Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: hendrich on January 17, 2022, 02:33:36 pm
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I changed the oil today in my rohloff, which I do yearly. As before, the stuff that comes out with the cleaning fluid is black and appears very dirty. I follow the 2 flush method, splitting the 25 mL cleaning fluid in half and doing twice. Rohloff says 25 mL is good, but I am sorely tempted to use 50 mL of cleaning fluid for each oil change. On the other hand, I could go crazy and flush with my whole 250 mL bottle, but there would still likely be some dirt coming out. Does anyone use more than 25 mL cleaning fluid?
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My first Rohloff hub was a bit notchy on gear changes at first.
SJSC recommended a double flush for the first couple of oil changes to get any swarf out.
The hub did get smoother at changing, but then the bike got stolen.
The replacement bike’s hub was smooth from day 1 so I no longer do double flushes.
But if you think the hub benefits from them then continue the practice.
Julian
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"swarf"...I learned a new word, thanks. I have experience in machining, but never heard "swarf" always called them turnings.
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It seems to me "swarf" is too established a word to be called techie slang. I can remember hearing it used as far back as the 1960s by elderly craftsmen, long-since time-served artisans, as a collective noun for tiny slivers of steel knocked off gears as they gather in the sump, and other collections of shavings of metal attendant on metalwork. There's even a craftsmen's hand cleaner called Swarfega, presumably with some (long-forgotten?) connection.
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My inclination is to make the oil changes more frequent rather than do double-flushing. The first three oil changes for my Mercury's Rohloff hub have average 75% of the recommended interval although there's an element of chance in that as I aim to do the changes when the weather is warm and the oil flows more freely. I wouldn't be wanting completely clean oil as having some fine metallic dust in the oil in the hub probably helps with the final polishing of the gear surfaces.
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Do whatever makes you happy, I've never seen a report that not doing an oil change better caused an issue, I suspect the requirement for annual or 3,000 miles is already on the cautious side.
Here's what makes me happy:
Flush with 25ml
If it looks dirty flush again with another 25ml
Insert 25ml Oil
Go for a ride
Remove 15ml
Mileages on my hubs are
103,000 (96,000 recorded, 7,000 a very conservative guess for the rest)
48,000 (Though only 7,000 of those by me)
11,000 for the baby of the group
All three had a couple of early oil changes when new, then the regular annual/3,000 mile routine, though I'm not fussed about +/- a month or a few miles.
No problems so far.
I'd also note that the oil has changed over the years, the stuff I bought with the bike in 2003 went in looking dirty! Plus you had to shake it up as it partly separated.
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Discussion of advanced oil change practices in "Power-servicing your Rohloff" found at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13327.0 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13327.0).
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Hi Hendrich,
I haven't double cleaned my hub.... so far... but with the price of Rohloff oil, it is an expensive extra expense, unless you purchased bulk oil at a great price. I suspect most Rohloff owners buy the single oil change kit- although I have no facts to support that.
When I purchased my (non-Thorn) Rohloff bike 2nd hand 2 years ago, I change the oil within a couple of weeks of getting the bike. The previous owner wasn't really certain on when and how many km previous change had been. And that was the messiest oil I've extracted. Since then, more than 10,000km and 2 further oil changes the oil was a grayish hue, but not almost black like on my very first flush.
When I started looking at the price of Rohloff oil, I was tempted at trying out the 'alternative' non Rohloff oil change as described here http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=jtiok3hgt6vh93mj25rr4dto32&topic=12554.0 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=jtiok3hgt6vh93mj25rr4dto32&topic=12554.0) but then I was able to source a 'party-sized' pair of 1 liter original hub/cleaning oil @ EUR 44/ bottle. Even better, a friend of mine paid half, on the condition that I help him with his oil changes, which he had previously paid a bike shop to do.
BUT- if you are going through the cleaning oil a bit quicker by double flushing- you might want to consider mixing your own drinks if the flushing oil is eating into the budget. Using 1 part Rohloff oil to 7 to 8 parts white spirit could be a cheaper way to create a hub oil-flush should you feel the need to clean it with more than the standard volume of flushing oil.
No money back- no guarantee and I have NOT tried this, although I would probably have done had I not sourced my original oil so cheaply.
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I would not put any trust in that Crazy Guy posting on their analysis of the oil.
The only parameter on that lab report that I think is applicable is viscosity. I have been retired for over a decade now, and with a job change two decades ago, I have not looked at any laboratory analysis of petroleum products in that much time. But suffice it to say that a hand written note stating that it was similar to a Mobil product or similar to adding two different petroleum products together is simply a comment made by a lab tech without much basis.
I have no expertise in Rohloff lube, other than having read that some oils can cause some problems in the hub because some oils contain compounds that can damage something in the hub. But that was years ago when I read that and I do not recall what those problems were. At the cost of the hub, I am quite content to still be using oil from my Rohloff 250ml bottles that I bought several years ago.
Comments number 8 and 10 on the crazy guy posting were by me.
I do not think a double flush is necessary. But if you really want to do that, go ahead. And if you then get concerned about consuming your cleaning oil faster than you are consuming lube oil, perhaps do one of your double flushes with half cleaning and half lube oils?
It was several years ago when I bought my 250ml bottles. Price has gone up some since then. I think price for where you buy depends a lot on where you live. Cost of shipping can vary a lot.
UK
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/rohloff-all-seasons-cleaning-oil-speedhub-oil-twin-pack-2-x-250-ml-bottle-for-speedhub-50014-8409/
EU (several sellers, this is where I bought my hub and oil)
https://www.bike24.com/p2406748.html
In USA Cycle Monkey used to charge over $100 USD for the 250ml bottles, but now they no longer list it on their website. And I do not see that size bottles on Amazon either. I looked at Co-Motion, they only sell the single change sized bottles too. But, all sellers in USA that sell anything to do with Rohloff mark up the prices so much, even with the high shipping costs you often are better off ordering from a seller in Europe or maybe post-Brexit UK.
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In any event, the Rohloff oil is formulated as it is, and we pay for it whatever Rohloff has to charge (not a lot in relation to the cost of a new gearbox), because anything else may attack the seals in a Rohloff gearbox which are much lighter and of much less sturdy materials than in non-cycling gearboxes -- go beat on a weight weenie, it wasn't me whispering in Herr Rohloff's ear about reducing the weight. This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy, and should come with a bond that those who spread it will pay for the gullible owner's Rohloff to be sent to SJS (if they'll even take it after such abuse) or Germany to be torn down and have new seals fitted.
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Oil price is only expensive if you're buying single shots or drinking it ;)
Previously I bought the litre size and shared it, I don't think it's a coincidence that the 250ml size is priced just enough to make that not worth the bother. My original oil changes worked out at under £2, current ones from the 250ml stock are £4.50
Current SJS prices for 25ml of both:
£3.00 if bought in 1 ltr bottles, that's £60 a litre
£4.60 if bought in 250ml bottles, that's £90 a litre
£13.00 for a single shot, that's £260 a litre :o
The last one sounds a lot, but it's still only £13 year. Advantage for me of having bigger bottles, isn't just the saving but the convenience of having it ready, I might decide to change it early before a tour, or straight after it's been accidentally submerged, or just because it's about due and I have some free time.
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This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy
I thought so too, when it came up elsewhere it was pointed out that White Spirit isn't even a standardised thing, there's three main types and variations within them.
OTOH - I've been dipping Alfine and Nexus hubs into automatic gearbox oil for years, based on something I read on the internet, and they run smooth, but it wouldn't have made me cry if that hadn't worked and the oil was a tenner instead of £60 for the Shimano stuff.
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The single oil change kit includes syringe, spare plug, etc. So, it is worth getting one or maybe two of those if you are a new owner.
I re-use the plug screws. Dave W (formerly of SJS) commented that the Locktite helped prevent dissimilar metal corrosion, so I put thread locker on my drain screws. Dave also commented that you need a special threadlocker that does not dissolve in oils, but I never bothered to buy that.
I have mentioned this before, will repeat it here. When I have flown on a plane, I had a lot of oil leakage after the flight. I suspect either the orientation of the hub which I suspect was on the side with non-drive side down and also air pressure fluctuations during the flight. For that reason, if I planned to do an oil change before a trip, I will drain and flush the hub, but I fly with it without oil. I then add the oil upon my arrival.
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This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy
I thought so too, when it came up elsewhere it was pointed out that White Spirit isn't even a standardised thing, there's three main types and variations within them.
OTOH - I've been dipping Alfine and Nexus hubs into automatic gearbox oil for years, based on something I read on the internet, and they run smooth, but it wouldn't have made me cry if that hadn't worked and the oil was a tenner instead of £60 for the Shimano stuff.
I use Rohloff oil for my Rohloff hubs, reckoning that it wasn't worth skimping on the cost of the oil for expensive hubs.
I bought a couple of kits to get some spare syringes and tubes, then 250 ml bottles of the cleaning and lubricating oils. And after I finished the 250 ml bottles, I bought litre bottles.
I also now use Rohloff oil in my few remaining Sturmey-Archer hubs. In the Sturmey hubs I use a few drops per hub per month, my last 125 ml bottle of Sturmey-Archer oil lasted for over 5 years, so I decided that with the bulk Rohloff oil available it wasn't worth the bother looking for a cheaper substitute.
I also bought a bulk pack of the Rohloff drain plugs (20 ?), which I also use on the Shimano Nexus 8 premium hubs fitted to six family bikes. On the Rohloff hubs I generally fit new ones at each oil change, the Shimanos get the used ones.
For the Shimano hubs I use a synthetic gear box oil, easy to find in relatively cheap 1 litre bottles at local motor supply shops.
My logic here is that the official Shimano dunking oil kit costs about as much as I paid for each hub (about 70-80 euros, I bought several when they were available at discount prices at SJS Cycles), and that I have already invalidated any guarantee by drilling the shell for a drain plug and using outboard-motor grease to reinforce the weather resistance in the two accessible outer bearings.
I started using this synthetic oil in 2012, and so far I have not had any problems, so it probably doesn't damage the plastic parts inside the Shimano hubs. My opinion is that using oil instead of the factory-supplied grease increases the efficiency of these hubs. The drain plug allows me to "top up" the oil to replace seepage through the seals, which is slightly more than the seepage with Rohloffs but still fairly minimal, and so increase the interval between opening the hub for inspection, oil bath and regreasing the outer bearings, which I generally do about every two years or so.
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I have a Sram Dual Drive hub, I have never opened it and have no intention of doing so. It is on my folding bike, works great. Occasionally I drip a few drops of oil into the drive side hollow axle where the shifter rod threads into it, that is all. For those of you that are not familiar with the hub, it is a three speed hub like a Sturmey Archer, but it can take a Sram or Shimano 8 or 9 speed cassette. I can't fit a front derailleur to my folding bike so this is how I expanded the gearing range.
Decades ago I bought a used three speed bike, had a Sturmey Archer hub with drum brake. The previous owner had oiled it enough that oil had gotten into the brake linings. When I bought it, the seller also gave me an incomplete bike that was the same but with a women's frame. Later I stripped the parts off of the women's frame bike and discarded the frame, keeping the parts and wheels. When I could not buy tires for that men's frame bike in the late 1980s, the bike and spare parts went into storage.
Now that it is easy to buy 650b tires again, earlier this year I put some tires on the "spare" wheels that came off of the women's frame bike onto the men's frame and have used it some for errands. Apparantly nobody had put excess oil into that hub. The brake works fine, the linings appear to have no oil contamination.
But, I would be nervous about adding any lube to the rear hub. Since my errands on that bike are typically less than five miles (~8 km) round trip, the bike gets very little wear on it. Date code on the hub is 1966.
Thus, of my fleet of three IGH bikes, the Rohloff is the only one that actually gets a regular lube job.
..... On the Rohloff hubs I generally fit new ones at each oil change, the Shimanos get the used ones.
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Great quote.
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This:
This idea of adding white spirit to the cleaning oil/extreme winter oil is crazy
I thought so too, when it came up elsewhere it was pointed out that White Spirit isn't even a standardised thing, there's three main types and variations within them.
Just on my desk here, today for current projects, are two bottles of "white spirit" labeled as containing aliphatic hydrocarbons and orange terpenes, plus who-knows what else, one described as an "effective, powerful and efficient solvent for oil paint" and the other as "use to blend colored pencils, wax pencils and oil pencils". Who wants to bet the price of a Rohloff gearbox, plus spoking in, transport and nuisance costs, that the paper filters in the Rohloff box aren't waxed to protect their fibers against destruction by the Rohloff oil? I don't know for sure, because I'm not a chemist, but I'd bet a smaller amount of money that "orange terpenes" (added to white spirits to make them smell less ugly) are acidic.
Or I can reach behind my desk into my paintboxes for several kinds of white spirit with one thing in common, that they have fast-drying properties; they don't even mention that the fast drying is achieved by adding resins to the distilled white spirit. Who wants to introduce a high-efficiency hardening paste into his Rohloff gearbox? That's what these resins in the white spirits are.
If I went into this properly, I could probably scare y'all rigid, but that's just what I can see in my study among stuff used with pencils, without even going into the room where I keep the more violent kinds of white spirit and selecting only the nastiest.
Which leads me to the next point, that any white spirit you buy at the hardware store or the supermarket (I have some to clean printing press accessories and equipment), except the kind that is pricier than Rohloff oil because it is purified before the desirable (to artists) additives are mixed in, has all kinds of impurities in it of the kind that the seals are supposed to keep out, like common dust, which with any oil makes a grinding paste. Mixing white spirit of unknown origin and processing into your Rohloff cleaning and extreme cold oil would bypass the seals before, perhaps, destroying them. Yech.
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Referring to PH and Martin's tales of servicing Shimano hub gearboxes: I can remember when the Shimano kit for servicing their Nexus gearbox hub cost STG pounds 38 but for Euro 45 you could buy a brand-new Nexus box nicely spoked into a first-class rim in November when the discounters or even the factories sold off the previous year's unused wheels to clear space for new stock long since ordered. That was in 2002, only twenty years ago.
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The Rohloff oil/fluid is not that expensive when buying in bulk for yearly oil changes. The oil coming out is very black and I am reminded of similar blackness when changing car oil. I am not interested in using alternative fluids, a Rohloff lasts a long time and I don't feel alternatives are worthwhile. Probably, once a year with 25 mL cleaning fluid is satisfactory. Given that this bunch of thoughtful people have not suggested that 50 mL fluid is better, I'll stick with 25. Thanks.
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I have a Sram Dual Drive hub, I have never opened it and have no intention of doing so. It is on my folding bike, works great. Occasionally I drip a few drops of oil into the drive side hollow axle where the shifter rod threads into it, that is all. For those of you that are not familiar with the hub, it is a three speed hub like a Sturmey Archer, but it can take a Sram or Shimano 8 or 9 speed cassette. I can't fit a front derailleur to my folding bike so this is how I expanded the gearing range.
I have had a couple of Dual Drive hubs in the past.
I used one on an old Moulton where it would have been very difficult to fit a front derailleur. It was a very suitable set up for wide-range gearing on a small wheel (16") bike as it allowed the use of reasonably-sized chainrings and sprockets to get a "normal" spread of gears. The other I used for a while on a 26" bike, but I eventually decided that an 8-speed hub gear suited me better for the kind of riding I did with that bike. After my 16" wheel Moultons started breaking up I bought a 20" wheel Moulton TSR and transferred one of the Dual Drive hubs to that, after I sold the TSR I also sold both Dual Drive hubs.
I took both the hubs to bits when I first got them, to clean out all the grease. As I usually do with Sturmey and SRAM hubs I used outboard motor grease in the accessible outer bearings and oil instead of grease on the internal parts, at the time Sturmey-Archer oil, if I was doing that nowadays I would use either synthetic gearbox oil or Rohloff oil, both work well without gumming up the pawls or attacking plastic parts like some oils can do.
I found the internal gears on the Dual Drive hubs to be very efficient. And light for a gear hub. I reckon any efficiency losses compared to a pure derailleur system were cancelled out on the 16" Moulton be being able to use larger sprockets, a 13T rear sprocket is theoretically a few percent better than an 11T.
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Decades ago I bought a used three speed bike, had a Sturmey Archer hub with drum brake. The previous owner had oiled it enough that oil had gotten into the brake linings.
That is a common problem with the old oil-lubed Sturmey Archer three speeds with drum brake.
I have a more recent version, which uses light grease instead of oil.
This is fitted to an old bike, previously used for visitors and now used occasionally by my wife when she doesn't want to risk locking up her "best" bike in town.
On that hub, I don't do my usual "oil instead of grease" lubrication.
Instead, I use a very thick grease in the bearing on the brake drum side, the recommended NLGI-0 grease for the internal and my usual NLGI-2 outboard motor grease for the two accessible bearings on the sprocket side.
My reasoning is that the "barrier" of thick grease should be viscous enough to stop any of the light grease migrating towards the brake linings.
As greases dry out slowly over time, I very occasionally (about every five years or so) strip the hub, clean out the old grease, and renew with the same three greases.
Doing that has worked so far. I suppose it is about 15 years or so since I got the hub.
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Regarding the black colour of used oil, I always assumed that it was due to wear debris from the metal to metal contact within the hub. However when the original CGOAB article appeared a friend who owns a Mercury contacted me to ask my opinion. I did some on line research and it may be that there's another explanation.
The high phosphorous content of the Crazy Guy analysis is indicative of an extreme pressure (EP) oil and the black colour may be due to the rather complex chemistry underlying the way that such EP oils work. Briefly, the heat produced locally by the extremely high pressures results in chemical bonding to the iron at the surface of the steel to form an organo-iron-phosphide layer, which acts like a soap to reduce wear. The organo bit is a long chain hydrocarbon and when this layer eventually breaks down a small amount of carbon is released. This may well be responsible for the black colour of used oil.
Incidentally, Phosphorous isn't the only EP additive used. Similar compounds of Sulphur and Boron can be used and it may well be significant that there is no Sulphur in the Rohloff oil analysis. I don't know if there are any brass or bronze components in the hub but the Sulphur additives can react with the copper in these alloys to produce particles of copper sulphides. These are extremely hard and produce a grinding paste that will actually accelerate wear. A very good reason, I would have thought, for sticking with the Rohloff product.
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My philosophy on my Nomad Mk II was that the Rohloff was expensive, the oil was also quite expensive compared to other oils but it was a bargain in bulk (250ml bottles) compared to the cost of the hub.
If the hubs had a reputation for lasting five to eight years, I would not have paid that much for the hub, and if I had obtained a hub with that short of a lifespan, I probably would have used kerosene for a cleaning oil and synthetic gear lube for the hub. My Jeep Comanche pickup truck is long gone, but I still have a jug of synthetic 90W140 gear lube that I used in the differential.
But, when I bought my Rohloff hub in 2013, it already had a reputation from 15 years of production for lasting forever, or as close to forever as that many years of production can imply. So, it made sense to buy the designated oil in bulk and use the specified oil.
Most of my distance is ridden on derailleur bikes, not my Rohloff bike. But still even with low mileage on that bike the cost of oil is no more than pennies per hour of riding.
I built up my Nomad from the frame. I built it up for heavy touring, CSS rims for long life span, etc. Spent the extra money for S&S couplers, which have paid for themselves in reduced airline fees. But I did not waste money either, I bought a $30 (USD) crankset on Amazon because it was strong enough to last and be reliable. I bought some $8 generic brand chainrings because they were good enough. And I have been using the cheapest KMC chains. I could have spent more on bling, but the UN55 bottom brackets had a great reputation, so that is what I used. I tried a few different brakes and ended up using some Tektro brakes that were $11 (USD).
My philosophy was for a robust reliable bike that is easy to repair and with components that are easy to replace and readily available.
I wish they still made UN55 bottom brackets, they have replaced that model with a lower budget one. Because it is an uncommon size with a 73mm width, I have a spare (the new cheaper model) on the shelf.
In other words, I did not waste money for the bragging rights for bling. But where it looked like a good idea to spend money, like on bulk Rohloff oil, I spent that money to have that robust reliable and easily repairable bike.
And my original Amazon crankset and other low budget parts are still holding up just fine.