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Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: Andre Jute on April 12, 2019, 02:58:38 am

Title: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on April 12, 2019, 02:58:38 am
If you're new to Rohloff internal hub gears, follow the instructions in the manual closely.

If you're a more experienced owner who has previously successfully serviced your Rohloff, you can at your own risk gear up to Power-Servicing your Rohloff. It takes a little longer, and you have to measure the quantity of All-Seasons Oil accurately, but it results in a better and less wasteful service, because you're now creating less opportunity for excess oil to be flung out through the breather hole or to mist out.

The sort of Rohloff owner for whom this post is intended probably already has two large plastic containers of bulk Rolloff Cleaning Oil and All-Seasons Oil, and a collection of syringes and gearbox closure studs from previous services with the expensive single-use kits, whose main attraction is convenience.

Take out the stud. Do not drain anything immediately. Put in 25ml of Cleaning Oil. Draw out a little air to avoid air bubbles.  Disengage the tube. Put the stud back in. Ride the bike for two or three kilometres in gears 3 and 5, which will bring all the gears into play, and clean them with the thinner oil.

(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/andre_jute_powerserving_your_rohloff_april_2019_800pxh.jpg)

Drain the dirty old oil and the used cleaning oil from the gearbox by attaching a second syringe kept only for this purpose of dealing with dirty oil. Before attaching the syringe, draw it out to only 35ml rather than all the way. Now turn the wheel so that the oil stud hole with the attached syringe points downwards. Stand the syringe up against the tyre and go away for an hour. When you return there will be dirty oil in part of the syringe, though less than you expect. Don't worry about that -- the rest of the All-Seasons Oil misted away over the last 3000m/5000km or one year, but your expensive gearbox was never in danger because enough oil always clung to the gears to lubricate them; the factory apparently sends out new gearboxes with 12ml of oil, but you shouldn't shave it that fine. What you're seeing is the oil clinging to the gears that the cleaning oil has washed off. At this point slowly pull the syringe handle out all the way to suck in the last drops of dirty oil in the gearbox, and to avoid expensive and acrimonious drips on your wife's favourite Persian carpet when you unscrew the tube. (You're not servicing your bike in the shed, are you?) Pulling the syringe handle to create a vacuum in the syringe to suck out any remaining dirty oil or bits of knocked-off metal remaining in the box -- especially if it is new or only a little used -- is the essence of Power-Service. Notice in the photo above the dirty oil in the tube rather than the syringe: this is the oil that would have been retained in the gearbox by air pressure without you creating a vacuum for the last of the dirty oil to fill. Remove the dirty-oil syringe and, later, dispose thoughtfully of the dirty oil.

Now fill the clean-oil syringe with 14ml or so (refer to the UPDATE at the bottom of this post), of clean All-Seasons Oil (or in very extreme winter conditions -- read the manual! -- with more of the Cleaning Oil which is formulated for such conditions) and feed it to the gearbox with the stud-hole at the top. When the last drops are in the gearbox, suck out a few millilitres of air to equalise the pressures. You can reuse the old stud as long as grey oil-resistant sealing gunk remains around the thread. When the gunk is gone I fit a new stud which comes from Rohloff with the gunk on it. Or you can can recondition the old stud: "Rohloff use Weicon AN301-72, you can use Loctite 511," says Dave Whittle of Thorn. The official closing torque for the stud is 0.5Nm; I suggest that instead of trying to guess how low this is and perhaps winding the stud down into the gears, you wind the stud into the gearbox until at least one full thread remains above the surrounding gearbox shell, and stop there.

The Rohloff hub gearbox is a near-sentient creature. I notice that mine, when serviced on time and thoughtfully as above, always rewards me by letting me put back the EXT shift cover (which I service at the same time as the main oil service) without having to fiddle with the rotary gearshift control on the handlebars, an awkward business if you need one hand on the rear hub of the bike.

Now you and your Rohloff are good to go for another year or 3000m/5000km, whichever comes first.

UPDATE OCTOBER 2023
ROLLOFF HAS CAUGHT UP WITH THE MOST THOUGHTFUL OWNERS OF ITS HUB GEARBOX!
Latest advice from Rohloff in October 2023, in English at
https://www.rohloff.de/en/company/news/news/reduzierte-oelmenge-fuer-oelwechsel-ab-10-2023 (https://www.rohloff.de/en/company/news/news/reduzierte-oelmenge-fuer-oelwechsel-ab-10-2023)
is still to use 25ml of Cleaning Oil, but henceforth to fill with only 12.5ml of All Seasons Oil instead of 25ml. As half a millilitre is a difficult amount to measure precisely at home with the standard Rohloff syringe, and 13mm is perilously close to downside error, I'm leaving my original advice of 2019 to use 14ml of All Seasons Oil.

© 2019 2023 Andre Jute
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop on April 12, 2019, 09:16:25 am
This is almost exactly how we do it in the workshop. Have no problems with recommending the above, we do prefer to use a new drain screw every time though.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: energyman on April 12, 2019, 09:27:05 am
I note that there was no mention of having a cup of THORN tea whilst waiting for the oil to drain.
Serious omission !
;)
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on April 12, 2019, 10:05:15 am
This is almost exactly how we do it in the workshop. Have no problems with recommending the above, we do prefer to use a new drain screw every time though.

Thanks, Dave; I'm flattered.

I note that there was no mention of having a cup of THORN tea whilst waiting for the oil to drain.
Serious omission !
;)

Progress is slow on persuading the local supermarkets to stock THORN tea, Energyman. We have to make do with locally fermented elderflower juice.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: mickeg on April 12, 2019, 04:59:31 pm
I note that there was no mention of having a cup of THORN tea whilst waiting for the oil to drain.
Serious omission !
;)

I do it in the evening and substitute some red wine for the tea.

I reuse the fill plug screw, but I put a bit of blue Loctite (actually a competing brand) on the screw first.

***

My trip on a plane with my Rohloff resulted in a lot of oil leakage on the left side down in the EX box area.  (I have posted photos before.)  I suspect that air pressure changes during flight and possibly my S&S case being set down flat are the reasons.  But the next oil change did not leak at all, so that leakage clearly was a one off occurrence that I blame on the flight, not a bad seal on the hub.

In a few months I expect to get on a plane again with my Rohloff.  This time, I will do the cleaning oil rinse and drain, then put in the filler plug.  And pack up the bike for transport.  Upon getting off the plane and reassembling the bike I will add the lube oil.  Hopefully that solves the mess of leakage that I had last time.  I bought a spare plastic hose that threads onto the hub, spare fill plug screw in case the plug goes walk about, a small bottle to carry the fresh oil, and a smaller syringe to carry in my spares. 

Off topic but I use blue Loctite on my rack bolts.  After observing several other bike tourists that have lost rack bolts or other critical bolts (I lost a shoe cleat bolt a couple years ago too), I bought a spare tiny bottle of blue threadlocker to carry on tours in my bag of tools and spares so when I assemble the bike, I can reapply it to my rack bolts.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: John Saxby on April 12, 2019, 11:21:29 pm
Quote
Upon getting off the plane and reassembling the bike I will add the lube oil.

Thanks for that helpful tip, George.

And +1 for blue Loctite/Permatex on small nuts & bolts subject to vibration.

(Hv seen several old Britbikes in the last 2 weeks in the th Gold Coast, a kinetic reminder of the virtues of keeping things tight.) (And also a reminder of pervasive oil leaks.)
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop on April 15, 2019, 09:53:21 am
Quote
I put a bit of blue Loctite (actually a competing brand) on the screw first.

Blue medium strength loctite is fine on most bolts but not drain screws.

You need something oil proof that seals, your not actually looking to lock the thread.

Rohloff use Weicon AN301-72, you can use Loctite 511.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: mickeg on April 15, 2019, 05:14:31 pm
Quote
I put a bit of blue Loctite (actually a competing brand) on the screw first.

Blue medium strength loctite is fine on most bolts but not drain screws.

You need something oil proof that seals, your not actually looking to lock the thread.

Rohloff use Weicon AN301-72, you can use Loctite 511.

I mostly use it to inhibit dissimilar metal corrosion, not so much as a seal.  I will just keep doing what I do.  Thanks for the suggestion.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: willywombat on February 14, 2020, 10:54:58 pm
I know this is an old thread but I have a question that perhaps someone in the know could answer :

Andre says with the power service you add the cleaning oil without draining anything beforehand .

 In my mind surely draining what you can ,before adding the cleaning oil, might actually be a good idea , as this way would leave less work for the  cleaning oil to do ...( if the idea is that it washes away the residue clinging to the internals )

Presumably there is something I've missed.... unless it's done in this way to simply  reduce the number of times different syringes need to be connected.

I like to understand such things fully so if anyone can advise it would be much appreciated.

Many thanks fellow Speedhub obsessives!
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: PH on February 14, 2020, 11:04:16 pm
You could try that, it won't do any harm, but you won't get much out.  It needs the flushing oil to dilute it (There may be a more technical term!) Quite often you don't get out much more than the 25ml flushing oil you've put in, it just comes out dirty.  I've sometimes flushed twice, on a whim or just because I didn't like the colour of what came out the first time. 
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: mickeg on February 15, 2020, 01:35:56 am
Agree with PH, you will not get much if anything from an initial drain before you add the cleaning oil.  I have never noticed any oil drops on the floor where I store my Nomad, but some have noticed drops of oil on the floor under their hub.  And I suspect most of us use 15ml of oil (plus or minus a ml) when we add oil.  And probably half of that 15ml will be adhering to the hub innards and won't drain out if you tried to drain it.  Thus, there is not a lot of spare oil to drain out, even if none leaked.

I have noticed on regular occasion oil adhering to my rear skewer so I know that some leaks out.  (At one time I thought there was a vent in the hub axle, but I later realized I confused the Rohloff with the Son hubs, the vent is in the Son.)  I also commonly have some oil leakage on the left side where it accumulates on the EX box where it is an excellent dust magnet, a couple photos below. 

The second photo below was on my Iceland trip, I changed the oil at home before I flew to Iceland and I assumed some of the leakage was due to air pressure changes on the flight. 

After all that leakage on my Iceland tour, for my tour last summer I rinsed and drained the oil at home before my flight, but I did not add the lube oil to the hub until I arrived in Halifax and reassembled my bike.  Thus, there should not have been any leakage due to the pressure changes on the flight or from orientation of the hub (was it on its side during the flight?).  I noticed during the first several days that my low range gears (1-7) were the quietest that they had ever been, but over the weeks after that the gears slowly got noisier again as the EX box started to look more oily, I suspect as the oil leaked out that the gears had less dampening from the oil and thus was noisier.

Bottom line, if you want to drain the oil first in hopes of getting a few ml out, it won't hurt, but I am not going to waste the time trying.

If you are new the process, watch the video first.  But, wipe any dirt off of the hub before removing the screw, as most hubs are dirtier than the hub in the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVhmgqICNhU

And only tighten the screw at the end enough to stay, the hub shell is aluminum so if you try to tighten it too tight you risk stripping the threads.  That is why I renew the threadlock on the screw every time I put the screw in.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on February 15, 2020, 05:03:12 pm
Andre says with the power service you add the cleaning oil without draining anything beforehand .

On a bike that is regularly used, there will be nothing to drain. All the oil remaining in the gearbox sticks to the gears.

The only time that you may conceivably drain something substantial, somewhere nearer what you put into the box, is if an unused bike stood for the entire year after a service in a temperature-controlled room.

Paul, would you share with us how much you drained on the second cycle on those occasions when you double-cleaned the Rohloff?

The reason I say in the opening post to the thread that newbies should at first follow the manual, and that the Power Service is for experienced Rohloff users, is so the newbies can get comfortable with the idea that oil has somehow "disappeared".

There is a fuller explanation, plus some harum scarum from when I was a newbie myself, in the thread "Where is my used oil?":
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12606.msg93564#msg93564

In my mind surely draining what you can ,before adding the cleaning oil, might actually be a good idea , as this way would leave less work for the  cleaning oil to do ...( if the idea is that it washes away the residue clinging to the internals )

As PH says, you can try it, and I think everyone should, to prove for themselves that when they put 25ml of Cleaning Oil into a hub that they presume holds 25ml All-Season's Oil, total 50ml, and then drain the hub, they never get 50ml back.

Presumably there is something I've missed....

Uh-huh. Everyone hears "hub gearbox" -- and immediately draws a parallel with a motorcar gearbox, which runs, quite literally, in an oil bath. I did, and I bet many others on the forum did too. That's not even all: "running in an oil bath" is, particularly in bicycles, a heritage piece of false advertising indulged in by many bicycle and component makers over the years.

But the motorcar gearbox is the wrong analogy. The Rohloff HGB is not, repeat not, sealed in any way, because if it were, it would be far, far too heavy for bicycle use. The "seals" we hear about are designed to let the gearbox breathe, and therefore "mist out" any oil that doesn't cling to the gears. (Which is also the reason you must use only Rolloff-approved oils -- you don't know whether any other oil has been formulated to a) stick to the gears and b) be harmless to these innovative seals, some of them actually paper.) Check George's photos of the misted-out oil settled on his bike's rear end attracting dust while the rest of his (yellow!) bike appears clean. The main function of Rohloff seals is to keep dust out, not to keep oil in. That's why you shouldn't submerge a Rohloff in water, or use a power-spray on it.

Ironically, one of the main actual oil-proof seals in the Rohloff is the gunk around the stud in the hub you remove to put in oil... It is not, as is commonly assumed, threadlock.

Once you grasp the concept of a basically open-air gearbox (sort of like a rear derailleur cluster, but stronger, in a protective shell with some Chinese paper curtains over the openings) lubricated by the special oil sticking to the gear spindles and mating surfaces, you're ready for Power-Servicing Your Rohloff.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: PH on February 15, 2020, 11:49:10 pm

Paul, would you share with us how much you drained on the second cycle on those occasions when you double-cleaned the Rohloff?


I'd say on the second flush I'm getting out pretty much what I've put in.  There's always a small +/- depending on the ml or two in the syringes and tubes but as close to as to not make any difference. I don't ride the bike while changing the oil (Chances are it's a foul day, I've cleaned the bike once already and it's in the living room, so I'm not going out again!) I'll sit next to the bike on the stand and turn the cranks by hand while listening to some music!  I'll also let it drain into the syringe overnight, just leaving the refill to do in the morning.

My hub is currently leaking, or self changing oil as the British motorcycle industry used to call it. I must get round to sending it off to be sorted.

Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on February 16, 2020, 02:53:01 am
Thanks, Paul. Sorry to hear your hub has sprung a leak.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: mickeg on February 16, 2020, 09:53:49 am
...
My hub is currently leaking, or self changing oil as the British motorcycle industry used to call it. I must get round to sending it off to be sorted.

When the old brit bikes stopped leaking, you worried that you had run out of oil.

Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: John Saxby on February 16, 2020, 02:21:58 pm
Quote
self changing oil as the British motorcycle industry used to call it.

I always thought they were just marking their spot.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Danneaux on February 19, 2020, 02:50:57 am
Quote
I always thought they were just marking their spot.

;D

Shame on you, John, I was sipping a cup of tea when I read this...!  :o ;)

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: PH on August 03, 2020, 04:07:05 pm
I hope no one minds me adding to this post rather than starting afresh, I thought it might save some duplication.
My hub (Well one of them  ;)) is ready for an oil change, and a while ago while re-reading the excellent "Living with a Rohloff"  I noticed Andy Blance does something a little different - After a double flush, he adds 25ml oil, gives it a mix and then removes 18ml.  If I've understood it right, that only leaves 14ml in the hub (7 clinging to the parts and 7 free) but in theory that will be cleaner, fresher oil than what would be in there by any other method.
Anyone doing this?  Can you think of any drawbacks?  I've always been of the opinion that the service interval is way to short from a lubrication POV and the purpose was to flush the hub.  I don't have any evidence for this, though if it was required for lubrication doing so at a maximum 12 month interval, regardless of use, would seem pointless.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: martinf on August 03, 2020, 04:33:43 pm
I reckon mainly to flush the hub (there may be some water due to condensation).

IMO it is the main reason for frequent but sparing oil lubrication of old Sturmey Archer hubs. The slow outflow of oil reduces or stops the entry of water and dust. Main thing is not to overdo it and have oil running down the spokes onto the braking surfaces (not a problem with Rohloff).
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on August 03, 2020, 06:34:32 pm
Can't see what harm the Blance method does. If I rode those dusty roads on which he shows his and his wife's bikes on tour, I too would want some extra oil in the box to mist out and prevent the ingress of dust. After all, grinding paste is nothing but mixed dust and oil. The thing would be to find a balance between enough free oil to do the job, and so much that a quick daily wipedown becomes an impossible job of cleaning off caked-on dust. 7ml of free oil after he extracts the excess of 18ml in the second round sounds like a lot.

I'd like to know whether he returns the 18ml of excess oil he extracts to the canister... It seems to me there's a risk of contamination. Dan once posted on cleaning the EXT box thoroughly before changing grease types.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Danneaux on August 03, 2020, 09:08:31 pm
Quote
Dan once posted on cleaning the EXT box thoroughly before changing grease types.
Yep!

...and when touring in the desert, I do a wipe-down of the hub each night and use a (clean, washed, used) mascara brush between my exposed chain links to remove the desert playa before relubing the chain. You're absolutely correct about the composition of grinding paste and without some periodic care, that's what forms naturally as I ride in the desert.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Brush2805 on August 20, 2020, 05:22:58 pm
I followed these instructions and before attaching the syringe I drew it out to 35ml. I waited for over an hour and hardly any oil drained out. I had to suck it out with the syringe.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on August 20, 2020, 07:50:23 pm
I followed these instructions and before attaching the syringe I drew it out to 35ml. I waited for over an hour and hardly any oil drained out. I had to suck it out with the syringe.

Nothing to worry about. Sounds like a very tight syringe causing an air lock. As long as you got some dirty oil back out, and the gearbox accepted the 14ml or more all seasons oil that you put in at the next step without overflowing, you're good to go.

It would be good to hear that
-- before you started the service, you cleaned the hub so that the vents weren't blocked, and
-- after filling with fresh oil, you drew out a little air to equalise the internal and external air pressure so that the problem doesn't occur again.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: buffet on June 13, 2021, 12:50:01 pm
I was performing my first oil change procedure today. One thing caught my eye and got me paranoid: when I unscrewed the oil drain plug, and looked inside the hole, it seems like the hole in the internals of the hub does not align with the hole on the outer shell. Please check the photo I took below. Is this normal?

Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: WorldTourer on June 13, 2021, 01:52:12 pm
I was performing my first oil change procedure today. One thing caught my eye and got me paranoid: when I unscrewed the oil drain plug, and looked inside the hole, it seems like the hole in the internals of the hub does not align with the hole on the outer shell. Please check the photo I took below. Is this normal?

I wouldn't worry about a slightly off-center oil hole like that. I think my own hub is similar. Since you use a syringe with a threaded-screw tube when you change the oil, the oil is going to go where it needs to go regardless.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: PH on June 13, 2021, 03:51:37 pm
I've never noticed, next time I do an oil change I'll have a look, but I'm assuming that's normal.  I'm not sure it has anything to line up with, I thought all parts of the internals rotated hence the warnings about not screwing the plug in too far.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: rafiki on June 13, 2021, 05:42:39 pm
My recollection is that I see a similar overlap.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on June 13, 2021, 06:14:32 pm
My recollection is that I see a similar overlap.

Snap

Best
Matt
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on June 13, 2021, 06:40:55 pm
Your photograph shows that the oil goes slightly sideways and then down. It doesn't actually matter where the new oil goes as long as it doesn't come out again, which as WorldTourer says is unlikely with a screw-fit pipe. You just need to wheel the bike a few feet or lift it up by the rack and turn the pedals and all those surfaces will be coated in fresh All-Seasons Oil. If you are worried about it, ride the bike a bit in gears 3 and 5, which will put both gear trains in use, same as you did to give the lighter cleaning oil a good chance to clean all surfaces.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: buffet on June 14, 2021, 06:13:50 am
Thank you all for clarification. I actually enjoyed the oil-changing procedure, it felt like doing something good for the hub  :D
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: steve216c on June 14, 2021, 10:46:59 pm
Rohloff warn about not overtightening the grub screw after oil change. That metal non aligned surface may be the reason if it is a moving part.
But as others have said, we also have it, so you are in good company or all our hubs are toast. :o
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: sudo on September 01, 2021, 10:15:38 am
Regarding the oil fill hole, as others have said, it is completely normal; nothing to worry about.

I'd like to point out though, with respect, that the part visible underneath the fill screw actually doesn't rotate relative to the hub shell. If you're interested, what you're looking at is part of the second stage planet carrier, which is directly connected to the hub shell via the nylon overload pins. As a result, any time you open the fill screw you'll see the same "misaligned" gap.

On my hub, I actually don't see any gap at all, but the oil can still get to where it needs to be.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on September 01, 2021, 05:57:02 pm
Interesting point Sudo.
I always take a peek inside when oil changing.
And always see the same!
Now I know why.

Best

Matt
( Who always likes to learn six new things a day )
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Bill on September 20, 2021, 02:04:43 am
I'm just finishing my third oil change of the season, this time on my refurbished Thorn Raven Nomad, and as usual I consult this thread for the wisdom conatained therein. Thanks, guys.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on September 20, 2021, 10:41:41 am
I'm just finishing my third oil change of the season, this time on my refurbished Thorn Raven Nomad, and as usual I consult this thread for the wisdom conatained therein. Thanks, guys.
May I ask your mileage this year?
I'm a two and a half thousand mile a year man myself.
More if I can tour abroad. Fingers crossed for next year.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on September 20, 2021, 07:41:58 pm
That sounds like a 15K plus year, Bill. A marvelous achievement, of course. But how'd you manage in the lockdown not to get arrested?
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: PH on September 20, 2021, 08:01:53 pm
That sounds like a 15K plus year, Bill. A marvelous achievement, of course.
I'm guessing Bil changes the oil in more than one Rohloff, there's a clue when he says "This time", and without more information there's no way of knowing the distance  ;)
I'd be doing three oil changes a year, even if I didn't ride at all.
Quote
But how'd you manage in the lockdown not to get arrested?
I don't know where Bill is located, but in England there's never been a restriction on how far you can cycle.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Bill on September 21, 2021, 04:43:38 am
Oops, sorry guys, bad phrasing, I have three Rohloffs and every one gets an annual oil change.
Little bit late in the season for the Thorn but Ivve been doing some work on it, and its just now ready to go.
I have a friend who does 10 000 km+ ever year, which is tough to do in a climate where the roads are covered in snow and ice for 5-6 months per year.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on March 31, 2022, 01:13:04 am
On Sunday I serviced my Rohloff with 25ml of Cleaning Oil -- and on Wednesday got 30ml back after the syringe hung down from the drain hole for two days. Here's the proof:

(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/Andre%20Jute%2030ml%20of%20dirty%20oil%20back%20800pxh.jpg)
Hallelujah! 30ml of oil drained from Rohloff Speed 14. Unfortunately, there were special circumstances.

Let's do some quick math here. Inside the Rohloff there should be the 16ml of All Season Oil that I put in at the previous Power Service last year, plus the 25ml of Cleaning Oil I put in on Sunday, total 41ml less what dropped on the paper I put on the floor, in any event say at least 37ml (that's a different calculation: 12ml of All Season Oil that sticks to the gears plus the 25ml of Cleaning Oil, with the difference of 4ml presumed misted out or dripped out of the tube after I detached the syringe). However, experienced Rohloff cyclists know for a fact, and I do too, that if you get much oil at all out after putting in 25ml of Cleaning Oil, you never get even the whole 25ml of Cleaning Oil back.

Okay. What happened here? Special circumstances is what happened here. The year before the Chinese virus, Covid-19, wasn't too great for cycling in Ireland and my pedalpals kept dying or breaking their bones in golfing falls, so my total distance was a miserable 600km. Then came the pandemic and it soon became obvious that the mandatory mask steamed up my spectacles every couple of seconds so that I couldn't even ride into the countryside to the permissible radial limit from my house. To cut a miserable long story short, I hardly cycled for the two years of the pandemic. But I still serviced the gearbox on the once-a-year schedule, and I've been getting more and more oil back out, and less and less black. But this is the first time I've seen somewhere near what the math which so upsets newbies misleads us into thinking should have come out.

Okay, let's make some new math to explain what we're seeing. Last year, after servicing the Rohloff with Cleaning Oil, and draining the Cleaning Oil, and filling with 16ml of All Season Oil, there was, at the moment I finished the service and screwed in the new stud, the following in the Rohloff:
1. A mixture of whatever old All Season Oil wasn't washed off by the Cleaning Oil, with some Cleaning Oil sticking to surfaces, minimum together 12ml.
2. Possibly a small amount of dirty mixture not fully extracted, maybe 2ml or 3ml.
3. 16ml of All Season Oil I put in.
4. Can we all agree this is a minimum of 28ml or perhaps 30ml in the gearbox?

Now the bike stands for all of last year and the first few months of this year, except for a few very short rides to the shops, very likely a few tens of kilometers. The only time the gearbox moves seriously is when I spin the wheel with the motor so the oil and whatever scarf remains in the box doesn't settle in one place and get stuck there by dried oil. Nothing is flung out and what is misted out doesn't settle on the tiles on which the bike stands, so I can't tell how much has misted out. That has to wait for the next service, this one, as has an assessment of how much water vapor entered the box.

Now let's calculate what I got back this year in "dirty" oil for disposal. There was, by our last calculation, 28ml or perhaps 30ml of various oils in the box a year ago, and on Sunday last I added 25ml, call the total 55ml and a couple of days later drained 30ml, or say 32ml to allow for spills. It seems unlikely to me that anything misted out or condensed inside the gearbox in this brief period when nothing about the heat cycle around the bike was changed. Okay, here we go:
1. 55ml total presumed in gearbox.
2. 32ml taken out.
3. A further 12ml sticking to gears and inside structures and walls of the Rohloff.
4. So we have to account for 55 - 32 - 12 or 11ml that misted out plus some amount for water condensation from the ambient air, which I'm planning to ignore unless someone wants to put a number on it.

Finally, unless someone finds a logical flaw, we have a handle on why so little comes out of a Rohloff after a 5000km/3000m of use or one year of even near-zero use.

About 11ml is the minimum annual "missing oil" from the Rohloff Speed 14 even with no use. With use it seems to me inevitable that the "lost oil" will amount to more than 11ml.

***
We're not talking about very dirty oil but that the cleaning oil should become at all darker when cleaning an essentially unused Rohloff raises the obvious question: Why? First of all, the Rohloff HGB isn't sealed against air, which carries water vapor, which will react with oil and discolor it. Second, the Rohloff is made of aluminium, which also reacts with oil. Third, there's steel inside the Rohloff which is subject to rust. Fourth, you never get all the dirty Cleaning Oil out of the Rohloff, because it too sticks to the gears, complete with whatever dirt it picked up from easier services, so at the next cleaning cycle, even if the bike was not used, the Cleaning Oil extracted will bring at least a little "heritage dirt" with it.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: John Saxby on April 02, 2022, 05:56:18 am
Ah, so.  Thank you, Andre, thorough and clear as always.

I confess I never wondered or wondered a great deal about the discrepancies betw Oil In and Oil Out, mostly 'cos I trusted that the hub was getting reasonably clean from its annual flushing (to judge from the "healthy amount" of dirty oil); and reasonably lubed from the ~18 ml of Hub Oil I insert each year.

Clearly, there's more going on than I was aware off.  Glad to know that Someone is abreast of it.  And, if my prospective buyer of Osi the Raven does buy the bike in May, I'll make sure that she knows where she can unravel Oily Rohloffian Mysteries.

In mostly unrelated matters:  have done a couple of short-but-lovely rides along the Gold Coast to reacquaint myself with my derailleur bike on a Real Road -- fotos and scribblings to follow.

Cheers,  J.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: Andre Jute on April 02, 2022, 11:09:06 am
In mostly unrelated matters:  have done a couple of short-but-lovely rides along the Gold Coast to reacquaint myself with my derailleur bike on a Real Road -- fotos and scribblings to follow.

Thanks for the timely reminder that I hadn't yet opened the 2022 rides page, now remedied -- click on either line:
+++ Rides 2022 +++ Add yours here +++ (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14555.0)
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14555.0 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14555.0)

I look forward keenly to seeing your rides, John.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: JohnR on May 27, 2022, 06:55:34 pm
Yesterday I gave my Birdy Rohloff its first oil change as I've had the bike a year although it's only clocked up 600 miles. First I sucked out about 10ml of black oil which had the consistency of treacle before adding the flushing oil. That, in turn, came out black with a metallic glint so I did a 2nd flush using about 10ml to help clean some more muck and then drained that out before adding the full 25ml of new oil. There were several trips up and down the local street mainly in 3rd and 5th gears after each addition of flushing oil.

Riding with a nearly new hub that has the occasional sticky gear shift and is noisy in low range reminds me how much these hubs improve once they've clocked up a few thousand miles and several oil changes. However, while the Birdy's suspension does a good job of smoothing out the worst road imperfections, it feels much more draggy than my other bikes. I suspect that one contributor to this drag is the dynamo and the always on lighting.
Title: Re: Power-servicing your Rohloff
Post by: JohnR on June 10, 2022, 10:09:24 pm
I did an oil change for another Rohloff hub today as it had done 2400 miles since an oil change last September. My attempt to drain some of the old oil before adding the cleaning oil came to nothing, after which 20ml of cleaning oil went in followed, after about 10 minutes of cycling the local street in mainly 3rd & 5th gears, by 20ml of filthy cleaning oil coming out. It's almost as if I didn't put enough oil in at the previous service. I added 20ml of new oil which will probably get changed before winter as I don't want to be trying to change the oil when it's cold.