Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: JimK on June 13, 2018, 10:25:08 PM

Title: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: JimK on June 13, 2018, 10:25:08 PM
I'm nearing 20,000 miles on my original pads & decided not to push my luck too much. So new pads went on today. The big surprise was that the rear pads look more worn than the front pads. I think I have a tendency to use my rear brake as a drag on long descents & to save my front brake for when I really need to stop. Mostly though I just sit up tall and let my baggy shirt catch the wind coming down the big hills!

(https://app.box.com/shared/static/nqn0nuuht5vtt2osh5bxkv7iw204e288.jpg)

Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: mickeg on June 14, 2018, 12:38:03 AM
Keep the old ones for spares.  Looks like they still have lots of miles.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: Dave Whittle Thorn Workshop on June 14, 2018, 09:41:53 AM
The problem I find with them after they wear past about 50% is that they don't brake very well in the wet as the water dispersal groves have gone.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: jags on June 14, 2018, 11:39:03 PM
pretty good even ware, bin the old stick on new to be sure to be sure ;)


anto.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: mickeg on June 15, 2018, 12:50:45 AM
For comparison, the attached photo is of the brake pads I took off my bike after I finished my Pacific Coast tour.  Lots of steep hills on that trip.  The rims were normal, not CSS rims.

Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: PH on June 15, 2018, 11:36:56 AM
I'm nearing 20,000 miles on my original pads
have you tried using non CSS pads yet?
I can't remember how many miles I'd done but once the rim surface was smooth I changed to some of the normal pads I use on non CSS rims and the braking was at least as good and the wear rate acceptable.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: mickeg on June 15, 2018, 08:27:18 PM
...
...
I can't remember how many miles I'd done but once the rim surface was smooth I changed to some of the normal pads I use on non CSS rims and the braking was at least as good and the wear rate acceptable.

Thanks for posting, I suspected that might be the case, but I think you are the first whom has tried that and reported on it here.

My Koolstop CSS pads are not worn far enough to need changing yet, plus I have another spare set.  But by the time the spares are shot my rims should be smooth enough to warrant trying the softer pads.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: JimK on July 24, 2018, 05:20:05 AM
Bizarre experience today. I rode down to Salt Lake City, about 50 miles, and took the train back. I've done this quite a few times by now. There is a series of bike paths almost the whole way. There is one little connection that I had hope would be in place but I discovered isn't... oh well.

When I left the house, my brakes were working. But about half way to SLC... what? I am missing one brake pad off my rear brake!?! How could something like that happen?

Fortunately the path is extremely flat so it wasn't a big problem. I don't think I damaged my rim at all.

One fun coincidence.... there is a nice bike shop on the north side of SLC, where I come into town. In the past they've not been open on Mondays. I thought, hmmm, tomorrow is a big Utah holiday, Pioneer Day, and lots of shops are closed. Maybe this shop will be open? So I adjusted my route a little to swing by, and, wow, now the sign on the door says they're only closed on Sundays. Of course they didn't have pads for CSS rims, but that's no big deal. But it turned out that their new hours started today! This was the first Monday they were open!

My best theory is not a very good theory. But I did stop for a break at a grocery store along the way. Plenty hot here - upper 90s F I would guess. So I ate my banana in the store with their nice air conditioning. When I went out, there was another bike next to mine... and then a young man, I'd guess 14 or 15 years old, walked up to it. Perhaps I was the target of some teenage prank? Far fetched, but how does a brake pad fall out otherwise?
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: mickeg on July 24, 2018, 06:04:18 PM
Bizarre experience today. ...
When I left the house, my brakes were working. But about half way to SLC... what? I am missing one brake pad off my rear brake!?! How could something like that happen?...

That little pin that goes into the pad is intended to keep the pad from sliding out of the holder if you have the brake on while you roll backwards.  If you forgot to put the pin in or if the pin fell out, ...

Decades ago I had a bike where I remember the pad coming half way out of the holder when I was using the brake to avoid rolling backwards down a hill.  I do not recall the exact situation, maybe it was uphill and I stopped at a stop light or something like that.  Decades ago, brake pad holders like that never had pins in them, they relied on friction to hold the pad in the holder.

Or, on the pad holder there is a rotation arrow, if you put the pads and holders onto the bike with the right side on the left, etc., then the pin would keep the pads in the holder when braking - but that pin is tiny and I could see a hard brake put enough force on the pin to cause the pin to be insufficient for the task.  But I doubt that was what happened because if that happened you should have noticed when the pad slid out and you lost half your braking power while the metal on metal noise should have alerted you to something being not quite right.



Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: John Saxby on July 24, 2018, 09:11:08 PM
Jeez, Jim, glad it happened on a flat bit of ground, and not during a canyon descent... Trust you can get the replacement you need?

Very good detective thinking, George, assessing the possibilities--there's no substitute for detailed knowledge + relevant experience.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: JimK on July 24, 2018, 09:33:36 PM
Right now I am thinking... what fun, on my rear brake now I have a Swiss Stop Blue pad on one side and a hmmm something else on the other. I'll just ride like that for a while & keep an eye on how they wear. It'll be a nice experiment!

But yeah I need to order more brake pads. That was a brand new pad that disappeared! Rats!
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: il padrone on July 25, 2018, 10:17:13 AM
The problem I find with them after they wear past about 50% is that they don't brake very well in the wet as the water dispersal groves have gone.
This happened to me yesterday. In very heavy rain, on a descent to a right turn; it was mighty disturbing  :-[

The bike has now done 50,000 kms and this is the second set of Swisstop Blues. The first were changed over at something like 30,000 kms. The Andra 30 CSS rims seem to now have scrubbed off all the carbide surface, so maybe one option is to go back to regular pads like Koolstop Salmon??

For future plans, does anyone know whether Thorn have designed a rigid front disc fork? I know they recommended against this back in 2010, but in the intervening years SO MANY touring bikes have been built and used all around the world with disc brakes on rigid forks that perhaps the advice (and fork availability) merits a change.

Any advice is valued. I would really love to be able to fit a rear disc-brake, and a matching front disc-brake as well. It will be a very expensive process but ultimately of great value (and safer braking in the wet).
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: il padrone on July 25, 2018, 10:19:08 AM
Hooray!!!

Question now solved by looking a bit further. A Thorn Nomad front disc fork  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on July 25, 2018, 08:11:41 PM
Maybe.its.my rims but I find the Blue Swisstop bad in rain even when new. Let alone partly worn.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: lestat_12345 on July 26, 2018, 07:38:12 AM
I agree with you Matt. My Swisstop blue pads have always performed badly in the wet regardless of age. I'm currently using my other Rohloff which I built into a non-CSS rim with Kool Stop salmon pads. These pads brake so much better in the rain that I am reluctant to use the CSS rim again. I'll probably just build the other Rohloff into a non-CSS rim as well. The only downfall is that the brake pads only last a fraction of the time you get with CSS pads so there is a much higher maintenance cost. But I'd rather have my improved braking over cost savings any day.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: JimK on August 21, 2018, 01:24:04 AM
Here is something wild and crazy. I was stopped at a red light. I noticed that my rear brake had stopped working. What? It was working like ten seconds before!?! The brake pad must have fallen out right then. I look down: there it is, on the ground. The little pin is missing, but whatever.

So I think somehow at a stop light I tend to hold the brakes on and rock the bike and that seems to push the pad out. I have not got those little pins in properly, I suppose, so that's why I am seeing the failure now while I didn't with the original pads - those SJS bike builders know what they're doing!
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: John Saxby on August 21, 2018, 02:01:22 AM
Jeez, Jim, at our age, people think they're giving us compliments by saying, "Rock on," but I think maybe you shd ease up there, at least at red lights...

Make sure those wee pins are seated, eh?

Cheers,  John
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: JimK on August 21, 2018, 02:50:35 AM
yeah I need to find a replacement pin... or maybe just improvise - do they sell those pins separately?
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: Danneaux on August 21, 2018, 03:44:15 AM
Quote
Make sure those wee pins are seated, eh?
...And from above, not below!  ;)

If inserted from below (yes, it is possible), they can eventually fall out (also possible).

Jim, the good news is most of these little pins are replaceable. Many bike shops are foresighted enough to save the ones they pull out and will have them in their spares boxes because they can easily be lost on the shop floor and it is far quicker to insert a replacement than find the lost one.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: PRP on September 30, 2018, 12:36:55 AM
hello, regarding CSS rims ..... is there any rim damage/contamination problem in using a "standard " brake pad insert [ie not a blue SwissStop]?  .what about "standard pad" wet and dry braking performance ? .i am guessing that "standard"  pad compound will be softer and wear faster.   thanks for any replies. PRP
Title: Re: swiss stop blue pads
Post by: mickeg on September 30, 2018, 02:33:48 PM
hello, regarding CSS rims ..... is there any rim damage/contamination problem in using a "standard " brake pad insert [ie not a blue SwissStop]?  .what about "standard pad" wet and dry braking performance ? .i am guessing that "standard"  pad compound will be softer and wear faster.   thanks for any replies. PRP

When I first got my CSS rims, I was curious so I tried some regular pads and within a couple miles there was a bit of residue built up on the rim.  Switched to the Koolstop CSS pads that I bought to use on those rims immediately after that.  Have since been using the Koolstop CSS pads.

I have one more pair of Koolstop CSS pads (enough for one wheel), after that I plan to try regular pads.  I have two wheels with CSS rims, at my current rate of pad wear I will probably try regular pads in three or four years on one wheel.  Since my rims are smoothed down somewhat now compared to when new, maybe regular pads will work?

Koolstop makes Carbide pads that are different from Koolstop CSS pads.  I previously asked if Koolstop Carbide pads would work on CSS rims, Dave from the shop responded this way. 
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11275.msg84563#msg84563