Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: jul on October 09, 2021, 04:13:59 PM

Title: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on October 09, 2021, 04:13:59 PM
My tires show signs of wear.. They are from 2013-14, ride around 10.000 kms.

(https://i93.servimg.com/u/f93/19/07/93/69/th/img_2106.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19079369/408)
(https://i93.servimg.com/u/f93/19/07/93/69/th/img_2107.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19079369/409)

Do you think I have to replace them soon?
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Crackle
Post by: martinf on October 09, 2021, 06:45:01 PM
I reckon it depends on where you intend riding.

I still have the tyres I toured on in 2011, but have put them on my utility bike to finish them off. Mine are Supremes, so probably a bit more delicate than your Duremes. One of them has done over 12000 kms so far.

If I intended doing a long tour I would either (probably) fit new tyres before going, or (perhaps) take a spare in case a well-used tyre finally failed.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Crackle
Post by: jul on October 09, 2021, 09:44:48 PM
I'm on a road trip currently and even if I ride most of the time on the asphalt, i use as well gravel road.
I think to ride with a Crackle tires, you have most of chance to have flat tires..

And about Supreme Schwalbe, do you think it's a good choice on bike tour ?
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Crackle
Post by: martinf on October 10, 2021, 09:33:00 PM
And about Supreme Schwalbe, do you think it's a good choice on bike tour ?

The 50 mm width of Schwalbe Supreme has done me about 20000 kms of riding so far on 26" and 650B wheel sizes, with very few punctures and (so far) no tyres destroyed on rocks or other "features" while riding off-road. And none worn out completely, although the treads on the oldest are slightly cracked, but not as much as your Duremes. Cracking may be less of an issue with almost slick tyres.

But I may have been very lucky, Supremes are lighter and more fragile than Duremes, especially at the sidewalls. There have been reports of sidewall damage destroying Supremes.

Normally I ride on tarmac roads. But I quite often use gravel or sand paths, and have used some fairly rocky tracks, even with a full touring load. And I have done probably about 2000 kms of survey work while riding on Supremes, most of this was on mild off-road surfaces. 

If doing a lot of off-road riding I reckon Duremes are better. The sidewalls are more substantial and should resist rocks better, plus the tread ought to work a bit better in some situations (Supremes are more or less slick).

Getting Duremes here in France would be a problem since Brexit, as they are only available from SJS.

Whereas Supremes, although they seem to be discontinued, are (at the moment) still available from German online retailers such as Bike24.

Marathon Mondials are still in the Schwalbe catalogue in 26", these are heavier than both Supremes and Duremes and will probably roll less easily on tarmac than either, while probably being better for off-road riding.

There might be something equivalent from other manufacturers such as Continental.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Crackle
Post by: jul on October 11, 2021, 06:09:18 AM
Thanks Martin for this detailed answer
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Crackle
Post by: steve216c on October 11, 2021, 06:56:34 AM
I presume you mean cracked tyres not crackle?

UV (sunlight) can cause rubber to deteriorate. I have seen older tyres with otherwise good tread fail. I think this is more a worry than how many km you have ridden. UB damage happens over time, and depends on how tyres are stored. Leave a bike exposed to the elements and it can be rapid. But store your bike (or tyres) out of the sun and it will be a slower process.

Tyre tread itself is not as important on a bike than a car for grip if road riding. But if you can see threads exposed or even see the smart guard through cracks when pumped up to max, you ought to change ASAP. Id be worried about tyre blowout.

Im sure I have had 20,000 out of Schwalbe Marathon tyres before that were not uv damaged.

But for peace of mind, if your tyres are 10 years old, replace for new and ride another 10 on replacement tyres.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Crackle
Post by: martinf on October 11, 2021, 08:57:30 AM
Tyre tread itself is not as important on a bike than a car for grip if road riding. But if you can see threads exposed or even see the smart guard through cracks when pumped up to max, you ought to change ASAP. Id be worried about tyre blowout.

I've had tyres fail by blowing out at the tread once or twice, in the 1970's. And had one dangerous blowout with a nearly new but cheap tyre that melted around the wire bead after excessive braking.  Never (yet) had those problems with good quality modern tyres.

With modern tyres I have had several failures at the sidewall, generally with 16" tyres on my Bromptons after abusing them on survey work. So far these failures have been gradual, with a bulge forming that gives some warning before the tyre goes bang.

In my experience (again mainly with 16" tyres on survey work), kevlar beaded tyres are much less likely to fail at the bead than wire beaded tyres. Failure higher up on the sidewall has generally been caused by abrasion or impacts on rocks/pothole edges. In the three 26" x 2" models I know about I would rate Marathon Mondial best for this, Dureme second and Supreme last.

For rolling resistance I rate these 3 tyres the other way round, with Supreme first and Marathon Mondial last, with not very much difference between Supreme and Dureme. This is relative, IMO Marathon Mondial still rolls significantly better than a (modern) 26" x 2" Marathon Plus, which I also have some experience of.

Based on the photos of Julio's tyre, I would fit new ones if planning a tour of several thousand kilometres. Supremes if mainly on tarmac, Marathon Mondial (because Duremes seem to be unavailable) if doing a significant amount of riding on rocky tracks. But I'd be quite happy using Julio's old tyres for utility riding or shorter tours.

I generally discard tyres when:
- the tread is worn bare,
- I start getting lots of punctures due to the tread having too many small cracks and holes or just being worn too thin
- the tread has a large cut or (more frequent) the sidewall is damaged (cut or ruptured or abraded).

When I wear out a rear tyre I generally fit the new tyre on the front and put the partly worn front tyre on the back wheel to finish it, as I reckon a rear blowout would be less risky than on the front. After 12000 kms I haven't yet reached that stage with my oldest Supremes. 

Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on October 28, 2021, 02:02:14 PM
I've seen this one on a Gravel bike and it have a modern design than the Dureme.. I like it. 26x2 for 720gr, it have as well the green guard from Schwalbe.

https://www.bike24.com/p225240.html
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on October 28, 2021, 09:12:36 PM
I've seen this one on a Gravel bike and it have a modern design than the Dureme.. I like it. 26x2 for 720gr, it have as well the green guard from Schwalbe.

https://www.bike24.com/p225240.html

Yes, that is the wire bead version of the Marathon Mondial.

There is also the Kevlar bead version, which (unusually) is 20g heavier at 740g. But according to Schwalbe, it has better puncture and sidewall protection and is more durable, they recommend the Kevlar bead version for expeditions. Schwalbe say the rolling resistance is the same for both versions (IMO not quite as free-rolling as Duremes). The Kevlar bead version is more expensive:

https://www.bike24.com/p2361361.html

I reckon one of these two Marathon Mondial options would currently be the best alternative to Dureme if you reckon Supreme are too fragile. The weight quoted in the 2020 catalogue for a Supreme in 26" x 2.0" is 560g. IIRC Duremes in that size were 590g.

Extracts from the 2020 catalogue showing the Schwalbe ratings, for Marathon Mondial the first line is for the Kevlar bead version and the second line is for wire bead.

Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on October 29, 2021, 08:13:17 AM
Maybe my link (bike24) is wrong, I send a pics of the tire I've seen on the gravel bike.

(https://i93.servimg.com/u/f93/19/07/93/69/th/img-2010.jpg) (https://servimg.com/view/19079369/410)

It looks less off-road and more tarmac road.
Can you confirm me the model please
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on October 29, 2021, 09:04:17 AM
Maybe my link (bike24) is wrong, I send a pics of the tire I've seen on the gravel bike.
It looks less off-road and more tarmac road.
Can you confirm me the model please

Think that is a standard Marathon.

Quite a nice "basic" tyre, and relatively inexpensive. I've done a fair distance with this model on a 650B utility bike and 16" Bromptons. But a bit heavy at 970g (26"x2.0" size).

I noticed the difference in rolling resistance when I went from standard Marathon to Marathon Supreme on my utility bike. If Schwalbe's assessment is correct, it should roll about the same as a Marathon Mondial. But not so tough as the 740g Kevlar bead version of the latter.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on October 29, 2021, 10:01:11 AM
Ah OK, it's called Marathon Original. That's a shame it is too heavy 970gr..

Thanks Martin
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on October 29, 2021, 12:36:16 PM
For a Dureme replacement, with what is currently available in the Schwalbe range I reckon there are two logical choices:

- Supreme, while stocks are still available, and if you are prepared to risk a slighly lighter and slightly more fragile tyre, with the advantage of less rolling resistance on tarmac.

- Mondial if you want something tougher than the Supreme (and the Dureme), notably for touring with a significant amount of riding and tracks and paths. Personally, I would prefer the more expensive and slightly heavier Kevlar bead version of the Mondial rather than the wire bead version, as I reckon the sidewalls of the former are better protected against damage from rocks and potholes.

If you don't mind carrying the extra weight, another advantage of Kevlar bead tyres is that you could get new tyres now, but only fit them when you reckon the old ones are too worn (either for safety or if getting too many punctures).
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on November 12, 2021, 12:13:29 PM
As I've just replaced a Supreme tyre (see http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14398.0) I had a look to see what was available.

I found 26" x 50mm Supremes, so ordered a pair. When I fitted one, it was about 3 mm smaller on the radius (so tyre height, not measured the width) as compared to the old one. It as also marked "E bike ready" so there may be other changes compared to the old model. According to the description on the website the new model is supposed to have less rolling resistance than the old one, but I haven't really noticed any difference other than the size.

I also found a couple of other possible Dureme replacements still available on French web stores:

https://www.cyclo-randonnee.fr/pneu-98/pneu-schwalbe-marathon-mondial-tringle-souple--795.html
This site still has some stock of the discontinued 26" x 55 mm Mondial, wider and slightly heavier than the 26" x 50mm version of the Mondial that is still in the 2021 Schwalbe catalogue. With the extra width, they should perform better on sandy tracks. But they are expensive on this site.

https://www.increvable.com/pneu-velo-touring-tl-easy-schwalbe-marathon-almotion-dynamic-casing-hs453-26x2-15-etrto-55-559.html
who still have some stock of the 26" x 55mm version of the Almotion, This is still in the 2021 Schwalbe catalogue in 27.5" and 29" sizes but discontinued in 26". From the Schwalbe ratings, Almotion seems to be in between Supreme and Mondial in weight and capabilities. As above, the extra width might help a bit on soft surfaces.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on November 13, 2021, 09:13:30 AM
Hi Martin,

What do you think about the Schwalbe Big Apple? 26 x 2.15" for 615gr of memory.
It is not slick as the Supreme and relatively light.

Always in a spirit for ride in all condition, rough and asphalt roads, wet and dry weather..

Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on November 13, 2021, 01:57:51 PM
Hi Martin,

What do you think about the Schwalbe Big Apple? 26 x 2.15" for 615gr of memory.
It is not slick as the Supreme and relatively light.

Always in a spirit for ride in all condition, rough and asphalt roads, wet and dry weather..

According to the Schwalbe website the Big Apple 26 x 2.15" in the "Performance" line is 710g, not bad for a wire bead tyre. Heavier at 920g in the "Active" line, and probably less durable as well.

I've not had much experience of Big Apples, just got the 20" x 60 mm version on my trailer, where it is much better than the old moped tyres I had before.

To me, it looks relatively fragile compared to the Supreme and Dureme. The slick tread of the Supreme doesn't bother me, grip seems pretty good wet and dry on tarmac, and I'm not sure the Big Apple will do any better off road, except on loose surfaces like sand where the extra width of the 2.15" will help a bit. There is also a 26 x 2.3"/60 mm version of the Big Apple, which should do even better on loose surfaces if it will fit under your mudguards (it should fit OK in the Nomad frame and forks), the weight of this one is given as 780g.

With my Raven Tour, 55 mm is about the maximum I could fit while leaving adequate mudguard clearance. For mainly tarmac use with not too much off-road I intend sticking with 50 mm Schwalbe Marathon Supremes while I can still get them.

If I have the chance to do a tour involving more off-road riding I will use my 50 mm Duremes. If/when these are worn out my current choice for replacement would be the Marathon Mondial if it is still available, if possible the widest that will fit (so 2.15"/55 mm if I bought them today).

Comparing 2.15" Big Apple to Mondial, Big Apple is cheaper, rolls slightly better on tarmac (4.5 as compared to 4), and weighs less at 710g compared to 865g. The Mondial is (according to Schwalbe) better for on and off-road grip, protection and durability.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on November 13, 2021, 09:53:30 PM
Excellent comparative   :)

It's right Dureme is a very good tire.

About the Supreme, i'm scared on soft ground and on scree.

The Mondial is not bad but after 10.000 kms it can be square.

I'm looking for something as the Dureme (light, strong, less drag,) but with a modern design.
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on November 13, 2021, 11:30:05 PM
It's right Dureme is a very good tire.

Yes. Thats why Thorn had a batch specially made after they were discontinued

About the Supreme, i'm scared on soft ground and on scree.

The Supreme isn't dangerous on soft ground, it just means you have to get off and push a little bit sooner than with a tyre that has MTB type crampons (or is wider). On scree or rocky tracks, IMO the problem is possible damage to the sidewalls.

The Mondial is not bad but after 10.000 kms it can be square.

Maybe replace when it gets worn enough to affect handling ?

I'm looking for something as the Dureme (light, strong, less drag,) but with a modern design.

I don't think there is anything currently available in the 26" size that combines the strength/light weight/low rolling resistance of the Dureme. The new range of Schwalbe tyres is mostly either 27.5" (= the old 650B/584 size) or 29" (= fat 700C/622 tyres). 

The Almotion I mentioned in one of my messages on 12/11 is more "modern" than Supreme and Mondial, but although you can still find some stock it has been discontinued in the 26" size in the 2021 catalogue.

Looking more closely, the Increvable site still has two variants of the Almotion in 26 x 2.15. At a price.

This one is probably an older model, the tread looks rather like the Dureme. Increvable says it weighs 740g, so allowing for the 55 mm width, in between Dureme and Mondial:
https://www.increvable.com/26x2-15-pneumatique-schwalbe-marathon-almotion-hs453-dynamic-casing-26x2-15-etrto-55-559.html

This one is probably more recent, the tread is different. Increvable says it weighs 815g, so quite close to the weight of the Mondial in the same width:
https://www.increvable.com/pneu-velo-touring-tl-easy-schwalbe-marathon-almotion-dynamic-casing-hs453-26x2-15-etrto-55-559.html
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: jul on April 09, 2022, 05:01:15 PM
I bought Supreme tires (26X2") because they seem a good option for my use and safe on the wet condition, also discontinued by Schwalbe.

But if i'm planning to ride more on the rough roads, i've seen this tires by Surly, looks a good option as well to compare with the Marathon Mondial or the Dureme.

https://www.bike24.com/p2373564.html

Possible to get 26x2.5"
Title: Re: Schwalbe Dureme Cracked
Post by: martinf on April 09, 2022, 09:59:22 PM
Hi Martin,

What do you think about the Schwalbe Big Apple? 26 x 2.15" for 615gr of memory.
It is not slick as the Supreme and relatively light.

Always in a spirit for ride in all condition, rough and asphalt roads, wet and dry weather..

The only Big Apple tyres I have are in the 20 x 2,35" size. They seem a decent enough tyre.

Using the Schwalbe information, Big Apple tyres are rated as slightly slower than Supremes, slightly worse grip on road and slightly better off road, slightly worse as far as puncture protection is concerned and about the same for durability. As they are wider than your Duremes, they should work slightly better on loose sandy surfaces.

I got a stock of Supremes in when they were dropped from the catalogue, if I hadn't I would have considered using Big Apples instead for mainly on-road riding with some use of paths and tracks.

I now have 26 x 2.15" Mondials on one of my utility bikes. In the Evolution line with Kevlar beads, these are rated better than Supreme and Big Apple for everything except rolling resistance, where they are slower than both. If I was intending to do a tour with a lot of off-road riding or needed exceptional reliability, these would be my choice. But they are expensive and heavier than the Big Apple. And like Dureme and Supreme, they are no longer in the catalogue, although a couple of French websites still have stock. They were still in the 2022 catalogue in the slightly smaller 26 x 20" size last time I looked, but not sure if that is the Kevlar bead version or the cheaper wire bead version, which isn't rated so well for puncture protection and durability.