greater voltage, greater current, or both to the device being charged...more than the TTTP2 could produce on its own. Of course if you power your high-draw/high-drain device all the time, the buffer battery will eventually run down, but in practice, what happens is the buffer battery is charged continuously, then is drawn-down only as the device being charged is used. Some buffer batteries can be pre-charged from the mains before use or topped off periodically from a household electrical outlet, so you start out ahead of the game. High-drain appliances like laptops/netbooks/tablets intended for use in camp benefit from a buffer battery that can be trickle-charged with a day's riding; the battery then powers them in the evening and the cycle starts anew the next day.

A buffer battery also provides an uninterrupted, continuous flow of power, so sensitive devices like GPS units and cellphones done's enter hibernation mode when you stop at an intersection and the dynohub momentarily stops producing power. Without a buffer battery, you risk losing data/tracking/satellite acquisition with a GPS or you cellphone goes to sleep. In either case, having to restart them manually can be an annoyance, so the buffer battery helps there as well as helping supply an adequate amount of voltage and/or current to the device being charged or powered.

As a final check, try charging your device with a different USB cable. These things vary widely in how well assembled, and the soldered connections can be pretty iffy, showing evidence of cold or disturbed joins, which greatly affect electrical resistance. Similarly, check your dynohub connectors to make sure they're in good shape and routed properly. I always solder mine to the wires, using the crimp tabs to secure the insulation as is proper to relieve strain on the wire strands. I then cover the spade terminals with one or two layers of heat-shrink tubing to provide a good electrical insulator and protect the connection from weather. I've seen problems occur when the dynohub electrical connection terminals are set vertically. A better way is to set them about 7 or 8 o'clock when viewed from the right side of the bike, and route the wires so the spade connectors approach from below. This forms a "drip loop" to prevent water from running down the wired and directly into the connection. The same practice applies at home when routing electrical transmission or telephone lines outdoors...you want the water to drip off, rather than run right into the terminal connection.

A couple of remarks and additions before wrapping this up:
1) Tout Terrain have recently revised their installation and operating manual. The latest version is available as a PDF here:
http://www.en.tout-terrain.de/fileadmin/media/pdf/deutsch/dokumentation/bedienungsanleitungen/Anleitung_tout_terrain_theplug_06_2012_web.pdf

2) The "Plug 2 Plus" referred to on the Tout Terrain website is the The Plug 2 with the addition of the PAT cable.

3) According to the chart on the Tout Terrain website (and my own experience), The Plug produces a full 5vdc@.5A at about 18.75kph/11.65mph. The Plug Plus (The Plug with the PAT) produces the full  5vdc@.5A at about 13.75kph/8.54mph.

I hope this helps. If you're still having problems after trying the above solutions, give a shout and I'll see what I can do.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on October 17, 2012, 06:32:11 am
Great thoughts Dan.
Any advice on type / brand of buffer battery to consider?
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on October 17, 2012, 09:05:30 am
Quote
Any advice on type / brand of buffer battery to consider?
Hi Matt!

good question! I'd have to know the kind of device one was powering in order to make a recommendation, as the buffer battery very much depends on what you're trying to power.

There's a whole range of buffer batteries that will do, depending. If all one needs is uninterrupted power to keep a GPS or smartphone going while stopped at a traffic light, then the B&M e-werks can be had pretty reasonably. It mounts to your frame or can be simply placed in a handlebar bag and is pretty small and fairly light. It is even possible to make a buffer battery of your own, using NiMH AA cells in a holder with a few diodes and place that inline between the charger and the phone to take over power duties during bried outages/stoppages. The key thing is to keep the voltage above the hibernation threshold for an operating device. That way, it will keep goig and you won't lose data or have the hassle of restarting it manually after every stop.

In the middle range, if you need a high-demand appliance to keep running throughout the day and it's power requirements exceed what the bike charger can supply directly, you'll have to use a higher-capacity buffer battery. You'd need one you could trickle charge and still had enough reserve capacity for all-day or multi-day operation. The size/model/brand would depend on the device being charged.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you're seeking to charge something like an iPad, netbook, or laptop, then you'd need a considerably larger battery, stored in your panniers. Typically, those are best thought of as "range-extenders" for when you use your high-draw/high-drain devices in camp, either recharging the device's internal battery or boosting its run time. The nice thing about a large buffer battery like this is you can pre-charge it from the mains, then plug-in your other, smaller devices and recharge them in camp. If you need to, you can trickle-charge it as you ride along, but it could easily take a couple days' riding to charge it fully from flat. It is nice to be able to charge AA cells, GPS, MP3 player, etc, without riding at the time...or waiting till the next day to pedal juice into them, a big buffer battery can be really useful.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: StuntPilot on October 17, 2012, 10:13:31 am
Matt - I have been looking for an ideal buffer battery too. I keep coming back to the PowerMonkey Extreme ...

https://powertraveller.com/iwantsome/primatepower/powermonkeyextreme/ (https://powertraveller.com/iwantsome/primatepower/powermonkeyextreme/)

Reasons that it continues to stand out for me are:

- Large capacity (9000mAh)
- Shockproof and waterproof
- Can be charged from The Plug II while two devices are charged from the battery (1 USB & 1 DC port suitable for tablet/iPad computer)
- High efficiency (17%) rugged solar panel to continue charging while you are stationary
- Continues to receive good reviews in low light/cloudy conditions (the only light conditions in the UK for most of this Summer!)
- Received industry awards
- After sales service has received some good reviews from purchasers

I also like the Freeloader Pro Globetrotter ...

http://www.solartechnology.co.uk/shop/globetrotter-pro.htm (http://www.solartechnology.co.uk/shop/globetrotter-pro.htm)

I have had it for some years for walking and it works well. Much smaller capacity (1600 mAh) hence the requirement for a larger cache battery. I would still take it on tour to charge camera and digital SLR camera batteries as it has a 9.5 v setting and caddy to do so.

For me its seems the PowerMonkey Extreme will fit the bill. Its expensive at £120.00 but that includes the solar panel, lots of adapter bits etc and a sturdy case. I must admit that the price is making me research even more for an alternative before splashing out.

Dan is right about the B&M. This is a good option for various devices with differing voltage requirements. It has a 1400 mAh capacity. I prefer a larger capacity to keep me going on non-cycling days.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: simonthebum on October 19, 2012, 07:55:44 pm
Hi Danneaux,

Thanks for your very helpful reply. I think I should have put a bit more detail in my question to save you a lot of typing.

I am trying to charge 2 AA batteries using a Plug 2 plus. I have tried 2 different chargers and lots of batteries. Everything is new and has been tested at 40kph. The chargers and batteries work fine from a PC usb. I have no lights.

A possible solution. :)

I spoke to Josh at SJS today and he said that there had been a few Plug 2 plus's returned with problems and he no longer recommended them. He advised to return it and they would replace it with a Plug 2 (Reliable and recommended) and refund the difference.

As a non PAT cable is supplied with the Plus I tried and it worked fine. So it would appear I have a faulty PAT cable.

I'll speak to Josh Monday and see if I can return just the PAT for refund and let you know how I get on.

Cheers Simon
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: simonthebum on October 23, 2012, 08:37:38 pm
Hi Danneaux,

Spoke to Jamie at SJS about my problem PAT cable and he says Tout Terrain are aware of the issue and are working on a fix.

So I am returning my PAT cable for a refund and going to see if Tout Terrain can come up with some thing more reliable.

Yours still working OK?

Cheers Simon
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on October 23, 2012, 09:49:37 pm
Hi Simon,

So far so good when my TT PAT was briefly on Sherpa ( installed it near the end of my time with the bike); I have yet to install it on the Nomad. I'll be keeping a weather eye on it, and greatly appreciate your passing the word along to me and others; thanks!  I feel sure Tout Terrain will come up with a solution, and quickly.

Please keep us updated if you hear any of new developments, and I will do the same.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: grivai on December 13, 2012, 11:34:08 pm

I also like the Freeloader Pro Globetrotter ...

http://www.solartechnology.co.uk/shop/globetrotter-pro.htm (http://www.solartechnology.co.uk/shop/globetrotter-pro.htm)

I have had it for some years for walking and it works well. Much smaller capacity (1600 mAh) hence the requirement for a larger cache battery. I would still take it on tour to charge camera and digital SLR camera batteries as it has a 9.5 v setting and caddy to do so.

....I just purchased the PowerMonkey extreme - but now have concerns that SLR batteries are the one thing that may not be chargeable on tour...do you know of any options/possibilities aside from using the Globetrotter?...don't really want to have to purchase another charger/battery setup :o

PS. Brilliant thread! I'll be taking ownership of the SON 28 and TTP2+ soon....I hope the faults they have had don't plague me as well....

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on December 14, 2012, 03:09:45 am
Quote
...now have concerns that SLR batteries are the one thing that may not be chargeable on tour...do you know of any options/possibilities aside from using the Globetrotter?...don't really want to have to purchase another charger/battery setup...
Hi Ivan, and welcome to the Forum!

<nods> Yes, charging DSLR or other camera batteries with a bicycle-based charger is particularly problematic due to the wide range of battery voltages and charging currents involved. I'm not sure how deeply you want to go into finding or building solutions, but I can give a quick summary by saying you definitely don't want to overcharge your batteries, yet -- particularly with Li-ion batteries, there is a certain threshold that has to be exceeded for the battery to accept a charge. At the same time, Li-ion batteries don't really like to be trickle-charged. It can take a lot of research and effort to find a solution in some cases.

In general, when it comes to charging camera batteries, you'll find eBay is your friend, especially when it comes to finding unusual charging solutions from China. I went this route to recharge the Li-ion batteries used in my Panasonic TZ-5 travel zoom camera. What I found looks a bit like a spring-loaded clothes pin that clamps onto the battery. At one end, a pair of spring-loaded pins contact the battery terminals, and the other end terminates in a foldable USB male plug (see attached composite pic). I paid USD$2.99 for mine, postpaid from Hong Kong. It arrived 11 days after ordering.

eBay also sells a number of camera-specific wall/mains chargers that also will work from a 12-volt DC car lighter socket or have a plug-in USB connection. That last option is the one to look for, 'cos it means the charger not only works with your camera's battery, but with USB charging as well. These things are really reasonable...usually around USD$8-12 complete.

There are other options, as well, including modifying an OEM charger, also acquired from eBay at lesser cost and risk so you can preserve your original. In many case, if it is clear the mains voltage is reduced to somewhere around 4.5-5.5VDC, it is possible to splice into the circuit with a USB extension cable, and call it done. In other cases, if the factory adapter's output is close to USB, you can simply buy a spare, along with a USB extension, cut off the unneeded ends, and splice them together (typically only two power wires need connecting; there's a couple little tricks, but it is easy and much of the internal shielding is unneeded for charging applications as the cable won't be carrying data signals). I did something like this to charge my Panasonic electric shaver, mating the OEM adapter end with a standard USB connection. It works wonderfully, and charges at the same rate plugged into the bike as it did when powered by the mains through the supplied adapter. The shaver can now be charged by plugging into a computer or a mains-powered AC-to-USB DC adapter, about an inch square and taking up little space in my panniers. I still have the original, unaltered mains charger as well.

There's another option as well, if your camera offers in-body battery charging, perhaps via an external power jack under a side panel. If the camera can be powered by a Mains adapter, chances are there's a user-selectable option that will allow the battery to be charged in-camera...and often with USB-levels of voltage and current; it's worth checking your owner's manual. It is generally useless to contact the manufacturer with a query, as they always default to recommending their devices *only* be used with OEM chargers, adapters, and even cords.

A good first step toward rigging a camera battery charger is to check the label on the back of your OEM wall charger and in your owner's manual (either paper or online at the manufacturer's website). These will list the charging voltage as well as the charging current (typically greater than the device's operating current), which is really important, as batteries and devices can be as readily damaged by excessive current as by over-voltage. This is something that is causing increasing confusion among users as manufacturers (Apple leading the pack) include computer-based and quick-charging mains options. Standard for computer USB is a nominal 5VDC @.5A. Mains-powered USB "quick-chargers" can output as much as 1.0-1.5A, which is fine so long as the device's charging circuitry allows for it. If your device is compatible, quick-charging can take half the time (at twice the current). If your device is incompatible...it may become a brick as something blows internally.

This is why computer-standard USB chargers are probably the safest bet for most people...they're automatically saved from having their devices fried by overvoltage/excessive current. Tout Terrain went this route for a reason, even though devices that *might* charge faster...won't do so as quickly. Better that than burning-out a critical piece of equipment (and many here would argue their MP3 players are um, "Mission Critical"; we all have our priorities). B&M's e-Werk is really a nice little charger when closely examined, and for what it does -- ably provide a user-selectible range of voltages and currents. It also comes with a disclaimer, stating very clearly that B&M are not responsible if you get the settings wrong (and they do a good job of urging owners to exercise due diligence in research their device-specific needs). The thing is...people get stoopid occasionally while on-tour (as in daily life but moreso). They get tired, wet, hungry, frustrated, scared, and distracted. It is usually on just those occasions they plug their exhausted batteries into the e-Werk and get a further surprise by frying them. I've heard from three people in the last 10 days who damaged their phones or GPS units 'cos they forgot and plugged them in with the setting set for higher demand-draw appliances and gadgets. Oops.

Suddenly, waiting a little longer to get things charged looks really attractive if it also comes with a failsafe. Of course, the same thing can be accomplished by setting the e-Werk to standard 5.0VDC @0.5A and just leaving it there, as do the many people I know who use them. For my needs, I can pretty well count on four hours' actual riding time being more than sufficient to charge anything I will have with me. Much less time is required if I don't wait till the battery is completely depleted. I try to charge when there is about 30%-40% left in the battery.

As an aside...I've tried very hard to either buy or convert every one of my carry-along gadgets to USB power or recharging. This means making a purchase decision if the device has an embedded (non-replaceable) battery, or using an intermediary battery charger if the device uses standard AA/AAA batteries. I also try very hard to choose devices that have replaceable batteries so I can simply swap in a spare if I am not going to be riding or need a device working more quickly than a battery can be charged. Eneloop AA/AAA batteries are terrific for this, and I typically carry one spare set for each type that is in-use and don't mind robbing batteries from my radio to power my LED blinky, for example; it means I can carry fewer spares to get me by if charging is not quick enough.

Keep in mind, too, that a high-capacity rechargeable battery might last longer in use...but it will also take longer (sometimes *much* longer) to charge. In my case, I "costed-out" the difference by device. On some, the high-capacity batteries made sense. For others, not so much...or I removed them for top-off more frequently than necessary to keep them up to snuff and so avoid a deep dischage and lengthy recharge-from-flat.

Remember, if your present PowerMonkey Extreme setup allows recharging through one channel at USB-standard rates and voltages, so all the above comments on USB charging should apply to you as well. The other channel supplies 5VDC@2.1A for charging iPads and other tablets. Just keep that difference in mind and use the ports appropriately for what you wish to charge at the moment; some of y above e-Werk cautions might apply.

Congratulations on the SON28 and TTTP2+; I think you'll have good luck, and if you don't, the warranty will come in handy and save you. It's all good!

Best,

Dan. (...who is keeping up with current affairs)
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Andybg on December 14, 2012, 09:34:07 am
Just a suggestion for a good touring camera. I have a Canon Powershot Sx20is and it is a fairly low cost / rugged camera which has the advantages for on tour of taking very good quality pictures / very powerful zoom and most importantly runs on standard or rechargable AA batteries.

Andy
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: StuntPilot on December 14, 2012, 11:39:52 am
grival - me too. I have just purchased the Powermonkey Extreme (they had a £20 off promotion not long ago and I could not resist!)

I am very happy with this as a cache battery. It is rugged and waterproof (one of my main requirements) as well as having a great capacity and the solar panel as an additional charging option.

Like Dan, all devices I use are USB chargeable or use AA/AAA rechargeable batteries. As mentioned above, my Canon G9 camera though is charged from the Freeloader Pro digital camera battery via the charging caddy.

I decided against the e-Werk as fiddling with voltages put me off.

For digital SLR cameras there may be a work around. Many of the Digital SLRs can be fitted with an optional battery pack that takes AA batteries. The Nikon D7000 camera for example can take two of the cameras specific Nikon batteries OR 6 x AA. With the Powermonkey Extreme and a USB AA battery charger, that may solve the problem of how to feed a larger digital SLR on a tour! Or, as Andy suggests, choose a compact digital camera that uses AA batteries.

I have an eneloop USB charger (yes Dan - eneloop batteries are excellent, with a new 3rd generation now released for up to 1800 recharge cycles!).
This small light charger and works well for charging AA/AAA batteries from the Powermonkey Extreme. Only two at a time though!

http://www.eneloop.info/eneloop-products/chargers.html#c430 (http://www.eneloop.info/eneloop-products/chargers.html#c430)

A better option may be the Varta USB Pro charger. It can charge 1 - 4 AA/AAAs at a time via the USB port on the Powermonkey Extreme. It can also use global mains voltage (100 - 240V) and 12V car adapter to charge the batteries (and hence a solar panel too with the correct 12V adapter). I am a bit concerned about the time to charge 4 x AAA from USB being stated as 20 hours in this unit's manual, and a bit confused as elsewhere I have read that it charges faster than this via USB. I will probably have to buy one and test it! Looks a good and suitable charger though.

http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/Products/Chargers/Professional-Line/Digital-USB.aspx#Digital-USB (http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/Products/Chargers/Professional-Line/Digital-USB.aspx#Digital-USB)

There is another possibly suitable Varta USB model too ...

http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/Products/Chargers/Power-Line/LCD.aspx#LCD (http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/en/Products/Chargers/Power-Line/LCD.aspx#LCD)

Enjoying this thread ... keep it going!

(Afterthought - if every bike commuter had a hub dynamo, Plug II and cache battery, and used the setup to charge their devices, just how much electricity would be saved?!!!)
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: grivai on December 15, 2012, 03:22:01 am


(Afterthought - if every bike commuter had a hub dynamo, Plug II and cache battery, and used the setup to charge their devices, just how much electricity would be saved?!!!)

absolutely...not to mention the number of people that would be encouraged to and better served by, getting out of their cars with this type of setup....I'm all for a more energy efficient life...now the energy embodied in the production of these units en masse etc....anybody want to start another PhD in renewable energies and do the math?! ;D

Thanks for the links and input regarding USB chargers guys...I will pick up one of those varta USB AA battery chargers for sure (I use Powerex and Imedion batteries, not Eneloop per se) and perhaps this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bower-Battery-Charger-USB-AC-DC-110-220V-FOR-NIKON-EN-EL3E-D300-D700-D200-MH-18a-/330841819889?pt=Batteries_Chargers&hash=item4d07b58af1

^ Looks like that's the one for me (have a D700).

I certainly agree that a longer charge cycle is preferable to having things burn out early or blow up outright. On long days I can't see you would ever be caught out unless really inefficient with your power management.

I think it has been covered before, but can you run through the issues with the TTTP2+ please? Some such as PeterWhiteCycles have said no problems have been reported, SJS cycles told me they have had some negative feedback and that I may be better off just with the original Plug 2....though, as I will have a cache in the Powermonkey, is this a moot point or not?  Down here in NZ not many people have these (my LBS had never heard of one, nor had much experience with dynamo hubs, and this is a very well known store) so I'm flying blind and relying on the knowledge online - which is outstanding, so I'm very appreciative. I'm doing a 2000km fundraising tour (my first) and will need to post updates regularly to my page/blog, so a hassle free and reliable power source/supply will be imperative.

I am using a Trek 520, an old one, which I have purchased a Chris King Nothreadset for based on some unfavourable reviews of the stock headsets - under which circumstances would you recommend the Supernova expander? I may have to revisit the other posts on the topic so as not to get too tangential here. Sorry!

Looking forward to it all arriving and putting things together.

Thanks again all! :)
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on December 15, 2012, 03:47:30 am
Quote
I think it has been covered before, but can you run through the issues with the TTTP2+ please?
Yes, it has been covered; it is worth doing a search of all all TTP2/+ issues. Among the total posts, there is complete information on the installation, setup, dis/advantages, and ways to use the device. This includes the removal of the original star-fangled nut (SFN) and installation of Tout Terrain's bolt-in, removable replacement. I wrote a little tutorial on how best to search the Forum here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4390.0 It really is easy, and "fills in the blanks" on many topics of interest. It is a good first stop for any topic of interest and easily unlocks the collected knowledge of this Forum.

The basic issue of concern with the TTTP2+ involves reliability. The "Plus" differs from the standard TTTP2 *only* by including the PAT cable...a replacement lead that includes electronics of ts own that simply shifts the maximum output of the unit to lower speeds; in other words, you don't have to be going as fast for it to put out a full charge. The problem is, some are faulty, and the result is the unit may stutter and indicate a low-power state where it is unable to put out the necessary ~5v @0.5A. Not all units are affected, and the "cure" is to simply use the non-PAT lead, reverting to the non-adjusted TTTP2 -- or returning a faulty unit under warranty.
Quote
...under which circumstances would you recommend the Supernova expander?
The Supernova Expander is the same as Tout Terrain's...since the charging unit offered by Supernova *is* the TTTP2. As indicated on the Tout Terrain site, the removable expander is indicated whenever the "petals" on your star-fangled nut to not offer a clear path for the electrical lead (some SFN's have offset petals/stars that would block an electrical lead running up the steerer). I would recommend the expander for any TTTP2 installation, as it makes the install process much easier. I have posted complete instructions with photos elsewhere in this topic, board, and Forum. Just search for "Tout Terrain", "TTTP2", "Star-fangled nut", "SFN", or any similar related terms.

Best,

Dan. (...who thinks Tout Terrain deserve a plug, though there are good alternatives)
Title: Re: Battery-charging: Any experience with Tout Terrain's Plug 2 Extra Power?
Post by: Danneaux on May 11, 2013, 12:29:15 am
Hi All!

'Just about to install the Tout Terrain The Plug 2 with PAT (Power Amplification Technology) cord onto the Nomad (it had resided happily on the Sherpa) and used this opportunity to do an external/temporary installation and swap between the plain wire and the PAT wire and so compare the speed full-power charging started and stopped with a given load.

I have my lighting and charging systems connected to my SON28 (New) hub in parallel using piggyback connectors. I did all charging with my head- and taillights turned off so The Plug's USB socket would receive the hub's full output.

My test load was (2) Sony-branded Sanyo Eneloop AA Ni-MH cells rated at 2500mAh each in a Sanyo AA/AAA Eneloop USB charger. I waited till both batteries were depleted to 50% of charged capacity, then loaded them into the charger and secured both batteries to the charger with a rubber band to prevent any possibility of them bouncing out, which would invalidate the test (i.e. no load or partial load).

The TTTP2 -- with or without PAT -- has a green LED that serves as a power indicator. It has three states:
• Off, when the bike is at rest or operating below minimum charging voltage.
• On, when the bike is going fast enough to produce an adequate (5VDC @ 0.5A) charge.
• Blinking, when the load exceeds what the TTTP2 can produce (in other words, when it can't produce an adequate charge for the load)

The Sanyo AA/AAA Eneloop USB charger also has an indicator light (blue) with three states:
• Off, when unplugged or inadequate voltage is available.
• Blinking when it is charging.
• Solid when the batteries are fully charged.

With the plain TT cord, the minimum speed for consistent charging at this load (TTTP2= solid green, Eneloop USB charger blinking blue) is an indicated 10.3mph/16.58kph. For reference, the LED comes on solid green at 8.9mph/14.3kph with *no* load.

With the PAT cord, the minimum speed for consistent charging at this load (TTTP2= solid green, Eneloop USB charger blinking blue) is an indicated 7.5mph/12kph. This will be a considerable help to me on poor gravel roads, trails, and off-road, as it will mean I can produce an adequate charge even at low speeds.

Yes, full charging is available at a lower speed with the PAT cord than with the plain cord. When the PAT is packaged with The Plug2, the lot is referred to as the "The Plug2 Plus".

Drag while charging was unnoticeable and so slight, I'm not sure I could properly measure it in ambient conditions (wind, road slope).

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan. (...who is all charged up about refilling his batteries while riding)