Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Transmission => Topic started by: Matt2matt2002 on August 13, 2019, 08:32:48 PM

Title: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on August 13, 2019, 08:32:48 PM
I know figures can be made to mean anything but here are mine - for what they are worth.

New front and rear chain rings (38/17 ) fitted to my Raven October 2014
Chainglider always covered the chain.
Chain - KMC X1 fitted at the same time.

Wear on chain was just nudging 0.75 this week so fitted a replacement.
KMC X1 EcoProTeQ

Mileage/time between chains: 6,400 / 3 years 10 months.

Chain never reversed. Lubricated rarely. Cleaned with a rag occasionally.
Front and rear rings look unworn.

Any thoughts/observations welcome, folks.


Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: martinf on August 13, 2019, 09:42:00 PM
IMO quite good for a bike used for expedition touring.

Compares extremely well with my last big tour with a derailleur bike (3300 kms during which I used up 4 chains). This bike had a rear U-brake under the bottom bracket which tended to spray muck and water onto the chain, so probably a "worst case" scenario.

Not yet relubed or cleaned the chains on my two Raven Tour bikes, they are still on the original factory lube. I just open the chainglider to visually check them, both are at about 1900 kms.

Raven Sport Tour without chainglider also still on the original factory lube at about 1100 kms, but with this bike I stay on decent roads and mostly use it in good weather.

On my Brompton used for commuting before retirement I would go 300-500 kms between cleaning/relubing chains, with average about 2000 kms before replacement at about 1% wear. The small wheels putting the transmission closer to the ground leads to the chain picking up more muck, the small rear sprocket needed for decent gearing probably doesn't help either.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: mickeg on August 13, 2019, 11:38:01 PM
I do not recall whom on this forum suggested that the chain with an IGH or single speed probably lasts longer than a derailleur chain, but I am beginning to think they were right.  Perhaps the varying chainline on a derailleur bike puts wear on a chain faster?  My Rohloff bike has a chainline error of 5mm.

I put a 1000 miles (~~ 1500 km) on my already worn chain on my Canadian Maritimes tour in June and July.  I do not recall how many times I lubed it, but in five weeks I probably lubed it less than once per week.  I expected to chuck it when I got home, but measured it and it still measured ok, no need to change it.  For the past couple years I have been using a Pedros wax lube, but ran out a few months ago, since then started using Finish Line Ceramic chain lube.

I have often commented here that I change my chains at 0.75 percent stretch, but I am starting to think that I could probably go to 1 percent stretch without putting too much wear on my chainring or rear cog on my Rohloff bike.  But I plan to continue changing at 0.75 percent on my derailleur bikes because cassettes and chainrings are much more expensive than chains. 

And one thought that I have recently had is that when my derailleur bikes get to 0.75 percent stretch, perhaps I should move those chains off of the derailleur bikes and onto my Rohloff bike and then replace at 1.0 percent stretch since I seem to get such good mileage on my Rohloff chains.  I typically put more distance on my derailleur bikes than on my Rohloff bike, although this year the 1000 miles I put on the Rohloff for that tour gives that bike a head start.

I have never used a chain glider, so my distances are not expected to be as good as those of you that use a chain glider.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Andre Jute on August 14, 2019, 06:37:31 AM
Mileage/time between chains: 6,400 / 3 years 10 months.

Thanks, Matt. On the assumption that "mileage" means miles and is not a generic for distance, and that you're about as tough as I am on chains, I conclude that the K1, at least in your hands and in mine, is not better value than the KMC X8-93 which which costs 40% as much as the K1 and has delivered 4506km in my hands  as compared to about 10300km for the K1 in your hands. The X8 was taken off at 0.5 wear; at the full whack of 0.75 the deck would be stacked even higher against the K1.

ADDED 14 August 2019: By the way, Matt, congrats on beating KMC's 10,000km guarantee, and without actually using their sprocket and chainring. See the URL posted by Brian, below.

However, every other chain I've ever owned, apart from the KMC X8 99-x and the Z7/8 (which are intended for hub gears while the X8 is intended for derailleurs) is under the same assumptions beaten hollow by the K1. Before I changed to a Rohloff/KMC chain/Chainglider setup, the variety of chains the LBS supplied never gave more than about 1000m/1600km -- and that's inside a chain-case, albeit not a Chainglider!) -- and cost about the same as the KMC chains.

I do not recall whom on this forum suggested that the chain with an IGH or single speed probably lasts longer than a derailleur chain, but I am beginning to think they were right.  Perhaps the varying chainline on a derailleur bike puts wear on a chain faster?  My Rohloff bike has a chainline error of 5mm.

That would be me, George. The logic is simple. Single speed chains have less flex or give, and thus less tolerance for angled chain lines or chainlines outside the manufacturer's specs. But a well-made derailleur chain, like the KMC X8, has enough flex and is supposed to flex as it accommodates considerable offset at the forward end of the chain.

For everyone else, except George, who's an engineer who can afford a new sprocket and doesn't find changing it a challenge, it is worth noticing that Rohloff expects the chain-line (tread factor or Q factor in boutique bicycle speak) to be within 1mm under all operating conditions.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: martinf on August 14, 2019, 08:11:52 AM
My take on chain wear for optimum component life:

1 use the largest practical rear sprocket/front chainring combination for the gearing I want. I believe small sprockets/small chainrings wear quicker and also cause the chain to wear quicker.

2 hub gear or single speed rather than derailleur. With no low hanging derailleur, chain is further from the ground, so less muck. Chain alignment is also generally much better. Also much easier to clean the chain/chainring/sprocket when necessary.

3 chain case. Only one I have found that works on bikes not originally designed for them is the Chainglider, and then only for certain chainring/sprocket combinations and on bikes that don't need a chain tensioner.

4 if no chaincase, a low-hanging front mudflap reduces muck and water spraying off the front wheel onto the chain. Still worthwhile with a Chainglider, as the latter isn't waterproof.

5 if no chaincase, a drum or roller brake on the rear avoids muck spraying off the rear rim brake onto the chain. Coaster brake also works, but I don't like these. Disc brakes probably have the same advantage.

6 for derailleur bikes, scrap chains at 0.75% wear to reduce wear on expensive multiple chainrings/sprockets.

7 for non-Rohloff hub gear bikes with very cheap rear sprockets: When the 1st chain needs cleaning, put a 2nd chain and sprocket on, clean the 1st chain/sprocket, when the 2nd chain/sprocket needs cleaning fit a 3rd chain/sprocket , ditto for a 4th. Then start again with the 1st chain/sprocket and keep doing this until the realtively expensive chainring is worn out. Variant with a symmetrical rear sprocket is to reverse the sprocket and use with two chains, some chainrings can also be reversed to even out wear. The Sturmey-Archer rear sprockets I use on my Sturmey-Archer and Shimano Nexus equipped bikes cost about 4 euros.

8 for Rohloff hub gear bikes I will probably treat like a derailleur bike and change chains at 0.75% wear and run several in succession. But clean them and keep them to reuse again to finish off the sprocket and chainring, as hub gears seem much more tolerant with worn chains.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: geocycle on August 14, 2019, 09:13:15 AM
Good mileage matt!  I get about 5-6000 miles out of a chain then reverse the sprocket and get the same.  Then I change the sprocket and reverse the chainring.  This is a rule of thumb and I have changed bits for other reasons down the line. 

In contrast I have had an 11 speed derailleur bike for a year which has already got 0.75% stretch on a chain after 900 miles.  I have just changed the derailleur chain just to keep the cassette running for longer.  I'd not want to do this on a high mileage bike.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: StuntPilot on August 14, 2019, 11:05:43 AM
I have been getting up to 10,000km with the KMC X1 without a Chainglider but with a large Brooks front mudguard flap. I replace at 1% wear. Very happy with this chain, and have a spare to keep me going.

However I have just been looking around the web for the KMC X1. It appears that SJS Cycles do not stock them anymore, and the US and EU KMC web site makes no mention of this chain. Both Rosebike and Bike24 in Germany also no longer supply the KMC X1.

Does anyone have further info and what the KMC X1 replacement is now for expedition touring with a Rohloff?
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: rafiki on August 14, 2019, 12:24:43 PM
Hi Brian, 

Thanks for  your request and your interest in our products. X1 hasn't disappeared but we just changed the name of the chain. The new name is e1, available in Nickelplate silver and EPT anti rust:

http://www.kmcchain.eu/chain-bmx_track_fixie-fixie-narrow
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: rafiki on August 14, 2019, 12:47:07 PM
They just followed up with this:

Do you know we have a more durable set up for your Rohloff bike?

http://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km+

This could be interesting for you.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: StuntPilot on August 14, 2019, 02:18:57 PM
Thats great info rafiki - many thanks for the links! Didn't know KMC made chain rings and sprockets too.

It appears that the more durable e101EPT chains are " x ⅛" for 10,000km lifespan whereas the e1EPT is the standard " x 3/32" guaranteed for 3,500km.

So to use the e101EPT chain your chainring and sprocket would need to be replaced at the same time as fitting the chain. Not sure if this larger ⅛" chain would work with the Thorn chainring protector?
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on August 14, 2019, 04:58:44 PM
. Not sure if this larger ⅛" chain would work with the Thorn chainring protector?........

Or my Chainglider!
I need to investigate.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: mickeg on August 14, 2019, 05:12:53 PM
Thanks for posting the info on KMC sprockets. 

***

If I had known that KMC would come out with a 20T sprocket for a splined Rohloff, I would not have bought a spare threaded sprocket when I did.  I would have waited for the KMC and switched to the splined version.

The KMC chainring appears to be a four bolt pattern, I use a five arm compact (110mm) crank.  But single speed width chainrings are readily available, so can obtain elsewhere.

When I first set up my Nomad in 2013, I recall reading this (most of you have seen me post this before):
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/chain-life.html

Based on that I stuck with the 16T standard sprocket that comes with a new Rohloff.  But if a 20T sprocket had been available, I would have ordered it and run it with a 52T chainring for around home.  At that time I was thinking what MartinF said above, that the largest sprocket and chainring that give you the ratio you want is desirable.  Thus, I would have gone with a 20T.  And for touring, would run the 44T chainring or maybe a 42T.

I do not run a chainglider, if I did perhaps that puts more limits on size selection.

***

For my response here, I did an internet search and found this:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/sprockets/thorn-sprocket-for-rohloff-hubs-19t/

I was unaware that SJS was making replacement threaded sprockets.  Interesting.

***

I would assume a 1/8 inch chain would last longer than a 3/32 as the pin to link friction area is larger and more spread out.  Since I have a new threaded sprocket sitting on the shelf, I won't be switching to splines for a long time.  When I do, I will likely use the KMC sprocket and 1/8 inch chains.  And larger diameters too.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: mickeg on August 14, 2019, 05:19:43 PM
. Not sure if this larger ⅛" chain would work with the Thorn chainring protector?........
...

Not sure what that is, is that the same as a bash guard?

If that is what you meant, since that does not touch the chain, I see no reason that it would not work with a 1/8 inch chain provided you also switched to the 1/8 inch chainring.  But if you used a narrower chainring, then the chain would be free to flop back and forth sideways in which case it might be close enough to rub.

If you wanted to stick with a narrow chainring and use the wider chain, if it rubbed on the chain then you would want to buy chainring spacers that move your chainring away from the crank spider.
https://wheelsmfg.com/products/crank-pedal-parts/chainring-spacers.html

Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: mickeg on August 14, 2019, 05:26:29 PM
Did anyone else notice that the E-bike sprockets and the mountain bike sprockets are the same part numbers?
http://www.kmcchain.eu/sprocket-KMC_Rohloff_Wide-e_bike
http://www.kmcchain.eu/sprocket-KMC_Rohloff_Wide-mtb
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: martinf on August 14, 2019, 09:25:19 PM
. Not sure if this larger ⅛" chain would work with the Thorn chainring protector?........

Or my Chainglider!
I need to investigate.

I have been running 1/8" chain, chainring (TA cyclotouriste) and sprocket (Sturmey-Archer) with a chainglider on my old utility bike since 2011. These are wider than recommended by Hebie, but haven't caused me any problems in the long run. I also converted my old visitor bike, which has the same 1/8" width chain/chainring/sprocket combination. No problems with that either.

On the old utility bike there was initially more noise at the chainring (rubbing) than with the more optimal 3/32" chain and narrow stainless steel Surly chainring setup on my Rohloff-equipped Raven Tour, but this soon settled down. Efficiency didn't seem to be affected to any significant extent. Looking at it, there seems to be plenty of room for a 1/8" chain and sprocket at the back end of the Chainglider, the fit seems tighter around the chainring.

So I reckon a Chainglider will probably work OK for the KMC sprocket and e101EPT chain. I am less certain for the KMC chainring.

I think someone had problems with the Thorn brand chainring in 3/32" rubbing excessively on a Chainglider.

I won't be rushing out to buy this new KMC system, as like some others on the forum I have spares of the old Rohloff screw-fit sprockets. And the KMC sprockets that fit Shimano and Sturmey Archer hub gears only go up to 20T, whereas I use 38x22T on the family bikes with these makes of gears.

But a good system for a new build Rohloff bike, and probably a good system for someone that does a lot of mileage and can't fit a Chainglider because of the limited chainring/sprocket combinations available. Thinking of Dan here, the KMC 42x20 setup is roughly the same as 36x17.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Andre Jute on August 14, 2019, 11:12:05 PM
They just followed up with this:

Do you know we have a more durable set up for your Rohloff bike?

http://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km+


Thanks Brian. Indeed very interesting. I'm a big believer in systems groups. (There are also some I hate, like the soft, quick-wearing Shimano Nexus crank/fixed chainring/chain/sprocket system. If one part of a system group is bad, chances are the other won't be much chop either.)

***
It seems to me the recent comment on the forum, that this sudden concern on the part of manufacturers that poor overstressed quick links should be used only once was inspired by the legal department rather than the longevity lab, is on the nose. KMC previously made a marketing point about the reusability of their quick links, supplying only one with each chain because it was supposed to be good for the life of the chain, no matter how often you opened and closed it for cleaning the chain. Now, suddenly, you're supposed to use them only once...
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: mickeg on August 15, 2019, 01:27:22 AM
...
It seems to me the recent comment on the forum, that this sudden concern on the part of manufacturers that poor overstressed quick links should be used only once was inspired by the legal department rather than the longevity lab, is on the nose. KMC previously made a marketing point about the reusability of their quick links, supplying only one with each chain because it was supposed to be good for the life of the chain, no matter how often you opened and closed it for cleaning the chain. Now, suddenly, you're supposed to use them only once...

I was unaware that KMC said to only use once.

I assumed the other brands said you should only use once so that you would have to buy more quick links to improve the profit margin so that the big shots could get bigger bonuses, it had not occurred to me that the legal dept proposed that.   Hmmmmmm.  I still think the big shots wanted bigger bonuses.

***

Have not flipped sprocket yet, the photo is about 1200 miles (or about 1800 km) ago. I think I will flip it when I change chains next time.

Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Danneaux on August 15, 2019, 02:41:37 AM
Quote
Thinking of Dan here, the KMC 42x20 setup is roughly the same as 36x17.
Thanks, Martin; a good thought indeed!

I am currently running 1/8in sprocket and chainring on my Fixie which I use rather more than expected. It is a converted 1970 road racer with long-ramp Campagnolo 1010 dropouts that allow plenty of room for tensioning the chain. The bike is setup for a perfect 42mm chainline with no deflection.

I started with 3/32in gears and a compatible derailleur chain, then swapped in the 1/8in chain and found immediately better life, but it is hard to know if that is due to the larger bearing surface area or due to construction or metallurgy. I played around a bit on spacing out the chainring to see how tolerant the wider 1/8in chain would be and found to no surprise it will tolerate some misalignment when paired with the narrower chainring and sprocket. The third iteration I'm running now is a full 1/8in drivetrain and if is showing the least wear as expected. Fixies are pretty hard on chains because they see tension under braking as well as under drive. I'm using the bike a lot on rides in hilly terrain and even on singletrack for up to 200km day rides and find it surprisingly good and amazingly versatile for such a simple setup.

I've been thinking about someday switching to a 1/8in setup on my Nomad and may do so at some point but I think the current setup will last "long enough" with reversing to still be a good value, so I'm in no hurry to convert. I did switch to the Rohloff slim splined carrier and have been pleased with the result so far. It sure will make reversing the cog while on tour an easy task but I heartily agree with George about the value of periodically removing the carrier to relube the threaded interface with anti-seize.

Still hoping Hebie will someday come out with a Chainglider to fit my present 36x17 setup so I can convert at minimal cost without having to invest in a new chainring and sprocket.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on August 15, 2019, 08:26:10 AM
Chainglider to fit my present 36x17 setup so I can convert at minimal cost without having to invest in a new chainring and sprocket.

But will the Chainglider take the new threaded slim line rear sprocket?
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: martinf on August 15, 2019, 07:58:41 PM
But will the Chainglider take the new threaded slim line rear sprocket?

I reckon probably yes. The rear part 350R S15 is specifically for Rohloff splined sprockets sizes 15 to 17.

But the Hebie website doesn't state whether the standard or slim line carrier should be used.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: DAntrim on August 15, 2019, 08:19:10 PM
But will the Chainglider take the new threaded slim line rear sprocket?

Hi Matt

I have the slimline fitted on the mercury with 17 / 38 combo, the chainglider fits fine so no problems there

Carlos
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on August 16, 2019, 09:10:56 AM
But will the Chainglider take the new threaded slim line rear sprocket?

Hi Matt

I have the slimline fitted on the mercury with 17 / 38 combo, the chainglider fits fine so no problems there

Carlos

Many thanks. For some strange reason I thought that the new rear sprockets would throw out the line to the front ring and make the Chainglider incompatible.
Title: Re: New Chain fitted to Raven
Post by: martinf on August 16, 2019, 05:31:32 PM
Many thanks. For some strange reason I thought that the new rear sprockets would throw out the line to the front ring and make the Chainglider incompatible.

That would be the non-slimline carrier, the chainline with this is further out than with the threaded sprocket. So two possible Chainglider issues here:
(i) the rear part might foul the chainstay (it probably would on my Raven Tour which is pretty close anyway)
(ii) if the chainring stays in the same place, the misalignment might compromise Chainglider use. So would probably need a different bottom bracket axle or use of spacers under the fixed cup (thinking traditional square taper bottom brackets here).

Another point is that AFAIK the rear part of the old Chainglider for Rohloff is not compatible with the current splined sprockets and the rear part of the current model Chainglider for Rohloff is not compatible with the old threaded sprockets