Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Muppets Threads! (And Anything Else) => Topic started by: KDean on October 13, 2021, 08:42:22 am
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Not being one for having several bikes , if you could only have one for doing a bit of everything I reckon it would have to be the Nomad ? at least it wouldn't break .Have you ever been out on a trip & wished you'd taken another bike ? What would yours be ?
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I'm glad I don't face that dilemma, if I did mine would have to fold.
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Probably my titanium touring bike. Eight speed 11/32 Sram cassette, half step plus granny triple, bar end shifters, dynohub lighting and USB charging, steel fork. But if it was my only bike, I would have to add S&S couplers. With fenders (mudguards) it can take up to 37mm wide tires.
I would not take it where I have taken my Nomad, that is one reason to own multiple bikes. I think my Sherpa can take a heavier load, I consider the Sherpa my medium touring bike where my titanium bike is my light touring bike and the Nomad Mk II is my heavy touring bike. I am sure that my titanium bike would have worked well on some of the bike tours I have done on my Sherpa, but the Sherpa that can take 50mm tires probably was a better choice on some of those trips.
But my titanium bike rides and handles similar to both my road bike and my rando bike while it can also carry a load on wider tires. I built it up before "gravel" bikes became a separate category of bikes, but it is very much like a "gravel" bike but with a triple crank drive train and fenders.
Two of my bikes were spur of the moment decisions to buy, not a long thought out process. And my titanium bike is one of those snap decisions. I got a great deal on the frame, with factory warranty. When that manufacturer gets a new frame returned from a dealer they put it on Ebay instead of putting it back in inventory which is how I got it for a great price. I had always wanted a titanium bike so it was a quick decision to add some bling to my bike collection. But in the end I found it to be one of my favorite bikes.
Since I built it up for touring, I wanted it to be reliable, robust, easy to repair and easy to replace components. For example, the rear hub I chose has a steel axle, it is a Shimano XT hub with quarter inch ball bearings, technology that has been around for decades. But I recently switched to cartridge bearing jockey wheels, as I got tired of cleaning and re-greasing the jockey wheels every couple years.
No racks on the bike when photo taken, when touring I have racks front and rear with a four pannier setup.
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If really pressed for space I'd keep two.
Raven Tour, as it will do everything any of my full size bikes can do, albeit slower and less fun than my Raven Sport Tour for lightly-loaded day rides.
And one of my Brompton folders. Less necessary than when I was working but still extremely useful for multimodal trips.
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I currently have 15 bikes, ranging from my late father's 1938 Hercules to several road bikes and folders from 1970 to more modern/contemporary bikes including ones I've built myself and a tandem. Each will of course do anything and go anywhere, but is best suited for a particular task.
My Nomad is my primary expedition bike and is nonpareil for the task. It handles extreme loads well, has extremely low maintenance requirements, and the low gearing I need making it perfect for me in this use. It is also (necessarily) heavier at 20kg dry and unladen than my other bikes and less well-suited for really long 300-400km day rides than my randonneur and lighter touring bikes that weigh around 14.5kg and have lighter wheels. The Nomad works so well for me off-road and on logging roads, any intended road ride soon turns into an impromptu exploration of whatever gravel lane or dirt track I come across. The bike has been superb for this.
At the other end of the spectrum, I have my Fixie which has ended up being my go-fast bike and is also lightest at 11.8kg fully outfitted.
In-between is a 1987 production steel MTB/commuter frame (Diamondback Transporter) fitted with a choice of Thorn Sherpa Mk2 forks, one providing neutral trail, the other low-trail geometry. It is my Enduro-Allroad and closest to being the One Ring That Rules Them All in my stable (the do-all "only" bike). It is about halfway between the Nomad and the Rando bikes for weight yet has 26x2.0 slick tires and the usual mudguards, racks, bottles and sus-seatpost I need for rough-stuff while weighing about 16.3kg. However, it would not be my choice for a long tour because of the shorter lifespan and greater maintenance demanded by the 3x9 derailleur drivetrain.
I put about 9,000kms on a Thorn Raven on my 2014 tour. It was closest to my mutant DB Transporter but with the added advantage of a Rohloff drivetrain. Weight spotted in pretty close to the same as well. I could have become my "one bike".
Still lusting after an Audax or Mercury, so there seems to be no cure for "n+1 Syndrome".
Best,
Dan.
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... there seems to be no cure for "n+1 Syndrome".
Best,
Dan.
Yeah, my last two were not planned purchases. The most recent one, I thought about it for maybe five minutes before I bought it. That one was on Amazon, a complete bike with Campy drivetrain and Ritchey Breakaway frame, cost was less than the cost of the frame. I rarely ride it but am still glad I bought it.
I had to think hard several months ago when I saw that Thorn Enduro on Ebay, but as you know I eventually decided that even though it was a great deal I would probably not use it enough to warrant purchase.
But, I am at the point where there are redundancies. Hard to justify even great deals.
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I could do 90% of my cycling on more RST with little compromise. Great for touring, commuting,shopping and some recreational rides. I would miss my audax bike for fun day rides and the folder was great when meetings were held in London before Zoom. If buying now it would be a Mercury which is similar to the RST but with bigger wheels and disk options.
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Raven Tour man here.
It took me over the Pamir Highway fully loaded.
No issues. Maybe I was lucky but I don't tour with luck in my panniers.
Maybe longer and tougher/ rougher roads but I recall thinking the Raven handled it all so well. I wondered what else the Nomad would have offered. Apart from weight. Security of mind of course. And when one is above 3500m and 100+ miles from another soul, I guess that can be important.
Isn't it great that we can all have different opinions and views?
Reminds me of my friend Rodney's quote:
I never lose. I either win or learn.
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I commented above that if I could only have one bike, it would be my titanium bike. But, I am sure that it would have not performed well if I had this load on it on this rough of a road.
Photo of my Nomad Mk II and a photo of the road that day attached.
I do not think I would have even attempted that road with my titanium bike.
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Wellll... Horses for courses, if I may coin a phrase.
My Raven-mit-Rohloff does well on more courses than either of my other bikes, an Eclipse ti-framed light-touring bike, and a Miele San Remo road bike repurposed and re-kitted as a city errands bike. No contest within my stable. The "but" is significant: I wouldn't use it for any purpose that meant leaving it locked and unattended in public view.
If the Raven were stolen today (perish the thought), I'd replace it with a Mercury with 650B wheels and (if I properly understand Moronic's reports) I could use an ST front fork that would allow front rack & panniers. Of course, the Raven is no longer built so there'd be no choice to be made. But even if it were available, I'd still opt for the Mercury - the lighter weight and (unladen) nippier feel make it attractive.
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Yes mine would be the one I've got, a Mercury Mk 3 650b, and I got it with versatility in mind as a one-bike solution. For me it wouldn't be a Nomad because I don't dream of long trips in remote places. Andy B makes the point in the Thorn megabrochure that you need a bike that will handle your most stressful use, and the corollary is that ifmthe bike will handle your most stressful use then it's as strong as you need it to be.
I expect I'll be touring with less than 10kg on board. Thorn's charts suggest a Merc could take that just about anywhere but I'm yet to put it to the test, since my city is still under the world's longest lockdown.
Yes John when ordering a Mercury Mk 3 you can specify the Thorn 853 fork, ST fork, or disc-brake fork. The latter two come with low-rider rack mounts.
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My Raven-mit-Rohloff does well on more courses than either of my other bikes, an Eclipse ti-framed light-touring bike, and a Miele San Remo road bike repurposed and re-kitted as a city errands bike. No contest within my stable. The "but" is significant: I wouldn't use it for any purpose that meant leaving it locked and unattended in public view.
One of the reasons that I have a lot of bikes. I have seven (my wife has three, one "best", one utility, one Brompton folder) and we have two "visitor" bikes at our island flat. My seven are :
Best bikes:
- Raven Tour with Rohloff set up for loaded touring.
- Raven Sport Tour with Rohloff set up for lightly-loaded day rides.
Utility bikes, which I feel comfortable leaving locked up in public view. I have too many of these, but as I have a large garage and no car I prefer to keep them rather than selling them for virtually nothing:
- Raven Tour with Nexus 8 set up for load carrying and trailer towing. I bought this frame a few years ago because 650B tyres for my old utility bike were getting hard to find. Now it is 26" tyres that seem to be on the way out.
- Old Peugeot 650B with Sturmey-Archer S5/2 5 speed hub gear. Frame made before 1970, maybe as early as the 1950's. It is now easy to find 650B (27.5") tyres.
- My 1977 Woodrup lightweight. I recently put an S5/2 hub gear on this as I have rarely used it in its original derailleur setup since getting the Sport Tour.
Folders:
- Lightweight Brompton, with an S5/2 hub gear. Was my multimodal commuter, used less often now but still very useful for some errands.
- "Touring" Brompton, with rear rack and Rohloff. Was my survey work folder, now used mainly for train-assisted cycling/walking holidays with my wife.
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We seem to have wandered a bit from the one bike theme, interesting to hear others thought all the same, and as we have...
My Bikes:
Well two that I don’t really consider mine, they’re work vehicles and only get used for that. A Trek Allant+ 5 Ebike, quite a recent acquisition used for delivery work and more than paying for itself. And a Brompton B75, used when I have contract work that requires multi modal transport, average distance when I use it is under 10 miles, there are no practical alternatives other than driving. I know Bromptons have their devotees, I'm not really one, sure there's nothing folds like it, I'm just not keen on riding it.
Then my three favourite bikes:
Top of the list is my Rohloff Mercury, if I’m out for fun, not too much off road, don’t need to transport it, and not carrying too much luggage, this is the bike I’ll be on.
My most used is the Surly Ogre Rohloff, everyday utility, anytime I need to carry a heavy load, off road, camping. It also acts as a back up delivery bike (It was originally bought for delivery work)
Then the one I would probably keep if restricted to one, an Airnimal Joey Rohloff, it’ll do at least 90% of what the above two will, just not as well. I’ll comfortable sit on it for a 200km Audax, it’ll just be a touch slower. I have a Radical Designs trailer to go with it, so it’ll carry any load and then pack into the trailer bag to be transported by any mode.
Then an additional two just because:
My first proper touring bike, a Hewitt Cheviot SE, currently in a light Audax build. I hardly ride it; I haven’t been out on it this year and only a couple of days last year. If all the stars align it’s a joy to ride, that just doesn’t happen often. I wouldn’t really miss it, but it costs nothing to keep and they fetch so little money there’s no reason to part with it.
Lastly my other Mercury, crash damaged and written off last year, the salvaged parts were gathering dust and I was suffering lockdown boredom! So, new ST fork, powder coated and Alfine hub I has sitting around. Bigger tyres and no guards, lighter than the No 1 Mercury, it’s a bit of a blast to ride. Plus it’s reclaimed, it owes me nothing, I’m not going to be upset if it gets a bit knocked about, so it might get used where I wouldn’t want to take the other.
This year’s mileage to give some idea of usage, what’s clear and sort of brings us back to the thread topic, is that if I had to choose one, it would be the best compromise rather than my favourite bike:
Trek (2 months) 1,850
Brompton 260
Ogre 3,600
Mercury R 2,060
Joey 320
Mercury A 460
Hewitt 0
Trailer 0
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Then the one I would probably keep if restricted to one, an Airnimal Joey Rohloff, it’ll do at least 90% of what the above two will, just not as well. I’ll comfortable sit on it for a 200km Audax, it’ll just be a touch slower. I have a Radical Designs trailer to go with it, so it’ll carry any load and then pack into the trailer bag to be transported by any mode.
At the risk of going off-topic can you clarify what's good and bad about the Joey? I'm currently wondering if there's a Rohloff-equipped bike that's a bit lighter than my Mercury (it must have disc brakes as well). Otherwise I'll have to continue taking bits off the Mercury when I want less weight and add them back again when i want more features.
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I can't answer for PH, but I also have a Joey.
In my case it is a long tale that I will try to keep short, with some disappointments along the way.
I bought the frame and fork to build up in 2006. All folding bikes are a compromise, some emphasize better portability at the cost of the ride and handling, some emphasize better ride and handling at the cost of portability. The Joey at that time was marketed as the best handling folder that you could fit into a case that would not incur airline oversize fees. I previously had a job that involved a lot of travel and I would have liked to have had a folder at that time, but by the time I bought the frame and fork and built it up, I was not traveling for work much so the purchase was more to fulfill a past desire, not a current need.
Then after I built it up, I tried to buy the airline case for it. That was when I learned that the case was not sold in USA. I asked the dealer that sold me the frame about a case, they said they had a nice case to sell me, but it was not the case I specifically asked about. I decided to wait until I was near that dealer (~400 km away) so I could look at it instead of buying it and having it shipped to me. Good thing I waited, their case was huge and would incur oversize charges. The dealer than said that there was no case that the Joey would fit in that would meet USA airline size criteria. At that point I realized that the case that Airnimal suggested for the Joey was not sold in USA because the USA airlines all had more stringent luggage sizes than British Air. And the marketing was oriented towards British Air flyers, not anyone else. That was when I suddenly had a huge case of buyers remorse.
So, for the next decade the Joey was rarely ridden, there was no way I could recover even a small fraction of my costs if I tried to sell it. I stored it in my truck in case I wanted to ride a bike somewhere that I had driven to.
Then in 2016, when I unpacked my Nomad Mk II with S&S couplers from the S&S Backpack case, I looked inside that empty case and decided to try to fit my Joey into it. It would take a lot of disassembly, but I could make it fit.
So, I finally learned that I had a folder that I could take on an airplane after all. This was a decade after I had first built it up. And by now I was retired and almost never flew anywhere anymore.
Two years later in 2018, two friends and I all signed up for a van supported bike trip in West Texas run by Adventure Cycling Association, each day we would ride our bikes to the next campground while the van would transport all our gear for us. The three of us flew on an airline that gave you two free checked bag allowance. On a whim, I decided to take my Joey on the plane, it would travel for free in my S&S Backpack case. It took as much time to pack it as it takes me to pack my S&S bike, a few hours, but it worked. Instead of taking their bikes on the plane, the other two shipped their bikes ahead to the motel, they had road bikes in bike boxes. Rode my Joey for that week, everyone else rode road bikes or touring bikes. And my Airnimal Joey was almost as good as my other non-folding bikes. It has a bit of flex in the tall seatpost extension. And there is flex in the steerer tube extension. But after several hundred miles, I got used to that flex, so not a problem for me.
Since then I have occasionally considered taking it on a trip but have not done so. Occasionally take it out of my truck and ride it. Just yesterday when I dropped off my truck to a repair shop to do some maintenence, I rode my Joey home, plan to ride it back to the shop later today.
Airnimal made a lot of changes since 2006 when mine was built. Mine is rim brake, and I learned the hard way that my tire size is extremely rare, so I have bought spare tires to keep in storage. They apparently changed the chainstay design later to fit wider tires so there are more tire options on the newer ones.
Mine is derailleur, not Rohloff. I can't fit a front derailleur to mine, I use a Sram Dual Drive for wider gearing range, that is a three speed hub that can take a cassette, thus mine is a 24 speed bike with an eight speed cassette. Newer Joeys can take a front derailleur.
A few photos.
1 - The bike packed in my S&S Backpack case. I even had to remove the crank arms to make it fit. Thus, not a quick one to pack.
2 - That trip in West Texas was hot and dry, I carried two water bottles, one liter each on the frame plus more in a saddle bag.
3 - The Joey in the motel room, the first fold takes less than a minute. I folded it to carry up the stairway to the room. To fold it you first remove the front wheel, the rear wheel goes into the fork.
4 - When I store it in my truck, I put it in a larger bag, I basically pack it like in the photo into that bag. Only takes a couple minutes to pack it that way into a storage bag. The pedals are not shown in this photo, I use MKS EZY removable pedals that are quick release. As shown in this photo, it took no tools to break it down to this size.
Although I have not enjoyed it as much as I thought I would, for some people that would find a need for a well handling bike that folds down to a slightly more compact size for commuting or for taking on a commuter train, I can see where they would have gotten a lot more use out of it than I have. For a small number of people, this would be a great bike.
In my case I probably should have bought a Bike Friday and the standard Samsonite suitcase that it packed into instead of the Joey. But, we live and learn.
ADDENDUM:
The Sram Dual Drive is no longer in production, but I have heard that Sturmey Archer makes a similar hub. I am using a Sturmey Archer bar end shifter for my Dual Drive, is indexed just right and works great.
I use drop bars and bar end shifters with my Joey, but I think most Joey users use flat bars which would be much more compact when folded.
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More takes on using a "folding" bike for touring.
About 12 years ago I bought a Moulton TSR frameset, that I built up with the same type of gearing as Mickeg, a SRAM dual-drive with 3 internal gears and a 7 or 8 speed dérailleur cassette. The TSR uses 20" wheels, it performed well on fast day rides and was quite good for on-road touring with a reasonable amount of luggage fitting onto the Moulton specific front and rear racks. But it wasn't as good as a fat-tyre full size bike for rocky or sandy paths and had less total luggage capacity, so a bit constrained for camping or for holidays with my wife, when I carry most of the luggage.
Rather than fold, the frame of the Moulton TSR could be split in the middle, and the seatpost and bars removed to make a package a bit smaller than a full-size bike with the wheels removed. I found dismantling the bike inconvenient in practice and hardly ever used this feature.
I already had Bromptons for commuting and survey work. The fold is very compact and quick, but a Brompton is less comfortable to ride than the full-suspension Moulton TSR and a full size bike with 26"x2" tyres. The Brompton gear range was also insufficient for some types of touring.
So I rationalised my bike stable, and sold the Moulton on (they keep their value well). I bought a Thorn Raven Tour with 26"x2" tyres, while tweaking one of my Bromptons to make it slightly more comfortable and more suitable for hilly touring.
The current iteration of my touring Brompton has titanium forks and handlebars to improve comfort and a custom rear triangle with integrated rear rack and Rohloff hub. It is as quick to fold as a standard Brompton and only slightly wider, so still very compact. Weight is about 12.3 Kg without luggage. Compared to my Raven Sport Tour day bike, there is a slight performance penalty. I haven't got reliable figures for this, but I reckon about 5% slower with a similar light load, partly because of the more upright riding position on the Brompton, partly because of the less efficient tyres. Luggage capacity is quite good, about 28 litres in the front bag (which is mounted on a luggage block on the frame, so more stable than front panniers), when more capacity is needed I carry a 48 litre rucksack bungeed to the rear rack and stabilised at the top with a strap to the saddle.
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Then the one I would probably keep if restricted to one, an Airnimal Joey Rohloff, it’ll do at least 90% of what the above two will, just not as well. I’ll comfortable sit on it for a 200km Audax, it’ll just be a touch slower. I have a Radical Designs trailer to go with it, so it’ll carry any load and then pack into the trailer bag to be transported by any mode.
At the risk of going off-topic can you clarify what's good and bad about the Joey?
I'm not sure I can. I like riding it, but not as much as my other bikes, there are no bad things, the good thing is that it folds. That's it really, it can do most things my other bikes can, but as already said, just not as well and it can be taken places where my others can't. I can bag it for the Eurostar, or to take on a coach (Something I planned a bit more of before the pandemic) or on many trains that would otherwise need a reservation, or in the boot of a hire car, or as luggage on a coach holiday. ( I try to avoid flying)
I'm on my second, the first when I needed a work folder once a week, it was OK for that and in the couple of years I had it I don't remember using it for anything else. Then the commute changed from weekly to daily and the fold became annoying and I swapped it for something easier. and of course immediately missed it. Couple of years later I got the chance of a clean second hand one and later converted to Rohloff. It's very much my travel bike, if I don't need to pack it I'll use something else. Not because it's bad, because I have better.
Here it is in the Picos, I toured with friends, mostly on touring bikes, I'd rather have been on the Mercury, but I wasn't hugely disadvantaged. It was an extra holiday that I hadn't planned or budgeted for, so instead of the £300+ ferry I spent £65 on the coach.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48775549262_af08f2b0f4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2hj8rtU)D4 After a long gradual climb - PH (https://flic.kr/p/2hj8rtU) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr
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Here it is in the Picos, ...
Is that with the Racktime rear FoldIt rack? That is the rack I bought for mine, and I bought the extra long rods to the seat stays for it.
https://www.racktime.com/en/racktime-products/system-carriers/racktime-product/foldit-adjustable
I put it on the bike to test fit, but otherwise have not used the rack for anything.
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Is that with the Racktime rear FoldIt rack?
No it's something cheap and unbranded that came from a local store, I had to modify it to take Tubus long struts. It doesn't interfere with the fold, but it does make it a bigger package. I remove it to bag it, it's not a big job.
I also have a Brompton and the fold is chalk and cheese, though IMO so is the ride, I can't imagine I'll ever choose to tour on it, though I've met several doing just that.
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I also have a Brompton and ...
I have been intrigued by the Brompton, but quite frankly I do not not need anything that folds that small, if I owned one I suspect I would ride it a half dozen times in the first few months and then never ride it again. I am retired, do not commute anywhere, I rarely use my Joey which is my only folder so I can't imagine that a second folder would get any additional use.
Photo is from my Joey with the Racktime FoldIt Adjustable rack. I have it set for the high position, there are three positions. But I removed the rack once I found that I had the seatstay rods that I needed for it. It looks like it should be set much lower, but I would need the bottom of a pannier to be above axle level for my Sram Dual Drive shifting mechanism to work.
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I don't have many photos showing the rack when it isn't obscured by panniers. It's fairly close to the wheel and also has the mudguard mounted to it, so it's either both or neither. I have some modified (Shortened) Ortlieb Front Rollers which suit it fine. Might get away with slightly larger, I haven't tried. Apologies for the unseasonal photo ;)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51611613688_ca30baa661_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mCK1Cq)Ride-4 (https://flic.kr/p/2mCK1Cq) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr
My first Joey had a full size Tubus rack fitted which did sit high, though I used the lower rail.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/8086/8587343624_5c51e7ed75_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/e5Qo5G)untitled (1 of 4) (https://flic.kr/p/e5Qo5G) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr
The other thing with folding bikes is the one size advantage, every home should have a guest bike and one anybody can ride adds to the versatility.
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A fascinating topic of conversation and a good look into peoples cycling profiles and choices.
I dont think I could have too many bikes. Not theseadays. I am not doing the mileage and the city where I live is being crowded in on all side by increasing growth in other cities and towns,and constant inbuilding. Having lived where I live for more years than I have expected,I am now tired of the routes to escape 'bush' than I was. I would have to ride some 20 miles to escape into open country. On the one shorter route it maybe 10 miles. My main cycling is now urban cycling(for shopping)with one or two excursions to break free of urban blight. I ride a recently purchased ladies Dawes Duchess. It has an upright ride and doesnt attract unwanted attention from bicycle thieves(I have,in the past,had two bicycles stolen)
I have and Orbit and a Thorn for overseas touring,but through age and health,now choose to tour overseas on a folder: Dahon.
I cant envisage just having one decent bike as a does-all. Where I now cycle I would have to have it festooned with 6 D locks. Then take anxiolytics(maybe its just me!)
Why has France stolen all the best cycling countryside and geography ;). Look at all the myriad of spider-web road networks,the varied scenery,respectful car drivers... ;D
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I am currently at nine, thus one for each day of the week plus two spares.
But a few of them rarely ridden. I have not ridden the two spares for at least two years.
Redundancies, listed below.
- My light touring bike can do anything that my rando bike does, thus the rando bike is redundant.
- And my light touring bike can do almost everything my road bike does, but the road bike is a bit quicker, and the road bike has a Ritchey Break Away frame that can be split for packing in a smaller case. Thus the road bike is almost redundant, but not quite. That said, I have never packed it in the smaller case to travel anywhere and I am not sure if I ever will. I got lucky and got the road bike for about one third of the manufacturer suggested retail, new in box with factory warranty. That is the sole reason I bought it, the price was screaming - take me home.
- My three speed is only used for errands, and same with my Bridgestone, thus the three speed is redundant.
- My 1961 Columbus tubing Italian bike is fitted with downtube friction shifters front and rear, and has a narrow range on the rear freewheel. Have not ridden it for a few years because I hate friction downtube for shifting the rear. I like the ride of the frame, but that is the only redeeming factor, thus this one is redundant.
Thus, four of the fleet could be considered redundant, I could get by with only five bikes, as follows:
- Folder
- Errand bike
- Light touring
- Medium touring
- Heavy touring.