Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: pinkbunnyok96 on February 10, 2021, 09:22:31 am
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will thorn be bringing to market a gates drive bycycle . i would order one tomorrow if they did use a gates drive bike for comuting an absolut god send so many used round the world touring i don not see a prob with life time
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There might be a comment about the belt drive in the Thorn Bible http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thorn_mega_brochure.pdf but I can't see it. I'm sure that they wouldn't be keen on making an opening in a high quality steel frame.
I've got a non-Thorn bike with a Gates CDX drive gathering dust in the back of the garage. They aren't as low-maintenance as you may believe. I used it during winter 19-20 and kept checking the bike for the source of disconcerting creaking noises. Eventually, in the spring, I gave the belt a very good scrub and the noises disappeared. Plus there's the substantial cost of adjusting the gearing ratio if found necesary and the running costs add up.
Last summer I bought a Mercury and have fitted it with a Hebie Chainglider http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13973.0. When spring arrives I'll look inside the plastic casing and check the condition of the chain but it's currently running smoothly and not making any worrying noises. The Chainglider might add a little friction to the transmission but no worse than due to a belt drive.
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“There might be a comment about the belt drive in the Thorn Bible http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thorn_mega_brochure.pdf but I can't see it. I'm sure that they wouldn't be keen on making an opening in a high quality steel frame. “
The Mk 3 Nomad has a joint in the lower end of the seat stay to cater for a belt drive.
T.
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The Mk 3 Nomad has a joint in the lower end of the seat stay to cater for a belt drive.
T.
Thanks for correcting me. This is mentioned in the Nomad brochure http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/BUILD6NOMAD650bROHLOFF.pdf and visible in the photos.
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you might want to read page 21 of http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff_LoRes.pdf (http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff_LoRes.pdf) which suggests that belt drives are not as maintenance free as they are often touted.
SheldonBrown's fabled website doesn't rate them too highly either http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff_LoRes.pdf (http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff_LoRes.pdf)
They may work for you in some cases, but a clean chain protected by a Hebie Chainglider might give you almost as many of the promised KM of a gates drive but at a fraction of the cost when it comes to servicing/maintaining.
I've never owned a Gates drive belt bike, but having read into them, I was ultimately put off by users who'd posted let downs they#d experience with the technology not living up to the promises. I am sure there are sitations where belt is best. But perhaps many more when chain trumps belt on many other levels.
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http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13850.msg103091#msg103091 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13850.msg103091#msg103091)
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I have both belt & chain drive bikes and to be honest the belt wins on maintenance. I have owned cars with both belt & chain thingies under the bonnet and I couldn't tell the difference or worried about them either.
On a group tour I was asked to carry a spare belt as the back up van didn't.
They are a bit lighter than a chain too.
Good conversation piece though ! :)
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Steve, the thread here that you linked to, in which a person complains about maintenance, was complaining about the first-generation Gates sprocket. Like the normal chain sprocket for Rohloff, that used to be threaded and a pain to get off. But now Gates, like Rohloff, has switched to a splined carrier for its sprockets.
The Thorn brochure's notes on the Gates drive is also several years old.
I have met enough satisfied Gates users on long tours now, and read very positive reports from others like Alee Denham, to feel that the tech is now mature. I am planning to switch this year myself.
I do not recommend a Hebie Chainglider. I had one for a few thousand kilometers, but it failed to keep the chain clean in dusty terrain and constantly required tweaking for smooth and noiseless operation. I eventually ended up ripping the Chainglider off my bike in frustration at a Peru truck stop and throwing it away.
A Hebie Chainglider also won't give you anywhere near the mileage of a belt. Chains wear out not because of contamination but stretching.
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Steve, the thread here that you linked to, in which a person complains about maintenance, was complaining about the first-generation Gates sprocket. Like the normal chain sprocket for Rohloff, that used to be threaded and a pain to get off. But now Gates, like Rohloff, has switched to a splined carrier for its sprockets.
The Thorn brochure's notes on the Gates drive is also several years old.
I have met enough satisfied Gates users on long tours now, and read very positive reports from others like Alee Denham, to feel that the tech is now mature. I am planning to switch this year myself.
I do not recommend a Hebie Chainglider. I had one for a few thousand kilometers, but it failed to keep the chain clean in dusty terrain and constantly required tweaking for smooth and noiseless operation. I eventually ended up ripping the Chainglider off my bike in frustration at a Peru truck stop and throwing it away.
A Hebie Chainglider also won't give you anywhere near the mileage of a belt. Chains wear out not because of contamination but stretching.
I agree. I have had a gates belt drive bike for a couple of years now and it is has performed faultlessly. Rohloff with Gates CDX belt, rear sprocket and front belt ring. My foray into IHG started with Alfine 8 but that soon proved a bad choice so I got a Rohloff 14 speed hub which has been a revelation in comparison. Started off with a chain with the chainglider cover which did ok, but a belt is better, much lighter, pretty much silent and all you need to do is occasionally hose it down if it gets dirty. No faffing about with getting the glider case on or off. Belt drive is a no brainer really. The only upgrade I can see to this is a Pinion 18spd centrally mounted gear box with belt drive. Maybe I get one of those in a few years. Either a Van Nicholas Devron or Smokestone ti fat bike withe with Pinion 18 spd gear box and belt drive would be nice.
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just clicked on to the veer split drive belt drive, it says "convert any bike to belt drive all for £500" seems a very good system. now i can buy my third thorn and have the best of all worlds) the thorns i have sport tour 35,000 miles curntly thorn mercury 66,000 miles and allso a cube hyde race 3,000 miles
i
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just ordered a vere split belt drive front pully 2*belts riveting tool $526 lets see how that goes
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Please let us know how it goes.
This should be interesting !
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phone call on wed 17 feb 2021 2 to 5 days shipping $529 how much tax to pay on delivery?
looked at chain and sprockets thjis morn totally shot . how much for thorn and rohloff kit?>
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phone call on wed 17 feb 2021 2 to 5 days shipping $529 how much tax to pay on delivery?
looked at chain and sprockets thjis morn totally shot . how much for thorn and rohloff kit?>
I've just had a glance and they're priced for the UK in £. The $ price might includes sales tax which you shouldn't pay.
So import costs will probably be, 4.7% of the goods value, plus 20% VAT on the total including delivery cost. But if it was my money I wouldn't trust a stranger on a forum before committing!
It's interesting but expensive, I can't put a value on how interesting someone would find the experience, but my transmission costs are well under 1p a mile so it's hard to see it being cost effective.
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sod the price lets see how good they are, if its half as good as my cube gates drive it will be $530 well spent only the owner can judge wether its money well spent or not veers owm web site (U,S,A,) so no stranger involved 2 to 5 days shipping
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only the owner can judge wether its money well spent or not
Which is what I said
I can't put a value on how interesting someone would find the experience
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just had an email from veer parts have been shipped should be here in a few days
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had a chain glider what a rubbish that proved to be made such a racket threw it in the bin on top of lanberis pass
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Please let us know how it goes.
This should be interesting !
+1 to that.
I don't think that I will rest until I've given belt drive a go.
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the veer split drive arrived at the door Wednesday 24 feb no tax pain looking at the invoice cost was 75 us$ for 2 puleys 2 drive belts 1 rivet tool till I see credit card statement will not know exchange rate I am not planning to fit this any time soon as I have a chain and sprockets to wear out but I will post it
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looking at phone receipt $540 exchange rate +£401 probelt fit within next 2 weeks
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forget all my ranblings just seen a thorn nomad mk 3 belt drive compatible (thats my next bike)
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judt converted mercury to belt drive took about an hour the riveting was the hard part chain line was perfect, first impresions very smooth and quit but i threw chain oil and cleaner in bin wont be using that again
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first week and 150 mls done on the veer fitting and conversion was a walk in the park this week been up a few stiff hilss north hill fareham portsdown hill portsmouth never went lower the 5 gear been down a gravely track that had chain and sprockets complaining got back to a garage used there water tap to wash off transmision after a few minutes goog to go for another week if i han done same on chain and sprockets £1 worth of gt85 £0.10 white spirit 0.05 chain oil and at least 20 mins if my time
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Good to hear that it's all going so well. I don't want to wish your life away but I'm keen to know what it will be like after (say) 5,000 miles.
Crack on !!... ;D
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willpost a prog report every 1000 miles 2 months
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first 1000 miles on a belt drive. nothing to report it's lived up to all expectation no sigh of wear very quit very smooth no maintenance carried out just a quick wash down once a week
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There you are, now you can join the "fit & forget" club !
Thanks for the posts it has been interesting.
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fit forget replace club a good club to be in
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2007 miles done no problems at all not even had to service in anyway (veer split belt drive) not even had to clean it if i still had a chain fitted wouild have cleaned and service every week which will cost time and money
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2007 miles done no problems at all not even had to service in anyway (veer split belt drive) not even had to clean it if i still had a chain fitted wouild have cleaned and service every week which will cost time and money
Sounding good...Thank you for posting.
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veer split belt drive belt 3,000 miles done still no indication of wear
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Do bottom brackets wear out quicker with belt driven systems? Perhaps I am naive without experience of anything but chain driven bikes, but I am imagining the tension of the belt against chain-ring (or should that be belt-ring?) being higher and a constant vs the slight slack set up of a traditional chain on a Rohloff hub.
Presumably the bottom bracket remains the same square taper BB-UN55 or similar that most of us are likely to be using?
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if you over tension a belt or chain you will have premeture wear of the wheel bearings or botom bracket bearings allsl extra friction in the drive belt i am running my belt slacker than i would a chain and after 3000 mls no adverse efect i have seen some belts on the internet you choober running it a lot slacker
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i am running my belt slacker than i would a chain and after 3000 mls no adverse efect
That's interesting and contrary to what I have read - most people who have tried a belt drive bike say that the belt has to be really tight.
However, your experience matches the experience of this guy. He discusses belt tension from around seven minutes in.
https://youtu.be/8SKeQ6B2UTk?list=FLP1q2gkrgO-7gy2zn8KyTEw
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I've got a bike with Rohloff + Gates CDX belt in the back of the garage (it hasn't been used since I got my Mercury). Gates recommended a tension which resulted in a 50Hz frequency hum when the belt was plucked (Gates provide a phone app to measure this). However, I actually ran the belt a bit slacker (30Hz hum) without any ill-effects. However, that was still much, much tighter than Thorn's recommended chain tightness which is to be able to move the midpoint of the chain up or down several cm. I have to wonder if the belt manufacturers' recommended high tension is to minimise the risk of the belt coming off in use because, if it does, then it's likely to get damaged and new belts aren't cheap.
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JohnR.
If you watch the video which I linked above, he says that he runs the belt slack but uses a 'belt snubber' to stop the belt coming off.
https://shop.carbondrive.net/shop/tools-parts/rdm-snubber.html?___store=en&___from_store=en
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Note: The snubber is required for use by Rohloff, when using Gates Carbon Drive on any Rohloff hubs.
Above is a quote from the sales pitch.
So IS it required on a Thorn?
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on first getting a gates drive bike from a shop the transmission sounded like squashed duck so i slackened it off a lot 4000 miles later no probs talking to people who maintain belts for a living the consensus is if they do not jump of the pulleys there tight enough
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Note: The snubber is required for use by Rohloff, when using Gates Carbon Drive on any Rohloff hubs.
Above is a quote from the sales pitch.
So IS it required on a Thorn?
...or a Shand ??
Can of worms opened.
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do not use a gates with my thorn mercury i use a veer split belt (soperb) not needed a snuber running as slack as a chain . i allso use a cube with gates allfine 8 no snubber allso running it as slack as a chain no probs mate run a motorcycle with tight chain wore gear box bearing and wheel bearings premeture
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4050 miles done on veer drive nothing to report not cleaned it even given up visual inspection so in 4000 miles i have saved that many chains sprockets so all you guys who got through a chain every 1000 miles thats 4 chains or if you got 8000 miles out of a chain thats half a chain but how much maint do you have to do i have seen some are talking about you swap chain filth for belt filth but belt filth is oil free chain filth on the other hand is not only oil but the worse oil that is designed to cling to a chain at 20 mph
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For the average mileage rider who likes hub gears it looks like the belt is a winner. Just the price will put some people off.
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so all you guys who got through a chain every 1000 miles thats 4 chains or if you got 8000 miles out of a chain thats half a chain but how much maint do you have to do
I don't know who all these guys are who change a chain (On a single chainline) every 1,000 miles.
I get about 15,000 miles out of mine. Every few weeks, or 3-500 miles, or when it squeaks, it gets a wipe and a drop of oil on each roller, about 10 minutes, or a little extra time while I'm giving it a clean anyway.
I'm glad you like your belt, why not tell us about what it's like, rather then what it isn't?
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i will tell you that the belt drive beats a chain on every count its like riding with new chain and sprockets every mile with no cleaning or adjusting spending 10 mins oiling your chain i don not even spend one min a month looking after it 4200 miles done on a veer belt 4200 miles done on a gates drive again no service done i stand over a mates shoulder waching chain service a lot of hasel that i can see wont have to do all that over the next 6 years
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i will tell you that the belt drive beats a chain on every count its like riding with new chain and sprockets every mile with no cleaning or adjusting spending 10 mins oiling your chain i don not even spend one min a month looking after it 4200 miles done on a veer belt 4200 miles done on a gates drive again no service done i stand over a mates shoulder waching chain service a lot of hasel that i can see wont have to do all that over the next 6 years
Wait until winter arrives and the roads get muckier and the bike starts to make disconcerting creaking noises which I eventually fixed by giving the belt a thorough scrub. Hence, on balance, I concluded that a chain in a Chainglider was just as low maintenance while being much cheaper to replace and also much cheaper to modify the gearing ratio.
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been using chains for 40 years chain gliders for 3 years. chain glider was thown in the bin absolute rubish. been using a belt for 4500 miles on a thorn seen a fair share of filthy roads not even cleaned it. been using a gates drive on a cube for 4 years (500 miles) in winter and summer the same so beats a chain hands down
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Pink bunny: what was your problem with the Chainglider?
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problems with the chain glider it was swine to remove when getting a puncture 2nd prob as the chain went slack with wear made a terible noise 3rd prob the chain wore just as quick with it or without it (4 chains trialed) 4th prob its bigest crime it fell apart after the first few miles so had to use cable ties to keep it together so in the bin it went have met people who use them and swear by them i on the other hand swear at them (chain glider not people)
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It would be undue punishment to expect you to torture yourself further with Chaingliders, Pink Bunny. The Chainglider works for quite a few perfectly reasonable people here, but I've never heard of a bicycle component that got along with absolutely everyone. I respect, for instance, people so tough they don't even fear a wedgie from a Brooks B17, a saddle I'm not likely to permit near any of my bikes. I prefer the Brooks saddles a man can sit on, and float on helical springs made of real steel.
Thank you for sharing your Gates Drive with us.
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problems with the chain glider it was swine to remove when getting a puncture 2nd prob as the chain went slack with wear made a terible noise 3rd prob the chain wore just as quick with it or without it (4 chains trialed) 4th prob its bigest crime it fell apart after the first few miles so had to use cable ties to keep it together so in the bin it went have met people who use them and swear by them i on the other hand swear at them (chain glider not people)
Gosh, sorry to hear about your issues.
I've had none of them and wouldn't cycle without one on my Raven.
Strange how we see things differently. But of course, respect to your own views.
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7,000 miles done on the veer split belt drive .Sill looks like new no probs stoprd inspecting stoped cleaning beats a chain hands down