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Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: willywombat on January 26, 2020, 11:03:39 pm

Title: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 26, 2020, 11:03:39 pm
[Topic title changed to better reflect the whole of the thread -- Dan.]

Hello all
Please bear with me and forgive me If my understanding is wrong as I've never built a wheel but I've recently  been getting somewhat frustrated with trying to get a Speedhub built up correctly , in order to ensure warranty requirements are met.

I personally have owned a speedhub since 2005 without issue and recommended one to my brother who requested it as a retirement present.

His colleagues clubbed together and sourced the hub from SJSC a few months ago and I was recently asked to get it laced locally so got in contact with a wheelbuilder  who has a very good reputation but little experience with speedhubs themselves .

 I purchased the rim ( stans Baron 27.5 ) then came across the info in the handbook re different 2x lacing with french /european spoke hole patterns etc .

 I had seen on another website that the  current official manual ,available to download , had incorrectly labelled "leading" and "trailing" spokes and repeated this  mistake in the instructions also . I have a manual from 2005 and it's  the same there so has probably caused a number of incorrect lacings as a result over the years if you didn't pay careful attention and notice the mistake. My hub itself was in fact  laced incorrectly all those years ago as a result of this.

I also read through Mr Blance's comprehensive guide to" living with a Rohloff hub 2019" and he himself has ..it seems , made a mistake regarding this issue and  inadvertently reinforced incorrect information.

 In the article on p34/35 he states amongst other things " Many wheel builders don’t listen to Rohloff’s wheel building directives and their failure to comply can lead to hub flange failure. Rohloff are apparently targeting these irresponsible wheel builders by specifically limiting their warranty on broken hub flanges to 24 months." well ..considering the info in the handbook is a real mess is that fair ?

Also ..apparently Rohloff have identified 6 reasons for the hub flange failures and one of them is :
" The wheels have been incorrectly built with the pulling spokes exiting the hub from the outside of the flanges. This means that the spokes press against the hub flange exacerbating any of the other issues: He states that :
The solution is to have the pulling spokes exit the hub from the inside of the flange, exactly as it says in the
manual."

My understanding is that the "pulling"spokes are the trailing spokes and according to Rohloff should actually have the spoke head on the inside of the flange and thereby exit on the outside . If this is correct it seems Mr Blance  himself has been caught out by the wording mistakes in the manual too! Again , if I'm correct. what hope do  we have in getting things right if he can't with years of experience?

I went through a few images in the current official manual as well as looking at some  images of  older Thorn speedhub bike builds and the vast majority had the leading spokes with the  head on the outer side of the flange as I would have expected . I did however also find a few Thorn built speedhub wheel  with the spoke heads the other way round  in relation to  what we are now told is imperative. On top of this the spokes crossed the non drive side bolt holes too .

What I'm trying to say is that it has been made clear that Rohloff insist on  specific lacing  to avoid issues such as flange breakages ,but the literature produced by themselves and elsewhere  doesn't make it difficult to get  thoroughly confused.

Mr Blance may have made a mistake ( or may not have ? ) but Rohloff have and have no excuse not to clear this all up. They were informed a good while back and the mistakes remain .

Mr Blance also goes on to say "Rohloff say that they will no longer support those whose wheels have not been built in accordance with their directives - even if they are victims of bad wheel building practice and/or wheel builders, who for reasons of pride,ignorance or meanness don’t follow these directives." :  Again ...is this fair with the all the mistakes  that people may well refer to before a build?

 Finally I'm sorry if this post contains any incorrect information and /or is difficult to digest because of my presentation. I am currently  very unwell  and struggled to get my points across but I hope you get the gist . Maybe I've got it all wrong so please feel free to correct anything I may have misunderstood. I've attached a few pages relating to the literature involved if you'd like to have a look yourself and offer an opinion.




Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 27, 2020, 02:54:47 am
One of my attachments would not post, too big.  I had to make a graphic from a screen shot and crop it, then attach later, thus the attached files are not in correct order.

***

I am not going to say what is right or what is wrong, I will just say what I did when I built my wheel in 2013.  That wheel has been trouble free on my Nomad since then.

I bought the Nomad frame in 2013, bought my Ryde Andra 30 CSS rims from SJS in the same order.  I bought my hub from another supplier in Germany.  I live in USA, bought Wheelsmith spokes and Sapim nipples from a supplier in USA.  My hub is for rim brakes, not disc.  I also built up a 36 spoke wheel, so my spoke lengths are slightly different than a typical SJS 32 spoke wheel.

I have a lot of difficulty keeping the terminology of leading and trailing spokes straight, so I look at half of the spokes as being pulling spokes, meaning when you pedal and that puts torque on the hub, that hub then pulls on half the spokes with more tension, which forces the wheel to go around.  So, I refer to those spokes as the pulling spokes.  I do not really have a name for the other half of the spokes, for purposes of this e-mail I will call them non-pulling spokes.

The manual you cited is newer than the manual I used.  Since I sourced my hub from Germany, I received instructions in German, which I cannot read.  So, I downloaded the english language manuals from Rohloff at that time.  And I still have my copies of those downloaded manuals which are older than yours.

I attached some files, the file labeled R1 has pages 55 and 56, I am referencing only page 55:

It makes it clear that my 26 inch wheel takes a 2 cross pattern, it is bigger than 24 inch.

In photo 3, you clearly are on the non-drive side of the wheel (or left side of the bike) because the hub cap screws in the photo are only on the non-drive side.  Thus, when the hub rotates counter clockwise, the wheel will push the bike forward.  From that photo the spoke labeled "leading" will pull harder on rim to accelerate the bike, thus, that means that what Rohloff calls  the leading spokes are what I call pulling spokes.

And you can see in that photo that the head of the spoke is inside, not outside of the flange on a pulling or leading spoke.

The pulling spokes on both sides of the wheel (both drive side and non-drive side) should have their spoke heads matching, meaning on both sides of the wheel the leading or pulling spokes should have their heads on the inside sides of their flanges.

The purpose of photos 3 and 4 are to tell you how to lace the non-drive side spokes relative to the cap screws.  I believe that SJS may have done this differently than the photos on page 55 on some bikes.

File R2 shows pages 35 and 36.  Of the three hubs that do not have disc brakes, you can see that all three of those hub photos have the spokes oriented to the cap screws and all three of those hubs have the pulling spokes with the spoke heads inside the same as in the photo on page 55.  The fourth wheel with disc brake, the disc obscures the detail on the spokes, cap screws and flange holes.  Also all three of those rim brake wheels have the leading or pulling spoke heads on the inside on both drive and non-drive side.

Third file shows my rear wheel, photo was taken in 2014.  (SJS recommends against using kickstands, thus disregard the kickstand on my bike.)  I laced my wheel to match the photos in the Rohloff manual.

So, I am not saying what is right or what is wrong, I am just saying I matched the photos that Rohloff had in their manuals at the time I built the wheel.

I am not going to spend an time comparing old and new Rohloff manuals or how they compare to SJS documents, my bike works fine so I am done researching it.

I do not know if you have built wheels before, but the Rohloff wheel is an expensive wheel to get it wrong.  I would recommend against learning on that wheel.  But if this is your first wheel and if you are going to lace it up, I think Sheldon has an excellent tutorial on wheelbuilding at:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Even though I have been building wheels off and on since the 1970s and I built my own wheel, I had a friend check the spoke tension since I do not have a tension meter.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Andre Jute on January 27, 2020, 03:02:44 am
Willy, take what I say for what it is worth. I've never built a wheel from scratch but I did manage to retune a badly built set of wheels on a Gazelle (a Gazelle! -- apparently it can happen to anyone), and I found a mathematical error in Jobst Brandt's key book on the subject, The Bicycle Wheel, which Jobst, a very prickly character, confessed to under much pressure, so I have some modest understanding of how the wheel works. But, much more usefully to you, I routinely hold manufacturers and vendors to the absolute letter of their promises, and if they don't deliver, I don't bother to go to court, I just smear them a couple of million in adverse  publicity and dump the Trading Standards and the Revenue  and the Customs and Excise on their heads.

1. I haven't read the two spreads of the manual you thoughtfully provided. I don't care whether you're right or the manual-Rohloff-Thorn are right; I'm not qualified to adjudicate between you. Instead I read the two pages of Andy Blance's text you provided, and I referred to what I know of Rohloff's generous warranty practice, which Mr Blance lays out. Why? Because all you need to know to exit this morass of uncertainty that you're in is this: If you do the right thing, according to people who have been doing this successfully for a lifetime, they will take the financial responsibility for making a mistake (or being utterly in the wrong, as you claim) off your shoulders.

2. It follows that the smart thing to do is to send the hub back to Thorn (with the rim if they approve of it, otherwise sell it and buy a rim from Thorn) and let them build the wheel and take the responsibility. It will be well worth the extra cost in your brother's peace of mind as he rides his bike, perhaps far from home. In the long run it will be worth many times the extra cost.

3. I will tell you in general that, like you, I've been riding a Rohloff for many years, and that mine is absolutely guaranteed to have been built into its wheel to the very last detail of Herr Rohloff's specification in the manual by people who are on first-name terms with him, and it is still as good as new. That's the other factor of importance I see for your decision, that your own wheel hasn't broken, but not weighing as heavily as Thorn and Rohloff taking the financial responsibility off you and placing squarely on their own broad shoulders.

4. Local wheel builders of "high reputation" often have that reputation regardless of their actual ability because the local cyclists have no one to compare them to, so they have to trust the accessible wheel builder. I once investigated having a wheel built and was told the best man was X; actually, he was the only man. I went up to the city to see him. He was about forty. He was self-taught, he said, because the last master wheel builder was dead by the time he started his bike shop; mostly, instead of building wheels, he preferred his customers to order computer-built wheels. Under no circumstance, he also said, would he build a wheel for a guy with a column in a national newspaper for fear that "a finicky bastard like you" (that's what he said) would ruin his business. There was, he told me after I nonetheless bought a bunch of expensive tools in his shop and ordered more for him to drop off to me when he went to visit his mum down the road from me, one acceptable builder in the country, in Dublin (160 miles away), "but you have to take the wheel he builds with the spokes he selects, not the wheel some German wants". That's a capsule example of what Andy Blance means by "wheel builders, who for reasons of pride, ignorance or meanness don’t follow these directives." The bane of sophisticated machinery is an elderly local "craftsman" who knows better. Cocky kids are worse.

5. If you decide to go ahead with the local builder, at least ask to see his tools. They should include a spoke tension meter from Park or DT Swiss or some other reputable supplier and a truing stand.

6. If you decide to do the job yourself, you may just get away with Chinese copies of the Park and DT Swiss tools, but they will still escalate the cost of the wheel well above what it will cost to have SJS build it for you -- and take the financial responsibility. For a wheel truing stand, you can make do with an upside down bicycle, a few pegs off the washing line, and some small pieces of cardboard or thin plastic. Here are some images from SJS to help you identify the major tools:

(https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/11191.jpg)

OR this one:

(https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/39535.jpg)

AND this one (OR an upside down bike)

(https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/830.jpg)
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: martinf on January 27, 2020, 07:59:10 am
I generally try and build my own wheels (since about 1980), but made an exception for the two Rohloff wheels I own, which I had built by SJS cycles (= Thorn).

The two wheels are not built the same as each other, and are not the same as the wheels in the manual extracts and photos posted by George.

The 2011 wheel on my Raven Tour has the pulling (leading) spokes on both sides with the heads to the outside of the hub flanges and the bends on the inside.

The 2016 wheel on my Raven Sport Tour has the pulling (leading) spokes on the right hand (drive) side with the heads to the outside of the hub flanges and the bends on the inside, but the  pulling (leading) spokes on the left hand (non-drive) side with the heads to the inside of the hub flanges and the bends on the outside.

Both Rohloff wheels are used with rim brakes, so I can't see any reason for this difference. When I received them I checked the wheels for out-of-round/side-to-side errors and spoke tightness, they were the only wheels that have passed through my hands recently that I deemed good enough not to need tweaking.

ALL the other wheels supplied on new or used bikes that I have acquired over the past 20 to 30 years have needed at least the spoke tension increased. They have sometimes also needed the correction of out-of-round or side-to-side wobbles.

So I reckon the orientation of the trailing/leading spokes makes no difference on a well-built, normal size (26", 650B, 700C) Rohloff wheel. Except maybe for the flange failure issue, which seems to be a specific potential weakness of the Rohloff hub, addressed in the past few years by the addition of flange reinforcing rings.

And I would go with the advice of André as to getting the hub built into a wheel by SJS/Thorn, because I believe they will guarantee their wheel build in the (unlikely) event of a flange failure.

For Rohloff and other hubs with large flanges I believe rims with specific drillings (angle-drilled) are best.

Rohloff are also particular about the spokes that should be used, with specific recommandations for the length of the bend near the spoke head, the finish of the head itself and the spoke diameter at the hub end.

- - - - - - - - - -

If I had built my Rohloff wheels myself I would probably have put the pulling (leading) spokes on both sides with the heads to the inside of the hub flange as George has done, this is how I believe (normal sized) rear wheels with rim brakes should be built.

- - - - - - - - - -

And if I ever get another Rohloff hub, now that I know about the spoke/rim issues, I would be confident building the wheel myself after asking for clarification from Rohloff on the recommended orientation of the leading/pulling spokes. I would not trust any local wheel builder with the job. I do know one very good builder, but he has little experience with hub gears.

Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 27, 2020, 11:24:15 am
" Many wheel builders don’t listen to Rohloff’s wheel building directives and their failure to comply can lead to hub flange failure.
It made me chuckle the first time I read that - the only wheelbuilders I know who deviate from the Rohloff instructions are SJS!  My 700c wheel on a Mercury is currently built, by SJS after a flange failure, 1X with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange.  I have no idea why they've done that, it's not a one-off, some of the bikes in the current catalogue are the same, but not all of them.  I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.  I've never seen any other wheel, Rohloff or otherwise, built up like that.
Do I care?  Not a jot, SJS have demonstrated again and again that they stand behind what they do.  I'm entirely with Andre, I'd let them build the wheel and take the risk.

I do have another Rohloff, which I've built myself into a 24" folder wheel.  I bought this secondhand and this is it's third wheel size when Rohloff's advise is to not change size and pattern.  I'm aware of the risk and took it into account when negotiating the price.  I've built this 1X and followed the previous spoke orientation, this aligned the spokes as closely as possible with the existing wear marks.  Time wil tell...
Although the Rohloff warranty has been reduced, which I do find disappointing on a premium product, a broken flange isn't the end of the world if they'll still supply a replacement at a reasonable cost.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 27, 2020, 12:46:09 pm
Hello again and thanks to all for your contributions and advice ...

 I agree ideally I should get SJSC to build the wheel but I wanted an unusual Rim which they do not stock and offer nothing similar ( 27.5 " 32 hole 35 mm internal diameter ) .I do not know if they build wheels with rims not provided by themselves and with regards to the extended flange warranty that seems only to be offered on wheels built by themselves and as part of a complete bike purchase.

 I am simply intensely frustrated that so much emphasis is made re the hub being laced correctly but there seems to be  nothing in print that is clear and unambiguous .What is available is full of mistakes it appears.  I am  also aware of the lacing differences for what Rohloff call French and European spoke patterns (which appear to be related to left and right stagger drillings ) which adds another dimension to have to be aware of as well as  the required spoke neck length/ diameters etc.

I feel it is not satisfactory to have to rely on SJSC's to have a wheel built and know it has been done correctly or at least to cover yourself in relation to warranty issues . For such an expensive item  the correct information should be available to any wheel builder in a clear and definitive format thereby eliminating undue anxiety regarding whether it has been done correctly.

 I  had arranged for the wheel to be built this week but have had to cancel that now until I can get  some definitive answers.
 
I 'd like to ask MartinF if he is certain when he says that the "pulling "spokes are the leading spokes? In my mind when you pedal it is the trailing spokes that pull the rear rim around as you pedal but I  could well be mistaken. Once this is ascertained I will be able to confirm whether Andy Blance has made a mistake or not in his article. No doubt there will be different opinions to further complicate the issue as it seems nothing is agreed upon in the eclectic world of wheel builders.

Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 27, 2020, 01:22:36 pm
Seems like Sheldon Brown is indicating that the most likely spoke to be termed a "pulling "spoke would be the trailing spoke  : Here's a quote from his wheel building guide :

"The "trailing" spokes pull harder under drive torque to make the rim turn, and the "leading" spokes contribute by pulling less hard under driving torque. Each group of spokes contributes equally in its own way to turning the rim to keep up with the hub.
Trailing Spokes
Some writers have referred to the trailing spokes as "driving" or "pulling" spokes, and have referred to the leading spokes as "tension" or "static" spokes. These terms may be confusing, because all of the spokes contribute to driving, they are all under tension and they all pull. Depending on how you look at it, either all of them or none of them are "static". (Thanks to John Forester for suggesting "leading" and "trailing".)
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 27, 2020, 02:45:16 pm
I have just spoken to "Marko" at Rohloff HQ who is responsible for the manual/handbook incl the download.

After considerable discussion he agreed the information on the pages I attached at the beginning of this thread ( downloaded yesterday from their site )contained numerous mistakes in the image labelling  and instructions  regarding leading and trailing spokes, and how easy it would be to make a mistake as a result.

 I pressed him on whether if mistakes in lacing are made as a result of this fact and the flange integrity was undermined ( as mentioned in Mr Blance's article) whether Rohloff would warranty this and he said Yes.

He promised that in 10 mins a correctly labelled updated version of the manual would finally be available for download but I haven't seen it yet and will check later.

So ..if it is corrected today it will have taken them 15 plus years to do it . I  also do hope that if it is finally more comprehensible
 and it will help future owners to avoid a migraine . 

Now all  that's  left is to sort out the issue re Mr Blance stating that the "Pulling" spokes should have  the heads on the outside of the flange.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 27, 2020, 04:10:27 pm
Removing the words leading and trailing from the equation, the Rohloff manual and Andy Blance's statement in "Living with a Rohloff Hub" "The wheels have been incorrectly built with the pulling spokes exiting the hub from the outside of the flanges This means that the spokes press against the hub flange exacerbating any of the other issues.  The solution is to have the pulling spokes exit the hub from the inside of the flange, exactly as it says in the manual." are at odds. What is shown in the manual is the exact opposite of Andy's statement.

I'm sure it's been written about on this forum before, but with Rohloff now taking a firmer stance on their 24 month warranty for flange failures on wheels which aren't built to their specified lacing pattern, it should definitely be clarified.

On the SJS Cycles website out of photos of  20 separate Rohloff hub bikes, only one has the wheel laced as specified in the Rohloff manual, a used Thorn Sterling, all 19 others are laced in the fashion Andy Blance has stated to be correct.

I think you would be best to contact Rohloff for clarification.

Edit: I see that you have now had a phone conversation with "Marko" at Rohloff HQ. Did he say whether the pictures were correct (minus the leading/trailing labels) or is Andy Blance correct?   
 
From what I've seen, all bikes shown or linked to on the Rohloff website are at odds with Andy's statement and are laced in accordance with the photos in the Rohloff manual, even the two Thorns (Raven Sport Tour & Raven Nomad Mk1 S&S) last updated in 2011 but old photos.

Rohloff/Thorn should update their available Raven range on the Rohloff website's "Bike Finder".


 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 27, 2020, 04:43:27 pm
"What is shown in the manual is the exact opposite of Andy's statement."

 I'm glad someone else is starting to see my point even if we forget the issue re the incorrect labelling/descriptions .
 
The whole issue seems totally unclear ..full of different viewpoints/definitions/terminology  previous examples etc and trying to clarify is proving far harder than it should be . I'm sure someone will come along soon to say it's all perfectly clear just as Andy Blance says " Exactly as it says in the manual!"
 
When speaking to Marko (or was it Marco?) even he seemed to get confused  but eventually we settled on : leading spokes head outside flange , Trailing spokes head inside flange as per the photos themselves which as you say seems to be the opposite of Andy Blance's statement ( unless he calls leading spokes "pulling" ). This is also the opposite of many of Thorn's own wheel builds.

To be honest ,despite reassuring me that the mistakes would be corrected with an immediate ( 10mins ..his words) update to the latest downloadable manual , 2 hrs later all is the same . I have just emailed him with an attachment showing the pages where the mistakes are to be found ( from the appendix) so there can be no confusion at his end. 

I suspect that my initial celebration that all will be corrected may not actually materialize and the confusion will continue which is not acceptable. I'm now starting to question whether the info re which way the spokes must cross over/under each other ( see "pointer") is also actually correct,  or once again, they have used trailing for leading and vica versa.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 27, 2020, 04:52:24 pm
I have just spoken to "Marko" at Rohloff HQ who is responsible for the manual/handbook incl the download.
After considerable discussion he agreed the information on the pages I attached at the beginning of this thread ( downloaded yesterday from their site )contained numerous mistakes in the image labelling  and instructions  regarding leading and trailing spokes, and how easy it would be to make a mistake as a result. I pressed him on whether if mistakes in lacing are made as a result of this fact and the flange integrity was undermined ( as mentioned in Mr Blance's article) whether Rohloff would warranty this and he said Yes.  . He promised that in 10 mins a correctly labelled updated version of the manual would finally be available for download but I haven't seen it yet and will check later.
So ..if it is corrected today it will have taken them 15 plus years to do it . I  also do hope that if it is finally more comprehensible it will help future owners to avoid a migraine . 
Now all  that's  left is to sort out the issue re Mr Blance stating that the "Pulling" spokes should have  the heads on the outside of the flange.

Well done!  This topic is of great interest to me, because despite the good advice of other members here, I plan to (probably) build up my own Rohloff wheel myself, and it would be my first Rohloff build.  I'll get to the reasons later, but this sort of exactness and hunting down of (sometimes obscure) details, in order to strengthen our knowledge and self reliance - is exactly why I come to this forum.  So, again, well done, and I appreciate your tenacity.

For what it's worth, when I ordered my Nomad back in 2011, I was mostly very impressed with all aspects of the transaction and of the bike.  There were three exceptions.  Despite my clear instructions to not cut the steerer to my guessed at proper size, a mistake somewhere down the line was made and it came already cut.  It turned out, of course, that since then, I'd always have been a bit more comfortable than Thorns sizing guidelines, and my own optimism, led me to think, and I've always wanted just another three quarters of an inch more steerer length.  Oh well, not a really big deal, and I can always buy a new fork, but it goes to show that all companies and individuals can make mistakes.  That is why I would like to be as knowledgeable and self sufficient as possible.

It was a significantly bigger deal for me lower, that after all the emphasis on quality in the brochure, I received the rohloff wheel built up well, but the front was so badly done, that I could not get the brakes nice and tight the way they should be without bad rubbing.  I had to keep my pads so far off the wobbly rim surface that I was close to bottoming out the brakes during a hard squeeze.  Good thing I ride like someones old granny on her Sunday ride.  I had the wheel properly tensioned here, locals, but it burst the bubble for me a bit.  Nobody is perfect all the time.

And the last small quality quibble was in the front Thorn low riders.  Love em', but mine came with one of the black spacers without it's hole being threaded, making it completely useless.  Fortunately they provide two widths so three out of the four were fine, but how did quality control drop the ball that far? But I'm not complaining at all, as small glitches are a part of life. Life's too short to spend it grumbling, right.  :)

As I acknowledged earlier, I agree it is wise advice to let the experts at Thorn do the Rohloff lacing up of my next hub, but I'm not going to take that advice on principle.  I want to know how to do it, and we don't get to lace up Rohloffs every month.  Heck, I could just simply take my bike in for every bit of service there is, right?  The bike would probably run better, I'd be more broke, and for sure not nearly as much involved in cycling as now, where I have to figure things out and make them more perfect than any mechanic would take the time to do.

Can we imagine if Danneaux just simply let his LBS do it all for him?  So here's to fussing over minute details and reaching always further.  Glad so many here do it.  I'm going to lace up my own Rohloff hub. Yep.  Just as soon as I figure out what these nipple things are for.

And what if Thorn gets sold one day - to some Walmart sort of corporate giant? But by then I'll know what a trailing nipple is.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 27, 2020, 05:20:35 pm
that's a nice compliment Pavel and thanks for taking the time to make it. I suffer  quite badly with depression/anxiety etc  , currently have poor concentration / energy and making progress on this issue is proving rather taxing.

I too, like to be self reliant and understand things . I have very little income and so try to maintain /repair and make whatever I can to keep costs down.

 In the midst of all this I keep thinking I've got it all wrong and misinterpreted or not understood  something but I don't want to let it go until there's a crystal clear resolution . Rohloff are becoming very pernickety  how wheels are built  (re warranty issues) but  so many issues are unclear. I don't think people should be discouraged from building their own because of uncertainty / conflicting information etc.

At least ,so far ,nobody has had issue with any of my observations ,but that may be due to the effort involved in scrutinizing what I've suggested maybe wrong!

I'm hoping others will help make the push to get all the required info into a definitive unambiguous resource  to which all who are interested can refer to , in the certain knowledge it is correct, ....just like a manual should be !
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 27, 2020, 05:24:37 pm
" Many wheel builders don’t listen to Rohloff’s wheel building directives and their failure to comply can lead to hub flange failure.
It made me chuckle the first time I read that - the only wheelbuilders I know who deviate from the Rohloff instructions are SJS!  My 700c wheel on a Mercury is currently built, by SJS after a flange failure, 1X with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange.  I have no idea why they've done that, it's not a one-off, some of the bikes in the current catalogue are the same, but not all of them.  I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.  I've never seen any other wheel, Rohloff or otherwise, built up like that.
Do I care?  Not a jot, SJS have demonstrated again and again that they stand behind what they do.  I'm entirely with Andre, I'd let them build the wheel and take the risk.

I do have another Rohloff, which I've built myself into a 24" folder wheel.  I bought this secondhand and this is it's third wheel size when Rohloff's advise is to not change size and pattern.  I'm aware of the risk and took it into account when negotiating the price.  I've built this 1X and followed the previous spoke orientation, this aligned the spokes as closely as possible with the existing wear marks.  Time wil tell...
Although the Rohloff warranty has been reduced, which I do find disappointing on a premium product, a broken flange isn't the end of the world if they'll still supply a replacement at a reasonable cost.

PH, any chance that you could post a photo of your wheel?
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 27, 2020, 06:14:14 pm
PH, any chance that you could post a photo of your wheel?
Here you go, though it's not always this clean, click for bigger
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49450965646_043c34707f.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ikP8eY)P1020588 (https://flic.kr/p/2ikP8eY) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49450485078_87140d4bd9.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ikLEoj)P1020592 (https://flic.kr/p/2ikLEoj) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 27, 2020, 06:15:48 pm
Same hub in a previous life
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49450485383_487c082c3c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ikLEtz)Bust flange (https://flic.kr/p/2ikLEtz) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 27, 2020, 06:38:34 pm
Looks like I laced mine up the same way that the failed flange that Ph has posted the photo of. But since that matches the lacing pattern that Rohloff showed in their photos in my manual that was current when I bought my hub in 2013, I am not going to worry about it, as I built my wheel the same way that Rohloff used for their photos.. 

And as Martinf mentioned, the new flange reinforcing rings likely make the potential of a flange failure much less of an issue.  I added the flange rings about a year ago too, that should reduce any side stress that Rohloff cited.

My own rear derailleur bike wheels, on one I built it with the heads on the pulling spokes on the inside, another wheel on the outside.  I just had to go look at the third derailleur touring wheel that I built up, heads on the outside.  Manufacturers often recommend that the pulling spokes have the heads on the inside, but on a deraileur bike it can be advantageous if the spokes are laced the other way if a chain gets in between the spokes and cassette.  Bottom line, I do not think it is a big deal, especially since Rohloff and SJS appear to be on different wavelengths.

Regarding local builders, I was talking to a mechanic that said he would be building up a Rohloff wheel in the near future, since my Rohloff was the only one he ever saw, he looked closely at it.  And he wondered why I did not use 3 cross like he planned.  I do not think I need to elaborate more on what this says about some local builders.

One more point, you already said you had your rim.  If the rim nipple holes are not oriented at the sharp angle that the spokes will have from a Rohloff hub, Sapim Polyax nipples may work better than others, as they may take the different orientation slightly better.  I used those for that reason.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 27, 2020, 06:41:35 pm
Thanks, PH.
Very strange. Looks like the erroneous picture 5 on page 132 of the Rohloff manual. It also has all the spoke heads on the outside, it also has the arrow pointing to the front, facing the wrong way. lol.   

willywombat,
Rohloff seems to have changed the labels on picture 3 and changed the wording in the description on page 61. Unfortunately, they have missed out on relabeling any of the pictures or rewording the description in the appendix pages 131 & 132.   

The result will be more confusing until rectified property. 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 27, 2020, 07:11:18 pm
Thanks, PH.
Very strange. Looks like the erroneous picture 5 on page 132 of the Rohloff manual, It also has all the spoke heads on the outside though that has the spokes crossing twice. It also looks like it was drawn rather than photographed. It also has the arrow pointing to the front, facing the wrong way. lol.   
Odd yes, particularly considering the talk from Thorn about not following Rohloff's instructions ;D
Looking at the current brochures, it seems to be the way they're now doing it, the Mercury in 650B & 700C both have their Rohloffs built this way.  i haven't looked at the others.
Though I repeat - I'm not being critical, they can build them however they want, I know from experience that they put it right (And quickly) if it goes wrong.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 27, 2020, 07:19:15 pm
Looks like I laced mine up the same way that the failed flange that Ph has posted the photo of. But since that matches the lacing pattern that Rohloff showed in their photos in my manual that was current when I bought my hub in 2013, I am not going to worry about it, as I built my wheel the same way that Rohloff used for their photos.. 

I bought that bike in 2004 and I think the flange broke in 2009, the first six years were the hardest on the hub, 140 miles a week rough commuting, which is what I bought it for.
Broke on a Sunday, phoned SJS on Monday, posted Tuesday, back with me on Friday.  I've had punctures it's taken me longer to fix!
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 27, 2020, 07:37:03 pm


I've had punctures it's taken me longer to fix!

 ;D
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: martinf on January 27, 2020, 08:31:05 pm
It made me chuckle the first time I read that - the only wheelbuilders I know who deviate from the Rohloff instructions are SJS!  My 700c wheel on a Mercury is currently built, by SJS after a flange failure, 1X with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange.  I have no idea why they've done that

That's how SJS advised me to build a Nexus 8 Premium hub onto à 16" rim for a Brompton.

I believe that the logic for the small Brompton wheel is that placing the spoke heads all outside reduces the angle the spokes make laterally at the rim.

And 1X rather than the 2X generally used on large wheels reduces the angle the spokes make in the vertical plane.

Both these effects help spoke alignment at the rim, which can otherwise be pretty awful with a big hub and a small rim.

I have built wheels theoretically far worse than that and they have worked OK. An example is a Shimano Nexus 7 hub built onto a 16" rim for a Moulton. 36 spokes, built 3X because I couldn't find spokes short enough to build 1 cross (probably best) or even 2 cross.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 27, 2020, 10:30:08 pm
On the failed flange that PH had, it is possible that such a failure could have happened and gone unnoticed for a very long time if that hub had the new reinforcing rings.  On a rim brake bike you might develop a spot of brake rub, but a dirty hub, the dirt could easily hide such a failure. 

The spokes on that wheel look like they were straight gauge.  I was unable to source the lengths I needed in a butted spoke, thus I also used straight gauge spokes on my wheel.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 27, 2020, 11:08:02 pm
On the failed flange that PH had, it is possible that such a failure could have happened and gone unnoticed for a very long time if that hub had the new reinforcing rings.  On a rim brake bike you might develop a spot of brake rub, but a dirty hub, the dirt could easily hide such a failure. 

The spokes on that wheel look like they were straight gauge.  I was unable to source the lengths I needed in a butted spoke, thus I also used straight gauge spokes on my wheel.

I've wondered about that myself, if the reinforcing rings might not simply make a crack invisible for a time.  What are they made of, is it a plastic or an aluminum band?
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 27, 2020, 11:44:27 pm
On the failed flange that PH had, it is possible that such a failure could have happened and gone unnoticed for a very long time if that hub had the new reinforcing rings.  On a rim brake bike you might develop a spot of brake rub, but a dirty hub, the dirt could easily hide such a failure. 

The spokes on that wheel look like they were straight gauge.  I was unable to source the lengths I needed in a butted spoke, thus I also used straight gauge spokes on my wheel.

I've wondered about that myself, if the reinforcing rings might not simply make a crack invisible for a time.  What are they made of, is it a plastic or an aluminum band?

Aluminum, painted or anodized, not sure which.

There is a small flange (not sure if the word flange is right word here) on the ring so that the ring will not slide onto the hub too far.  That ring-flange makes the ring look thicker than it is.  I attached a photo of the ring after I put it on the non-drive side of my hub when I added the rings.  If the hub looks odd, it is a 36 spoke hub, not 32.  Also, the nine spokes that I had to remove from the rim are not yet attached to the rim, so those spokes are not oriented correctly yet.  I had just added the ring to the non-drive side, but was not done yet re-attaching the nipples to the spokes.

In the photo, the drive side ring is already installed, drive side spokes were attached and tightened up. 

I think a dirty hub (dirty hubs are common when bike touring) would hide a crack quite easily.  Especially with a black hub like mine.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Andre Jute on January 27, 2020, 11:50:37 pm
Here's the Rohloff wheel on my Kranich. It's relevance to this discussion is that Utopia, makers of the Kranich, were the first OEM to specify the Rohloff on their bikes, that the owners are manic obsessive Germans who do everything precisely to the component manufacturer's most casual suggestion and then have it professionally tested to destruction, that Bernd Rohloff designed the quick-change Rohloff axle hanger for them, and that they created rather than merely set (they did that too) the fashion for Rohloff Speed 14 as the ultimate touring transmission (Herr Rohloff conceived it as a mud plugger's gearbox...), and, finally, that these people are on first name terms with Herr Rohloff and that he attends their annual summer festival at their factory (which is surrounded by a forest through which their test track runs) for owners of their rather pricey bikes. All of that adds up to an absolute guarantee that the wheel I'm showing, built about 2008/9 (the build and test sheet that came with the bike is dated and I can look it up if it becomes relevant) was built to be approved by Herr Rohloff himself.

(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/Kranich/andre_jute_rear_frame_end_bicycle_stand_tab_and_brace_on_utopia_kranich_800pxh.jpg)

You're looking at the non-drive side, the drive side flange also visible. It's a cross-2 spoke arrangement, with the heads of the leading spokes inside the flange, and the heads of the trailing spokes outside the flange. Those are Sapim Strong double butted spokes (ugly as sin but apparently immune to riding through potholes and off kerbs), with Sapim's Polyax nipples in a heavy-duty angle-drilled Exal XL25 rim, all of it originally designed by the manufacturers for Utopia. That's the state-of-the-art-Rohloff wheel, c2008, and thus by definition, considering who built it, also the state-of-the-Rohloff-manual wheel, c2008.

For further context and a description of the other elements of this well-packaged Rohloff rear end you can go to  http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
and scroll down until you see a (different) photograph of the rear end.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 28, 2020, 01:28:20 am
Andre's photo reminds me of another way in which SJS have always deviated from the Rohloff script, my Raven wheelbuild had the spokes cross over the nuts on the none drive side, the opposite to what was (Maybe still is) recommended in the manual.  This wasn't some random decision, I remember reading the rationale for it and although I've forgotten what that was, I remember it sounded like a good idea. 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 28, 2020, 03:44:09 am
Andre's photo reminds me of another way in which SJS have always deviated from the Rohloff script, my Raven wheelbuild had the spokes cross over the nuts on the none drive side, the opposite to what was (Maybe still is) recommended in the manual.  This wasn't some random decision, I remember reading the rationale for it and although I've forgotten what that was, I remember it sounded like a good idea.

Ah, Thorn get a pass on that as Rohloffs rule is not to cross above the end cap screws on wheels with a diameter of 24" and smaller, over 24" it is permissible.  :) 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 28, 2020, 04:16:23 am
I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.

PH,
There is a version of the rings that can only be fitted by Rohloff service agents like SJSC that is fitted using heat to increase their size so that when they cool they are a tight fit. New hubs now come with these already fitted at the factory as standard , so I'd think that you could have those fitted if you wished. Should be a quick job seeing as there would be no spokes to remove to fit them.

The rings and your hub lacing were mentioned in this thread: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11802.msg99860#msg99860
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 28, 2020, 04:43:52 am
Looking at the current brochures, it seems to be the way they're now doing it, the Mercury in 650B & 700C both have their Rohloffs built this way.  i haven't looked at the others.

Interesting, I hadn't noticed that, but now that I look I see that the Nomad Mk3 700C and 650B are also both also the same. I wonder if they plan on doing the Nomad Mk3 26" the same way. There are no photos because of the 26" forks being discarded and they're still waiting for the replacement batch. Is this the new standard for Thorn and are Rohloff on board with it?     
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: martinf on January 28, 2020, 07:08:00 am
Andre's wheel is built in the same pattern as my 2011 Rohloff wheel. But with Sapim Strong spokes that are thicker at the hub end, and which fill the spoke holes slightly better than the plain-guage spokes in my 2 wheels.

George recommends Polyax spoke nipples, which I forgot to mention. They do help reduce misalignment at the rim.

The main issue with building a Rohloff wheel seems to be possible flange failure. The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Robin Thorn on January 28, 2020, 08:49:30 am
Hello everyone.
I'm afraid I'm only available for a few moments today so this will be my only post on this subject today.
Please be assured that whatever it is we do when we build Rohloff wheels will have been discussed with Stewart Stabik at Rohloff in advance and agreed. That's not to say that we may not have changed our policy on more than one occasion over the years!
Yes, in the past we did have some Rohloff flange failures (as did everyone else who sold any quantity) but we worked with Rohloff and now we've seen none on new wheels built in recent years.
 THE person to read your posts here and reply with our definitive answer is I'm afraid Andy Blance but he's currently touring in the far east on his Rohloff equipped Thorn bike, not back till 10th February. Even if he then needs to remain in quarantine at home for a couple of weeks I expect he'll be able to reply (without reference to his 100's of emails he will have at work).
So... I'm not giving any advice to anyone today as to how to build a Rohloff wheel (from new), all I will say is that at SJSC/Thorn we stand by what we do and offer (I think someone already pointed that out). WRT rebuilding an existing Rohloff hub the advice is simple: Use Rohloff spokes, copy the original pattern, use a really well recognised wheelbuilder.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 28, 2020, 09:38:10 am
Andre's photo reminds me of another way in which SJS have always deviated from the Rohloff script, my Raven wheelbuild had the spokes cross over the nuts on the none drive side, the opposite to what was (Maybe still is) recommended in the manual.  This wasn't some random decision, I remember reading the rationale for it and although I've forgotten what that was, I remember it sounded like a good idea.

Ah, Thorn get a pass on that as Rohloffs rule is not to cross above the end cap screws on wheels with a diameter of 24" and smaller, over 24" it is permissible.  :)
I think that one might have changed over the years, I'm pretty sure back in 2004 it applied to all wheel sizes.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 28, 2020, 09:46:25 am
I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.

PH,
There is a version of the rings that can only be fitted by Rohloff service agents like SJSC that is fitted using heat to increase their size so that when they cool they are a tight fit. New hubs now come with these already fitted at the factory as standard , so I'd think that you could have those fitted if you wished. Should be a quick job seeing as there would be no spokes to remove to fit them.

The rings and your hub lacing were mentioned in this thread: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11802.msg99860#msg99860
Thanks, I remember that thread, it's a shame Dave's diagram has disappeared, it showed how the spokes on a 1X Rohloff build entered the rim at a similar angle to a 3X with a std derailleur hub.
I have no interest in having the reinforcing rings fitted, unless I'm advised by SJS to do so.  My understanding is that their purpose is to keep it together if there's a breakage rather than lessen the chances of one.  I can see why someone embarking on a long exotic tour might consider that an advantage, but I'm not so I don't.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 28, 2020, 12:15:57 pm
Well I'm pleased to see Robin ( if I may use first names ) come in on the discussion .

 I must firstly say I've been a fan of SJSC's and Thorn bikes for  over 2 decades,  living within  an hours drive of their premises and have visited many times over the years

I have had 2 Speedhubs from them now ( one indirectly ,as explained  in my original post that started this thread).

It seems astonishing that after all these years, bikes and wheels   being built and sold ,that , if you purchase a hub and wish to build it yourself or have a  local wheel builder do the job , with the current state of affairs,   you are unable   be 100% certain it has been done correctly .

The reasons for this are
1/ misprints in the official handbook which comes with the hub and is available to download, some  of which have been updated ..others have had  the same mistakes  since before 2005. ( all relating to trailing and leading spokes which make you question whether the photo images are correct or the wording. Also the "Pointer" tips re which spoke crosses over or under...is the wording here the wrong way round too?

2/ Examples from the past ..for example Andre Jute's wheel ..built by friends of Herr Rohloff has the spoke heads the opposite way round to those in the manual . Also Thorn themselves have built in this way...Robin did mention how things have often changed after OK'ing with Rohloff HQ.

3/ Andy Blance ..in his comprehensive article available on this site entitled " Living with a Rohloff hub " (2019 version ),himself appears to say that the  Trailing spokes should be oriented with the heads on the outside of the flange which is at odds to the photos in the current handbook . To be fair ..this is based on an assumption that his use of the term " pulling "spokes refers to the Trailing spokes. Why not all use the same terminology to avoid confusion! He also states it must be done exactly as Rohloff say ..,...well it appears Rohloff say the opposite although that depends whether you  take notice of the  wording or the images !

So ...clear as mud at the moment .

Some may consider this all to be a storm in a teacup and that it doesn't really matter but for some of us  it may take years to save  for a premium item like the speedhub and we want to be certain that it's built to maximise longevity.

Tbh if Andy Blance hadn't gone to great lengths to write in depth about how Rohloff were fed up with wheels being built incorrectly and that they were targeting these individuals ( ie by presumably being picky re warranty issues and limiting their responsibility of possible flange breakages) I doubt this morass of uncertainty ( thanks AJ) would have been noticed or even a cause for concern .

All of the information must be clarified as soon as possible . It's not good enough  that I have an expensive  hub sitting at my wheelbuilder's premises  that can't be built up for fear of doing it wrong. Yes I could ask SJSC to sort it ,and then rest assured re warranty ,but that's rather like being held captive and it would incur more time and expense on my behalf.  The fact that Robin Thorn himself won't put his neck on the line re the definitive answer speaks volumes . Perhaps Andy Blance will, or Rohloff themselves could clear  up  all the issues in a written statement.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 28, 2020, 05:35:12 pm
Just got an email back from Marko at Rohloff HQ

He confirmed there was an error in translation and said it had been corrected on p55 ( p61 on the pdf ) ...

I already knew this and had gone to great lengths to explain about my concern was with  the errors in the appendix on p125/126 ( again different on PDF version ..shown as p131/132 )

He simply said they "remain unchanged " so whether that means they'll leave them with the errors or are intending to clarify I cannot say so I've emailed yet again to ask about this.

I've also asked if  any wheelbuilding mistakes  are made as a result of the errors ( and no correct literature is available )  Rohloff will take responsibility if it causes problems . I've done this to, hopefully ,get them moving to produce a definitive , error free version but won't keep my hopes too high.

I guess this issue may well benefit SJSC's as if it isn't cleared up most future purchasers will be forced to get them to build up the wheels in order to  maintain peace of mind re the warranty...  On the other hand it has highlighted the purported importance of a correct wheelbuild to avoid issues such as flange breakage which could make some people more wary of buying the hub in the first place.

The saga continues...

Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 28, 2020, 06:41:39 pm
With Robin's input, I'm inclined now to have SJS Cycles build my next Rohloff wheel, but I wonder if they have available the Velocity Dyads, which are my first choice for a light, but still strong wheel?

I hope Andy Blanche chimes in on this thread upon his return.  It's a tremendous advantage in buying Thorn as a brand to have such access to experience - as well as this fine forum.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 28, 2020, 06:57:45 pm
... The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.

Could be lots of reasons, perhaps the aluminum they get to cut the shell from is only available in a certain size?  Or perhaps the equipment used to  cut the shell can't do it?  Could be many reasons, I am not going to speculate but I agree that would have been a better solution.


...
It seems astonishing that after all these years, bikes and wheels   being built and sold ,that , if you purchase a hub and wish to build it yourself or have a  local wheel builder do the job , with the current state of affairs,   you are unable   be 100% certain it has been done correctly .
...

You described me, I bought my rims from one source, hub from another, spokes from yet another and nipples from another.  And my hub came with instructions in a language that I could not read.

But the instructions were available in english on the internet, so I downloaded those.  I probably only spent 10 minutes on the manual and concluded that all I really needed to do was to make sure I lace it up so that it would match the photos.  That is what I did and I did not think anything of it.  Has been trouble free since.

I have read lots of manuals over the years where someone used an electronic translation program to change the language to english and it read really confusing, in that regard I found the Rohloff documents to be quite simple. 


With Robin's input, I'm inclined now to have SJS Cycles build my next Rohloff wheel, but I wonder if they have available the Velocity Dyads, which are my first choice for a light, but still strong wheel?
...

I have Dyads on my Lynskey and a Dyad on the front of my rando bike.  Nice rim.  But, not sure if the spoke angle at the rim would have enough angle for a Rohloff, to the best of my knowledge they can't be ordered with a Rohloff drilling.  I have them on derailleur bikes.  I used Polyax nipples.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 28, 2020, 07:41:18 pm
Quote
I used Polyax nipples.


 Yes I saw your recommendation for these and the reasons for that choice ,  but would  their use be within Herr Rohloff's rigid specifications  ::)

I might suggest that if all the errors are down to translation confusion then downloading the German manual and translating it using google on the offending pages  might produce a more reliable document to work from!

I actually just looked at the German version and I suspect it is actually error free ..would need confirming but I guess with the native language version that's   more likely to be the case as mistakes would be more easily spotted.

 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 28, 2020, 10:35:16 pm
In regards to the dyads, they make them in 26", 650B, and 700cc.  I was thinking of either the 650B or if my daydream of a Rohloff Audax or my fantasy of a Mercury happen to materialize, I'm thinking (wishfully?) that the larger diameter will obviate the problem of the steep angles requiring the special Rohloff drilling.

But even on the 26" wheel I'd chance it perhaps, as they would then go on my Raven RST for lightweight to medium weight riding on decent roads.

That's the thinking, in any case, but no means a certain thing, but rather an investigation to all the possibilities.  It's going to be a four, perhaps five months before I can afford another bling, bling wheel.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Andre Jute on January 29, 2020, 03:17:53 am
In regards to the dyads, they make them in 26", 650B, and 700cc.  I was thinking of either the 650B or if my daydream of a Rohloff Audax or my fantasy of a Mercury happen to materialize, I'm thinking (wishfully?) that the larger diameter will obviate the problem of the steep angles requiring the special Rohloff drilling.

That's a 622mm rim I'm showing. It's a sturdy, hefty thing with angle drilling for a Rohloff hub. When I was shopping for a high-quality bike like the Thorn but without the welded frame, I discovered that all the best German baukasten (a baukast is a custom bike builder, but in American terms more like semi-custom, as they fit only a very short alternatives and options list that the boss personally approves of, the whole ten yards of the German nanny-state -- compare to Thorn, who will bend over backwards to give you what want unless you're stupid) supplied Rohloffs only in hefty, angle-drilled rims, including for 28in wheels. I've been riding over ten years on a set of computer-built wheels which are still the same spec as came from the factory, tight as a drum, no cracks, no bother -- and of necessity I ride straight through potholes at speed on almost every ride because there's nowhere else to go without risking a spill, so those wheels haven't been mollycoddled.

"Wishful?" Maybe. It's a pity I didn't save that drawing from Dave, referred to upthread, but perhaps you can find it with Waybackmachine. Or you can always draw out the entry angles of the spokes in various sizes of rims on your computer. Were me, if I were to build a Rohloff-hubbed wheel, I would choose only a rim available in the correct angle drilling -- and I'd still use the Polyax nipples to normalise any slightly off angle and bed the spokes in right; it isn't worth trying to save the extra few cents the best nipples cost. I'd also avert my eyes and use the butt-ugly (heh-heh) Sapim Strong double-butted spokes in their special Rohloff variant -- IIRC these have specially angled heads and in-flange lengths between the head and the bend. I imagine the spokes Rohloff supplies are these particular items, further investigated for manufacturing burrs which create pressure points for cracks to start, but haven't checked.

BTW, I don't think the manual is machine-translated. That's a high-quality semi-professional or professional job by someone who speaks both languages fluently but is not necessity an engineer. I'd not let that translator at my literary works for a translation from English to German but my technical books for a first rough and second refining pass which I could then polish -- she (most likely a lady from the internal evidence of the style) would get the job in a flash.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 29, 2020, 06:51:33 pm
well despite another call and email Rohloff seem to have difficulty comprehending the alleged errors so I printed out the offending pages , highlighted the errors and mailed them back a photo. I'm attaching the pages below and if anyone disagrees with the points please say why . With regards to the spoke crossing info, under "pointers", I'm unsure whether this is correct or not as I don't know the correct way so have put a question mark. After looking at the German manual it seems wrong but that's based on my understanding that Zugspeiche is trailing and Kreuzspeiche is leading. Feel free to correct.
Finally I've also attached p55 which they had actually  noticed and got correct !
Apologies if it's all getting a bit boring .
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Robin Thorn on January 30, 2020, 10:14:00 am
Well, i got a reply from Andy, here's what he said:
Hi Robin
Everything we do regarding building wheels has been approved by Rohloff.
Rohloff say that the spokes shouldn’t cross over at a screw - but they admitted that they only said this in case some 16” or 20” rims were going to be used and we were told that with larger dia rims (26”) it would be, as we first thought, better to cross them there.
All the other stuff - flange height, flange support rings, spoke burrs, tension et al has been added, by “decree” since and we have followed these decrees to the letter.

I've spoken to Nick, our wheelbuilder (he has built nearly 23,000 wheels)
Our CURRENT policy is to build all Rohloff wheels with Rohloff spokes.
I'll attempt to attach 4 photos of wheels awaiting being built into bikes (later)
I'm not going to go further into our policy and reasons except to say again that WHATEVER it is we do or have done we stand by.
WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Robin Thorn on January 30, 2020, 10:24:29 am
Four photos of wheels from Thorn cycles
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on January 30, 2020, 10:24:51 am
... The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.

Could be lots of reasons, perhaps the aluminum they get to cut the shell from is only available in a certain size?  Or perhaps the equipment used to  cut the shell can't do it?  Could be many reasons, I am not going to speculate but I agree that would have been a better solution.
In fairness we do ask a lot of a Rohloff hub compared to a derailleur one, though considering the investment, that's hardly surprising.  Flange failures on standard hubs are hardly unknown, google images  brings plenty of results.  I'm not sure there is a design improvement without a complete reinvention.  Neither am I sure how common it is, I know of seven other Rohloff bikes and I'm the only one to have a flange break, not a big enough sample to conclude anything, but enough to dispel any idea that it's happening all the time. 
My original Rohloff has done over twice the mileage of my derailleur bike, I'm not even certain how many hubs that's had, at least three,  changed because I've bought a complete wheel, or because a new hub is the same price as a few parts,  I haven't broken one, though unlike the Rohloff I haven't done the same mileage on any of them.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 30, 2020, 12:37:15 pm
OK Robin ..thanks for those efforts.

It hasn't cleared anything up for the person who buys just  a hub from yourselves and wants to build it up " correctly " but I understand your caution. 

.The photos show  that you seem to have it OK'd to  build in different ways to the handbook instructions ,for example ...In the current German manual (which I'm presuming is relatively error free) it says the leading spoke crosses above the trailing spoke. Your builder has done it the other way round ...as well as the obvious flange showing all spoke heads facing outwards on another lacing.
I guess that doesn't matter because  SJSC take responsibility for these deviations from the  official document.

Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by  his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) . We'll have to wait for his return to clarify  .....I still  suspect it's a mistake .

Finally  it does seem wrong that  ,  as you say ,
Quote
WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement./quote]. 

Surely any customer should have access to clear definitive instructions somewhere!


Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 30, 2020, 01:34:44 pm
Quite frankly, I have never seen a flange failure on any kind of hub.  But, I worked in a bike shop in the early 1970s, things were built differently then, even racing bikes often had 36 spokes.  Since I am not often communicating in person with a lot of other bikers, flange failures would have to be common for me to see them.  I say this on all kinds of hubs, not just Rohloff hubs.  And Rohloffs are quite rare in USA, a neighbor of mine works as a bike mechanic and he has told me that my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen.

Even spoke failures which are more common, I have not broken a spoke in over a decade (maybe two decades?) and I think the only spokes I have broken were on a Campy hub that had a date code of 1961.  I have never broken a spoke on a wheel that I built.

We all buy insurance for unforeseen events.  I carry spare spokes on bike tours and I added the flange rings to my Rohloff, I see these things as an insurance policy. 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 30, 2020, 05:46:29 pm
OK Robin ..thanks for those efforts.

It hasn't cleared anything up for the person who buys just  a hub from yourselves and wants to build it up " correctly " but I understand your caution. 

.The photos show  that you seem to have it OK'd to  build in different ways to the handbook instructions ,for example ...In the current German manual (which I'm presuming is relatively error free) it says the leading spoke crosses above the trailing spoke. Your builder has done it the other way round ...as well as the obvious flange showing all spoke heads facing outwards on another lacing.
I guess that doesn't matter because  SJSC take responsibility for these deviations from the  official document.

Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by  his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) . We'll have to wait for his return to clarify  .....I still  suspect it's a mistake .

Finally  it does seem wrong that  ,  as you say ,
Quote
WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement./quote]. 

Surely any customer should have access to clear definitive instructions somewhere!

I would say that looking at the photos, all four of them, leaves no doubt as to leading spokes.  They go inside of the flange, in a cross 2 pattern and one should use only Rohloff spokes.

From my experience with a 20" Rohloff Moulton, I should have thought back and made the assumption that for very small wheels things are more critical, and may require greater precision and care.  That wheel had the spokes bent out of necessity by the builder, at a pretty extreme angle.  I knew nothing about it them, as that was my first Rohloff bicycle, but would not use such a setup again.  I had no problems with it, but only rode that bike on roads with a light load.

I wonder if I bought a bike from Trek, or Surly, if the owner would drop by into a forum thread, and clear things up or offer advice.

Never mind MasterCard, it's Robin, Andy and Danneaux; priceless.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 30, 2020, 06:37:44 pm
"I wonder if I bought a bike from Trek, or Surly, if the owner would drop by into a forum thread, and clear things up or offer advice".

Nothing has been cleared up ..only advice that you work it out yourself.

It's not clear , although I'm now 90% sure of the way they want it done :
Leading spoke head out, trailing head in , leading spoke crosses above trailing, use R spokes or Sapim race , tension correctly and lace according to spoke offset of rim obviously.

That's my interpretation ...still waiting on Germany to reply since latest attempt to clarify .

Robin's input is much appreciated but the lack of definitive answers ...(not from Thorn, but Rohloff ,remains frustrating.

I don't think that's unreasonable but maybe I'm expecting too much.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 31, 2020, 03:12:50 am
Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by  his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) .

Actually, if you look at the first photo that Robin has added the trailing/pulling spokes are head in, in the second photo the trailing/pulling spokes are head out, and in the third and fourth photos all spokes are head out. It would seem that the only spoke lacing not currently used by Thorn is all spoke heads in, lol.   
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 31, 2020, 04:06:06 am
in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out.  Rotate the photos in your heads and it's easy to see.  Now chant, Leading spokes head out, leading spokes head out as much as necessary. The leading spokes are the ones that pull as power is applied.

At this point it's perhaps time to point out that sometimes it's best to admit to one's self that not all were meant to lace up wheels. I can see that pattern clearly, but for other reasons I've come to the humbling conclusion that I'm in that crowd that better make use of SJS's services.  I realize how expensive all the tools are and how infrequently one builds wheels, thus if it's for necessities sake, rather than a hobby onto itself, it's just best to rely on the pros.

It's been a good topic however, it has likely saved me grief and lack of a warranty.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Andre Jute on January 31, 2020, 05:18:58 am
...I'm in that crowd that better make use of SJS's services.


Welcome to the majority. Building a bicycle wheel is an art form best practised by those who practice at it daily. And who, almost without exception, started their prentice wheel building efforts on a cheaper hub than a Rohloff.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: martinf on January 31, 2020, 07:08:56 am
Four photos of wheels from Thorn cycles

1st pair of photos have the same spoke pattern as my Raven Sport Tour wheel built by SJS. Difference is that the hub in the photo is for a disc brake, my wheel is for rim brakes.

2nd pair of photos is the pattern SJS recommended for building a Nexus 8 Premium hub (similar but slightly smaller than a Rohloff hub) onto a 16" rim (Brompton). I intend to follow that advice.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Danneaux on January 31, 2020, 07:37:33 am
I'm amazed at the reasonable price of Thorn's wheelbuilding services provided you buy the rim and hub from them and purchase base tape separately. Base price for silver-colored components is listed at £47.99 Inc VAT for a Rohloff wheel including Rohloff-approved spokes, appropriate nipples and labor:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/wheelswheel-build/wheel-build-labour-for-rohloff-hub-only-rohloff-double-butted-201820-silver-spokes-32-holes-per-wheel/?geoc=US

All this from Thorn's wheelbuilder Nick, a man who Robin tells us has built nearly 23,000 wheels. See: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13694.msg101841#msg101841

I've built only a couple hundred. Twenty-three thousand is not nothing! Even if one assumes that is wheels of all types, the number of Rohloff wheels produced is substantial, especially for a single builder.

If costed out of the package price, the labor is astonishingly inexpensive:
● Wheelbuilding services totaling£47.99 Inc VAT
...minus the cost of spokes and nipples (base silver colored) included with the service...
● A set of 35 (3 spare in the instance of a 32-spoke hub) Rohloff-specific spokes with nipples in silver is listed at the SJS Cycles website at £19.99 Inc VAT (if purchased separately) here:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/spokes/146-rohloff-double-butted-201820-spokes-with-nipples-silver-set-of-35/?geoc=US
...Leaving a labor cost of only £28 for expert lacing, truing and tensioning in a wheel Thorn will stand behind.

There's a black-colored option at slightly higher cost and you can purchase alternative nipples which you can then specify to include in the build or not.

Provided you buy the hub from them and they stock a rim you're happy with, this is a remarkably small price to pay for a wheel that is likely to remain problem-free for a very long time.
[Correction/Edit: Custom wheelbuilds are possible with special arrangement. See Robin's followup post at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13694.msg101860#msg101860 ]

As for Thorn's 10-year warranty against hub flange breakage, reading closely there are clearly stated conditions (See: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf , pg. 34):
● It applies to Thorn's Rohloff-equipped bikes (complete)...
● with 32 spoke hubs...
● for the original owner...
● and is dependent upon using only Rohloff-approved replacement spokes should any replacements be necessary while traveling (spares included with each newly purchased bike for this purpose).
While this highlights another benefit of buying a complete new Thorn bicycle, this also points up the value of their wheelbuilds on a used Thorn or done separately as part of their wheelbuilding service. The same materials, care and procedures that allow them to offer the 10-year warranty against hub flange breakage as part of a new bike are baked into the used bike or separately commissioned wheel. That's surely confidence-inspiring. The hub is an expensive item, so one could do worse than following Thorn's advice on component selection, lacing, tensioning, and of course maintaining the hub with scheduled oil changes to prolong its life in ways proven over time.

Apart from any warranty, Thorn have a well-earned reputation for being customer-centric and doing what they can within limits to make things right if there is a problem with things purchased from them and they freely provide high quality advice based on their own experience over time and across many units sold and serviced.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Robin Thorn on January 31, 2020, 09:22:55 am
Just maybe, this is my last post on this subject. 2 things:
1) I'm not trying to NOT give advice to would be wheelbuilders, it's simply this:
I taught myself to build wheels 50 years ago, I started with truing, went on to dismantling and resembling, then on to new stuff, when I started SJSC I built 100's of wheels, when I expanded I first employed Andy Blance, who I taught to build wheels along with his own efforts as a DIY cyclist, together we honed our skills. I then employed John Bowell (his name still exists in the famous Norwich bike shop but he has long retired) who I had helped learn to build wheels himself years before when I was still a teenager) then , some 27 years ago I employed Nick who (if memory serves me correct) was taught by Andy, myself and John. Over these intervening years it's been Nick that has taken the baton and gone forward to build with such excellence, it's true we've had hours and hours conversations, we've had to battle with edicts from rim, spoke and hub manufacturers to determine the "truth" from the bunkum and covering of backs. What we do now is the culmination of 50 years of experience, we take on board all the things we are currently told by manufacturers but some of them we still think we know best. The reason I'm not giving advice as to what to do and why you should do it is simply a) I don't remember everything we decided and why over the decades b) as others have said before, learning to build a wheel using components that cost over £1000 is just not a great idea.
2) To avail yourself of our wheelbuilding service you don't HAVE to buy a rim and/or a hub, you can send us what you have and we will build it up, you can't though order this online, you'll need to talk with sales@sjscycles.com +44-1278-441500 to make arrangements.
If anyone wan't to discuss any of these issues off forum I can be contacted on robin@sjscycles.com or +44127841522
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on January 31, 2020, 10:02:54 am
in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out. 

Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: geocycle on January 31, 2020, 10:19:44 am
Wow, Nick has built 23,000 wheels!  That's incredible.  All I know that on my two Thorn bikes and several rebuilds by SJS since 2006 I have never had a problem.  Not only that, I have never had a rim go out of true or even touched a spoke key.  Thanks Nick!
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 31, 2020, 11:58:35 am
Hopefully, after all this discussion we will get all the apparent errors and ambiguities clarified by the Germans themselves so everybody can rest assured that whoever builds up a Speedhub , wherever , has clear definitive  instructions to follow...even if they don't have the necessary skills. It has all been about covering yourself for the warranty requirements to be met.
Thanks to Robin for the input , particularly the last post he makes above.  Yes  SJSC's offer an excellent service with wheelbuilding not only guaranteed but at a very fair price. I had resisted getting the build done in Bridgewater as
1/ I had bought the rim unavailable at SJSC's and knew of a respected local wheelbuilder
2/ I'd presumed the handbook had all the necessary information

3/ I have  already made 2 visits to discuss with him totalling 2 hrs driving but we still needed clarification ..hence the thread.
3/ By this stage the prospect of another drive to collect, packaging up the items, postage and insurance costs, time etc did not appeal.

However ...I need the hub building up and soon SO ... if Robin can OK it I'm going to bite the bullet and ask my brother to drive up and drop it off in person.
I've spent hours on this ...trying to get clarification ...since my last mail to Rohloff they've gone quiet as I suspect the penny has finally dropped and they decide what to do if anything. I will update if and when they get back to me.
As for 23,000 wheels ...Pah! I've trued a couple myself !
 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: leftpoole on January 31, 2020, 01:46:17 pm
Hello!
I can build what I consider beautiful well functioning bikes.
BUT I cannot and will not build wheels. In my honest opinion this part of a bike is best left to professionals or at the very very least an expert.
I have read and reread most these messages and frankly I think it’s now pretty tedious!
Can ‘we’ not make a return to Thorn talk that anyone can enjoy?
Happy days everyone.
Best regards,
John
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 31, 2020, 05:30:09 pm
in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out. 

Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in.

Remind me to never buy any wheels that you've built up. ;)

 The non drive side in the fist photo, is with the brass coupling, side down.  Therefore the top of the wheel is on the right, and as you pedal, the force, were you to draw an arrow on the right hand side is from bottom to top.  The leading spoke is the one under tension, or in other words on the right hand Side of the photo the leading spokes are the ones that extend upwards from while on the left hand side, the force of pedaling against the ground makes the leading spokes the ones which extent downwards from the hub.  I'd have to have a lot of beer before my vision got so blurred in order not to see the leading spokes are button in.  Take another look.

No wonder this gets all mangled up in forums. Some folks can rotate objects in space in their mind. Some can't.  Me? I've learned much in this thread, and it's cleared up my initial confusion on an important topic, that the OP rightfully brought up.  The literature is confusing, that's for sure, but Robin's photos, strike me as perfectly clear.  I also have a new found respect for the art of wheel building, and my bravado has been pegged down several notches.  If I wan't rims only available here, I'll ship them across the pond.

On a related note, I've done my rounds here in Raleigh talking to and shopping around for a local wheel builder.  We have some really good mechanics in this area, and two have built up a very small number of Rohloff hubs.  In taking to them however, I was struck by how they were winging it.  Nope of them knew of any Rohloff specific approaches, nor about the advice to use only Rohloff spokes.  That was news to them.  So I gather they were going to build it up just like any other wheel, but I would have a year long warranty - perhaps.  Hmmm.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on January 31, 2020, 06:04:19 pm
Robin,

As a former bike mechanic, I would suggest you reserve the right to refuse to build a wheel with some components, especially if they are customer provided.  And reserve the option to refuse to issue a warranty on components you feel are not trustworthy.  Sometimes the customer has a crazy idea that is not going to work well.

But your offer to perform labor services with customer provided components is rare and something that I wish I saw more often, especially when it comes to servicing my 2003 Land Rover D2 at the local garage.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 31, 2020, 06:29:00 pm
Sorry Pavel ..you have made a mistake

 ( Macspud made a small error involving one word "wrong" ) but the 2nd photo clearly shows the leading spokes to have heads on the inside of the flange.

Just to clarify :  the leading spoke is the spoke which exits the hub in the direction of wheel travel .

I also noticed you seem to imply earlier that the leading spokes pull the most ..this is not my understanding . As always ..could be wrong .

Perhaps all the confusion isn't aided by people using different/incorrect terminology.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 31, 2020, 08:43:29 pm
Sorry Pavel ..you have made a mistake

 ( Macspud made a small error involving one word "wrong" ) but the 2nd photo clearly shows the leading spokes to have heads on the inside of the flange.

Just to clarify :  the leading spoke is the spoke which exits the hub in the direction of wheel travel .

I also noticed you seem to imply earlier that the leading spokes pull the most ..this is not my understanding . As always ..could be wrong .

Perhaps all the confusion isn't aided by people using different/incorrect terminology.

A leading spoke, as you've defined it would have more tension on it, while a training spoke would have less. Leading spokes are what get pulled in order to move the wheel. 

as the view is reversed, the leading spoke, which is the spoke which gets tensioned, or pulled along for the direction of travel, have their heads out, as per Rohloff's dictates.  in photo number two, the chain would pull the wheel in a clockwise direction.  Looking at the left side of the photo, that would mean that the leading spoke, which is the driving spoke, would pull the wheel from bottom to top.

it in other words leading spokes trail  the direction of moment, because spokes don't push - they pull.  The trailing spoke at that instance has less load on it, and it keeps the wheel round and centered.

Perhaps that is where the discrepancy of understanding lies?  Which goes back to your initial assertion that all is ill defined, and we understand the terminology different one from the other.  But even if we label the leading/trailing definition in the opposite way, the photos show a consistency, with no contradiction.  Looking at the left and the right, they are mirror images.  :)
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Pavel on January 31, 2020, 09:03:16 pm
In Jobst Brandt's book "the bicycle wheel, 3rd edition" on page 24 through 27 he illustrates how torque acts in the opposite direction of travel of the driving force, which of course makes sense when you consider how torque (which is a resultant force) tightens the threads on a sprocket which goes on with regularly cut threads, tightened in a clockwise direction.

He does not use the terms leading and trailing but rather pulling and pushing.  It's kind of long enough to be a pain to type out, so I will extract just what I think is relevant.

" the pulling spokes stretch and become longer, and the pushing spokes compress and become shorter.  The rim bulges inward at the pulling spoke and outward at the pushing spokes while the average tension, and therefore average compression, does not change"

I'm not sure if that gives us any progress towards our understanding of things, or makes it cloudier, but I thought I'd put that out here.

My brain hurts now.  :D
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: martinf on January 31, 2020, 10:06:17 pm
The reason I'm not giving advice as to what to do and why you should do it is simply a) I don't remember everything we decided and why over the decades b) as others have said before, learning to build a wheel using components that cost over £1000 is just not a great idea.

I've probably built or rebuilt about 100 wheels since I started doing it. Even the mediocre wheels I built when I started were better than some of the factory wheels that have been through my hands.

I was aware that there were some special recommendations for the Rohloff hub (specific length of the bend at the spoke head, angle drilled rims). Taking account of the price of the Rohloff, and rather than research all the requirements and maybe risk missing something important, I decided it would be better to get SJS/Thorn to do the job. I wasn't disappointed by the quality of the SJS/Thorn wheelbuilding.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on January 31, 2020, 10:21:51 pm
And the saga continues ..yes my brain hurts too but my understanding is from the famous Sheldon Brown's wheelbuilding  article , and he knew jobst Brandt well .

I have to admit there does seem some inconsistency regarding use of the terms (as you will read) but I still think most people see it how Sheldon does or did.

Here's a quote from his article where he attempts to simplify things ( unlike Brandt )

"Definitions:

This article uses 3 non-standard terms, because standard terms have not been agreed upon in the industry:

"Key" spoke. This is the first spoke to be installed in building the wheel. Its position determines the position of all the other spokes with respect to the valve hole.

"Trailing" spokes. In a rear wheel, the trailing spokes are those which become tighter when the rider applies pressure to the pedals. They are called "trailing" because they point backward from the direction the hub is turned in. In the illustrations for this article, the trailing spokes are shown in red and yellow.

"Leading" spokes. These are the spokes that exit the hub in the direction of rotation. They are illustrated in two shades of blue.

The "trailing" spokes pull harder under drive torque to make the rim turn, and the "leading" spokes contribute by pulling less hard under driving torque. Each group of spokes contributes equally in its own way to turning the rim to keep up with the hub.

Trailing Spokes

Trailing Spokes
Some writers have referred to the trailing spokes as "driving" or "pulling" spokes, and have referred to the leading spokes as "tension" or "static" spokes. These terms may be confusing, because all of the spokes contribute to driving, they are all under tension and they all pull. Depending on how you look at it, either all of them or none of them are "static". (Thanks to John Forester for suggesting "leading" and "trailing".)"

Roger Musson in his professional guide to wheelbuilding manual  seems to agree , I've attached p26 ..have a read.

Have a google for images using these terms ..I haven't looked far but didn't see any confirming your viewpoint , but several
 
confirming the opposite , apparently more common interpretation.

I'm not interested in "winning"  any arguments ..I just like things to be clear ..or at least to use the most commonly terms when discussing technical subjects ..otherwise we don't stand a chance.




 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: mickeg on February 01, 2020, 12:39:59 am
...
He does not use the terms leading and trailing but rather pulling and pushing.  It's kind of long enough to be a pain to type out, so I will extract just what I think is relevant.

" the pulling spokes stretch and become longer, and the pushing spokes compress and become shorter.  The rim bulges inward at the pulling spoke and outward at the pushing spokes while the ...

I am not following this thread closely so perhaps I took something out of context here, but the word pushing jumped out at me.

There are no pushing spokes, if spokes were so elastic that a spoke could "push", it would effectively have negative tension, the spoke nipple would push against the rim tape and against an inflated tube, both of which are not substantial enough to counter much of a push and the spoke would bend to the side, like pushing on a spaghetti noodle.

Spokes are supposed to be tight enough (in tension) that even under hard pedaling (or with a disc brake, hard braking) with a heavy load on the wheel, all spokes will be under tension, the tension level would vary from one spoke to the next.

I mentioned above that I get confused by the terms leading or trailing so I prefer pulling and something other than pulling, but I would not use pushing as a viable term here.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Andre Jute on February 01, 2020, 07:30:16 am
Uh-huh. I also knew Jobst Brandt, though not as well or as long as Sheldon did. Jobst was a great engineer, both at Porsche and in the bicycle industry, and engineering friends at other leading houses he worked at admired him too.

But there is no hiding that Jobst was as ornery as any Prussian can possibly be, and he was a mean-minded infighter when he had made a mistake, so that getting him to make a correction was a major adventure, only for those with strong stomachs. People tended not to confront him with his errors for fear of his dismissive manner. (I know that for a fact from the private encouragements I received -- from people who'd backed off even when they were right -- when I did confront him about a mathematical error in his book on the wheel. Note the qualification: I know mathematics but I don't claim to know better than Jobst how a wheel works.)

Worse still, Jobst, an American born and bred, thought in German, and German, as we have already seen in the kerfuffle about the Rohloff manual (which I, who have spent most of my life in literature, consider perfectly well-translated), is a language which doesn't fit well into the exuberance of it's wayward stepchild, English.

The upshot is that when Jobst says "pulling and pushing" I don't assume he made an engineering mistake -- he knows a spoke doesn't push -- but a mental translation too close to the German in his mind, and I turn automatically to Sheldon's terminology for a clearer understanding, which, in Sheldon's hands, is usually self-evident, blindingly obvious, even inevitable.

Leading spokes leave the hub in the direction of travel, trailing spokes leave the hub in the backwards direction.

The words leading and trailing tell you everything you need to know. The words are self-explanatory, self-evident.

***
Pavel, if you have to read Jobst's book to understand how a wheel works, you're lost before you start building it. That book is one of the great engineering minds of the last century showing off. (Check out Jobst's brakes for the Porsche Grand Prix car, still the basis for the brakes on almost every high-performance car.) I have no doubt that Jobst is right, and the other writers on the subject before Jobst were at best 75% right, but Jobst's book is also the best explanation I know of why you should let someone experienced build a wheel on an expensive hub or, if you insist on doing it yourself, at least start with cheap components.

On the other hand, using The Bicycle Wheel as a mental trampoline can be most illuminating and conducive to restful sleep!
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on February 01, 2020, 09:02:34 am
Whatever the outcome of the thread it's proving entertaining and educating , if only in the sense that so  much confusion exists !

 Give the example of Roger Musson's ( wheelpro )  much lauded book on the subject ...from which I attached a page above. He makes it clear re " Trailing and Leading " orientation  ( like Sheldon + Jute  ;) )
but also uses the terms " Pushing and Pulling "  !

I see the thread titled has been changed by Dan ... Can it be changed back if Rohloff acknowledge their mistake ? ( sorry.."alleged" mistakes in the handbook ? )

Anyone using the manual for instruction would then be alerted if googling for info.)


Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: hendrich on February 01, 2020, 03:05:25 pm
This thread seems appropriate, I would like to thank Mr. Blance for his thorough writings on Rohloff (among other things). We agonized over a tandem purchase from Thorn for a year. We wanted a tandem that would go another bazillion km (our previous) and take us to the middle of nowhere. Mr. Blance was more than helpful to us, as have been his writings concerning a strong bike. For size reasons, we decided on a US maker (well known), but I had my doubts with the wheels on our tandem with Rohloff.

In the 2 years since, we have broken down in the middle of nowhere twice because of broken spokes for exactly the reasons that Mr. Blance made clear in his writings. I wonder/suspect if Rohloff made changes in wheel building based on Thorn information. Finally, after much referral to Mr. Blance’s writings and in my personal conversations with Thorn tandem owners, we got the proper nipples on our third rear wheel (the rims are another concern). I do not wish to bring disrespect to our maker, our new bike is great, but dealing with a Rohloff requires paying close attention to many wheel details, which most experienced wheelbuilders in US are not fully aware of.

This thread and many other threads have been useful in providing Rohloff (and other) information. There is no other bike company (the late Mr. Brown excepted) which provides this kind of detailed information.

Well I don’t own a Thorn, but have ordered a bunch of components from SJS. Thanks again Mr. Blance.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on February 02, 2020, 09:09:47 am
Sorry Pavel ..you have made a mistake

 ( Macspud made a small error involving one word "wrong" ) but the 2nd photo clearly shows the leading spokes to have heads on the inside of the flange.

Just to clarify :  the leading spoke is the spoke which exits the hub in the direction of wheel travel .

I also noticed you seem to imply earlier that the leading spokes pull the most ..this is not my understanding . As always ..could be wrong .

Perhaps all the confusion isn't aided by people using different/incorrect terminology.

Maybe I would have been better not to use the word "wrong", but Pavel you are incorrect on a couple of points. Trailing spokes pull as power is applied through the pedals, not leading spokes. The trailing spokes in photos 1 & 2 are not mirror images of each other.  The trailing spokes in photo 1 are head in, the trailing spokes in photo 2 are head out.


Remind me to never buy any wheels that you've built up. ;)
 

OK, that is probably a good idea, though not because of any lack in my spatial reasoning. That is sound.  ;)



Another interesting point, the wheels in photos 1 & 2 both have the trailing spokes on the drive side with the heads on the outside of the flange, they also both have the trailing spokes on the non-drive side with the heads on the inside of the flange. I am guessing that this is done due to the hubs being the disc versions, though that is another point that the Rohloff manual covers by saying "Due to the high torsional strength of the hub casing, the use of a reversed lacing pattern on the brake disc side (DB versions) is not necessary.".

I am sure that Thorn builds very good strong wheels and I would get them to build a wheel for me. If I were to build the wheel myself or get a local wheel builder to build the wheel I would follow the instructions in the Rohloff manual and lace it up the same as it is in every photo in the manual. 
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on February 02, 2020, 10:23:36 pm
MacSpud ..just to clarify ...the reason I said you made a mistake is that by accident, when Pavel stated ( incorrectly )   that all 4 images showed the leading spokes with the heads out ,  you then said :

"Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in"

the problem was that that statement isn't  actually contradicting his statement !

 He got it wrong on image 2  .
 
So he was wrong  but not for the reason you stated !

Cheers
 
Bill

Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: macspud on February 03, 2020, 04:12:40 am
MacSpud ..just to clarify ...the reason I said you made a mistake is that by accident, when Pavel stated ( incorrectly )   that all 4 images showed the leading spokes with the heads out ,  you then said :

"Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in"

the problem was that that statement isn't  actually contradicting his statement !

 He got it wrong on image 2  .
 
So he was wrong  but not for the reason you stated !

Cheers
 
Bill

 :)

Actually, on closer inspection, we were both correct with those statements. Lol. My statement "The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in" is correct. Pavel's statement "all 4 images showed the leading spokes with the heads out" is also correct, though you have to look closely to notice it. Both photos 1 & 2 have the trailing spokes on the drive side with the heads on the outside of the flange, they also both have the trailing spokes on the non-drive side with the heads on the inside of the flange.

I should not have bluntly used the word "wrong" as a sentence. It was harsh.

Anyway, this is true:

Some folks can rotate objects in space in their mind. Some can't. 

I stand by my spatial reasoning.
 ;)



Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on February 03, 2020, 09:24:51 am
Yes it's true pic 2 shows leading spokes with heads both in and out lol,  I guess I presumed the original comment related to the side that was presented to the camera . 

I've  now contacted SJSC  re sorting  my custom wheelbuild as I need it doing and Rohloff are quiet  and not clarifying anything at the moment . Perhaps they're deciding between Sheldon and Brandt!

Sheldon Brown  remains a personal hero  of mine, I admired his eccentricity ,  his incredible knowledge ,his phenomenal and generous production of tech articles that the layman could understand  ( unlike the " Ornery Prussian " Brandt ....I gave up on his book .I. don't have the brainpower ) .

Oh well ...off to cycle the 10 miles to Exmouth to collect the hub and rim ....my third visit because of this palaver .

I do hope someone with authority will produce a definitive , clear, unambiguous set of instructions but wouldn't put my money on it . Perhaps there's some advantage to it being a grey area  and won't be resolved until other customers  give them earache.

Or maybe I'm wrong 🤔

Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Danneaux on February 13, 2020, 08:20:50 pm
Andy has made a 13 February 2020 update to his "Living With A Rohloff" publication to reflect the latest information from Rohloff on spoking.

See page 35 of the publication at this link: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf

I've also made access to the link for the latest edition of "Living With A Rohloff" conveniently sticky at the top of the "Rohloff Internal Hub Gears" board, here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13710.0

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on February 13, 2020, 09:05:48 pm
Well ...finally
 .. some genuine notice has been taken of the issues I highlighted when starting this thread. I see Andy has removed the paragraphs I suggested were actually misleading. Now all that is required is that Rohloff themselves provide clear , error free directives themselves !
I emailed Rohloff again on Monday asking for an update on the mistakes in their handbook/ download and whether they intend to  do anything about the confusion.
They have not replied which I think is rather poor as I've put quite a bit of time and effort into getting things resolved.
On a good note ..I personally dropped 2 hubs and rims off at Bridgewater on Tuesday to be built up and unbelievably they arrived today in the post ( 2 days later) beautifully packaged and nicely built ...(of course not in line with the instructions in the most recent download available on the Rohloff website!)
SJSC's also charged a very fair price including return post of both wheels for only £5 extra which was a very nice surprise.
So good on SJSC's and quite frankly shame on Rohloff for not clearing this all up .There are still questions to be answered and points confirmed but they seem reluctant to do so ....Perhaps this is all being attended to  (behind the scenes ).
 In the long run surely I've done them a favour and hopefully clarity will be provided but at the moment get the feeling that the issues highlighted are a nuisance for them and they'd rather ignore them
at least for the time being.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: leftpoole on February 14, 2020, 10:08:25 am
Hello,
Regarding the 'issues' does this mean that the Rohloff hub/wheel that I have in my 10 year old mint Raven Sport Tour requires a rebuild?
New rim will be required at some point in the future but should this be brought forward?
I do not understand anything about wheel buiulding, I just build beautiful bikes!
Regards,
John
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: martinf on February 14, 2020, 11:53:03 am
Regarding the 'issues' does this mean that the Rohloff hub/wheel that I have in my 10 year old mint Raven Sport Tour requires a rebuild?

Not in my opinion. The wheel was presumably built by Thorn/SJS, so it should be sound.

When the rim needs replacing it might be worth fitting flange support rings as part of the rebuild.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: Danneaux on February 14, 2020, 02:18:28 pm
Quote
Not in my opinion. The wheel was presumably built by Thorn/SJS, so it should be sound.

When the rim needs replacing it might be worth fitting flange support rings as part of the rebuild.
Agreed, Martin.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: willywombat on February 14, 2020, 05:29:59 pm
Having done a fair bit of moaning in this thread I thought it only fair to add that as someone who is particular about things being done right  (and fairly ) I  can recommend SJSC's wholeheartedly . They have a fantastic stock of hard to find parts  and build  very well made , practical cycles . Although I don't own a Thorn ( I  prefer 29ers with 2.5 ...3.00 tyres  for off road touring ) I have ridden several and appreciate the niche they fill  as well as the attention to detail often lacking in the competition . I also enjoy reading the technicolour articles and model brochures which contain a huge amount of information and detail for the discerning cyclist . 
I know SJSC'S don't need my approval but thanks for what you do ...you do it very well!
Title: Re: Rohloff spoke lacing uncertainty
Post by: PH on February 14, 2020, 10:57:33 pm
Regarding the 'issues' does this mean that the Rohloff hub/wheel that I have in my 10 year old mint Raven Sport Tour requires a rebuild?

Not in my opinion. The wheel was presumably built by Thorn/SJS, so it should be sound.

When the rim needs replacing it might be worth fitting flange support rings as part of the rebuild.
What Martin says, plus -
You've nothing to gain, the hub is already out of warranty, which only applied to the original owner anyway.  As explained in the Thorn documentation the rings don't stop the hub from breaking, what they do is allow you to continue using in the unlikely event it does.  My experience is you're going to be able to ride home with a spoke or two missing anyway, so unless home is going to be many thousands of miles away the rings serve no purpose. I haven't got them on either on mine and I'm not intending to do anything about that, I might include them in a future wheel build, but as both are disc brake that might be never.

If I had purchased a secondhand Rohloff wheel, I might be tempted to have the spoke tensions checked.  That's not to question the build, but there's some unknowns between then and now.  It's simple enough to do yourself if you have or can borrow a tension meter, if not take it to a wheel builder and get them to do it while you watch.