Thorn Cycles Forum

Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: Rouleur834 on May 12, 2021, 07:55:26 PM

Title: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 12, 2021, 07:55:26 PM
Hello all.

Hopefully I'm posting this in the correct area. Apologies to the Mod if not.

I'm taking delivery of my first Rohloff fitted bike on Saturday and I'm wondering what words of wisdom could be imparted by experienced users. I've done a lot of reading and picked-up some useful bits but any and all advice would be gratefully received. It seems to advisable to remove tension from the cranks when changing from 7 to 8 and the other way. Apparently the hub can seize if you don't? Read some interesting things about chain life. They seem to last a very long time compared to my SRAM or Shimano chains fitted to my 1x. I was having the bike serviced every six months, chain and indexing needed. Apparently not the case with Rohloff. Based on advice from various road gurus, I carried a chain breaker tool and quick link in my tool kit in case of a chain breaking whilst miles from home. Would anyone do this with a Rohloff for short one day rides?

Thank you in anticipation.

Best

Ray

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on May 12, 2021, 09:03:01 PM
Welcome to the Rohloff owners' club. :) I very briefly ease the pedalling pressure when changing between any gears (or often two or three). The Rohloff manual mentions doing the gear changes when the cranks are vertical as that's when there's minimal turning force on the cranks - I may well be subconsciously doing that. I've sometimes found that a very hurried shift into or out of 11th gear and result in a mis-shift to a wrong gear.

The likelihood of the chain breaking is minimal although this may depend on the chain manufacturer. You'll find that KMC single speed or 8 speed chains are popular here (and, I think, are stronger than 9 speed or higher chains) and Thorn recommend using a suprisingly slack chain (see page 12 of http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf ). Rohloff are also very particular about the chainline and the bike should have been set up accordingly. Not only does this reduce the risk of damage to the hub but also reduces lateral bending of the chain.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: WorldTourer on May 12, 2021, 09:06:59 PM
Let us know what frame this will be exactly. That has a strong bearing on the advice that people will impart.

As for tension, the key thing to understand about shifting on a Rohloff is that you donít move your legs. It is the opposite of a derailleur system; on those you have to pedal to switch gears. On a Rohloff, on the other hand, you shift without any pushing on the pedals whatsoever. (This is a key advantage Ė it allows you to shift down while waiting at traffic lights, or avoid wiping out on a suddenly challenging uphill.) As long as you donít push with your feet for that split-second where you are shifting gears, you donít have to worry about the hub seizing, it is a pretty sturdy piece of equipment.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 12, 2021, 09:33:52 PM
Let us know what frame this will be exactly. That has a strong bearing on the advice that people will impart.

As for tension, the key thing to understand about shifting on a Rohloff is that you donít move your legs. It is the opposite of a derailleur system; on those you have to pedal to switch gears. On a Rohloff, on the other hand, you shift without any pushing on the pedals whatsoever. (This is a key advantage Ė it allows you to shift down while waiting at traffic lights, or avoid wiping out on a suddenly challenging uphill.) As long as you donít push with your feet for that split-second where you are shifting gears, you donít have to worry about the hub seizing, it is a pretty sturdy piece of equipment.

Hello and thank you. It will be a Mercury Mk3.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 12, 2021, 09:35:19 PM
Welcome to the Rohloff owners' club. :) I very briefly ease the pedalling pressure when changing between any gears (or often two or three). The Rohloff manual mentions doing the gear changes when the cranks are vertical as that's when there's minimal turning force on the cranks - I may well be subconsciously doing that. I've sometimes found that a very hurried shift into or out of 11th gear and result in a mis-shift to a wrong gear.

The likelihood of the chain breaking is minimal although this may depend on the chain manufacturer. You'll find that KMC single speed or 8 speed chains are popular here (and, I think, are stronger than 9 speed or higher chains) and Thorn recommend using a suprisingly slack chain (see page 12 of http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf ). Rohloff are also very particular about the chainline and the bike should have been set up accordingly. Not only does this reduce the risk of damage to the hub but also reduces lateral bending of the chain.

Thank you - much appreciated. Some bedtime reading!
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Andre Jute on May 12, 2021, 09:39:03 PM
Welcome to the club.

Be prepared for an extended running-in period.

As Chalo Colina, a sometime Boeing toolmaker and the designer of the 48 spoke Rohloff wheel, said, "A Rohloff is run in just about the time a Shimano Nexus hub lies itself down to die."
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on May 12, 2021, 10:27:02 PM
Hello and thank you. It will be a Mercury Mk3.
Nice bike (I've got one ;D). You might be interested in this http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13973.0 to further improve the chain longevity and protect yourself from chain muck.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on May 13, 2021, 12:05:26 AM
You can spend loads of time thinking about it then spend some more thinking about why you bothered. 
It's as close to fit and forget as a gearing system can be.  You don't have to adjust the chain anything like as often as you'll think you do, you don't have to pamper it much at all, though with a three grand bike it's hard not too.  It is a little different to ride, habits take a while to break, it does no harm to ride it like any other bike, but that won't get the best from it.  For a while you will still change down for a junction and get in the right gear at the bottom of a hill, then over the crest change up just a couple at a time rather than a handful. Then of course you jump back on a derailleur bike and keep stopping at traffic lights in top gear... I didn't realise how different being able to change anytime would be.
And the Mercury is a great bike, Sports Tourer sums it up for me, but others use them in different ways.
Couple of Rohloff specifics - Buy at least the 250ml size if the two oils, anything smaller doesn't make economic sense, I'd also add two syringes, a clean and dirty. Once it's bought, the cost of an oil change is minimal, I do one after the first 1,000 miles or so, then into the regular routine.  But really, it's a guide not a religion, a couple of months early because you have some free time or are going on a big tour, a month late because you're busy... it isn't going to matter.  I also like to keep a couple of spares in stock, couple of cables, couple of drain plugs, new chain, that way you have it when you need it.
Re toolkit - I don't bother on short rides, but when away from home carry a chain tool and a short bit of spare chain, just remember, unlike a derailleur, if you damage and remove a couple of links it won't fit!
Take the wheel in and out a couple of times so it's familiar when you have to do it roadside and that's all I can think of, just go enjoy.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 13, 2021, 02:56:47 PM
You can spend loads of time thinking about it then spend some more thinking about why you bothered. 
It's as close to fit and forget as a gearing system can be.  You don't have to adjust the chain anything like as often as you'll think you do, you don't have to pamper it much at all, though with a three grand bike it's hard not too.  It is a little different to ride, habits take a while to break, it does no harm to ride it like any other bike, but that won't get the best from it.  For a while you will still change down for a junction and get in the right gear at the bottom of a hill, then over the crest change up just a couple at a time rather than a handful. Then of course you jump back on a derailleur bike and keep stopping at traffic lights in top gear... I didn't realise how different being able to change anytime would be.
And the Mercury is a great bike, Sports Tourer sums it up for me, but others use them in different ways.
Couple of Rohloff specifics - Buy at least the 250ml size if the two oils, anything smaller doesn't make economic sense, I'd also add two syringes, a clean and dirty. Once it's bought, the cost of an oil change is minimal, I do one after the first 1,000 miles or so, then into the regular routine.  But really, it's a guide not a religion, a couple of months early because you have some free time or are going on a big tour, a month late because you're busy... it isn't going to matter.  I also like to keep a couple of spares in stock, couple of cables, couple of drain plugs, new chain, that way you have it when you need it.
Re toolkit - I don't bother on short rides, but when away from home carry a chain tool and a short bit of spare chain, just remember, unlike a derailleur, if you damage and remove a couple of links it won't fit!
Take the wheel in and out a couple of times so it's familiar when you have to do it roadside and that's all I can think of, just go enjoy.

PH - thank you. Top tip about the gear change! Sports Tourer will suit my requirements very nicely. I'm probably too long I the tooth to start roaming the world on a bike. Started cycling a few years ago to control diabetes but found a new lifestyle. I'll do as you suggest with regard to the rear wheel and then just ride. No procrastination, just do it  :)
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: steve216c on May 13, 2021, 04:36:06 PM
I have to agree with the tips all given this far. The Rohloff hub may be a complicated piece of machinery but it is not terribly difficult to self service. If anything it is easier to keep in check than a standard derailleur set up. The unfamiliarity was daunting when I did my first oil change after buying a 2nd hand bike in Autumn 2019, but Rohloff have put some excellent self help videos on YouTube as have several independent pike fanatics. Iím already a veteran of 3 oils changes in total (one was for a friend) and have my next oil change due in a month. It is easy once youíve done the first.

Certainly removing the wheel is slightly different to a non geared hub, but IMHO easy enough too. But PHĎs tip is a good one. You know it will be raining and dark and messy when you have the first roadside need to remove that wheel. But practice a couple of times at home on a dry and sunny day, and it will be second nature. Rohloff almost certainly have a video on that too. And once you know how, it is also easy to repeat.

Having a small stock of Rohloff specific  spares is no bad idea unless your local bike shop is a dealer. For many we are too niche for them to carry spares in stock. I changed my gear cable outers to take Standard Shimano gear cables. So I have one cable fitting all my non Rohloff bikes too. But a decent amount of gear change oil will last you several years at a fraction of the cost of the single portion sets. Worth considering or purchasing together with other Rohloff riders to share.

Finally, running in. I purchased my bike with an estimated 10,000km use already on the hub. In the 9000+ I have added to it, it has either got quieter and smoother or my hearing has got worse. I think the former is the case though. Smoother and quieter and definitely less maintenance than its Deore powered stablemate

Best addition I added has been a Hebie Chainglider. I only regret not buying it earlier in my ownership. By encapsulating from the elements the oil stays clean and on the chain, so little need for regular chain cleaning and reapplying oil. And less crud in the drivechain means slower wear through friction.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: geocycle on May 13, 2021, 05:52:27 PM
Great bike, great gear system, whatís not to like! As others have said the rohloff is close to fit and forget. When I got mine I was still in a tinkering mindset, constantly checking chain tension and cables. Iíve learned that more is less, donít worry about chain tension as long as itís not too tight and cables last a long time. An annual oil change and replace parts when they are worn out. Otherwise just ride.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on May 13, 2021, 07:38:44 PM
Welcome welcome.

I've not much to add to the above tips & comments apart from noting that this forum is a wealth of information all given freely and with good humour.

By joining this group you have automatically gained 100+ friends.

Best
Matt
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: GamblerGORD649 on May 13, 2021, 11:55:30 PM
Nice choice, have a great ride. I hope you got the simple EX box shifter. You will never use derailleurs again. Myself, my other bikes are both SA , 3 spd and 5w. I always fill with 25 ml, makes no sense to not to. I let mine drain out overnight. There is 37/ 38 ml every time, so over half the oil is still in there. I'm glad I got a bolt/ nut one that doesn't leak like the QR.

Mine has 17,300 troublefree miles now. Finally loosened up last year. LOL. I still haven't touched the shift cables. The spares will be old before I use them. I have a DIY mount for the shifter on the TT, where it belongs, IMO. I hate cables flopping around grinding the paint and getting stressed. I can shift with either hand.
I agree, always kind of take your weight off the pedals to shift, especially when stopped.
I carried spares and all the tools needed on my 2 tours. I clumsily broke a spoke with my lock on tour. Took me 3 hours to fix, with the spare spokes I carry too, with a perfect setup under a bridge.

My 1/8" chains were only getting 3,000 miles, even with my DIY CF full cover. So I finally tried leaving the factory grease alone, 2,000 miles with little wear. I carry a chain tool, but it only gets used when first mounting one. I never go 2 miles without my pockets full of tools. 6 Allen keys including the 4/5/6 tri-arm, 1/2", 7/8/9/10/10/15 mm wrenches. Also a whole bunch more sockets, BB tools, 3/8" ratchet, 1/4" drive screwdriver, etc. I also took a cable cutter, spoke wrench, oil change kit, grease, nuts, bolts, shoelaces to tie up stuff, dodads.  I also have a threaded HS that needs 2 wrenches, with the other ends modified. Nobody has more metal on their bike, LOL. Not saying you have to, but I did use darn near all of them. I did let the oil change slide both times tho, 4,200 miles in SE Asia. Plus my 2 panier/bin load is ALL the stuff I put in my suitcase on trips. 6 lbs of locks, 3 coats, earmuffs, gloves, the list goes on and on ...

My front hub is a SA XL-FDD dyno DRUM brake. This IS fit and forget, ZERO fiddling or worries about stopping. After 26,000 miles it's now on it's 3rd roadster bike. Now it's finally getting to the end of the pads life. I built a new wheel the same for the tour bike. So I'll also upgrade with new lights.
I always get in 14th gear on big dips and power up until I run out of momentum. Then downshift 3 or 4 at a time likely.
 Have fun. >>>
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: buffet on May 14, 2021, 05:12:50 AM
GamblerGORD649, could you share a picture of your shifter DIY mount?

I hate having the shifter on the bars due to the messy cable floppiness, trying to figure out an ideal alternative.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: GamblerGORD649 on May 14, 2021, 06:51:42 AM
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-discussion/1215648-mudguards-look-good-4.html#post21764056 >>> Post 80.
You have to squint to see the 3 arrangements.
I have no clue how to attach pics here.
I also discussed this in one of my few posts here last Dec. 31.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14029.msg104350#msg104350

I also have 4 YT videos under ID GamblerGordo. The latest one shows my tour bike setup at the end, with the SA-XL-RD5w. Don't load with a mobile, LOL. I just played it and it wouldn't jump to the end, WTH. The other video end shows the bike as new with the bare frame.
Hey wait buffet, that was you I replied to back then. LOL. I still don't have better pics.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: steve216c on May 14, 2021, 08:12:54 AM
Posting pictures is not so intuative as one might hope.

Go to the website where your picture is hosted and display the picture. Right click over picture and you should see an option to copy link to picture. This might vary according to browser, but e.g. the horrible Microsoft Edge has copy image link "copy image link"

Then look at you message window. Just above the smilies and below the BOLD button there is the option to insert image. When you click that it comes up with [ img][/img ] and the cursor should blink in the middle of the two tags. Click CTRL-V to paste your copied link. Then hit preview and you should be able to see your image appear.

so it looks like this [ img]https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1124/20200903_153009_c1352ac82127b54d6112c588f4ec4dc57a1db999.jpg[/img]

I added blank spaces in the image tag so it would not display the image but see it as text. But by removing my intentional syntax error i would then get:

(https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikeforums.net-vbulletin/2000x1124/20200903_153009_c1352ac82127b54d6112c588f4ec4dc57a1db999.jpg)
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 14, 2021, 04:28:25 PM
A massive thank you to all of you who responded with sage advice and numerous signposts to useful information. I'm sure my transition to life with a Rohloff will be a lot easier due to your input.

Now to tackle the issues about tubeless or tubes and clipless or flats. That's for another time and another place.

Thanks again

Best

Ray
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Mike Ayling on May 15, 2021, 12:43:18 AM
I have to agree with the tips all given this far. The Rohloff hub may be a complicated piece of machinery but it is not terribly difficult to self service. If anything it is easier to keep in check than a standard derailleur set up. The unfamiliarity was daunting when I did my first oil change after buying a 2nd hand bike in Autumn 2019, but Rohloff have put some excellent self help videos on YouTube as have several independent pike fanatics. Iím already a veteran of 3 oils changes in total (one was for a friend) and have my next oil change due in a month. It is easy once youíve done the first.

Certainly removing the wheel is slightly different to a non geared hub, but IMHO easy enough too. But PHĎs tip is a good one. You know it will be raining and dark and messy when you have the first roadside need to remove that wheel. But practice a couple of times at home on a dry and sunny day, and it will be second nature. Rohloff almost certainly have a video on that too. And once you know how, it is also easy to repeat.

Having a small stock of Rohloff specific  spares is no bad idea unless your local bike shop is a dealer. For many we are too niche for them to carry spares in stock. I changed my gear cable outers to take Standard Shimano gear cables. So I have one cable fitting all my non Rohloff bikes too. But a decent amount of gear change oil will last you several years at a fraction of the cost of the single portion sets. Worth considering or purchasing together with other Rohloff riders to share.

Finally, running in. I purchased my bike with an estimated 10,000km use already on the hub. In the 9000+ I have added to it, it has either got quieter and smoother or my hearing has got worse. I think the former is the case though. Smoother and quieter and definitely less maintenance than its Deore powered stablemate

Best addition I added has been a Hebie Chainglider. I only regret not buying it earlier in my ownership. By encapsulating from the elements the oil stays clean and on the chain, so little need for regular chain cleaning and reapplying oil. And less crud in the drivechain means slower wear through friction.
Certainly removing the wheel is slightly different to a non geared hub, but IMHO easy enough too.

EASIER than a derailleur IMO

Mike
Another happy Mercury owner.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on May 15, 2021, 10:51:09 AM
EASIER than a derailleur IMO
I agree, particularly reinstalling it and not having to deal with the derailleur, much easier to keep your hands clean as well. 
I'd also heap praise on the Thorn dropout and use of the longer Rohloff tab on the OEM plate.  I don't think I appreciated how good it is till I used some alternatives. 
Anyway, it's Saturday, hope Rouleur is enjoying the new toy and it's not raining too hard wherever they are.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 15, 2021, 03:30:58 PM
EASIER than a derailleur IMO
I agree, particularly reinstalling it and not having to deal with the derailleur, much easier to keep your hands clean as well. 
I'd also heap praise on the Thorn dropout and use of the longer Rohloff tab on the OEM plate.  I don't think I appreciated how good it is till I used some alternatives. 
Anyway, it's Saturday, hope Rouleur is enjoying the new toy and it's not raining too hard wherever they are.

Rouleur834, AKA Ray of Chipping Sodbury, is a very happy bunny. Bike delivered this afternoon by Steve from Thorn. I am very impressed by the build quality, far exceeded my expectations. Happy days! Busy doing the paperwork; insured by TSB, registered Rohloff hub and added to National Cycle Database. Pedal fitting and photoshoot will have to wait until tomorrow, COVID jab part-deux awaits.....

Take care all and thanks again.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Captain Bubble on May 19, 2021, 04:24:52 PM
Quote
Rouleur834, AKA Ray of Chipping Sodbury, is a very happy bunny. Bike delivered this afternoon by Steve from Thorn. I am very impressed by the build quality, far exceeded my expectations. Happy days! Busy doing the paperwork; insured by TSB, registered Rohloff hub and added to National Cycle Database. Pedal fitting and photoshoot will have to wait until tomorrow, COVID jab part-deux awaits.....

Take care all and thanks again.

I would suggest getting a Hebie Chainglider to keep the chain clean. They are not that expensive about £35-40. It will massively increase the life of the chain and keep it clean. Also no more oil and muck getting on hands, clothes and other surfaces. Keeps your bike a lot cleaner as well as you don't have the problem of lube/oil and muck from the chain getting onto the rear wheel and frame particular when it's wet. With the Chainglider I got about 18k miles out of the first chain on one of my Rohloff hub bikes. It was a good chain though the KMC X-1 silver specifically for IHG and the Rohloff but it is sadly NLA. Also when you park the bike i.e. over night or store it, try to do so with the filler plug in the hub uppermost. Mines never leaked but it adds piece of mind for me.
I don't miss derailleur geared bikes one bit. No longer have to do all that awful maintenance which was a chore I grew to hate. The Rohloff doesn't require any of that. You spend a lot more time riding than maintaining and it's so easy to ride. It will take a few thousand miles to run in and the more you ride the better the hub becomes. Do keep up with the oil changes depending on how many miles you ride. Happy days. Enjoy.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on May 19, 2021, 06:35:37 PM
With the Chainglider I got about 18k miles out of the first chain on one of my Rohloff hub bikes. It was a good chain though the KMC X-1 silver specifically for IHG and the Rohloff but it is sadly NLA.
I get that from a chain without a Chaingluider ;)
But, I'm posting to say the X-1 chain is still available, it's just been re-named the E-1.
Quote
Also when you park the bike i.e. over night or store it, try to do so with the filler plug in the hub uppermost. Mines never leaked but it adds piece of mind for me.
Has anyone ever had oil leak via the filler screw?  it's supplied with an oil seal thread lock already applied, there'd be something seriously wrong to have a leak there.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: martinf on May 19, 2021, 06:52:56 PM
Has anyone ever had oil leak via the filler screw?  it's supplied with an oil seal thread lock already applied, there'd be something seriously wrong to have a leak there.

Not yet had a leak there. And very minimal seepage elsewhere.

I suppose it could happen if (like I sometimes do) you re-use the filler screw  and the threadlock compound has worn off, rather than fit a new one as recommended.

Compared to old oil-lubricated Sturmey Archer hubs the Rohloff is almost sealed.  With the former, I try and remember to park the two bikes concerned with the left side leaning against the wall, this reduces the seepage through the large bearing on the RHS of Sturmey Archer hubs.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: WorldTourer on May 19, 2021, 07:34:15 PM
Note that Thorn/SJS does not endorse the Hebie Chainglider and its staff have been pretty disappointed with the product, just like I ultimately was. SJS does stock them, but in correspondence with them they might try to talk you out of getting one, and I wish I had taken that advice from them.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on May 19, 2021, 09:24:18 PM
I suppose it could happen if (like I sometimes do) you re-use the filler screw  and the threadlock compound has worn off, rather than fit a new one as recommended.
I also re-use, though I have a couple of spares and clean and re-apply a seal lock between uses.  I had the gunk for another purpose, it'd be a long term investment otherwise.
If I worry about leakage it isn't so much what comes out, but what can get in by the same route.  My oldest hub needs sorting, more leaks out than I ever put in!
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Rouleur834 on May 19, 2021, 09:39:37 PM
Update. Three short rides, adjusting riding position, done and so glad I chose the Rohloff and that I did some research before riding with one. Top tip about the gear changing; change whilst stationery, change two or more at a time, unload the cranks when changing. Noise! Yes, a tad noisy but nothing untoward. Would have concerned me if I was not aware of it and just rode the bike.

Good to find a genuinely useful forum. VMT.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on May 20, 2021, 02:00:11 AM
...Noise! Yes, a tad noisy but nothing untoward. Would have concerned me if I was not aware of it and just rode the bike.
...

I only notice noise in lowest seven gears, not in 8 to 14.

Gears 1-7 are like a low range on a 4X4 truck, the third planetary gear is used for 1-7.

Quieter after a few thousand km and a few oil changes.  But in gear 7 the noise will always be there to remind you that you have a Rohloff.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Captain Bubble on May 20, 2021, 02:50:07 AM
Note that Thorn/SJS does not endorse the Hebie Chainglider and its staff have been pretty disappointed with the product, just like I ultimately was. SJS does stock them, but in correspondence with them they might try to talk you out of getting one, and I wish I had taken that advice from them.

I suspect it is because their own brand chain rings typically used on chainset with Rohloff hub are a little too fat for the chainglider until they wear down slightly and bed in, then every thing is fine. Or it could be they don't know how to fit them properly? At first mine was a little temperamental but now I have mastered fitment of it I wouldn't ride without it on the chain even in summer as it protects the chain from dust grit and other crud and correspondingly stops muck getting over the rear wheel and frame and anywhere else that comes into contact with the chain. It keeps the bike and you a lot cleaner. Now I have experience of the chainglider it is easy to fit and remove and pretty much silent in operation.  I would highly recommend fitting one. Just get a front chain ring of suitable thickness which I think is about 3mm. Surly do stainless steel ones. I have a Thorn one which was I think 5mm which initially was a bit tight, not really, but all is fine now. The glider does it's job very well.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on May 20, 2021, 09:13:01 AM
Note that Thorn/SJS does not endorse the Hebie Chainglider and its staff have been pretty disappointed with the product, just like I ultimately was. SJS does stock them, but in correspondence with them they might try to talk you out of getting one, and I wish I had taken that advice from them.
Genuinely interested to hear more about the negative opinions of Chainglider use.
I confess to being a big fan and long time user.
But respect SJS and other folks views.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Andre Jute on May 20, 2021, 05:40:30 PM
Taiwan Central Mountains.jpg

Lovely photo, Cap. Mind a small compositional tip? Put the red bike on the extreme left of the frame, then the eye will glide across the photo and snap back to the red bike. In the centre it is too much like blunt object. If the majority of your audience is Japanese and others who read right to left, put the red bike on the extreme right of the piccie.

However, if you ever repaint the bike gunmetal grey or black, divide the photo in three vertically, and put the bike just on the inside edge of the lefthand block. Advice for yellow bikes and white or cream* bikes is the same as for red bikes.

*About twenty years ago, or so, a Copenhagen bike maker, who had the services of the admirable industrial designer Marc Newson, offered a colour option that was cream -- they may have called it Buttermilk --, with micro-bubbles in the paint, which made it luminous from any angle.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: jrn on June 14, 2021, 11:24:09 AM
ok.... I am going to lead with my chin and ask question that will make some on here cringe but here goes....

When I need to remove my rear wheel to mend a puncture, although it is sometimes possible to patch a tube with the wheel still in the frame, should I leave enough slack in the chain so that I can, just run the chain off the sprocket to avoid having to use the EBB or split the chain?
Is that too much chain slack?

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on June 14, 2021, 11:33:18 AM
You should be able to lift the wheel clear of the frame without doing anything to the chain.  I can do this even with the chain at it's tightest, I could do it with my Alfine Mercury even when the chain was tighter than I'd have liked.
On my bike that has a Rohloff in horizontal dropouts, I can unship the chain from the sprocket, when the chain is the tightest I'm happy with. To do this you only need to get the first link alongside the tooth and gently rotate. 
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: jrn on June 14, 2021, 01:52:06 PM
Thanks PH.
I warned you it was a daft question.......
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on June 14, 2021, 02:48:42 PM
I've also had no problems removing the rear wheel of my Mercury. First remove the wheel from the drop-outs and then move it forwards slightly to lift the chain off the sprocket. The process is helped by having a relatively slack chain as recommended on page 12 of the Thorn's Owners manual http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on June 14, 2021, 03:31:09 PM

"Ok.... I am going to lead with my chin and ask question that will make some on here cringe but here goes...."

Don't hesitate to ask what you may consider a simple question. I've seen the same question answered in slightly different ways that has greatly increased my knowledge.
The only silly question is the one that isn't asked.

Best

Matt
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on June 14, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
ok.... I am going to lead with my chin and ask question that will make some on here cringe but here goes....

When I need to remove my rear wheel to mend a puncture, although it is sometimes possible to patch a tube with the wheel still in the frame, should I leave enough slack in the chain so that I can, just run the chain off the sprocket to avoid having to use the EBB or split the chain?
Is that too much chain slack?

You did not mention brand or model, I am assuming it is a Thorn bike and has an eccentric bottom bracket for chain adjustment.  The rear dropouts should be angled such that the wheel will easily come out of the dropouts with a chain that gets looser as you extract the wheel.  Chain would then be adjusted properly when you put the wheel back in.

I did not cringe. The dumb question is the one not asked.

If you have any medical type disposable gloves, they can come in handy any time you need to handle the chain.  I do not dispose of them, keep re-using them.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: jrn on June 14, 2021, 03:51:47 PM
thanks everyone - that is helpful.
in an odd way, will help me a "rule of thumb" to adjust chain tension.  It will be just loose enough to allow the rear wheel to be removed - I going to have look on my Raven Tour this evening to see how well it will work.....
Stay safe
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on June 14, 2021, 04:30:57 PM
Thanks PH.
I warned you it was a daft question.......
You're welcome, though I didn't consider it a daft question. 
There is a learning curve, the hardest part is maybe un-learning all the things that concerned you on other bikes.  The chain on one of my bikes is a bit slack, I noticed it about 500 miles ago, I might get round to tightening it this week.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on June 14, 2021, 09:38:37 PM
thanks everyone - that is helpful.
in an odd way, will help me a "rule of thumb" to adjust chain tension.  It will be just loose enough to allow the rear wheel to be removed - I going to have look on my Raven Tour this evening to see how well it will work.....
Stay safe

Somewhere in all the writtings on Thorn Rohloff bikes, the two pointy bolts that hold the eccentric in place need to make clear depressions that are far enough from each other that the depressions do not form a groove. I have about 2 to 2.5mm between each depression in my eccentric.  If I can't move the eccentric that far to adjust the chain, I do not adjust it.  Thus, mine often has a lot of slack before adjusting.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on August 03, 2021, 04:33:04 PM
Hello the Forum! This is my first post, and thank you to @Danneaux for un-bodging the registration gearbox. Writing from Berkeley California...

I'm also a first-time Rohloff rider, just finishing up the build of a new frame. Pictures to follow at some point... but the short story is a friend built me a custom steel frame around the general parameters of my two Rivendells, one a 65cm road bike the other a 66cm singlespeed. With longer chainstays and a middle frame tube to add rigidity. We used Paragon rear dropouts with the nice slot for the Rohloff torque tab, and I'm running an external gear mech.

The advice in this forum was VERY helpful in getting the final bits squared away. Getting the cable housing length right was stressful, since you only get one go when cutting, but the shifter feels good and I expect the mechanism will loosen as it breaks in. I'm enjoying the ability to shift at a stop, and to shift over several gear ratios in a single twist. And as the hub has been in storage for four years, and unknown on the shelf before I Bought it, I figure I'll change oil before going for a long first ride.

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on August 03, 2021, 06:57:14 PM
A welcome from me, Andrew.
Interesting looking frame, what size is that?  Pretty big judging by the head tube. I've seen Rivendell with the extra tube and wondered what they rode like... Is that the model it's based on.
What BB are you using?
be interesting to see it built up.

I do like that aesthetic, just never enough to consider paying for it! Not sure about the threaded forks, adjusting threaded headsets is a job I was happy to leave behind.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on August 03, 2021, 07:18:43 PM
It's 66cm from BB to top tube, as measured along seat tube. Tall, indeed, to match its rider! Five years ago, I asked Grant at Rivendell if he would make a custom with support for a Rohloff hub integrated into the frame (I thought the long torque arm fixed to left chainstay was ugly). Grant declined, and so I turned to a friend and budding framebulder in Portland Oregon, Mark Guglielmana, and we took the best elements of my two Rivendells and innovated on a new design. That's an original Rivendell fork on my bike, but re-raked for loaded touring. I'm perfectly comfortable with threaded headsets, no issue there. And... well, I'll let it wait for the pictures. I made use of the Nitto stem in mounting the twist shifter.

The added stiffness of the frame from the middle tube does not feel harsh at all, and it has reduced flex when I'm standing on the pedals. I'm running 700x44 Compass Snoqualmie Pass tires, which are delightful, and also absorb impacts to a good extent. The BB is just a simple non-eccentric Shimano. I may upgrade to a Phil for chainline adjustability, but am not in a hurry. I use a Surly Singleator to take up the slack.

Here's a (very) partial build picture, to give a better sense of scale.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on August 03, 2021, 08:08:24 PM
Even bigger than I imagined and with a horizontal TT there would have been a lot of space in that triangle!
Are the bosses placed for specific brakes?
I must admit your choice of using a tensioner wouldn't have been mine, for aesthetics as much as anything else. I run a Rohloff tensioner on a folder and it's never once been an issue, and there's been a couple of round the World record holders run IGH's and tensioners, it just wouldn't be my choice if starting with a blank sheet.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on August 03, 2021, 08:42:42 PM
Even bigger than I imagined and with a horizontal TT there would have been a lot of space in that triangle!
Are the bosses placed for specific brakes?
I must admit your choice of using a tensioner wouldn't have been mine, for aesthetics as much as anything else. I run a Rohloff tensioner on a folder and it's never once been an issue, and there's been a couple of round the World record holders run IGH's and tensioners, it just wouldn't be my choice if starting with a blank sheet.
This bike is destined to offend and attract! :-) I wanted a single-cog tensioner with easy chainline adjustment. The Surly provides that, and I can use it either pressing down, or pressing up (UP preferred).

Brakes are MAFAC RAID centerpulls, with new bushings I turned. Other bits: Nitto Albastache bars, Nitto two-bolt seat post. The obvious Brooks saddle, yet to be broken in. There's a SON widebody hub up front, which will power an Edeluxe light in front and a red taillight in the rear. Aluminium fenders fore and aft, and a bespoke front rack with mounts for panniers.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on August 03, 2021, 09:29:10 PM
This bike is destined to offend and attract! :-) I wanted a single-cog tensioner with easy chainline adjustment. The Surly provides that, and I can use it either pressing down, or pressing up (UP preferred).
;D ;D ;D
I'm never offended by anyone's bike choices, not necessarily attracted to them either, but always interested in the what and the why.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on August 03, 2021, 10:13:06 PM
Getting the cable housing length right was stressful, since you only get one go when cutting, but the shifter feels good and I expect the mechanism will loosen as it breaks in. I'm enjoying the ability to shift at a stop, and to shift over several gear ratios in a single twist. And as the hub has been in storage for four years, and unknown on the shelf before I Bought it, I figure I'll change oil before going for a long first ride.
The shifter will loosen up but did you pack the external shift box with grease before putting the cover on? My Mercury has always been a smooth shifter and I wonder if Thorn's filling the ex-box with grease was a contributory factor.

It's not likely that the Rohloff hub will have lost significant oil during storage. I would add maybe 5 ccs of oil to be on the safe side then clock up some miles. The first few oil flushes has a silvery glint because of the fine metal particles generated when any residual rough edges on the gears get worn off by usage. Those particles also probably help polish the surfaces. An oil change at 1000 miles is likely to be beneficial but an oil change at 100 miles might not.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on August 03, 2021, 10:41:33 PM
Getting the cable housing length right was stressful, since you only get one go when cutting, but the shifter feels good and I expect the mechanism will loosen as it breaks in. I'm enjoying the ability to shift at a stop, and to shift over several gear ratios in a single twist. And as the hub has been in storage for four years, and unknown on the shelf before I Bought it, I figure I'll change oil before going for a long first ride.
The shifter will loosen up but did you pack the external shift box with grease before putting the cover on? My Mercury has always been a smooth shifter and I wonder if Thorn's filling the ex-box with grease was a contributory factor.
Yes, after reading the suggestion here, I packed with white grease. It makes perfect sense, I'm surprised any would run the external gear mech dry, or even with just a light coat on the bushing.

Quote
It's not likely that the Rohloff hub will have lost significant oil during storage. I would add maybe 5 ccs of oil to be on the safe side then clock up some miles. The first few oil flushes has a silvery glint because of the fine metal particles generated when any residual rough edges on the gears get worn off by usage. Those particles also probably help polish the surfaces. An oil change at 1000 miles is likely to be beneficial but an oil change at 100 miles might not.
Okay, thanks. I know it has oil inside, checked that already. I'll add a bit more and get some miles on it.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on August 04, 2021, 12:21:00 AM
Hello the Forum! This is my first post, and thank you to @Danneaux for un-bodging the registration gearbox. Writing from Berkeley California...

I'm also a first-time Rohloff rider, just finishing up the build of a new frame. ....
And as the hub has been in storage for four years, and unknown on the shelf before I Bought it, I figure I'll change oil before going for a long first ride.

Rohloffs come from the factory without oil in them.  So, if that is a new hub, add 15ml of oil.

Assuming that the hub did not come from SJS, it would have a 16T cog on it.  And if your chainring also has an even number of teeth, read this:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

The point of that link is that every other link elongates.  I put a small notch in one cog tooth and one chainring tooth, whenever I put the chain back on I put a chainlink with outer plates on that notched cog.  With wear I can see on my cog that every other tooth is worn a bit more that the other teeth, as the teeth and chain wear together.

If your hub is four years old it might have a threaded sprocket, not a splined one.  If so, that will be another educational point later.

I do not pack my EX box full of grease, just coated everthing that moves, it is less messy when changing cables later. 

I recall reading somewhere that a few people have had the Torx screws that thread into the EX box to hold the plate on have corroded from dissimilar metal corrosion for a few people.  It would be a good idea to grease those screws too.

When you change oil, this will come in handy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVhmgqICNhU

I substitute red wine for the recommended cup of tea.

Nice looking frame.

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on August 05, 2021, 09:58:56 AM
Okay, thanks. I know it has oil inside, checked that already. I'll add a bit more and get some miles on it.
As long as it has some in it, it'll be fine, there's no need to add.
I'd do an early oil change, mainly to flush any fine debris out, certainly within the first 1,000 miles, maybe even half that. That's my opinion, I haven't seen it recommended by Rohloff, in other applications it's good practice for any cut gears.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on August 08, 2021, 12:33:42 AM
This seems like the right thread to ask, instead of bumping an old one: while out riding today, learning to love the IGH, I noticed a few times when I could not turn the shifter knob. I was stopped, with a foot on a pedal, chain under tension. Knob just would not turn, in either direction. Yet when pedaling, coasting, or at a stop with feet off the pedals, I can shift just fine. Is this a known quirk? Perhaps it will disappear with time.

Also, some views of the setup. Chain tensioner:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fwKmbnt/0/L/i-fwKmbnt-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-pfJ6tgJ/0/L/i-pfJ6tgJ-L.jpg)

Shifter with noodles, mounted to stem:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-fZV99Hj/0/XL/i-fZV99Hj-XL.jpg)

Napping:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-6NXTk6G/0/X2/i-6NXTk6G-X2.jpg)
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on August 08, 2021, 01:01:57 AM
I'd expect it to be stiff with a lot of weight on the pedal, but fine with a bit. How much?  Probably one foot on the ground and the other resting on the pedal should be fine, not track standing. I'd also expect that position of shifter to be less natural and the noodles to have added some (Quantity unknown) friction to the system.  Yes they ease up with time, though the sifting on my folder with an awkward cable run is not as smooth as on my other bikes, so any friction in the cables makes a fair difference.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: martinf on August 08, 2021, 06:19:20 AM
Also, some views of the setup. Chain tensioner:

I have a Surly Singleator tensioner with a Nexus 8 Premium hub on an old MTB with vertical dropouts.

But set up pushing upwards rather than downwards, to maximise the chain wrap around the sprocket.

And adjusted with very little spring tension, just enough to stop the chain falling off. Here, the idea is to reduce friction, don't know if it has any effect ot not. But I believe hub gears work best with a slightly slack chain.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on August 08, 2021, 08:18:31 AM
This seems like the right thread to ask, instead of bumping an old one: while out riding today, learning to love the IGH, I noticed a few times when I could not turn the shifter knob. I was stopped, with a foot on a pedal, chain under tension. Knob just would not turn, in either direction. Yet when pedaling, coasting, or at a stop with feet off the pedals, I can shift just fine. Is this a known quirk? Perhaps it will disappear with time.
I think the problem is having the chain under tension results in those gears in the hub currently engaged being under load and thus not free to easily disengage. I would expect the problem to reduce as the gear surfaces become more polished through usage. Rohloff hubs improve with age and usage.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Andre Jute on August 08, 2021, 10:03:58 AM
That's one good-looking cross-frame bike! And in the very best colour too, British Racing Green, elegant by day and by night. Love your tan sidewalls!

About your chain tension: The one foot on the ground, other foot on the pedal, test already advised is the good one, which works on my bike with just over 10,000km on the clock.

However, I must agree with everyone else, your chain is too tight. Rohloff advises a very slack chain, and there is lots of reported experience from people running visibly much slacker chains than they would on their non-Rohloff bikes.

I don't know what adjustment is available on the Singleator, or whether turning it around as Martin suggests would add enough/any slack, but if that fails or is impossible because of the geometry of the bike, I would suggest you start at the Singleator's lowest tension and ride-and-adjust until the chain doesn't fall off.

Alternatively, if it is easier, just add a couple of links to the chain, ride-and-add-links until the Singleator permits the chain some visible slack.

A Rohloff-equipped bike which depends on an eccentric bottom bracket or Rolloff-designed axle hangers in slider slots should have a chain with visible slack, a drop of say 10mm vertically in the middle of each run of the chain.

Though the Rohloff change gets easier as it beds in, which happens over an extended period (a Rohloff is run in about the time a Shimano Nexus box lies itself down to die), eventually it becomes second nature to the rider to lift slightly when changing gears under load. At about 6Ė8000km I perceived a difference between changing gears at speed on a flat road which at that point didn't require liftoff, and changing gears on an ascending road, which still requires a slight lift.

I wrote here once that if I were to sell my Rohloff HGB, I would demand a premium over the new price for the service of running it in. If you have experience of the Shimano Nexus, in which the gear change isn't very precise but the control, properly set up, is not as loose as even a new Rohloff, forget it: the Rohloff will never be as smooth a changer as the Nexus is capable of (I know because I also have an electronically automatic Nexus box, the full Di2, not the cut-down assisted manual of the Dura-Ace groups, and my Smover changes as smoothly as Shimano promised, almost imperceptibly), but the Rohloff will get near enough, and the precision it starts with is about the same throughout it's life because it is just a better-made box.

Analogously, from the beautiful fitting of your noodles, I wonder if your gear change cables aren't a bit tight, as in road bike derailleur practice. Rohloff cables are supposed to be set so that there is a minimum of 1mm play around the mark for the gear the box is in. My box, still on its first cable set, has always had 3mm of play to each side -- and it was set up like that by an experienced and conscientious (German) mechanic with factory training.

In the beginning, when I marked the crucial gear indicators 1, 8, 11 and 14 with white Tippex, I wondered at these tolerances on the cables and the chain but it soon turned out that they're fit and forget, and I think of them, now that I'm changing gears without thinking about it, only when I run into a new Rohloff owner with the same concerns. The only gear that I can ever tell you I'm in is the 1:1 gear 11 which is what my respiration rate and heart exercises are predicated upon, which I select by going to gear 14 and clicking back three slight notches. Otherwise I'm just magically in the right gear for the lay of the land and the rise of the road.

A happy Rohloff owner is one whose rotary gear change control numbers are worn almost to invisibility -- or beyond.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on August 08, 2021, 10:28:36 AM
This seems like the right thread to ask, instead of bumping an old one: while out riding today, learning to love the IGH, I noticed a few times when I could not turn the shifter knob. I was stopped, with a foot on a pedal, chain under tension. Knob just would not turn, in either direction. Yet when pedaling, coasting, or at a stop with feet off the pedals, I can shift just fine. Is this a known quirk? Perhaps it will disappear with time.
I think the problem is having the chain under tension results in those gears in the hub currently engaged being under load and thus not free to easily disengage. I would expect the problem to reduce as the gear surfaces become more polished through usage. Rohloff hubs improve with age and usage.

I fully agree, but since I never have my chain under tension while stopped when I try to shift in the eight years I have ridden a Rohloff, hard for me to say.

Sometimes the shift from gear 7 to 8 or 8 to 7 is less smooth when I am moving, but that is engaging or disengaging the third planetary gear system.  I usually start out from a stop in gear 8, sometimes 7, so when I am at a stop and shifting I am usually near that point where the shift is less smooth.

I am old enough that I learned how to bicycle first on a single speed with coaster brake, then on a Sturmey Archer 3 speed, and later with friction shifting on a derailleur system.  Thus, part of my learning how to bike included learning to shift without a lot of torque on the crank (or chain tension) while shifting.  Sometimes I stop pedaling for the fraction of a second to shift, sometimes I try to time my shift when one foot is at the top of the crank rotation where my pedaling is under the least amount of torque.

I think indexed derailleur shifting with ramps and pins on sprockets and chainrings has resulted in a new generation of bicyclists that never learned to reduce power output during a shift, especially if they have electric derailleur shifting.  For them, adjusting their shifting procedure can be a bit frustrating.

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: PH on August 08, 2021, 05:00:17 PM
Andrew, just how tight is your chain?
I don't know how to tell from a photo. When a sprung tensioner is used. surely the tightness is determined by the spring?  There's no visible slack with my Rohloff tensioner, I could add an additional link and that would still be the case, I'd just get more chain slap on rough ground.  Neither do I understand the theory that the tensioner is somehow pulling the hub against a gear, if anything it'd be pulling it away from engagement, but I'm doubtful it's doing either.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: geocycle on August 08, 2021, 07:06:12 PM
I was also looking at the chain. If the cables move freely when the hub is disconnected it is likely it is the chain that is putting the hub under load. Earlier this year I put a new drive train on the bike and was surprised I couldnít move between 7 and 8 with any weight at all on the pedals. I always unconsciously back off a bit but this change sometimes resulted in the sensation described. I slackened the chain and all was well.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on August 08, 2021, 07:37:35 PM
Thanks, all who have commented. The chain, at rest, is not under any great tension, it has some slack on the top and the bottom. Riding again this morning, it's clear that the resistance to shifting when stopped but with a foot on the forward pedal was operator error - Rohloff wants the chain/hub to be under no or very light load when shifting. Okay! I think my shifts while pedaling are probably happening when pedals are at 6 and 12 o'clock, but I can easily adapt to briefly lightening the pedals when I shift.

Do my noodles add some friction? Yes, I could feel it when playing around getting the shifter and cable housing placements settled, before I committed to screwing the cables down in the external mech. But not very much friction, still a fairly light cable movement. I'm liking the shifter placement, though I recognize I've given up the option of shifting with both hands on the bars, and will endure some consequent shifting limitations.

On the Surly Singletor, yes, it works neatly in a pushing UP mode, and I changed out its spring this morning to work this way. There IS clearance for chain and tensioner cog, even if the picture makes it look too tight. And its tension is set light enough that it's not pressing up as far as the chain will allow. I like this look better, closer to a singlespeed aesthetic (one of my other bikes is a Rivendell singlespeed).

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-ZfwqdbL/0/L/i-ZfwqdbL-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9P6xWX9/0/L/i-9P6xWX9-L.jpg)
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on September 08, 2021, 01:46:27 AM
Many thanks to all for tips and advice on the hub in my new bike. I've been out on some good test rides as the bits continue to be added (fenders, lights, etc.) and I'm feeling moderately proficient at shifting, including while climbing.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-LHTFrgh/0/XL/i-LHTFrgh-XL.jpg)

(kindly ignore the poor fenderline, I'm working on that!)
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: John Saxby on September 08, 2021, 02:04:36 AM
Nice fenders!  Are they Velo Orange items?
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on September 08, 2021, 05:06:00 PM
Nice fenders!  Are they Velo Orange items?
Yes... fluted aluminium. I'm having a bit of an issue... the 700x45 Compass tires have great grip on the road, and when I change direction quickly, or stand on the pedals, I get wheel/tire squirm and some rubbing on the front fender. I'll check on spoke tension, but I may need to flare out the fender to add clearance.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: John Saxby on September 08, 2021, 09:19:04 PM
I also used the fluted alu 'guards on my Raven -- 650B x 52 mm.  That gave me approx 10 mm total side-to-side clearance with my 26 x 1.6 Marathon Supremes (39.5 mm actual width, inflated).

If the Compass tires' inflated width is also 45 mm, then you have at most 7 mm total clearance, perhaps less. My fenders' actual width, taking account of the slight roll at the bottom of each side, was more like 50 mm, not 52.

Might well be worth trying a delicate flaring operation -- probably more difficult where the stays are mounted on the fenders.  Is there a particular spot where fender rubs tire?  Interesting that it's only on the front 'guard.

And good luck with the Compass 700 x 45s!  I bought a pair of Naches Pass 26 x 1.75s, hoping for more volume/lower pressures. They were lovely tires, smooth and a gear faster on my Rohloff than my Supremes in most conditions. BUT, they were only 40 mm actual inflated, virtually the same as my Supremes. AND, I had three punctures in three rides totalling 400 kms.  :(   The punctures more than wiped out the time gained from faster speed across the ground.

So, I donated my Compass tires to the bike-recycling organization where I volunteer & reverted to my Supremes. These give me a much better combination of comfort, speed and durability.

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Andre Jute on September 08, 2021, 09:54:35 PM
I operate 60x622 Schwalbe Big Apples, the original soft-sided "folding" version inside SKS P65 mudguards, and there is approximately 1mm of clearance when the bike is loaded with rider and either groceries or painting gear. But it causes no trouble, working reliably if adequate care is taken in adjustment of the associated components, which is everything behind the seat tube, when a new chain is fitted or the wheel is removed and refitted for any reason. But I don't fancy patching a puncture beside a busy road on a stormy night...

The Big Apples have an ultra-shallow tread, little more than a pattern of consolation for those who don't trust the science of rolling resistance and traction, so they don't pick up and pack mud; where I live, even small lanes are paved, so mud-pack isn't a serious potential. But elsewhere I'd probably want to see considerably more clearance between mudguard and even a slick tyre.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on September 09, 2021, 04:56:45 AM
My Compass 700x44 tires measure closer to 42, and the V.O. fenders are close to 50, as well.

On another bike, I have done a couple thousand touring miles on the 700x38 Barlow Pass tires from Compass without ever a puncture. Great tires, I might go 300 miles before I need to air them back up. I had no hesitation in getting the 700x44, they're such delightful rolling tires. Just standard casings on both tires.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: John Saxby on September 10, 2021, 04:10:38 AM
Quote
I have done a couple thousand touring miles on the 700x38 Barlow Pass tires from Compass without ever a puncture

Wow!  Envy you that.  Maybe I just had bad luck...
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Bill on September 20, 2021, 02:19:49 AM
I had compass tires on my 700C Atlantis and had five flats in one day on the front tire riding out of Kamloops BC. I ended up leaving the (fairly new) tires at the bike shop I hitch hiked to and replacing them with Marathon Supremes. In retrospect I think it must have been a thorn. Kamloops is desert country.
On the Great Divide on my Raven Nomad I used Kenda small block 8s,  a less agressive knobby mountain bike tire, I think they were 2.1 inch. worked well.
I think I have some compass tires for the Raven, I might put them on the refurbished bike, the original schwalbes feel hard and unresponsive.

Why are we talking about tires anyway?
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Bill on September 20, 2021, 03:01:00 AM
And to AndrewJ, nice bike!
I have two Rivendells and I have fantasized about a Riv with Rohloff.
You've actually done it,..well sort of.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on September 20, 2021, 04:46:46 PM
And to AndrewJ, nice bike!
I have two Rivendells and I have fantasized about a Riv with Rohloff.
You've actually done it,..well sort of.
I can tell you that I approached Grant directly, I had a neat idea (from Alex Wetmorre) for capturing the torque arm in the crotch of the rear triangle, but he took a pass. I eventually settled on my friend in Portland, and that's his second frame. We improved on the lines of my '98 RBW LongLow, added the Diagatube, and used a RBW fork I bought at their garage sale, which we re-raked for lower trail.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Bill on September 21, 2021, 04:50:52 AM
Grant is an iconoclast, which makes him an interesting person, but not always easy to deal with.
I have an Atlantis and a Rivendell custom, but I haven't bought anything  from them in years.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Andre Jute on September 21, 2021, 02:59:42 PM
You have two Rivendell bikes, Bill, but I have Rivendell just around the corner. See p2, RH side of http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf (http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf); the disclaimers are in the caption above the photo.

I had the same problem about getting a genuinely different bike built as Andrew, but I didn't even bother to approach Rivendell -- I knew I'd be shown the door, more or less politely, because Mr Petersen clearly has his own idea of a proper bike. In the end I was left with art school welding and silver-soldering instructors who would have loved turning my bike into a class project. Since I ride on hills that on the downside can propel you to a good 40mph and if the wind is right quite a bit faster, I decided that being aboard an art school apprentice construction at such speeds was a wee bit reckless for a family man, and instead bought a proven bike, designed by an iconoclast in 1935, and dragged smiling into the modern era by a pair of more recent iconoclasts, one of them Bernd Rohloff.

Did I say yet, Andrew, that I love your color scheme of green and cream, though those cream indented panels will be hell to clean if you let the bike get really dirty.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on September 21, 2021, 05:19:51 PM
Andre, I won't mind cleaning those cream windows on the frame, the bike is such a joy to ride.

And speaking of riding, here is a picture from yesterday, with my friend Mark, Constructeur of the frame & racks, having a ride on his creation. I had to lower the Brooks saddle all the way down, and he bruised his peanuts while straddling the top tube, but the look on his face says it all. We have some long rides already planned, starting with Boxing Day in December.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-cSQLf8G/0/X2/i-cSQLf8G-X2.jpg)
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Bill on September 28, 2021, 07:04:49 PM
Andre and Andrew, I like both your bikes.
Both very unique.
Andre, I thought you had converted your bike to electric.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: Andre Jute on September 29, 2021, 07:12:28 AM
Andre and Andrew, I like both your bikes.

I think Andrew's bike looks like the bicycle of someone who cares and knows what he's talking about -- or has knowledgeable and capable friends, of course. The whole thing is totally retro and yet totally functional. I should probably add that I too have been in fold of the crossframers these last dozen years or so and in my reckless yoof was a motor racer in the spaceframe age, so the half-diagonal through the central diamond is comfortingly familiar to me.

Quote
Andre, I thought you had converted your bike to electric.

Yes, the bicycle standing before "Rivendell" in the link I posted has been electrified to compensate for advancing years on the hills of West Cork. But I have other bikes, beautiful in different ways.

Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on November 07, 2021, 06:25:10 PM
Another question from ye olde first time Rohloff owner... is it common to feel anything notchy or unsmooth when standing while pedaling uphill in a lower gear? I can't tell if what I'm feeling is result of brief crank pause at 12 o'clock, or an internal bump. It's very definitely tied to crank position.

Otherwise, no issues to note, the hub is working great. I'm typically shifting 2-3 ratios at a time when I hit a hill or start down a slope, feels familiar to my friction shifting experience. On steady grades or perfect flat, I might wish for an inbetween ratio, but just change my pressure on the pedals to either settle into best cadence in that gear, or move up/down to the next one.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on November 07, 2021, 06:43:27 PM
Another question from ye olde first time Rohloff owner... is it common to feel anything notchy or unsmooth when standing while pedaling uphill in a lower gear? I can't tell if what I'm feeling is result of brief crank pause at 12 o'clock, or an internal bump. It's very definitely tied to crank position.
It's not a Rohloff characteristic that I recognise (the test is to see if the problem is consistent in different lower gears) and I suspect that it's elsewhere in the drivetrain. Have you checked that the chain tension is consistent through a whole rotation of the cranks?
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: geocycle on November 07, 2021, 06:48:19 PM
Another question from ye olde first time Rohloff owner... is it common to feel anything notchy or unsmooth when standing while pedaling uphill in a lower gear? I can't tell if what I'm feeling is result of brief crank pause at 12 o'clock, or an internal bump. It's very definitely tied to crank position.
It's not a Rohloff characteristic that I recognise (the test is to see if the problem is consistent in different lower gears) and I suspect that it's elsewhere in the drivetrain. Have you checked that the chain tension is consistent through a whole rotation of the cranks?

Sounds like a chain to me as well. Sometimes if they are too slack they can fall off the teeth of the chainring at low speed.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on November 08, 2021, 05:08:55 AM
Another question from ye olde first time Rohloff owner... is it common to feel anything notchy or unsmooth when standing while pedaling uphill in a lower gear? I can't tell if what I'm feeling is result of brief crank pause at 12 o'clock, or an internal bump. It's very definitely tied to crank position.
It's not a Rohloff characteristic that I recognise (the test is to see if the problem is consistent in different lower gears) and I suspect that it's elsewhere in the drivetrain. Have you checked that the chain tension is consistent through a whole rotation of the cranks?
Thanks, the (front) chain ring is centered on the BB, and the rear cog is, well, affixed as best as a Rohloff 17T cog can be affixed to a snap-ring 2nd generation carrier.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on November 08, 2021, 11:08:40 PM
Thanks, the (front) chain ring is centered on the BB, and the rear cog is, well, affixed as best as a Rohloff 17T cog can be affixed to a snap-ring 2nd generation carrier.
However, is the chainring round and how is it adjusted? Thorn recommend a fairly slack chain when using a Rohloff hub as illustrated on page 12 of the Thorn Owners Guide. How does your chain adjustment compare with this recommendation?
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on November 11, 2021, 06:04:18 PM
Thanks, the (front) chain ring is centered on the BB, and the rear cog is, well, affixed as best as a Rohloff 17T cog can be affixed to a snap-ring 2nd generation carrier.
However, is the chainring round and how is it adjusted? Thorn recommend a fairly slack chain when using a Rohloff hub as illustrated on page 12 of the Thorn Owners Guide. How does your chain adjustment compare with this recommendation?
Ring is round, yes, and centered on the spider last I checked. I'll go check again, perhaps it's shifted. I have an upward-pressing single cog tensioner, and perhaps it could be relaxed, certainly easy to test. It's also in good alignment with chainring and cog.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-9wjdXq6/0/L/i-9wjdXq6-L.jpg)

This could all be an artifact of uneven pedaling cadence, too, where crank rotation slows as pedals reach 12 and 6 o'clock positions.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on November 11, 2021, 07:26:29 PM
If something was not quite right, I would expect it to be felt mostly when at the highest torque, thus at 3 or 9 oclock.  If it is not smooth at 12 oclock position, that does not make much sense.

If you are applying a lot of power to the pedals, could you have enough frame flex to mess up the alignment?  I ask because I had a frame with a bad welding job at the bottom bracket shell, it had a lot of flex because the welder got their heat settings all wrong.  Thus, I am familiar with frame flex.

Is your chainline spot on?  (I did not go back and read this whole thread, if you said that, sorry.)  If your chainline is off, your chainring teeth might not yet have worn into the chain yet.

Is that tensioner spring loaded?  If it is spring loaded, that should not be the problem.  If it is fixed in position and has too much tension, that could be the problem.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: JohnR on November 11, 2021, 07:41:05 PM
That's a remarkably clean chain. Would it benefit from a bit more lube?
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: AndrewJ on November 12, 2021, 03:27:59 AM
That's a remarkably clean chain. Would it benefit from a bit more lube?
Plenty of lube, good spray-on Boeshield: https://www.rivbike.com/products/boeshield-t9-multi-purpose-spray-4oz

But surprise surprise surprise... the tensioner is moving up and down as the crank is spun. Between the chainring and the cog, there's one or more eccentricities. I will investigate, remediate, and report back.
Title: Re: First Time Rohloff Owner
Post by: mickeg on November 12, 2021, 10:50:45 AM
...
But surprise surprise surprise... the tensioner is moving up and down as the crank is spun. Between the chainring and the cog, there's one or more eccentricities. I will investigate, remediate, and report back.

When I change chainrings, there is a lot of slop in the holes in the crank spider arms and the chainrings.  Thus, if I just put a ring on and tighten the bolts, the chainring will not be concentric with bottom bracket spindle.  I have to semi-tighten up the bolts so that the chainring and crank arms can be shifted in position with a little pressure on them, and then it is an iterative process of trying to get the chainring in exactly the right spot where the chain slack has minimal change when I spin the crank backwards before I tighten up the chainring bolts.

I use different chainring sizes for touring versus riding around near home (36T for touring, 44T for riding around near home).  Thus, chainrings get changed on a regular basis, so I am accustomed to doing this.  And when I change chain rings, add or subtract four chain links.

I do not have a tensioner like you have, thus I need a small amount of slack in my chain, see photo.  It is an old photo, I was using the 44T chainring as a bash guard, but now have a real bashguard sized for the 36T chainring.  The chain looks tight in the photo, but if you hold a straight edge on your computer screen, you can see some slack in the chain.

That said, I would not expect an off-concentric chainring to have any noticeable feel when pedaling with a sprung tensioner.  But perhaps your tensioner movement for part of the time causes something else to rub?