Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: ourclarioncall on January 07, 2021, 06:16:09 PM

Title: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 07, 2021, 06:16:09 PM
Thought Iíd open up this topic as I have been inspired again by a few comments of theft/tamper protection

Ever had a bike stolen or tampered with while touring ? Or just local?

What is your current method of protecting your bike?

Have you changes your methods from previous ones?

Is there any methods you havenít already tried but would like to ?
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: WorldTourer on January 07, 2021, 07:27:46 PM
My theft-prevention philosophy is that I never leave the bike out of my sight on tour, unless I can safely stash it at a hotel or WarmShowers host first. For example, I do not go into any supermarket. Instead, I only shop from small shops where I can see the bike through the window. When I stop at a restaurant, I either eat outside, or I choose a table inside by the window and put my bike right outside there.

Since I don't leave the bike out of sight, I don't need a serious (= heavy) lock. The cheapest cable lock is enough to deter someone from just grabbing the bike and running.

Personally, I haven't even felt that this approach is a major inconvenience. It comes pretty naturally. But if you are touring with a partner, then of course it is good that your partner can watch your bike while you go inside a large supermarket.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Oggi on January 07, 2021, 07:59:15 PM
I have a light/alarm combo. The light is excellent and the alarm works well. I also use a lightweight cable lock. Between them they give me piece of mind but I also donít stray too far from my bike. The alarm was a present and itís well made and when you call the helpline you actually speak to the designer. Bit like when I called SJS with a question and got ďRobin speaking how can I help youĒ.

BOUH ALARM

The SR600 is a new anti-theft alarm system and powerful 600 lumen front light. Our patented EasyPull technology allows you to activate the alarm simply by pulling the torch out of the base Ė a simple solution that makes safeguarding your bicycle easy and stress free.

https://bouh.co.uk/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsJ3u1r6K7gIVCZntCh2TqAMXEAAYASAAEgJq3PD_BwE

Doug

Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: UKTony on January 07, 2021, 09:47:44 PM
For solo or group day rides with cafť and/or pub lunch stops, I carry either,

A Kryptonite (there are other makes) 5mm dia woven wire plastic coated cable about 75cm long coupled with an ordinary good quality padlock. Total weight 270g. More heavy duty than the so called Cafť locks.

Or,
as above but heavier duty (10mm dia x120cm long) if going places where I think the risk might be greater. Total weight 600g.

In any event, on group rides I usually try to stack  my bike behind someone elseís and tie it in with their lock as well.

I always take a spare key.
A combination lock is something to think about as thereís no key to lose.

Like others,when out solo I try to keep bike in view or only out of sight for a short time.

When I first bought the bike I did buy a huge D lock but have never used it mainly because it weighs 1.715kg (nearly two packets of Tate and Lyle).

I also work on the basis that a thief might, just might, think he/she stands a better chance of getting away with a bike of a less conspicuous colour than Tonka Yellow 😳
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: JohnR on January 07, 2021, 10:29:57 PM
As i mentioned in another thread, I've put a ring lock for the back wheel both immobilises the bike and stops the wheel with the Rohloff hub from going astray. Its position on the bike also makes it awkward to break without damaging the bike. A cable can be plugged into the lock to secure the bike to something more solid.

I had also bought a D lock but, as already noted, it's a heavy brute and best left fixed on a cycle rack at some daily destination. It's difficult to find a "gold" rated lock which the insurers want but doesn't weigh a couple of kg.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: John Saxby on January 07, 2021, 10:42:32 PM
My general approach is the same as WorldTourer, above.

Occasionally, I'll bring my bike into a supermarket and arrange to leave it near the cash registers.  (Travelling in Sweden a few years ago, I asked one of the cashiers, and they said, "Just take it around the store with you."  I thought, "I could live here.")

I also have a TiGr Lock Mini+, about 400g, and take that along if I think my usual drill will need some backup..
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 07, 2021, 11:01:39 PM
The ďAttila the hunĒ method is the ultimate in protection

Never get off your horse 😁 and itís free and weighs nothing

Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 07, 2021, 11:05:05 PM
Whatís the two biggest weapons used in theft ?

Bolt cutters and Angle grinders?

So what products cannot be defeated by bolt cutters , but CAN be defeated by angle grinder ?

And what products are undefeatable by both ?
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: UKTony on January 08, 2021, 10:02:29 AM
Life is a risk and all you can do is try and minimise the risk as far as is reasonable.
 I can think of more subtle tools to snip out a Rohloff hub.
If you google strongest bike lock, the Krytonite New York D lock comes up. Trouble is the D ring on this is quite small and likely wonít go round frame/back wheel AND immovable  object. So youíre going to need two or combine it with a less resistant cable.
Regarding JohnRís point above about Gold secure rated locks  and bike insurance, I believe, but youíd have to check, that the TSB bike insurance discussed recently in this forum, does not stipulate any particular standard of lock.

Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 08, 2021, 11:05:10 AM
Regarding JohnRís point above about Gold secure rated locks  and bike insurance, I believe, but youíd have to check, that the TSB bike insurance discussed recently in this forum, does not stipulate any particular standard of lock.
This is correct, I did try and get some confirmation, but the closest was that it should be appropriate.  I use a Kryptonite New York Std Sold Secure Gold lock and a Sold Secure Silver chain.  On an urban ride I'll just take the D lock if I know where I'm parking, the chain as well if I don't.  I take just the chain for day rides and touring, where I may leave the bike while I pop into a shop or at the campsite, but wouldn't leave it and go off for an hour.  I hope to never put it to the test, but I believe that would classify as appropriate.  My Gold rated lock weighs 2kg and there are Gold options a bit lighter, but not all offer the same protection, I also have an older Squire Gold D lock that weight a fraction over 1kg, but only have one key left so don't use it often. My Silver rated chain doesn't weigh a lot less 1.6 kg, but it does offer more options, both locking and carrying, due to the size.
Nothing is secure of course, the test for a Gold rating is only a few minutes, even heavy motorcycle locks that you wouldn't want to carry on a bike will only double it.  My D lock is claimed to resist any hand tools and is double locked so would need two cuts with an angle grinder.  I've had one bike stolen and one vandalised to death, both were cheaper bikes, that's not a big enough sample to draw any conclusions.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 08, 2021, 07:37:03 PM
Anyone heard of this British made lock ?

Locks very interesting

https://www.litelok.com/collections/litelok-products-all/products/litelok-gold-original?variant=31864990957642
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 08, 2021, 07:43:01 PM
Oh dear

https://youtu.be/D-On0DGcDlc
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 08, 2021, 07:54:48 PM
Hmmm

https://youtu.be/nwRgqWvFwlc
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 08, 2021, 08:20:07 PM
One more

Think the last vid the kid was using bolt cutters not cable cutters

This guy uses the same tool as lock picking lawyer

https://youtu.be/YKO1yudGVNg

Still looks like quite a good product?
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 08, 2021, 09:02:05 PM
Anyone heard of this British made lock ?
I know a couple of people who got them cheap early on, I think they were crowd funded. 
I was tempted, but then considered if I wanted a lock that looked easier to break than it was.  Security is more than lock strength, deterrent is a large factor.  It isn't hard to write a bike frame off in a bodged theft attempt and the last thing you want is a lock that invites the casual thief to have a go.  Maybe I'll be tempted some time in the future when every thief knows how tough they are, until then I'll carry something that's twice the weight and looks three times harder to break, even if it only has the same strength. 
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 08, 2021, 09:16:31 PM
Abus granite extreme 59 it is then

https://youtu.be/BxIbAFnmsIQ
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Danneaux on January 08, 2021, 11:16:27 PM
Sadly, I live in a very high-theft area so there are no ironclad solutions. Their preferred method is to cut the frame in two at the top and downtubes using an angle grinder (or hacksaw if noise is a problem but time is not) and take both halves away to harvest the components at leisure in casual "chop-shops", in most cases homeless camps by the river. Parts are not serially numbered like frames and can be turned quickly on Craigslist (our Gumtree), via eBay or in person. Top and downtubes are only about 0.5-0.6mm between the butts, so it doesn't take long to get through them.

It is hard to guard against such no matter what lock you use. On my daily 8km walk today, I spotted another four frame "halves", stripped of parts. In a sweep by the parks department a couple years ago, over 350 frames were recovered from one smallish park area off the bike path.

Best approach is to avoid physically leaving your bike unless it is locked inside a secure location where parts cannot be harvested off it. When traveling, I have found it helpful to ask if I can lock my bike at an attended petrol station while shopping for groceries nearby, offering to bring the operator a coffee and pastry on my return. It has worked out well.

Another method sometimes used by thieves here is the "grab and go", where bikes next to where one is standing are grabbed and ridden away while the owner is either taking a photo, changing a jacket or pushed to the ground. For any casual stop like this, I use my frame-mounted ring-lock. It is always with me so I can't forget and I chose the kind that retains the key while unlocked, so I won't forget the key at home. I use a coiled wrist band and clip to keep it with me off the bike.

I use a ring-lock on several of my bikes with a choice of plug-in cable or light or heavy chain, depending on circumstances. The saddle gets its own cable, secured through the bolt of the ring-lock and this also threads through my underseat bag. The ring-lock cable secures the anti-theft tethers on my Ortlieb panniers. The handlebar bag always, always, always goes with me so I don't even take a key for its locking mount. I also have a remote controlled motion-sensing alarm under each bike's saddle.

Whenever I stop to use a public toilet, I bring the bike in with me...and lock it while I take care of business. I carry a small rubber doorstop so the spring-actuated outside door won't catch the rear mudguard on the way in or out. Also handy if you're stowing or recovering your bike from a cloak/storage room or concierge closet at formal lodging.

So far -- using care! -- I have not had a bike stolen, but it has come close with my Nomad as a thief tried unsuccessfully to run away with it while the ring-lock was secured and the plug-in cable wrapped 'round a picnic table bench. I was glad I had taken the precaution, especially as it happened while I was seated eating my lunch at the other side of the table(!). Apparently he didn't notice the ring-lock or the cable, which was plugged in and secured on the other side of the bike. Moments before, the thief appeared to be just a guy in the park, pausing momentarily by my table  to check his cellphone. They're bold, our local thieves.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Mike Ayling on January 08, 2021, 11:28:31 PM
Crikey Dan, things are bad in your neck of the woods!

A coffee shop slower downer for those who use helmets is to place the helmet on the front wheel behind the fork  and close the strap through the spokes.

Mike
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 01:00:00 AM
Wow Dan, where do you live ?!

Iím up in east Scotland and things are pretty safe here. I could tie my bike up with a cheap £10 cable lock to a handrail and leave it all day and I would have no fear of it being stolen .

So Iím extremely nieve to what goes on in other parts of the world and to what extent
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 01:35:34 AM
Lots of good comments here to consider

One thought I was having which someone else touched on is , the potential damage to your bike ,  from an attempted theft in relation to  either the type of lock you use or where specifically you place it on your bike

Those ring locks for example , could your spokes/rims be damaged if a person were to repeatedly try to force the wheels to turn or just by trying to ride it by jumping full weight onto the pedal ?

Or if your ring lock has one of those chains that plug into it , could the chain damaged the ring lock if someone tries forcefully to ram the bike forward repeatedly to break the lock/chain?

Also what about people supergluing your padlocks out of spite/cruelty ? Especially those big heavy duty chains /locks that people might leave permanently somewhere?

Is there best practices with which areas of the bike  you secure your bike with your locks ? For example if you know someone might try an angle grinder, maybe it would be better to keep the lock away from the frame if possible , well , I guess that might not be possible but youl understand what I mean

The other thought is , what should I secure my bike to?

The other night I was outside Asda supermarket looking for a place to lock my bike up against and saw some railings , but they were not secured properly and a thief could literally have pulled them up out of the ground , so I went to a bike rack around the corner

I reckon a lamp post is a good option as they are not going to angle grind through that , but maybe a lamp post is too thick for a D lock
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 01:38:11 AM
I like the idea of having two locks

For example if you have a chain and cable lock

And a thief comes with bolt cutters, he might get through the chain but no hope when it comes to the cable

And vice verse

Unless he has an angle grinder to get through both
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Danneaux on January 09, 2021, 03:10:50 AM
Quote
Wow Dan, where do you live ?!
Eugene, Oregon USA...upper-leftish corner of the country 100km from the Pacific Ocean, 100km from the summit of the Cascade mountain range, at the southern foot of the Willamette Valley.

Unfortunately, most property theft here is driven by the drugs problem, which is also big. Eugene is also a university town, so there's lots of student bikes as well.

Also, the local police department has decided that due to funding and staffing shortfalls, they will not investigate any property crimes whatsoever. They have decided to no longer offer bicycle registration. If you need a police report for insurance purposes you have to file it online yourself.

A perfect storm.

Here is the local police webpage with stats and parking/locking tips:
https://www.eugene-or.gov/951/Bicycle-Safety-Theft-Prevention#:~:text=Like%20most%20college%20towns%2C%20Eugene,victim%20of%20a%20stolen%20bike.
https://blogs.uoregon.edu/raw123/about/
https://bikeindex.org/news/what-to-do-when-your-bike-is-stolen-in-lane-county-coburg-cottage-grov
Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: UKTony on January 09, 2021, 11:51:00 AM
All very interesting. In UK we have bikeregister.com for free registeration of details of your bike(s) and police have special access to search the bike registrations eg to check ownership of any suspect stolen bike they might find. You can also buy tamper proof stickers and micro dots to apply to all components so they could be traced. You can also check your postcode area for bike theft risk on a heatmap. Generally as youíd expect the hottest areas are cities and larger towns.

JohnR has mentioned Ring Locks. Be aware that unless youíve got back-up defences these could be circumvented by using a hacksaw to saw through the tyre and alu rim at the point where the ring goes through the wheel. After that I imagine the wheel could be released from the frame without too much trouble.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: leftpoole on January 09, 2021, 12:08:33 PM
Contrary to the use of  Kryptonite New York lock which I own but have never used.
I actually use something called a 'coffee stop lock' which is a thin (couple of mm) wire connected to a humble plastic/metal combination clasp.
This I use almost every time I park a bike up. If I go into outdoor toilets, indeed I also must admit to taking the bike in with me (smilar to Dan).
The only time I have ever had a bike stolen was when locked with a heavy Abus 'D' style lock! The thieves left the lock behind, opened!

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Abus-Combiflex-Roll-Back-Cable-Lock_107768.htm?sku=399976&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=google_shopping&gclid=CjwKCAiAxeX_BRASEiwAc1Qdkfo2U8WiIFVqnKFPi1ZwZHiOKKv_debK0QSVsIaOI0jzDKiO1fY9ehoCN9QQAvD_BwE
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 09, 2021, 12:11:38 PM
I like the idea of having two locks
If I don't know where I'm parking, the D and chain offer plenty of options.   If the D won't go round whatever I have to lock to, it'll lock the bike to itself and the chain to the object.  You're also at an advantage in a group, if you get six bikes locked together, most covered by two or three locks, doesn't really matter if they're locked to anything else.
The ideal thing is not that the lock beats the theft methods, but that the thief decides there's easier pickings.  If a thief decides to try and take my bike, they'll either succeed because they have the knowledge and tools, or make a mess of the bike because they don't, I want to avoid both.
At least half the bike thefts I know of have been down to carelessness not  weak locks, that isn't a criticism, I don't always take enough care myself.  The most recent was a work colleague who leant his bike on the front of his house while he walked through unlock the side gate.  45 sec at most, opened the gate to see the thief riding off....   or someone who could only get the lock around the QR front wheel, or the time I locked my bike really well in a city centre but left the keys in the lock, thankfully I got away with that one  :-[
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: UKTony on January 09, 2021, 01:34:03 PM
In the 1930s my father used to cycle from Stockwell to Highbury to watch Arsenal play. The bike was left (no bike lock -  was there such a concept then?)  outside the Ground and was always still there after the match. In the 1970s living in Paddington, Central London, I kept my bike locked to railings in the open porch by the front door of the building. The bike was a half  decent 5 speed Falcon Reynolds 531 Plain Gauge £99.95 new from F W Evans original shop in Kennington. The lock was just a length of chain from the ironmonger and an ordinary padlock. Over 6 or 7 years - no thefts. Mind you the black enamel paint job was well camouflaged against the railings.
All a far cry from where we find ourselves now!
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 09, 2021, 02:27:02 PM
JohnR has mentioned Ring Locks. Be aware that unless youíve got back-up defences these could be circumvented by using a hacksaw to saw through the tyre and alu rim at the point where the ring goes through the wheel. After that I imagine the wheel could be released from the frame without too much trouble.
I was tempted enough by this idea that I've just dug out one I'd had on a bike years ago, not for my Mercury, but the bike I'll often use for errands. Unfortunately it doesn't fit around that bikes big tyres and guards, though I may look for one that does.
A quick look shows there are models rated SS Silver, which surprised me for the reasons you give.  Though having sawn through a tyre once it's not as easy as you might think. These locks really come into their own because they're habit forming - When just popping into a shop, with the bike mostly in sight, there's a temptation not to get the lock out the bag and find the key in a pocket, it is easy to become complacent, I do so myself... I don't know any statistics, but from anecdotes, this sort of opportunistic theft of unlocked bikes is fairly common and it's this that these locks are really designed to prevent rather than as an option for leaving the bike for any time.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 09, 2021, 02:42:42 PM
In the 1930s my father used to cycle from Stockwell to Highbury to watch Arsenal play. The bike was left (no bike lock -  was there such a concept then?)  .........
All a far cry from where we find ourselves now!
The 1948 classic Italian film "Bicycle Thieves (Ladri di biciclette)" shows that it isn't such a modern problem, in Italy anyway and I doubt the the UK was much different.
You're probably right that it's become worse though, there's several factors - how easy it is to sell stolen goods is IMO the major one. 
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 03:25:08 PM
Leftpoole

Wow,

What model of Abus D lock was it ?

And what year would this have been?

Also where do you live ?

Do you think they have learned how to pick these locks then ?
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 03:31:53 PM
PH

yeah, I was thinking things through for safety in all parts of the world.

I like the D lock + chain or cable combo

Just thinking if I was in an African village or something and no lamppost . I guess the cable or chain can go round a tree.

Two D locks are maybe only good for those metal rail things that line up nicely with both your wheels and frame.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: WorldTourer on January 09, 2021, 04:40:19 PM
In the 1930s my father used to cycle from Stockwell to Highbury to watch Arsenal play. The bike was left (no bike lock -  was there such a concept then?)  outside the Ground and was always still there after the match.

Theft of unlocked, unattended bicycles in the UK and on the continent is already referred to as a common vexation in literature from the interwar period. It is certainly not a modern problem.

Certainly one could have safely left a bike locked outside with a strong chain until recently. But then the availability of battery-powered angle grinders changed that.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: leftpoole on January 09, 2021, 04:43:21 PM
Leftpoole

Wow,

What model of Abus D lock was it ?

And what year would this have been?



Also where do you live ?



Do you think they have learned how to pick these locks then ?
Bournemouth around 1998 I do not live there at present but hope/intend to return when I am able.
The Abus which was at that time the most expensive.
I have been told on more than one occasion, by a Police officer and a Loss adjuster for an Insurance Company, that thieves can unlock some locks in a matter of seconds. Apparently the thieves train up on the last locks! Making tools to circumvent the key!
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 05:05:44 PM
Very interesting

You can see from vids on YouTube that folk can pick the current toughest D locks

But I suppose it doesnít really matter if itís picked, or if itís cut with an angle grinder , it wonít take long

But I am still keen on the Abus granite extreme 59 as it looks like it will defeat all other methods

If Iím spending nearly 4K on a nomad I donít mind £150 for a lock , even if itís just to pop into shops for 2 minutes
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 09, 2021, 05:11:39 PM
What would be a good choice to go along with a top of the range D lock?

As in a chain or cable ?

Iím thinking of times when Touring in foreign lands and there is nothing to attach a D lock to, so your think more of using a tree

Any one tried one of these ?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Oxford-OF232-Motorcycle-Bike-Revolver-1-8m-Security-Armoured-Cable-Lock-Silver-/193604616129?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 09, 2021, 08:43:30 PM
But I am still keen on the Abus granite extreme 59 as it looks like it will defeat all other methods
Couple of things - Are you basing that choice on the three year old review you linked to?  Is it still the top dog?  I don't know either, but things do change
Such reviews are always selective, they can't test them all.  Also they test the lock in isolation, that winner was a kg heavier than the lock in 2nd place, I'd be surprised if two locks for the same weight didn't take longer to defeat.
it just comes down to what you feel comfortable with, we can't know the answers, it's all guesswork.  You may have the best lock and never have a bike stolen, but you can't know if that would still have been the case with a lock half it's weight.  Likewise you could have a bike stolen with a lightweight lock but not know that it wouldn't also have been stolen with the best...
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: JohnR on January 09, 2021, 09:36:09 PM
I was tempted enough by this idea that I've just dug out one I'd had on a bike years ago, not for my Mercury, but the bike I'll often use for errands. Unfortunately it doesn't fit around that bikes big tyres and guards, though I may look for one that does.
Here's the ring lock I put on my Mercury https://www.amazon.co.uk/M-Wave-Unisex-Adult-Chain-Frame/dp/B07ZZMPH7K . There's plenty of clearance for 50mm tyres (the specs say up to 70mm). At the moment the chain is kept at home when I'm going for a short ride and don't expect to stop anywhere. If you don't want the chain then the basic lock is here https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wave-Unisexs-Frame-Black-X-Large/dp/B0777V4NKW . It's fixed to the frame with cable ties through the slots having first put some bits of chopped up old inner tube between the lock and the frame.

That lock doesn't have a security rating but I'm more interested in the deterrence capability. As already noted, a determined thief with the right tools will somehow get round any lock.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Danneaux on January 10, 2021, 12:35:00 AM
I'm not sure if this helps, but when I did my European double-crossing (Bulgaria-France-Black Sea with sizable detours) in 2014 on the Raven Tour AndyBG so kindly loaned me, I used his Kryptonite Evo-2000 U-lock and a 10mm vinyl-covered cable to secure the bike. I was very "careful", ALWAYS locked it and parked with care and concern and had no problems. I didn't lose a single item to theft or pilferage, but I put that down to my care and generally nice people. ;) In my experience, theft is a generally greater problem in larger places. I felt less comfortable parking the bike in larger places like Belgrade and Bucharest and moreso in small villages.

I only had a couple "concerning" moments. One was at a museum in Romania. A young boy known to be a problem in the area kept hanging around the bike and when one of the staff saw he was there making me uncomfortable about entering, she voluntarily brought a chair and a book outside and read next to the bike while I toured the museum with the docent. Of course the bike was also locked, but I cannot think of better theft prevention!

First photo below shows the bike "fully dressed" at the beginning of my tour at Andy's place. I brought and fitted my own seatpost, stem, chainring, pedals and luggage/contents so the 587S RavenTour fit like my 590M Nomad at home.

Second photo shows the bare bike parked next to my dining bench at a "rustic" restaurant in Romania on a little jaunt I took after unpacking at my lodging near the end of my journey. For this, just the U-lock through the frame and rear wheel were enough to reassure me the bike would not fall victim to a "grab-and-go" theft while I was eating next to it.

I have to and do take much greater precautions here at home. I think the risk depends very much on where you ride, timing and circumstance.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 10, 2021, 02:32:06 AM
Altor SAF is the big daddy at the moment I think , supposed to be resistent to angle grinders

But even that thing is too big for me 😄

Plus I have a bias towards things that are aesthetically pleasing lol

Lockpicking lawyer on YouTube seems to test varieties of different locks /chains /cables. So I would imagine if there is any current champions he will be trying to defeat them.

My other thought was getting 2 of the Abus granite x plus 540 , one for each wheel+frame , not so tough but maybe a better deterrent having two instead of one .

Although lock picking lawyer was speaking about how a good chain is tougher to cut through with an angle grinder than a d lock because they finickity and keep moving around unless held with a pair of pliers , plus they can be dangerous when they snap/shatter. Interesting

Maybe two good chains would be better than two D locks . Also , two chains could be joined together to double the length to put round that giant oak in the African village .
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Andre Jute on January 10, 2021, 03:17:00 AM
I take a systemic approach to bicycle security. For example, my bike is constructed and assembled to such tight tolerances (1mm) that nothing demounts unless you have first moved other components out of the way in a particular order. That's the key, but before that, I have another barrier, a handlebar lock that unlocks the handlebars from the steering tube and make the appear broken, unrideable, and does in fact make it unrideable. You can read about my system at
n'lock -- bike security by making the bike impossible to ride
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3930.0
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 10, 2021, 03:24:35 AM
Ha! Check out this beast lol ,,all 66lbs worth

https://youtu.be/q4MslR-_wG0
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 10, 2021, 05:07:37 AM
£135 for Almax chain and padlock

From what I can gather, this chain takes about 9.5 minutes (approx) to get through with an angle grinder . Itís the 16mm version

There is also a 19mm, 22mm and 25mm
Someone got through the 25mm in 14 minutes

Compared to the top of the line Abus D lock which might be grinded through in less than a minute ? Itís seems like a pretty good option

https://www.almax-security-chains.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=55
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 10, 2021, 11:53:59 AM
A
My other thought was getting 2 of the Abus granite x plus 540 ...
Maybe two good chains would be better than two D locks .
The usual advice for two locks is to make then different, that both increases your options and might make more work for the thief if they need two techniques/tools to beat them.
It's not just the locks, but how you use them, plenty of online advice and vids, yet I frequently see good quality locks underused - D locks with plenty of space round them and chains exposed to the  full jaws of a bolt cutters and where the floor can be used as leverage. It's feasible that you could triple the time taken by optimising the locks potential. And of course what you lock to and where, I once saw a Thorn Rohloff D locked to plastic drainpipe in Birmingham city centre  ::)
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 10, 2021, 12:22:18 PM
The plastic drainpipe made me smile 😀

Yeah been watching a bazillion vids on YouTube so picking some good tips on locking methods 👍
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 10, 2021, 12:33:24 PM
With these type of chains
https://youtu.be/LFafq-u7wqQ

Is there any chance of damaging your bike ?

Are they too heavy for the likes of a Thorn nomad?

Would there be a certain way you could attach them to the bike ?

I would be considering the 16Ē version which is the size that I think just falls into the category of being impossible to get through with bolt croppers. There are smaller sizes and also bigger sizes that go up in increments of 3mm, all the way up to 25mm
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 10, 2021, 01:35:05 PM
Oh dear, my 9.5 minute approx was a bit off. I approximated from other vids giving 14 mins for the 25mm and 12.5 mins for the 22mm

He got through this 16mm chain in just over a minute . Perfect conditions kind you

https://youtu.be/SDBRI3cgw1o
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: martinf on January 10, 2021, 10:50:14 PM
£135 for Almax chain and padlock

From what I can gather, this chain takes about 9.5 minutes (approx) to get through with an angle grinder . Itís the 16mm version

Compared to the top of the line Abus D lock which might be grinded through in less than a minute ? Itís seems like a pretty good option

https://www.almax-security-chains.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=55

Too heavy for me. The shortest 0.8 m version weighs about 3.5 kg without padlock.

No lock will prevent theft, they only provide deterrence.

For a very long time, my main lock was a 1 m length of fairly thick chain, bought in the late 1970's, which I encased in an old innertube and combined with a mid-price padlock. This looks reasonably effective, but in practice (I tested) it took me a couple of minutes to saw though a link with a new hacksaw blade (on a bench, so easier than in the field). It would probably take seconds with bolt croppers. Maybe I have been lucky (and careful where I leave the bike), but it has been sufficient theft deterrence for more than 40 years.

I also have a simple and light cable lock, from the early 1970's, which I still use, for very short stops on bikes without frame locks and for locking my pannier bags to the rack on the bike when I leave it parked.

My current main lock is an Abus Granit Plus 470/150HB U lock. I take this on rides with my day bikes if I think I will need to lock the bike (restaurant stop or similar). If I don't plan a stop I carry the lightweight cable lock just in case.

All the family utility and touring bikes have ring-type Abus 5950 NR frame locks. I use these for short stops. The big advantage of a frame lock is the ease of use, without one I would probably not bother locking in some circumstances, and so be vulnerable to an opportunistic theft. For longer stops (supermarket shopping, etc.) and when touring I add the U lock to attach the frame and one wheel to something fixed.

For some situations I add a 2 metre Abus Cobra 10/200 cable as a complement to the U lock. This doesn't have a padlock, it uses either the U lock or the frame lock.

Apart from locks, and, just as important, the choice of where and when to park the bike, the other issue with theft is insurance. In the UK it is still possible to get reasonably cheap insurance included as part of a house insurance policy, so may still be worthwhile. Here in France I worked out that the cost of insurance worked out to the price of a new bike after about 8 years, so I stopped insuring the family bicycles a long time ago. They are still covered by the house insurance if someone steals them from my garage, but I would only get the depreciated value, so not very much, my "new" tourer is now 9 years old.   

Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 11, 2021, 01:10:35 AM
Okay, after more research

It seems the Pewag (American) might be the champion of chains . And prices are cheaper than competitors

They make a 10mm, 12mm and 14mm chain for bikes . Donít think they make heavier duty stuff for motorbikes .

Their 14mm gets a better overall rating than the 16mm chains from both Almax and Pragmasis.

One of the differences is that the links are smaller and you canít put them through each other to shorten the chain. Also the 3 recommended padlocks are about £90 to £100.

https://www.brindleychains.co.uk/collections/pewag-security-chains/products/vkk10x35-security-chain?variant=48500201159
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Andre Jute on January 11, 2021, 05:11:02 AM
It's interesting to consider the ultimate lock, but you must also consider the psychology of use by the cyclist, and of the thief.

No matter how heavy your lock is, the consensus of experienced tourers is that you cannot leave the bike, locked, exposed for long.

That is why I'm keen on Dutch-style frame locks, which are already on the bike when you want to go somewhere, weigh little, don't require you to get your hands dirty, and can work with a chain or a cable if you insist on backup.

As described upthread, I use a variant, a steering lock, which makes the bike unrideable and very, very unwieldable, dangerous for anyone smaller than me. it weighs nothing extra, in the sense that the stem and handlebars I removed to fit it weighed more than the secure n'lock stem and handlebars. The handlebars also have a cable built-in if a pole is handy. A longer cable, like the handlebar cable, works with the steering lock on a single key.

The inconvenience of a frame lock or a steering lock is fleeting, like leaving and returning to a car. This can never be true with a monstrous chain: you need to assess how long the monstrous chain will remain a novelty you give the benefit of the doubt. Not to mention that I can think of dozens of places where a good strong length of chain will itself be a target of theft.

If you then add a cheap but loud alarm to draw attention to the thief, you've given him a very solid message, much more impactful than a chain for which he came prepared with an exposure-to-completion time budget and precisely the right tool. Dan pointed out to me years ago, and I haven't forgotten, that I'd rather the thief lost hope and moved on to an easier target, rather than that he damaged the historic, irreplaceable bike I ride before he decided the theft was taking too long.

I have an Abus Granit X D-lock which fits very tightly around my bike's frame, Rohloff wheel and Big Apples, and a lamppost. I don't carry it. I don't need to. I've successfully psychologically monstered the light fingers here that my bike is broken any time they see it standing with the front wheel pointing in one direction and the handlebars in another.

If you do decide on the big chain, I look forward to your reports on its use, including psychological impact on suspicious characters. If you decide on the systemic approach which has worked for so many of us, in all its variations, let us know that too.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: leftpoole on January 11, 2021, 10:51:39 AM
Following this thread!
My personal view, is that the bigger the lock, the more visible the cable through wheels etc, the more chance of theft.
Any 'decent' thief will simply cut through the frame to release it. Or in my opinion, if I were a thief (I certainly am not as it happens) I would cut through the fence rail or whatever the cycle is attached to.
Thieves are crafty -clever -and -expert in their field.
I believe Kryptonite have in the past actually employed thieves to advise! Obviously these locks are only worthwhile for a short period of time until the thieves 'catch up' with how to unlock!
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on January 11, 2021, 12:55:59 PM
My friend Keith always travels on local trips with Roger.
Keith has never had his bike stolen or tampered with.
I guess there will be a first time, like most things in life.


Roger is 5 years old.

Roger is a rottweiler.

Not sure of his weight but he tags along quite happily behind Keith.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 11, 2021, 11:34:46 PM
😁 I was looking into buying a roger but they are now two or three times the price pre lockdown 🥲
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 11, 2021, 11:44:49 PM
Lots of good info, sorry I donít respond to everything, I have 5 kids , one is 1 so Iím always pulled around. Get to jump on here sporadically

One of my thoughts was if I was touring all over the world and doing camping or wild camping, thatís when perhaps a chain thatís at the very least bolt cropper proof might be one of the best options

Iíve accept nothing is angle grinder proof , but still keen on getting a chain the will put up a good fight and maybe even win. Without the chain being too heavy.

Iíve got a good 4 stone or more to lose, so if I dropped my weight , I wouldnít mind carrying a big heavy chain on tour, it would be less than Iím carrying now 😁

The interesting thing about the pewag chains is they are smaller but stronger . Saying that, I think overall there is more chain so itís just as heavy or heavier than bigger chains

Think I would like an alarm to go along with a chain but tech canít always be trusted. I guess the alarms are battery powered?

I havenít looked into alarms or gps tracking yet, just finishing my research on chains/cables/locks

I could buy a huge tent and pull the bike in the tent with me for more peace of mind ? Anyone done that ? But does oil not leak out the rohloff if you lay it on itís side ? Iím thinking if the bike was living on its side for a good part of the day everyday would that have a negative effect ?
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 11, 2021, 11:45:59 PM
Anyone used one of the heavier duty chains and padlocks ?
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: PH on January 13, 2021, 10:56:00 AM
If you decide on the systemic approach which has worked for so many of us, in all its variations, let us know that too.
I'm sorry if anyone sees this as nit-picking and I'll make this my last contribution to this thread as I've become repetitive - But you, me, all of us don't know what works.  All the evidence we have is anecdotal, the idea that we have prevented a theft, or facilitated one, assumes we know all the other circumstances that might have contributed and we don't.  The idea that we can treat thieves as some homogenised group and know what they'll do and think and know and have certain tools,  is as unrealistic as treating cyclists the same way.  I see snipped cable locks at the city centre bike stands quite frequently, but not chains and solid locks, so there's anecdotal evidence that anything more than that will deter some. Or does it? The local police tell me they rarely see broken good quality locks, the thieves tend to remove them, maybe because they're evidence of either the theft and/or the method used.
I have anecdotes that show thieves don't steal Rohloffs, I know of two instances where Rohloff bikes have been left behind and cheaper bikes taken in their place.  I've also heard anecdotes about Rohloffs being cut out of the wheels of locked bikes, which shows how desirable they are. What conclusion can we draw from that?  All we can do is decide for ourselves the level of precaution we're prepared to implement, hope that it discourages some (And anything you do will discourage someone) while accepting that nothing we do will stop everyone.
Last anecdote - Friend who rides an upright trike (Custom built, good components) uses the flimsiest of locks. The reasoning - That might be enough to discourage joy riders (Who might not get very far if they haven't ridden one before), it isn't a cycle that could be sold easily, but it'd be worth stripping for parts.  He's locking it in the hope it deters the first two but accepting the risk of the third. 
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 13, 2021, 09:32:56 PM
PH

Thankyou, all good food for thought

Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 13, 2021, 09:39:58 PM
IF , I went the BIG over the top chain option...

Iím thinking the 25mm Almax, the biggest motorbike chain available just now .

How much length do you reckon I would need to get round say a lamp post and a Thorn nomad back wheel and Frame?

Just pondering the idea of buying a chain and getting it cut down to as short a length as possible so as to get maximum angle grinder time , and bring the weight down as much as possible

Some of these chains come in great long lengths so I could potentially take a section off and then resell the rest as a motorbike chain for home use. Or if anybody else likes my idea I could split it up into multiple small sections for other cyclists. Just a train of thought 💭
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 13, 2021, 10:47:39 PM
Here it is, the video weíve all been waiting for

Angle grinder v the big daddy of chains - Almax 25mm

https://youtu.be/5tgOBljvnL8

They also cut the 22mm but they did not cut it from both sides. In this vid they are cutting as best as possible from both sides of the link . Second cut of the link is always faster for scientific reasons to do with heat /pinching/expansion
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: JohnR on January 14, 2021, 11:07:34 AM
Iím thinking the 25mm Almax, the biggest motorbike chain available just now .
The video says it's 1.8kg per link! I think I'd prefer to carry several more conventional bike locks each of which has to be broken or cut.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: steve216c on January 14, 2021, 12:55:01 PM
What is the point of a good lock that can withstand the worst an angle-grinder can throw at it?

This headline was in the news in Berlin this week. You don't need to read German to understand what has happened when you look at the photos in this daily broadsheet:
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/neue-masche-von-fahrraddieben-in-berlin-jetzt-werden-eben-die-buegel-geknackt/26783214.html (https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/neue-masche-von-fahrraddieben-in-berlin-jetzt-werden-eben-die-buegel-geknackt/26783214.html)

Kreuzberg is a district in Berlin famous (amongst other things) for May 1st riots every year and for also bikes getting stolen. Theft-proof bike friendly stands earned the name 'Kreuzberger Buegel' (Buegel=strong frame) as the yard stick for the safe communal bike parking in the past years.

The average bike stolen in Berlin has a value of EUR 730. Why would the thieves bother with lower end models when top end bikes are often safely locked on the street with top end locks against 'thief proof' bike stands? An angle-grinder might be too conspicuous in residential areas where the noise alone would attract attention. But why bother with such an effort when the thief proof bike stands can be hacked using a pipe cutter in just 30 seconds. And the thief can merrily walk off with your trusted steed and expensive lock moments later without too much noise drawing attention to the deed.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 14, 2021, 01:02:51 PM
The weight has an advantage, no need to carry a set of dumbells or hunt for gyms ,  i can use it for a great full body workout while on the road to keep all the muscle I donít yet currently have from atrophying 😄
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 14, 2021, 01:14:18 PM
Yeah, no way would I be locking up against any bike stand

It would have to be an immovable object far tougher than the chain. Lamppost is ideal .

Again , the main thinking behind the chain is mainly for being in a situation when I would be wild camping in the middle of nowhere and would have to leave my bike outside the tent overnight , or even leave it while going for a walk for whatever length of time.

I love walking and could go off for hours at a time

In some places the only thing you might get is a tree, so a chain is your only option . And then , if itís a flimsy one , it could be cut down, so a longer length for a sturdy tree would be required. Not sure I can see locals out with a chainsaw while Iíve went for an hours hike but who knows what can happen in this mad world. Paranoid ? Absolutely lol. Got to cover every base. Just my analytical mind having fun.

Peace of mind really ,

that your bike has the highest chance of not getting stolen

I donít think I would enjoy travelling if I couldnít relax because in the back of my mind thereís still a chance some guy could grind through my D lock or thinner chain in 1 minute , instead of having a chain that will fight back to the death of either itself or the death of a couple of grinder batteries and discs

An alarm is a considerable option but in the middle of nowhere some thieves might not bat an eyelid, and as Iíve heard pointed out, the grinder may be as loud as the alarm anyway. Also with alarms your relying on technology which had the potential to break or for batteries to die , especially in colder weather.

I like the ring lock, but somebody can just pick your bike up onto their shoulder and walk away or Chuck it in the back of a van. Even ring lock with chain attached to an object- if itís a wimpy chain your still only getting a minute or so grinder time.

Iím looking for a no fuss, universal solution  for all scenarios . A chain seems to fit the Bill , can go around objects in every part of the world. Weight doesnít bother me at all. I appreciate a chain does eat into my weight allowance, bus as I hear everyone tell me , a nomad can pretty much carry anything, and Iíve accepted its going to be a slow accelerating heavy bike.

So would I actually carry around with me a heavy chain? ..... 🤔 hmmm, good question. maybe , maybe not
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 14, 2021, 03:03:47 PM
Thanks for sharing that link Steve

I learned a wee bit of German in school but a picture paints a thousand words as you say

That pretty much shows why I consider a chain so much , as I would anticipate thieves doing things like that !

Pipe cutter sales will be going up in Berlin then haha.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Andre Jute on January 14, 2021, 11:19:50 PM
...you, me, all of us don't know what works.

If we knew everything that works, we wouldn't require a discussion this long. If we don't know anything, why, we wouldn't require a discussion this long, either.

All the evidence we have is anecdotal

We know a great deal about the motivational psychology of people in general, more about the psychology of psychopaths (about one in 200 people in the UK, one in 100 in the US, much higher in jails, virtually 100% on Death Row). We can apply that knowledge to bicycle thieves and by our collected wisdom discover over time what works.

...the idea that we have prevented a theft, or facilitated one, assumes we know all the other circumstances that might have contributed and we don't.

Scientific investigation is a method of formalising repeat anecdotes into hypotheses which can be tested and turned into more or less reliable statistics. Several forum contributors weigh, literally, security hardware against a psychological expectation they have of bicycle thieves. It works for us. That isn't to imply though that we have perfect knowledge, or even believe that we can ever have perfect knowledge, but that when enough anecdotes have been gathered to distinguish a trend, cyclists can act on partial knowledge; that is part of the purpose of cycling fora, and your own post demonstrates a method of formalising knowledge (for instance by speaking to the police), acknowledgement that the knowledge isn't complete, and demonstrations of the method of sharing knowledge, building it past the anecdotal stage to critical actionable mass, and acting on substantial but never complete knowledge.

Here endeth the Karl Popper Memorial Reading. The barmaid will now recharge all glasses and we'll raise a tankard to the uncertainty over the next hill.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on January 14, 2021, 11:33:46 PM
Thanks Andre.
Good points raised and I like your thinking.

A smile crossed my lips while reading your thoughts as I recalled a quote from some years back:

There are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns ó the ones we don't know we don't know.

I'll refrain from identifying the author.

Matt, who loves a good quote.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: JohnR on January 15, 2021, 09:22:21 AM
that is part of the purpose of cycling fora
Thus spoke a man whom, I presume, was taught Latin (ie the plural of forum is not forums but fora). ;D
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: martinf on January 15, 2021, 09:38:30 AM
One possibility for making multi-lock use easier is to have a single key for several locks.

This is possible with the Abus YourPlus system:
https://www.abus.com/be_fr/Securite-en-deplacement/Velo/Antivols/YourPlus

All my frame locks, my U-lock and the (relatively new) padlock for my old chain have the same key.

My lightweight cable lock from the 1970's is the odd one out with a different key.

The padlock is:
https://www.abus.com/be_fr/content/view/full/47961
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2021, 07:15:02 PM
This older thread may still be relevant to those concerned about parts theft while a bike is parked and locked...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4823.msg24349#msg24349
Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Danneaux on January 21, 2021, 07:18:02 PM
This too...about whether and how to take a U-lock on a world tour...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3721.msg15895#msg15895

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: UKTony on January 21, 2021, 10:13:02 PM
Just thought Iíd check what  a world tourer did in 1963. Dervla Murphyís kit list in her book ďFull Tilt - Ireland to India by bicycleĒmakes no mention of a bike lock but does include one .25 automatic pistol and 4 rounds of ammunition.
Of course Iím not suggesting..........
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: Danneaux on January 22, 2021, 02:05:10 AM
I have that book! As I recall, the pistol and ammo came in handy when she was chased by wolves in a forest, too. :o

It is a corker of a book, gripping from cover to cover.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: ourclarioncall on January 22, 2021, 09:38:24 AM
Thanks Dan for the links 👍
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: UKTony on January 22, 2021, 09:55:22 AM
Yes. Itís ten or more years since I read it and am thinking I might pick it up again.  She set off in January 1963 in the middle of one of the worst winters on record with lots of woolly clothing, no high tech stuff then. Weíve got a dramatic change for the good in the weather here in SW England toady - dry, sunny but cold - hoping the temperature might just rise by mid morning enough to deal with any slippery roads and Iíve got no excuse to go out to get out on the Nomad!
The other lady who was prolific in the 1980s with many  epic rides  and writing was Bettina Selby. Start with ď Riding the mountains down ď pub about 1984.
Cheers, have a good day.
T.
Title: Re: Theft prevention
Post by: FaustoCoppi on January 30, 2021, 08:07:40 PM
I had to hurtle out of a rather upmarket patisserie in Anger (France) I was angry! In order to recover a bidon from our tandem that was parked up outside, as I was standing at the til a group of youths walked past and lifted said bidon , bidon duly recovered much to amusement of patisserie owner and surprise of would be thief!