Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: PH on April 06, 2018, 03:03:09 am
-
EDIT - Thread resurrected January 2023, skip straight to that if you like ;)
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12866.msg111023#msg111023
The question in the title really.
If you are, what did you ride before and how does it compare? How do you have it set up?
I'm in a bit of a quandary, I bought the Mercury with the intention of using it partly to replace my Audax bike. But having ridden 4 200s I'm not sure it will, there hasn't been any problem, it's certainly comfortable, but the times have been well down on what I would have expected on those routes in those conditions and I've dropped out of a couple of groups I'd have expected to stay with. I have a few longer and hillier ones booked in over the next two months, and if I'm not going to use the Merc I need to spend money on the Audax to get it ready. My Mercury isn't the lightest build, I could shave maybe 1.5 kg off it, lighter tyres and tubes (Which I'll probably do for the summer anyway) change the rack, maybe a different saddle, swap the Carradice saddlebag... but I don't want to be spending money on both bikes! I'm still a little irritated that it isn't designed with separate rack and mudguard fittings, for a bike intended to be so versatile being able to drop the rack on and off without effecting the guards ought to be straightforward.
Anyway, your thoughts appreciated, particularly if you have direct experience of the subject.
Thanks
-
I'm still a little irritated that it isn't designed with separate rack and mudguard fittings, for a bike intended to be so versatile being able to drop the rack on and off without effecting the guards ought to be straightforward.
Hi Paul,
I realize this won't answer your primary question, but I do have a suggestion that may prove helpful with co-locating the rear rack and mudguard stays -- and making it possible to quickly remove or mount the rack without disturbing the mudguards:
If you take a threaded M5 (5mm x 0.8mm) threaded bolt and cut off the head, you'll have a threaded stud. Finish the cut end and fit two nuts jammed against each other to make a temporary head to screw the stud into place. I'd suggest some blue (medium) thread locking compound on the boss where the stud screws in, but it is not strictly necessary because a jam nut will hold it is place -- unscrew the outer nut and thread the inner nut so it jams against the shoulder of the threaded boss. You now have a mounting stud.
Place the mudguard eye(s) onto the stud first and secure using a stainless washer and nylock nut.
Now, you can attach or remove your rack easily by fitting its mounting eyes over the exposed stud, securing it in place using another washer and nylock nut. When the rack is not present, the mudguards will stay in place and you can use a presta valve nut to cover the exposed stud threads to avoid injury. You will need to manually spread/stretch/pull the rack ends apart slightly to fit over the studs, but it is elastic enough to spring back once it is mounted of you fit one leg at a time.
I have used this setup for many years on one of my bikes and it has worked fine so long as the rack load is reasonable, though I've never had problems with stud fracture or nut loosening while carrying as much as 15kg on the rack.
=====
Please (prompted by curiosity), what do your Audax and Mercury weigh dry when outfitted for Audax rides?
Best,
Dan.
-
Thanks Dan, a decent shout, I may go down that route, though the rack spaced out further than necessary isn't ideal but acceptable for the loads I carry. It's certainly a more economical solution than spending £££s on a titanium rack!
Please (prompted by curiosity), what do your Audax and Mercury weigh dry when outfitted for Audax rides?
My Audax bike is a SOMA ES, Tange frame & forks, Campag 9speed triple, 28mm tyres, guards - ready to ride 10.6 kg
The Merc, is currently 13.8 kg - it's not a fair comparison, as above it could shed between 1.5 and 2 kg depending on the rack solution.
There's always going to be around 1 kg difference, Rohloff, wider rims & tyres, EBB, dynamo system, so the crux of my question is will that bring them close enough not to matter, or is it something other than the weight that makes the Merc a less suitable bike.
The ideal answer is of course suck it and see, and that may prove the only answer. In practical terms that means spending money on the Audax bike when it would be easier to sell the frameset and keep the parts as spares for another bike, and spending money lightening the Merc which will have been unnecessary if I then don't Audax on it....
-
My Mercury isn't the lightest build, I could shave maybe 1.5 kg off it, lighter tyres and tubes (Which I'll probably do for the summer anyway)
I don't do Audax, but I have done a similar style of riding for "training" purposes.
If you intend to put lighter tyres and tubes on your Mercury anyway, I would advise doing that without spending money on any other modifications, then doing a few back-to back training rides to compare your Audax and your Mercury over the same circuit.
I did this kind of thing a few years ago for 2 separate reasons:
1 - to see whether fitting a Chainglider made any appreciable difference to efficiency. I was very sceptical about the way the Chainglider rubs on chain, sprocket and chainring. A few timed rides before and after fitting the Chainglider to my old utilty bike led me to conclude that it made no real difference, despite the sub-optimal setup (thick TA alloy chainring and 1/8" chain). Average speed for 4 x 25 kms without chainglider 24.0 kph, for 4 x 25 kms with chainglider 23.99 kph.
2 - to try and see whether a Rohloff would be significantly less efficient than a similar wide range derailleur system for loaded touring. To do this, I cleaned the wide range derailleur system on my old "heavy tourer" and did a few timed rides round my moderately hilly approx 50 km training loop. I then converted the bike to use a (new) Nexus 8 Premium hub gear (without changing anything else apart from the transmission, gear shifters and rear wheel) and repeated the test rides a few times.
My expectation before doing the rides was for the derailleur setup to be more efficient, but for 5 circuits with derailleur gears followed by 5 circuits with the hub gear I found no significant difference, average speed was very close to 24 kph for both setups.
After doing the tests, I flushed out the original grease from the Nexus 8 and lubricated it with synthetic gearbox oil. I have no figures to back this up, but I believe this improves the efficiency of the Nexus 8 Premium hub. Combined with running-in (gearboxes usually improve after a certain amount of use) I am reasonably convinced that there is no significant difference in efficiency between Nexus 8 Premium and wide range derailleur gears for my type of riding over moderately hilly terrain.
Caveat - I used a Shimano Nexus 8 Premium and not a Rohloff for my tests. It is possible that the Rohloff may be inherently less efficient than the Nexus, or (more probable IMO) it may require more "running in".
Round the same circuit, my best consistent performer was my lightweight 700C derailleur bike with supple Michelin Dynamic 28 mm tyres, and weighing several kg less than my "heavy tourer). Average speed for 26 circuits 25.19 kph. I used the lightweight 700C bike most as my aim was to get at least 2,000 kms of training before doing my Spain tour in 2011.
I did manage to beat this (for 1 circuit) using a cramped aerodynamic position (hands on the low part of the P-bars) on my hub geared Brompton, speed 25.89 kph. Not at all significant, and much less comfortable than using drop bars, but it reinforced my belief that aerodynamics and tyres (the Brompton had lightweight Kevlar-bead Kojak tyres) are the most important variables to play with if increased speed is the aim.
Before that, to liven up my daily commute in 2004 (22 kms each way at the time), I had already done some back-to-back tests comparing several different bikes and playing around with different tyres and handlebar configurations.
The 2 biggest factors I found that affected average speed were riding position (drop bars significantly faster than straight or roadster bars) and tyres (lightweight tyres with supple sidewalls significantly faster than tyres with thick sidewalls).
The only significant gearing conclusion I reached was that the Shimano Nexus 7 was significantly slower than the old Sturmey-Archer oil-lubricated S5-2 five speed hub gear. The Nexus 7 is reputed to be relatively inefficient compared to other hub gears. The Nexus 7 improved slightly after a bit of running in, and after I relubricated it with a low-viscosity grease.
Comparing two rather similar straight-bar bikes, one with derailleur gears and the other with a Sturmey-Archer oil-lubricated S5-2 five speed hub gear, the respective average speeds were 24.19 for the derailleur and 23.69 for the hub gear, which I didn't consider as significant (there were other minor differences between the two bikes).
-
good set of lightweight strong custom wheels with compass tyres are the secret . ;)
-
Thanks all - as much as I'd like there to be an answer I think martinf has summed it up in that the only way to "know" is to test it extensively, no amount of thinking about it or talking is going to come up with a conclusion, though I'm still interested in other's experience.
I've just ordered the parts to make the SOMA roadworthy, money I didn't really want to spend and won't see back if I don't keep it, hey ho...
To even it up, I'll strip the Merc back a bit before using for Audax, rack and dynamo off, minimise luggage and just to please jags I'll stick an Open Pro front wheel on, though the budget doesn't run to Compass tyres.
I have 2,400 km of Audax booked in over the next four months, I'll try and use them 50/50 and see how I feel then.
-
It is possible that the Rohloff may be inherently less efficient than the Nexus, or (more probable IMO) it may require more "running in".
My hub has at least 70,000 miles on it, I think it's probably run in ;D
-
All good wishes as you move forward, Paul. Looking forward to the results.
Helpful to hear your bike weights also; thanks.
All the best,
Dan.
-
I used my mercury for 200km audax rides , running 28mm tyres and mudguards.
If I needed to carry items I started using the Alpkit type bike packing type saddle bag which fits behind the saddle in an aero position and took the rack off.
For touring I added additional alpkit bags for frame and stem, found them really useful.
I never really enjoyed riding in a group on this bike because of the gear changing , people following you cannot see you changing down and the way of taking the power off momentarily I was worried someone may run into the back of me, I was a lot more cautious in this scenario.
However its a great comfortable bike for audax, a normal gear set up is a bit more sporty and maybe that's what your missing.
I would think the more disc brakes that get used group riding could also cause problems at times , but that's another debate!!
If someone is feathering there brakes in a group its useful to see with your own eyes to back off some peddling slowly to avoid slowing too quickly.
I also think more oil frequent oil changes makes it more efficient , but I was never that bothered in that aspect when choosing to ride this bike , but my Thorn Sportif feels faster and makes me ride faster, so I went faster!!
Loosing some weight of the bike does help, but an efficient ( comfortable) aero position make much more difference esp over a long event. and that includes luggage considerations too.
I think the Roholf is designed for really long events/tours when reliability makes a real difference over its lack of sportiness, hence their use on Expedition bikes and commuting bikes, lots of use, high reliability and low maintenance required.
-
Thanks aggs, plenty to ponder there. I know what you mean about group riding, there's also the difference in when and where to change gear, in a group I sometimes find I'm staying in a gear because it's too much trouble for anyone else to change for a couple of hundred meters... I'll sometimes drop slightly off the back on climbs, knowing I can change gear whenever the gradient varies when those on derailleurs will find a gear they can stay in and do just that.
Time will tell
-
Sounds like you have lots of rides planned!!
I also found the Mercury better for night riding too , easy to change gears and not worry about front chain rings in the dark when your tired on an audax and forget if your in the big ring or not on the front!!
Have a fun summer!
-
On the flat, I have always found that tires and pressure of the tires are about 90 percent of the things you can change for improving bicycle speed. My experience is that weight is not much of a factor on flat terrain.
And weight really only comes into the mix when you are on hilly terrain. A heavy bike takes a lot longer to get up a hill. A heavy bike will initially accelerate down the hill faster too, but since (1) the two bikes have similar terminal velocities down hill that is mostly controlled by aerodynamics, and (2) you might spend very little time descending compared to the total time spent ascending, the heavy bike ends up losing a substantial amount of time on hilly terrain.
I have no data on this, no specific references to cite, that is just my general observation. Thus, I put little emphasis on weight on routes that are fairly flat, but worry more about weight when on hilly terrain.
Thus, a year ago when I did a two week bike tour in Southern Florida where I think I was never more than 3 meters above mean sea level (except when I crossed over water on a bridge, second photo was one of many bridges), I had no concern about weight, see first photo of my loaded Sherpa. But last month I did a van supported trip (my luggage and camping gear was hauled by vehicle for me) on very hilly terrain, so I took the lightest weight bike I had that also had gearing low enough to actually climb the hills.
-
Well three Audax in three days, 207 km, 276 km, 205 km, the first and third DIYs with camping gear, the middle one "A Ride Called Quest" plus an extra 60 km to and from my campsite. 5,350 meters climbing over the three days, so not mountainous, but not flat either and as those in the UK will know a real scorcher, well at least by UK standards.
I still have some pondering to do, I didn't give the bike much thought while riding, there were times I'd have been better off on one of my other two, the tourer would have been better with the camping gear and the Audax on the day without. Over the three days it was the right bike to use, though it'd be nice to lessen the differences.
It wasn't the only Rohloff on the organised ride, I noticed one in a group that went past, though just got a glimpse of the hub not the bike and didn't see it again, still glad to see I'm not the only one!
-
Wow, some riding.
I know how you feel.
I sold mine as I built mine as a lightweight bike and always wished I had built it a bit more heavy duty for slightly heavier loads, I had LW wheels and road caliper brakes which restricted my max tyre size , so at times the Mk 4 Tourer was the best option option, but at the time I had this in "gravel" spec so was stripped down and on more all round "slow" tyres for the off road sections and was a bit of a chore to put into Touring mode for the odd occasion, but the Mercury was not built for the camping stuff!
The Tourer will never ride as Sporty as the Mercury but its an amazing bike and so comfortable too.
So the Mercury is a good all rounder as long as the wheels/ brakes can can take the load.
A Mercury as a heavier duty build would have probably great on gravel too, esp for training rides, but I did not know this at the time and could have probably specced it to suit this use and even put a disc on the back to save wheel wear. ( 35mm minimum tyres , 40 mm even better but I was restricted by my road calipers)
I miss my Mercury now, but it was used to fund a proper gravel bike. ( non Thorn!!) Which is amazing and well worth it in that repect!
In hindsight you buy a Mercury for long term use and training rides and the boring stuff like getting fit and just getting out in the weather , relish its low maintenance and probably use in conditions that are wintery/dirty/or away from home for a while, on dirty minor roads Use it as the bike set up with lights on , mudguards and reliable tyres. Keep it and do not sell it is my advice.
The Audax set up light and fast for when your fit and for use in good weather, or for an event , for smooth tarmac and when your clock watching!
They are similar , but not quite similar!!
All bikes are good!! :)
-
OK - experiment over, I had this conversation with myself (Audax rides give one plenty of times for such things)
Is the SOMA a better Audax bike
Yes in some ways - it's around 20 min per 100 km faster and comfortable enough for it never to be an issue as long at it's on reasonable roads.
Then why aren't you using it for all the Audax rides?
Well, sometimes I need to carry camping gear or other luggage to the start and home again, I can't always be sure the roads won't be too rough, or muddy enough to clog the clearance on the guards and I can't always be bothered to spend the extra time on cleaning and maintenance.
So, how many times a year are you likely to use it?
About four
Do you have the space and inclination to keep a bike for a few rides a year?
Yes to the inclination, there's no doubt it's a great bike, but sadly no to the space.
And there's the answer, the frameset will be on it's way to a new owner this week, other bits I can't re-use are for sale, I'll use the proceeds to make the bikes I do have the best I can.
-
My Mercury isn't the lightest build, I could shave maybe 1.5 kg off it, lighter tyres and tubes (Which I'll probably do for the summer anyway) change the rack, maybe a different saddle, swap the Carradice saddlebag...
OK - the madness has started, evidenced by me quoting and talking to myself...
Invested some of the sale proceeds from the SOMA into the Mercury, sold the SS rack and bought a S/H titanium one, swapped the cheap inner tubes for some lightweight ones (Also now carrying lightweights as spares) swapped the front tyre from 35mm to 32 (Needed changing anyway) £80 spent for just under 465g off the bike, just over half a kg including the carried tubes, that's probably the best G per £ I'm going to get. Kept the front wheel off the SOMA so when I don't need the dynamo there's another 320g to be saved. Also under consideration a multi tool to replace those tools carried and I'm still pondering the rear rim, that'll probably be it for the bike, anything further either compromises the durability beyond my level of acceptance or costs a lot of £s for just a few Gs.
Looking at luggage next, probably make my own without too much regard for longevity. Then the camping kit, big saving there could be the tent, but I like the space my 2.2 kg one gives...
Aim is for bike and kit to come under 22kg and a few kg off the rider to make it a nice round 100kg.
Constructive suggestions always welcome. The discussion on how much difference it makes can be left for another time...
-
Paul, a few thoughts:
> multi-tool: I've found that most multi-tools are relatively heavy. But: Filzer make a very tidy, light & compact kit with a ratcheting handle and 6 or 8 insert bits. You can set aside the not-v-heavy rigid plastic case -- I use a Ziploc bag. Gerber also have a well-made light & compact multi-unit, with pliers, knife, etc.
> tubes: I've found that Schwalbe's XXL are light (~95 gms) and very good quality.
> tires: You may not need any just now, and we're in trade-off territory in any case. The fastest & lightest I've ever used are Compass tires. Mine are the 26 x 1.8 Naches Pass with standard casings. (There is an extra-light). I've found them fast-but-fragile. Maybe they'd suit for your Audaxes, but you might lose on the tube-changing swings whatever you gain on being quickly over the road.
> camping gear: More trade-offs here, as you probably already know, and personal preferences too. (As the saying goes, "Cheap, light, durable. Pick any two.") New-generation gear and clothing can be light, durable, and of course pricey. It's also less bulky, and that's also desirable on a bike. On tents: The best combination of weight-space-ventilation-compactness-quality which I've found is my current Tarptent Moment DW. It's also reasonably priced, at around US$300. I bought the optional nose-to-tail crossing pole, and have found it invaluable, at the cost of another 6 or 8 ounces. (This converts the tent to sorta-free-standing, and ensures that the fly doesn't sag against the mesh inner.) Doing it all again, I might buy the two optional carbon poles, instead of the standard alu -- sometimes, I find that the alu hoop pole in the centre, the main structural part of the tent, binds on the fabric channel into which you insert it to pitch the tent. Another detail point on tents: as a rule, the length of the bundle when wrapped depends on the length of the segments in the poles. That determines whether you must mount the tent on a rack, or whether you can tuck poles and fabric separately or together into your panniers or a frame bag.
> sleeping bag, mattress, etc. One variable is: how much rain do you expect? In damp conditions, a sleeping bag with the new variety of synthetic fill might be my choice over down. You do have a slightly heavier bag as a result, but the new synthetic fills are much lighter than the older ones.
> luggage: Given the notes above, and that you have a light ti rack, I'd suggest Arkel Dry-Lites (or similar) as rear panniers, and frame bags elsewhere. On handlebar bags: There's an outfit in Massachusetts, Dill Pickle Gear, which makes a lovely bar bag, but I'd have to pay at least Cdn$300 just to save a pound. Here's the link, just in case: http://www.dillpicklegear.com/store/ (http://www.dillpicklegear.com/store/) (I think I'll opt for a Ground Effect rain jacket instead--same cost/weight calculation.)
Hope that's helpful, Paul, and enjoy the continuing arithmetic ;)
Cheers, John
-
Constructive suggestions always welcome. The discussion on how much difference it makes can be left for another time...
Hi Paul!
I've found a lightweight kit I put together and described here works nicely for overnighters between my longer day rides with minimum weight and bulk:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85858#msg85858
Tent shown in this link is a Terra Nova Laser Competition 1...one of numerous variants on the original Hilleberg Akto 1 design:
https://www.terra-nova.co.uk/tents-and-spares/all-tents/laser-competition-1-tent-ss16/
Total weight including the bag itself is 6.41kg/14.1lb complete except for food, which is variable. Main weight savings comes from the single-bag approach (replacing panniers and racks) and the fairly lightweight sleeping and cooking kits. Tools are minimal (mostly a good bike-specific multitool with a spare tube and two instant and solvent-type patch kits with a mini-pump) because the bike is well proven and in good shape. Little things help save weight and bulk at minimal cost to convenience -- instead of of my larger Swiss Army knives, I take a tiny SAK Classic with a P-38 can opener on the key ring, sufficient for most needs during the intended timeframe for use. Toiletries are a small rock-type deodorant crystal, a spare contact lens and drops bottle and my travel toothbrush and travel-size toothpaste, several adhesive bandages and a small tube of antibiotic ointment. Cooking gear: Stove is a beer-can penny stove with a nesting cup set with lid, stand, windscreen and mini-lighter. That's it. A real contrast to my expedition packing list and everything in between.
Of course, everyone has their preferences for a specific use and trip -- this scheme certainly does not fit all my own needs -- but it is yet another way and something in it might prove helpful to you.
Best,
Dan.
-
Hi Paul
For a lightweight tent I use the Mini Peak II with tarp pole and a groundsheet comes in at 1900gm, the internal space can fit the bike, equipment and myself if needed - link below.
http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/shelters-1/WF126-139.html (http://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/shelters-1/WF126-139.html)
Carlos
-
Using a Terra Nova Laser here, 1kg and good for one person, was very tempted by an a secondhand Hilliberg but in reality the Terra Nova is pretty good for the amount I use it and used the money saved I recently bought a secondhand down sleeping bag of ebay . ( was actually brand new!) which saves a lot of weight, although Hilliberg are better made and vent better inside, we use a 3 man one for car camping and I have a another Terra Nova 2 man ( another ebay bargain! ) for cycle camping with the Mrs.
The old Karrimor paniers are really light (but not waterproof) one of mine has probably done over well 20,000 commuting (mainly) and camping miles, and being packed today for another camping trip, bought circa 2001, certainly had my moneys worth!
I find shoes the biggest hassle, as it nice to have proper shoes to walk in for eves. but lightweight , comfortable and not too bulky and waterproof! shoes are hard to find that meet all criteria! . Last trip just wore my cycling shoes with spds and polythene bags incase the grass was wet in the campsite!!
I have also got more confident in using battery lights , which saves weight on using the dynamo hub etc, as the run times are pretty good now , but the old habit of having a hub and lights at all times is hard to break!
Refining the camping kit is an art, a challenge and probably the place where the biggest savings can be made and could be debated forever!! Some great kit comes up on ebay , but need to be patient and wait. Its amazing how people buy stuff, do not use it much then sell it! Most lightweight kit is v. expensive.
Tend to use bike packing bags when travelling on my own and panniers for more touring type trips with the Mrs, and I tend to carry nearly everything so use the odd bikepacking bag too as well as the panniers. Sounds like you are investing the frameset money wisely. Happy Cycling
-
Thanks folks, plenty of food for thought there. I'm mulling over it, I'm immediately impressed by Dan's 6.41kg!
I'd love to try compass tyres, it's just the expense, I use the same bike to go to work Mon - Fri and can't see me either swapping tyres for the weekend or getting the benefit from them in the week...
My tent is TN Solar 2.2, I love it, it suites me perfectly, I just wish it wasn't over 2kg. I like TN, not least because the HQ is just up the road from me. I've spent a couple of night in a laser, it's not for me, couple of reasons but the deciding factor was I just don't like the canvas that close to me face (The Solar has near vertical ends) for the same reason I'm not considering the Mini Peak. A lighter tent is going to be a compromise, if I ever make that choice and there's no certainty I will, it's be for a substantial weight saving, not just a few grams, something no more than half it's weight.
I sleep very comfortable, using a down quilt (830g) the mat is an Exped Synmat UL. though it's on it's way out with faulty baffles, my third such mat to go this way. I'm open to suggestions for anything lighter than it's 600g, though I'd want reasonable insulation.
The rest is clothing and bits and pieces, I think the biggest weight saving would be the discipline to leave some of t at home!
I may reply to some more of the points made when I've had chance to look at some of the ideas, please keep them coming.
-
do you use the toggle bag to inflate the synmatt ,i never had a problem with mine not that it was used to often ::)
-
do you use the toggle bag to inflate the synmatt ,i never had a problem with mine not that it was used to often ::)
I use the schnozzel pump that came with it, is that the one you mean?
https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/sleeping-mats-c58/mat-accessories-c60/schnozzel-pumpbag-ul-p9415
I've had about 80 nights on this one, it is a very comfortable mat, easy to inflate and warm. The baffles delaminating is a well known issue with this sort of mat, not just Exped, the first of my three was a Big Agnes. It's time to try something else.
-
Had baffle go on my Exped, they have a 2 year guarantee and I got it replaced no questions asked.
Brand new for tomorrows trip so hope its going to be ok.
, although not such an issue in summer conditions Must move a bit gentler on it this time, maybe they are not made well enough?
Quilts are great for summer camping , although I made a "mistake" by getting a double one, I bought it when we hired some really light sleeping bags for a trip to France, and had the quilt as a backup on colder nights.
In hindsight I wish I got single ones , but they are good and event the double one packs small and is light at 700g, but never gone quilt only yet!!
-
Had baffle go on my Exped, they have a 2 year guarantee and I got it replaced no questions asked.
Brand new for tomorrows trip so hope its going to be ok.
, although not such an issue in summer conditions Must move a bit gentler on it this time, maybe they are not made well enough?
My current one is a warranty replacement, though it's now well over two years old. There is a problem with the design that there's no way around (I used to work with the type of HF welding techniques used, though on completely different products) it doesn't mean every one will fail, but it's no surprise to me when they do.
I've been using the quilt for around ten years, I never did find a sleeping bag I slept comfortably in, the quilt has been great. It's big enough and designed so that it can be made into a rectangular sleeping bag (Which I haven't done) or just draw the foot end into a box (Which I do in cold weather).
-
Had baffle go on my Exped, they have a 2 year guarantee and I got it replaced no questions asked.
Brand new for tomorrows trip so hope its going to be ok.
, although not such an issue in summer conditions Must move a bit gentler on it this time, maybe they are not made well enough?
My current one is a warranty replacement, though it's now well over two years old. There is a problem with the design that there's no way around (I used to work with the type of HF welding techniques used, though on completely different products) it doesn't mean every one will fail, but it's no surprise to me when they do.
I've been using the quilt for around ten years, I never did find a sleeping bag I slept comfortably in, the quilt has been great. It's big enough and designed so that it can be made into a rectangular sleeping bag (Which I haven't done) or just draw the foot end into a box (Which I do in cold weather).
PH,
What is the make/model of the quilt that you use?
-
.
I've been using the quilt for around ten years, I never did find a sleeping bag I slept comfortably in, the quilt has been great. It's big enough and designed so that it can be made into a rectangular sleeping bag (Which I haven't done) or just draw the foot end into a box (Which I do in cold weather).
PH,
What is the make/model of the quilt that you use?
It's a Jacks R Better, which I imported from the US at great expense, not a current model but around their mid price range and an extra long/wide version. I had cause to check the age this winter and I bought it in 2006 so a bit older than I thought. I've had it professionally cleaned, it's now lofting straight away like new. It did cost silly money, in the weeks between ordering it and first using it I wondered if I'd taken leave of my senses, but it's been fantastic, it transformed my camping from something I'd reluctantly do to my first choice. It's also served as a guest quilt a few times (Actually I don't trust the guests with it, so they get the house quilt and I use the camping one...)
Having said that, there is a lot more choice now, I haven't really looked at what's available just noticed that it is, if I needed another I wouldn't necessarily end up with the same one.
-
I must look into getting one. I hate sleeping bags, they are always too short and too tight for me. The ones that I've seen that would fit me better are silly money. Even when I was a kid and could fit in them better I didn't enjoy sleeping in them.
-
Which one of their current offerings would you say is closest to yours?
-
[Moved misplaced post from Rohloff board to this one, where the reply was intended. :) -- Dan.]
[/quote]
Jack'sRBetter are pretty decent bottom and top quilts but far from the best, whether one is going for high end or low end.
For example are the budget top quilts from Hammockgear. What is nice about them is that they are customizable to your preferences along several important characteristics, and very reasonably priced, starting at $139 USD. ( https://hammockgear.com/economy-burrow/ (https://hammockgear.com/economy-burrow/)
if you are into treating yourself to more luxury, such as 950 fill power down, which is fantastically light and compressible, then their deluxe lets you have a wider range of choices. Another good company is Dream Hammocks for their top quilts. One any of the better brands you can have your choice of sewn footboxes, zippered or tied, and on many the option of tie down straps for ground sleeping on a mat, so that you don't have to worry about fussing with the thing at night on cold nights. https://www.dreamhammock.com/shop.html#!/UGQ-Bandit-20º-Top-Quilt/p/116556890/category=31518105 (https://www.dreamhammock.com/shop.html#!/UGQ-Bandit-20º-Top-Quilt/p/116556890/category=31518105)
I do both tent as well as hammock camping, but find the hammock MUCH more comfortable, and I live in piney country, so never a problem finding trees to hang from. One often overlooked advantage of hammocks versus tents is how good they are for stealth camping. They hand in narrow places, and over rocks or uneven ground, where a tent just can't go. I've got four hammocks, both the bridge style and the regular and my Warbonnet Eldorado single, with netting, weighs 1lb 3.75oz, ( 0.6 kg)and with regular straps costs around $140 USD. I prefer whoopee slings myself. https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/product/eldorado/ (https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/product/eldorado/)
It's definitely a way to save on pack size, and perhaps even weight, depending on how you configure your system. Some hammocks are designed to do ground sleeping, in a pinch.
-
Which one of their current offerings would you say is closest to yours?
That's not such an easy question, I've had a look and it might be this one
https://www.jacksrbetter.com/product/hudson-river-hammock-quilt/
That's lighter than mine, which must mean less fill, but it's also box section while mine is sew through which isn't as good. The only one that's a comparable weight to mine is this top of the range one
https://www.jacksrbetter.com/product/old-rag-mtn-winter-hammock-quilt/
I think as they've developed the construction has improved needing less fill, but not having put that to the test I couldn't say how effective I think it is.
-
Jack'sRBetter are pretty decent bottom and top quilts but far from the best, whether one is going for high end or low end.
Good info Pavel, I didn't find any of those when I was searching, maybe they're newer companies, or maybe I was just rubbish at searching.
Even in the UK there's now a few options, which were not around a few years ago,
-
Yer rubbish at searching ;) . They have been around at least 12 years, probably longer.
But there are many, many good companies here stateside, which cater mostly to Hammockers, but the top quilts can be made for ground sleepers as well. That is my approach, to have gear that serves both ways.
Over the years I've had terrible luck with inflatable mattresses. The Big Agnes brand, of which I had about five, were particularly terrible. They would develop tiny pinprick holes, a thousand in a two foot areas, and from what I have no idea. They are big into hip advertising, but the quality in my experience has been terrible. I've had several Alpkit mats as well, that just leak air from the inflation valves and so I trashed two after two years, and kept on mat which doesn't hold air, for when I roll around on the ground working on my motorcycle.
I don't know if I've simply had bad luck, or what, but about six months ago, I was at REI ( a big, overpriced outdoor retailer, but with a good warranty) and the demo mat, in their OWN brand, was de-laminating between the valleys of the mattress. Sheesh.
But on the other hand, we have absolutely amazing light weight and small packing gear available nowadays, which would boggle the imagination, just a few decades ago. We live in good cycling times!
Three other good quality suppliers who have much customizing for those that have special demands, and who's products are super light and packable.
Loco Libre gear: https://www.locolibregear.com/gear.html#!/Ultralight-Quilts/c/19561052/offset=0&sort=normal (https://www.locolibregear.com/gear.html#!/Ultralight-Quilts/c/19561052/offset=0&sort=normal)
Warbonnet Outdoors: https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/topquilts/ (https://www.warbonnetoutdoors.com/topquilts/)
UGQ: https://ugqoutdoor.com/top-quilts/bandit/ (https://ugqoutdoor.com/top-quilts/bandit/)
From my experience UGQ are kind of considered among the very best among the hard core hammocking community, sort of like Thorn bikes, if the bikes weighed only a few ounces, and compressed down into a water bottle. :)
-
Five years on and I’m back asking (Myself) some of the same questions, quick recap before I do:
April 2018 I’m pondering whether the Mercury is going to suit me for Audax or whether to recommission an Audax bike. By June I’ve decided it’s not without compromise but those compromises are worth it and rode 3,500km of events that year. 2019, didn’t Audax but did quite a lot of light touring on the Mercury and more heavier touring on other bikes. Mostly solo riding for the last couple of years, for the obvious reasons. Also in that time, crashed and replaced the Mercury, so it’s now a Mk3, the tyre size has increased to 40mm and the frame is a bit heavier, bike now weights 13.85kg. I’ve also supplemented it with a Nomad, so the Mercury can be saved for lighter duties.
No touring this year, all my holidays are taken up with non-cycling plans. So, hopefully 2023 is going to be an Audax year. I’ve booked 7 rides between March and July, 200 – 400km events, 1,600km in total, I’ll see how the first couple go before committing to anything else.
I’m asking (Again, myself as much as anyone else, but all contributions welcome) how I might best set up the Mercury for this specific task. Among the things I’m considering:
Lights V’s bar bag– I have dynamo lights, but on dark lanes like to supplement them with battery lights. I also use a bar bag, but haven’t found al solution to using them together, the T bar I tried doesn’t really work for me. I could easily carry the few bits I have in the bar bag elsewhere, just lose the convenience of an easy on/off, that would also save 450g. Or try a helmet light, though it’s as expensive experiment.
Tyres – I liked the 32mm Supremes I had on in 2018, I like the 40’s even more. They are still touring tyres and I’m pondering something lighter, particularly for the longer summer rides. In 2018 I got as far as ordering 32mm Conti GP4S, but turned out they didn’t have stock. I used GP4S in the 28mm size on my previous Audax bikes, they were my favourite tyre in every regard except longevity, they wear pretty fast. Are they still likely to be the best option? Thinking big road bike tyres rather than touring. I’ve considered and rejected tubeless, just not for me.
Saddlebag – I like the traditional Carradice, but it’s a hefty lump of canvas and the buckles are a bit fiddly compared to any sort of snap fastener. I’m contemplating making something lighter, any suggestions or examples? I’m probably going to keep the Bagman it sits on, despite the weight, the bag rides nice on it and it’s a good place for a light.
Rear wheel – This wheel build pre-dates the Mercury by a few years, it’s faultless and bombproof, SJS build on a heavy Sputnik rim. I’m reluctant to touch it, but the temptation has been there for years… I could take 350g off the wheel weight, I’m going to notice that aren’t I?
Fork – I’ve toyed with the idea of a full carbon fork, the 400g saving would be nice, but the cost (With new brake, wheel and dynamo) gets prohibitive. I’m also a bit nervous how one would stand up to the life my bikes have, not so much riding (Excluding accidents) but rather the likes of train travel and being stacked up outside cafes. I’m not careless, but I don’t want to start being a precious with bikes as some I ride with, so for me Steel remains Real!
I think I’ve got my kit about right, might run through the tools and spares options on the scales, but don’t think I’ve much to gain.
Anything else? Have you come across something in the last few years that’s been a revelation?
-
Lights V’s bar bag– I have dynamo lights, but on dark lanes like to supplement them with battery lights. I also use a bar bag, but haven’t found al solution to using them together, the T bar I tried doesn’t really work for me. I could easily carry the few bits I have in the bar bag elsewhere, just lose the convenience of an easy on/off, that would also save 450g.
I put all the things I want to take off the bike for (very) short stops in a very light foldable rucksack (15 litres). Which goes in the saddlebag of one of my lightweight bikes, or on top of other stuff in one of the panniers on my other bikes. I prefer this to a handlebar bag. Something like this, but mine is 15 litres and probably weighs even less than the 145g of the 20 litre model:
https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/waterproof-foldable-backpack-20l-travel/_/R-p-309854?mc=8560419&c=PURPLE
Tyres – I liked the 32mm Supremes I had on in 2018, I like the 40’s even more. They are still touring tyres and I’m pondering something lighter, particularly for the longer summer rides. In 2018 I got as far as ordering 32mm Conti GP4S, but turned out they didn’t have stock.
My "Mercury equivalent" Raven Sport Tour has 40 mm Supremes, in the 26" size. They seem to be the sweet spot for my type of riding with this bike, more comfortable than narrower tyres on the small, not too well-maintained roads I tend to favour, and not too much speed penalty over the 32 mm Continental Grand Prix 5000 I have on my old lightweight 700C bike.
According to the Bicycle Rolling Resistance website, Continental Grand Prix 5000 are one of the tyres in 700C x 32 mm that have lowest rolling resistance. They probably won't last so long as Supremes, but might be a better choice for Audax on good road surfaces.
Saddlebag – I like the traditional Carradice, but it’s a hefty lump of canvas and the buckles are a bit fiddly compared to any sort of snap fastener. I’m contemplating making something lighter, any suggestions or examples? I’m probably going to keep the Bagman it sits on, despite the weight, the bag rides nice on it and it’s a good place for a light.
A long time ago I made a reasonably light saddlebag from medium-weight coated nylon, more or less the same size as a Carradice Camper. It served me well for about 30 years before completely falling to bits, but it wasn't so nice as the canvas Carradice saddlebag that replaced it. The two major downsides of my home-made effort were:
- Far less waterproof. Not too bad when new, but the coating on the nylon wore off fairly quickly.
- Sagging. Being more rigid, the Carradice saddlebag held it's shape better.
Rear wheel – This wheel build pre-dates the Mercury by a few years, it’s faultless and bombproof, SJS build on a heavy Sputnik rim. I’m reluctant to touch it, but the temptation has been there for years… I could take 350g off the wheel weight, I’m going to notice that aren’t I?
Yes, but probably less than changing the tyres. I have fairly lightweight Mavic 717 rims on my Raven Sport Tour, which have held up well. And even lighter Mavic Open Pro 28 hole rims on my old 700C lightweight.
Fork – I’ve toyed with the idea of a full carbon fork, the 400g saving would be nice, but the cost (With new brake, wheel and dynamo) gets prohibitive. I’m also a bit nervous how one would stand up to the life my bikes have, not so much riding (Excluding accidents) but rather the likes of train travel and being stacked up outside cafes. I’m not careless, but I don’t want to start being a precious with bikes as some I ride with, so for me Steel remains Real!
Personally, I wouldn't touch carbon for a fork. IIRC the Mercury could have a Reynolds 531 fork, or a lighter Reynolds 853 fork. If you don't have the latter it might make a slight difference.
-
Saddlebag – I like the traditional Carradice, but it’s a hefty lump of canvas and the buckles are a bit fiddly compared to any sort of snap fastener. I’m contemplating making something lighter, any suggestions or examples? I’m probably going to keep the Bagman it sits on, despite the weight, the bag rides nice on it and it’s a good place for a light.
Would this lighter Carradice saddlebag tick the right box https://spacycles.co.uk/m5b0s73p3990/CARRADICE-Bikepacking-%28Lightweight-Cordura%29-Audax-Saddlebag? It's a floppy material and I've stiffened mine with Correx (suggest to me elsewhere in this forum). Or would one of the bigger saddlepacks be suitable? I used one of these https://spacycles.co.uk/m5b0s73p48/CARRADICE-Super-C-Saddlepack on my last supported tour. It's a bit of hassle to fit and remove so I put all the contents into a suitable drybag which was easy to remove. There are also seatpacks which are a size bigger. It may be wishful thinking but I would expect these packs to have less aerodynamic drag than a saddlebag.
-
Thanks both, plenty to ponder there and I've nothing better to do as it's icy outside.
I've been looking at tyre weights and if they're accurate I'm surprised how little difference there is between GP4S and Supreme in the same 32mm size 340/380g. Those GP5000's are worth considering, I didn't know they came that wide, the weight comes down to 290g, no one seems to have stock, though I'm not in a hurry. I've also remembered I have a part worn 32mm Supreme on a spare wheel and a decent condition 28mm GP4S, I might play with putting them on back/front and get some real world numbers.
That spare wheel is a decent Open Pro/Campag hub front, so something else I could do is swap that out for the dynamo wheel for daytime rides, though annoyingly the brakes would need adjusting each time I swapped back and forth, something else that needs RW numbers to justify the effort.
I think I've decided the bar bag is coming off, I can re-locate everything except the camera into a lightweight top tube bag. I ought to leave the 550g camera at home if I'm weight counting, I bought my current phone on the basis of the camera reviews and although I don't doubt it's ability, I haven't got to grips with using it.
Thanks John for the reminder about Carradice's Audax bags, I remember when they came out but had forgotten. It's a lighter version of a bigger bag than mine, though still a 220g saving, I've put it on the possible list. I also have an Ortlieb seatpack that gets used on the folder, it has enough volume (If I'm disciplined) for a day ride, I'd have to supplement it (Stuff sack on rear rack?) on overnighters. I do find those sorts of packs more of a faff than saddlebags when it comes to getting stuff out, I can access everything in the Carradice without getting anything I don't need out. I might experiment with using it and decide if it's worth the compromise, costs nothing to do so and along with the Bagman makes a significant saving, probably 0.5kg (I don't know the Bagman weight). If that didn't work out I could swap the straps for buckles on my Carradice, accept the weight but increase the convenience. Losing the Bagman means losing a light position, I can live without a dynamo rear light for the Mercury's newer role.
Another big one is a lock, I don't carry anything on these rides that would satisfy my insurers, I try not to leave the bike out of sight, though it's sometimes inevitable, more so riding to/from the event than the event itself. I've been carrying a 600g chain, though I could take a 200g cable, it's a tough choice.
-
Could you use a carradice zipped role as a bar bag? I think they would hang ok and have a good zip and press stud fastening,probably depends on the cabling. Or you might be in the realm of bike packing bags like those that sit on the top tube, again I saw carradice do one as do many others.
Bit of an aside, but I’ve just started using a Garmin Varia rear light and radar. It’s astonishing, pairs with my wahoo and shows approaching cars very accurately. I just hang it on the saddlebag. Apparently it flashes more as cars get nearer. Doesn’t replace looking over shoulder or mirror but certainly helps.
-
Hi Paul,
Late to the party here, but I may be able to contribute some thoughts...
All of my solo 400km rides are completed within 24 hours and so this means depending on season there is more or less dark (really dark and for a long time if it is a moonless night in, say, October). Temperature and weather over the whole of the route needs to be considered and as most of mine involve going from the valley where I live up to and over mountain passes; there can be a chance of really cold nighttime temps and even the possibility of snow or freezing rain "up top" even when it is sunny and mild below. I try to equip the bike and pack for it accordingly. Also...! I try to squeeze in between 30min and 3 hours' sleep when I can depending on my running average for that 24-hour window. A lot depends on terrain and weather conditions. My last included 91kms of 5% upgrade followed by 14kms of 8% climbing before a blistering downhill timed for the dead of night as it happened. I've gone straight through without sleep but feel less hammered by the effort when I can engineer some rest breaks, so sometimes that means tossing in a lightweight self-inflating mattress and a mylar sleep-sack or looking for some hay bales to lay on at road-maintenance sites. For me, the benefits outweigh the extra weight but this is something that varies with the individual and for me, over time (i.e. I got older).
For lighting, I prefer dynamo-based as my primary lighting source with battery backup for those occasions when I simply need more light. I came whooping 'round a corner to belatedly find a rockslide in my path one time. "Belatedly" because my first notice of it was when the bike jumped and I nicked three teeth off my large chainring before going down. Of course, this stopped my forward movement and along with it, my dyno-generated lighting so the fall to the pavement was in stygian darkness and seemed to take forever before the inevitable "Ouch!". I learned that night to always start the battery lights before the sketchier sections in case my speed (suddenly) dropped too low for "bright enough" dyno lighting to see such things in advance. I used a strap-on battery pack (which I occasionally carried in a jersey pocket) and two battery lights clamped to the tops of my drop handlebars, my HB bag sitting below bar-top level thanks to a T-bar. It worked well enough for the distance-aiming I wanted for those lights and where oncoming traffic was not a consideration.
For tires, I prefer 38mm road tires if the bike and mudguards will accept them with adequate clearance. Otherwise, my narrowest preferred fallback is 32-35mm, again depending on clearance, with pressures adjusted for 15% drop under load of bike and rider. I tend to feel too much road shock and cumulative fatigue doing those same rides on 28mm tires.
Saddlebag: All my rando bikes are equipped with a rear rack and so it has worked well for me to use an expandable rack-top pack. Mine are made of Cordura nylon, have side pockets and a top that accordions upward when needed for more space.
One thing that positively transformed long-distance riding for me is the suspension seatpost. I have fitted Thudbuster ST (Short Travel) sus-posts to all my rando bikes. They don't absorb nearly the shocks my LT (Long Travel) Thudbusters do, but they surely take the "edge" off chip-seal and pavement irregularities and these were taking a greater toll on my overall endurance than I thought simply by causing more fatigue due to cumulative road shock over 24 hours' riding. Fitting tires with a larger cross-section/volume could accomplish the same end goal, but clearance quickly becomes an issue on most 700C-wheeled road bikes used for rando work. 650B opens up a lot of possibilities here because the frames are generally built with wider clearances for fatter tires fitted with mudguards. I am seriously considering using my Enduro-Allroad bike for next summer's rides as it has 26x2.0 tires and a TB LT seatpost and isn't really any slower in practice than my more rando-focused road bikes.
I generally carry food I can eat on the bike while underway and try to regulate my water intake to minimize toilet stops. Even so, like with the sleep breaks, I have taken to adding food/get off and walk-around breaks as I have grown older (63 in March) and still manage to get in under my 24-hour deadline so I'm guessing the rest and breaks haven't affected my Average Overall so much after all and likely boosted my Running Average to compensate. Running average tends to be above 25kmh, so about 23.2hours of actual riding time for 400km/248mi at that pace.
My preference is only for steel bikes and I have done enough warranty consulting for local bike shops in the past to shy away from using carbon forks myself. Sometimes my routes include gravel and it is amazing the damage a thrown rock while underway can do to a carbon fork (not to mention myriad other causes of damage, most of which appear totally innocent at the time but result in Real Problems when examined more closely). My steel rando bikes are essentially road-touring bikes, all weighing around 14.5-15kg dry and fully equipped. All have derailleur drivetrains and I usually remove the front racks for rando rides except for those occasions when two small panniers are my carry-bags for the ride. When I have done that, I sorely missed my HB bag, so it is back to the HB bag and rack-top pack combo for me.
As for what I carry...well, it is only for 24 hours (I tend to top out there, finding it less fun to go further in one go), so I carry things like energy bars I can eat while riding, dried bananas and fruit, beef or turkey jerky, and so on. I have taken a small homemade spirit stove and cup set (pictured below) for brewing hot tea or warming dehydrated soup or even my "ultralight touring setup" if I plan to do back-to-back days of, say, 300kms each. See...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12866.msg97165#msg97165 That has everything I could possibly need.
For one and don rides, I make sure my bikes start in good shape (as they always are) and then take only a spare tube, instant and vulcanizing patch kits, a spare mini-pump, tire levers, and a multitool for tools. For clothing, I generally take a longsleeve wool jersey sometimes with nylon wind-facing on the front, a wind jacket, and tights or wool arm and leg warmers, something to keep my knees warm as the temps drop with nighttime and altitude (the two usually correlate given my routes and location). Rain gear, of course: Rain jacket, helmet cover, rain pants, booties, gloves which can doube in purpose to add warmth if needed. Almost never carried in the summer months, almost always at every other time of year.
As usual for me, water is an issue and the mountain roads I ride are often alongside rivers and creeks that are inaccessible due to the way the banks are configured next to the road or because they are far below road grade. As a result, I always carry at least 3l with me and still sometimes toss in my SteriPen in case I can find a source. There really aren't stores and such where I can refill for the criticl middle part of my long rides, so this is just something I have to consider and carry to address. Those 3l amount to 3kg in water weight plus containers and holders, so that adds almost as much to my bike weight as everything else I usually carry.
Hope something in the above may prove useful to you, Paul. All support and continued encouragement on your efforts.
Best, Dan.
-
I've been looking at tyre weights and if they're accurate I'm surprised how little difference there is between GP4S and Supreme in the same 32mm size 340/380g. Those GP5000's are worth considering, I didn't know they came that wide, the weight comes down to 290g, no one seems to have stock, though I'm not in a hurry.
For me the attraction of the GP5000 was the very low rolling resistance quoted rather than the lower weight. The Bicycle Rolling Resistance website quotes 11.4 watts at 75 psi, this compares to 16.9 watts for a Supreme in the 37-622 size (data for the 32-622 size is members only). These are static tests, so might not reflect real road conditions. But subjectively, the GP5000 feel faster.
Conventional wisdom suggests that saving weight makes most difference in the wheels, so it ought to make more sense getting lighter tyres and rims rather than trying to shed weight elsewhere on the bike (the best "elsewhere" place is usually the rider).
Another big one is a lock, I don't carry anything on these rides that would satisfy my insurers, I try not to leave the bike out of sight, though it's sometimes inevitable, more so riding to/from the event than the event itself. I've been carrying a 600g chain, though I could take a 200g cable, it's a tough choice.
For Audax-style riding I don't carry a proper lock, just à very minimalist cable lock that wouldn't last 5 seconds if faced with a professional bike thief. Just a deterrent for opportunists, and even then it wouldn't slow them very much. I am also lucky to live in an area with low bike theft.
For more leisurely rides when I might want to stop for a restaurant meal I carry my (relatively) heavy U-lock.
-
For Randonneuring, I like both a handlebar bag and the Carradice Pendle.
I do not get too excited about weight, my wheels are heavier than most other riders on a brevet, they are built good enough for touring and the rear wheel was used for several tours. And I have fenders, dyno powered lighting plus a batter flasher in back. Thus, I am sure my bike is heavier than yours even when mine is derailleur. Some of the brevets in my area will start out in temps of about 5 degrees (C), thus I want enough saddlebag capacity to carry the layers that I shed, along with rain gear. I am 69 years old, I fully expect to be the last person to complete any brevets that I enter.
First photo is my rando bike. But I use a much smaller handlebar bag on a brevet. (Apologies for posting a non-Thorn photo.)
Second photo shows a skier type lock on my Nomad Mk II, it will stop an opportunist but the cable is not much stronger than a brake cable. An alternative if you do not carry a lock is to clip your helmet straps through the spokes so that a thief would have to spend some time unclipping the helmet to abscond with your bike.
Third photo is a closeup of my Carradice Pendle, how it is mounted. I use a stem and a shim to fit the stem to the 27.2 seatpost to hold the bag further back away from the seatpost so my legs do not hit the bag. This photo is on my light touring bike.
Fourth photo shows the inside of the Pendle, I use Coroplast as a stiffener. It is not attached, just loose in the bag so that the bag does not sag down. In the bag I have a water bottle, some wind pants that I have shed, and a plastic case to protect my banana from getting crushed. Since the bag is usually less than half full, the stiffener helps a lot to give it shape. But it is full on the warmest part of the day on a brevet. Spare tube is in a pocket on the Pendle, some granola bars in the other pocket.
I have nothing to add to the tire discussion.
-
Thanks for the interesting replies and the reminder not to take it too seriously. Point taken that weight off the rider is often a better option, I've had two years of more calories in than out and rectifying that is an ongoing project. Signing up for some challenging rides is in part motivation to doing that. I enjoyed reading Dan and mickeg's Randonneuring experience, is it just the British who call it Audaxing? The UK events seem a bit soft compared to Dan's description, I'm rarely that remote to worry about things like water supply.
Anyway, phase one complete - Mostly as above:
Bar bag off and top tube bag on - 470g
Carradice and bagman off, ortlieb seatpack, stuffsack and additional battery light added - 810g
Front tyres swapped from 40mm Supreme to 32mm Supreme - 90g
Toolkit reduced from 490g to 220g, this one surprised me, out of sight out of mind, I've just got in the habit of taking the same tools to ride around the block as to tour with. I've trimmed it down to cover emergencies not a full service!
If I also leave the camera at home and take the cable lock instead of the chain, that means going out the door 2.5kg lighter than it came in. If nothing else it'll be easier to carry it up the stairs!
I think I'll get some rides in with it set up like this before doing anything else, so far I haven't spent any money, or done anything that isn't easily reversible. First event is mid March, though I'll need plenty of miles between now and then. If it doesn't work out it won't be the bike, even so every little helps.
-
For me the attraction of the GP5000 was the very low rolling resistance quoted rather than the lower weight. The Bicycle Rolling Resistance website quotes 11.4 watts at 75 psi, this compares to 16.9 watts for a Supreme in the 37-622 size (data for the 32-622 size is members only).
They do sound good, I'll treat myself if they come back into stock at a reasonable price.
I've been looking at a couple of others that would likely be faster than Supremes, but not really by a significant amount, so I won't bother.
-
Inventive solution with the Pendle. I might take another look at my Camper longflap set up with this in mind. Thanks for posting.
-
I ought to leave the 550g camera at home if I'm weight counting, I bought my current phone on the basis of the camera reviews and although I don't doubt it's ability, I haven't got to grips with using it.
When I did my supported LEJOG in 2021 I started with my phone in my trouser pocket and a small proper camera in the saddlebag. I found it was so convenient to get phone from pocket, snap a photo, replace phone and get moving that after two days the camera went into the luggage carried by the van. More photos triumphed over fewer potentially better photos.
-
Rather than having two bags like MickeG, I have one bigger Carradice Camper saddlebag on my Raven Sport Tour. I also have a slightly smaller Carradice Nelson Long Flap which fits the same support and is sufficient for day rides in the summer.
The photo is from 2018. Not changed the usual luggage setup, but I have added a rack to carry rear panniers, useful for some trips. The rack is easy to remove, but so far I haven't bothered, I don't notice the extra weight.
And I now have wider tyres (42 mm Supremes), smaller chainring and Chainglider.
The saddlebag can be quickly transferred to my other "lightweight", a 1977 Woodrup frame, currently set up with 5-speed hub gears. I originally intended to keep this as a traditional derailleur bike, but I hardly ever used it since getting the Raven Sport Tour, it gets a bit more use now.
-
I found it was so convenient to get phone from pocket, snap a photo, replace phone and get moving that after two days the camera went into the luggage carried by the van. More photos triumphed over fewer potentially better photos.
I agree, though a bar bag scores highly in this regard, it's no less convenient than a pocket. For these sorts of rides it doesn't offer much other advantage, unless I'm using a mapcase, which is unlikely, the other bits that go in it will fit in pockets or TT bag. It's different on tour, I'll use it for other stuff and it doubles as a bag for time off the bike.
Though I reserve the right to change me mind ;) current thinking is a 500g bag to carry a 450g camera is something I can do without. It's not even as if my camera photos are any better than my phone ones, not for keeping memories and sharing online which is all they're used for, it's just I prefer using the camera!
-
Rather than having two bags like MickeG, I have one bigger Carradice Camper saddlebag on my Raven Sport Tour. I also have a slightly smaller Carradice Nelson Long Flap which fits the same support and is sufficient for day rides in the summer.
Up till now, I've had two bags, on two bikes, both with Bagman supports. A Pendle and the equivalent without pockets (Cadet or Junior?) I've swapped them around depending on the ride.
The old adage about nature abhorring a vacuum seems to apply to my packing, whichever I use it's always full! Maybe smaller bags with cure that, or maybe it'll prove a compromise... I am also packing a 4L stuffsack and Velcro strap to attach to the rack top, I'm hoping to limit additional clothing to this. Clothing wise I have what I need, except I could probably do with a more packable waterproof, I have a couple of decent ones, but they're not ideal for carrying on a just in case basis.
-
... I enjoyed reading Dan and mickeg's Randonneuring experience, is it just the British who call it Audaxing? ...
Living in USA, I have seen many written descriptions of ... randonneuring (or audax in UK), as ...
But, the sport is so rare here that if I refer to randonnering, some people will confuse that with off trail snow skiing (Randonee).
I am unaware of any others that refer to it as Audaxing, and this thread is the first time I have seen an ing added to the end of the word Audax. But I would not be surprised if the word Audax or Audaxing is used in Australia or New Zealand.
I usually have a rear rack on my rando bike, but I have always removed it before a brevet, as I usually have the heaviest bike there and if I had a rack I am sure it would generate some odd comments, so I remove the rack. The last brevet I did, only one other had a steel frame bike and his was completely custom, the rest of the bikes were titanium or carbon. I get enough odd looks from others by having a kickstand. I recall seeing so many titanium bikes that I commented that I should have brought my titanium bike instead. But my titanium bike is geared for loaded touring with a much lower first gear, has slower rolling 37mm tires, etc. It is lighter than my rando bike but rides slower with those tires. The rando bike has 32mm tires and a road triple crankset which I find is ideal for randonneuring in my area.
-
30 mile revision, yes thirty I haven't left any 0's off ::)
Went out for a short blast in yesterdays cool sunshine, warmed up enough after ten miles to take a mid layer off, no room in the seatpack, stuff sack out (Which required half unpacking the pack) dropped the Velcro strap (And a glove) in the mud. I'd say that was one big fail, even before considering something was rattling in it...
Worked out how light I could make a Carradice type bad with easy fittings, even accepting less durability, I can't save much the one John linked too, so have bought one of those (On offer at SJS) and will refit the Bagman (After drilling some holes in it, only kidding)
Good news is the bike was flying along, I'm sure that's because of the 2kg removed rather than that I've been riding the Nomad for months...
My 2.6kg saving is now 2.1, I think I'm going to leave it at that, at least until I've done some rides of randonnering length. Thanks for all the interesting contributions.
-
I'd say that was one big fail...
Paul! I'd say it was a grand success in terms of uncovering some problems early and near home so you can address them. I'm a BIG believer in shakedown runs and backyard camping to work the bugs out before I find myself hundreds of kms from home.
Well done, you, for getting things settled-out and making for a clearer path going forward.
Of course, would love to see photos of your "next" setup.
All good wishes and happy rides, Dan.
-
I'd say that was one big fail...
Paul! I'd say it was a grand success
Thanks Dan, I'm trying not to take this stuff too seriously. In part it's a distraction from my nervousness about the ability to get back to a level of fitness where these rides are enjoyable. I'm pretty confident about possible, but that isn't the same thing!
There might be a spanner in the works, I have the chance of a job working two weekends a month. It makes financial sense, I could drop a lot of weekday work so it'd give me more free time, but my Audax plans would be severely disrupted.
-
Paul, FWIW I think your approach is a good one. Except for outright competition, cycling should include an element of fun to be satisfying long-term. That said, randonneuring/Audax is one of the more enjoyable forms of "sportive" cycling as there is a sort of low-key competitive element and most of that is self-competition and goal-reaching. There is a "first finisher" but no "winner" in the usual sense so that takes some pressure off. Of course, some commitment is necessary if you wish to climb the ladder to meet the requirements for, say, Paris-Brest-Paris. That requires you ascend past the 400km rides to the Super-Randonneur events and that takes a chunk of training time and commitment. I think you have to also be in the headspace to do it and I am not. 400km is my upper limit as beyond that seems pointless for me compared to other forms of cycling I prefer more for enjoyment and, yes, fun. And, too, as I have progressed through Life some of my priorities have changed and I am now less driven to the extremes of accomplishment than when I was younger.
It is easy to get hung-up on the numbers/distances involved with randonneuring/Audax, but in the end it is just a long(er) bike ride than usual and you can either do it on your own (as I most often do) or as part of an organized event with others, as George (mickeg) has done.
The good news about the formal events is they tend to have pretty generous time limits so it is fairly easy to come in under the cutoff...or if you go alone, to practice hitting the mark and I'd recommend that first before formally signing-on for an event. By practicing in your own, you'll gain experience and build a mileage base for the real thing, all pressure-free. Official average speeds as determined by cutoffs move right along but aren't super-fast. As I recall, the Audax maximum time allowance for the 200km is 13 hours 30 minutes, and for the 400km is 27 hours. That's a 14.8kmh (9.19mph) average. Longer distances have even lower averages based on more generous time allowances. A 1200km super-randonneur has a 90 hour limit making for a 13.3kmh average (8.28mph). That doesn't mean one actually travels that slow when riding. What it means is it allows for rest breaks, toilet stops, food intake and, yes, naps along the way. Your average is 0 while off the bike, so any stop chips away at the average. This is one reason why I generally take food to nibble on while I ride, so I can avoid stopped time off the bike (or make it count with a refreshing nap).
On windless flats when in good condition, I can hum along in a window between 27-33.8kmh (17-21mph). Each hour I do that counts for about two hours' riding at the minimum speed, so I can build up a "cushion" that allows for stops or mishaps like unexpected repairs or naps.
I find it helps to become familiar with doing quick TSD -- Time, Speed, Distance -- calculations in the back of my mind as I ride along so I now how I'm keeping pace. Yes, my computers have Average Speed and even pacing arrows to let me know if I'm on track or need to hurry things up a bit, but I find it helpful to have some idea myself. Obvious, but I'll point it out anyway: Randonneur/Audax cutoff times are based on Average Overall including stops. Many computers only display a Running Average based on actual time and distance and go to sleep or stop recording when you stop. These tend to be more common and if you have one, be sure to keep that in mind as I once got caught out as more time had actually slipped by than I realized. An aside...I once got my hands on a rally-specific Halda Tripmaster, a mechanical rally-specific TSD calculator. Such fun! A day went by before I came up for air. It was eclipsed by the SpeedPilot I saw later. Google the names if you're interested in learning more about an essential tool that was key to classic rallying back in the day.
Dunno if it might help to share my general training strategy, but here goes...
If I take the calendar year as a start, in January I make sure I start putting in time and distance on my Fixie as I find it refines my form and builds fitness the fastest. I typically start by working up to consistent 100km ceilings, adding not distance but hills as I grow more fit. Once I hit the 100km mark with ease and regularity, I switch to my geared bikes and build in increments so I am comfortably able to do each level 10-15 times before moving up a notch. For me, comfortable increments are 113km, 150km, and then 200km. I stick at 200km pretty consistently for awhile and then find I can pop up to 250 and then 300 more easily building on that 200km base. The stretch from 300-400km is always a big one for me not so much because of the distance, more because by necessity it takes me into much more demanding terrain (unless I want to do endless loops in low-altitude farmland...okay once in awhile but boring for me after the second time around).
I try to get in my highest mileage rides between early July and late September, simply because I have an adequate training base by then to make them relatively easier and injury-free.
I sure don't do 400km rides very often because they do require an extra time commitment for training and preparation and as mentioned before, it is a LOT of riding in the dark. I don't mind night rides as part of a tour of starting early/coming into camp late, but much of my enjoyment while riding comes from the scenery and when it is really dark, that is limited to a pretty small cone of light so I don't see very much and find that disappointing and, frankly, unfulfilling for the amount of effort I'm putting in. I'd rather turn the same distance into a mini-tour of 12 hours' riding each day with an overnight in my tent midway before the turnaround or to sleep at 200 as a springboard for subsequent days' rides, as when I need to get from my home in Oregon's southern Willamette Valley to Northern California or Nevada pretty quickly. This also means I maximize daylight so I can take photos and enjoy the scenery along the way.
When you do the longer rides that go into night, it helps to have a lighted display on your navigation equipment. For awhile, I rigged a small button cell-powered LED aimed at the screen on my wired bike computer. As I recall, SIGMA made one for awhile that zip-tied to the handlebars and shone on the display when desired. If you have a Garmin-type sat-nav/computer combo, then I'd suggest placing some small squares of self-adhesive glow-in-dark tape on or by the switches to prevent fumbling for them. I did that with my Edge Touring and found it helpful. Be sure to toss in a wearable LED headlight in case you have to make repairs or fix a puncture in the dark. Cyclists generally have pretty good muscle memory for those things but it sure is faster if you can see! Also, take more spare tubes than you expect (i.e. 2-3) as it is so much faster to swap tubes than to search for and patch a hole, even if you use instant patches (but still take your patch kit!).
I'm big on cue sheets, which means I seldom need to consult a map while underway and that saves time too. Everyone has their own methods, but I adopted mine from WRC Rally (I've long been a fan) and use arrows to indicate turns and note the distances to and in between for the transit sections. It really helps me a lot and I have adopted a variation for touring internationally in unfamiliar areas. In Eastern Europe where everything was written in Cyrillics, I'd spend a few moments with my maps or GPS before bedtime or in the morning, making a cue sheet for the day. I felt it left me more time to devote to scenery and it was easy to check signs against my cue sheet to make sure I was still on track or needed to turn and if so, which way. One of my favorite randonneuring accessories is a little plastic clip with cam-action that velcros to my handlebars and securely holds my cue sheet even in stiff headwinds. Called the CueClip, it is sold here among many other places...
https://www.amazon.com/Cue-Clip-Sheet-Holder-Black/dp/B00DTVUM9Q
Of course you don't need a fancy clip; you can just jot some notes on a piece of paper and tuck it in a pocket or in your HB bag map case. If you do, be sure to use waterproof ink or a pencil and Rite In The Rain paper helps, too, as it doesn't get soggy if you need to fish it out in the pouring rain. Some links...
https://www.riteintherain.com/faqs?gclid=Cj0KCQiAt66eBhCnARIsAKf3ZNGdUcg3bXVV2X2V52pePmHnup_hC8Sjaf_PSQtbWFvwLG6e9uutoKoaAqDAEALw_wcB
...I like my Fisher Space Pen to write with, as it is waterproof, temperature stable and being pressurized, will even write upside-down or at an angle so you don't need to use care in storing it upright. See...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=fisher+space+pen&gclid=Cj0KCQiAt66eBhCnARIsAKf3ZNFsepUJEABV-TbstMX5pQlITBf5C-MHS53L8U4qEU_ZWPI5u4DAVtAaAp3aEALw_wcB&hvadid=616991222582&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9033029&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=16148862108356411025&hvtargid=kwd-105309480&hydadcr=24659_13611768&tag=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_8hqd6t77ij_e
I prefer mine with a clip so I don't lose it and the chunkier barrel sizes are easier to use with even fingerless biking gloves.
Maybe something here will be helpful, Paul. It's been fun to think about your upcoming efforts and to be asked for thoughts. I'm sure you'll do well and if you find it doesn't work this year or isn't a fun goal, no worries! There's plenty of other ways to enjoy a ride.
Best, Dan.
-
Admirable ambitions, PH, and I look forward to reports on your progress.
Under the heading of "stuff I've picked up that's impressed me" I'll offer the ultralight ratchet allen key and screwdriver set linked here:
https://swiftsports.com.au/shop/prestaratchet-multi-tool-kit-with-20-bits/
You can of course cut back the 20 bits to just the bits you need for your bike.
I've had reason to use it on rides and it's been brilliant. The biggest allen bit was a perfect fit for a loosened crank bolt and the ratchet handle supplied enough torque to get it snug. And the handle's doubling as a tyre lever proved very effective when I stopped to help a road-bike rider on narrow race rubber who had picked up a puncture.
-
Maybe something here will be helpful, Paul.
Best, Dan.
Many thanks Dan, plenty in there that's helpful and all interesting. I'm not going down the Space Pen route, though I'm glad to now know such things exist.
I've pretty much transitioned from cue sheet to GPX, mostly with a Garmin, but with the route loaded on a phone app as backup. I said I wouldn't, that I'd use GPX as a backup to the cue sheet, but there's lots of excuses for doing so - partly eyesight, mostly laziness, I've also an impression that as GPX has become so prominent, organisers might be taking less care with the written directions. I have a small LED on the helmet that covers some of the other issues and a slightly larger one that clips to a cap peak for mechanicals (Also for camping)
Your speeds on the flat are a good bit faster than mine, I rarely maintain more than 25kph for any period of time. I'm usually trying to maintain 18 -20 as an overall ave, inc stops. I have elapsed time and distance as data fields on the Garmin, for a 20 ave it's an easy calculation, i sometimes do more convoluted ones just for the fun of it. I'm pretty organised at stops, and the choice of bike means I'm not in need of a break from it, so I frequently leap-frog faster riders or drop out of groups stopping for longer. I don't enter events with plans to ride with anyone else, though It's often the case I'll fall in with others for at least a portion of the ride.
Earlier in this thread, before the pandemic, I reported on doing three 200's over three days, the same season I also did three 300's and two 400's. That's the level of fitness I'd like to get back too, I see no physical barrier to doing so, just a fair climb up from a low base. I treated 200's as a good day ride, not requiring any additional preparation and aiming to finish with the ability to do the same the next day. 300's treated with a bit of caution, trying to be well rested before but still able to ride the following day, it's probably my favorite distance, though there isn't as much choice as with 200's. 400's are a real challenge, requiring a fair bit of a build up and some planned recovery afterwards, I haven't done that many, 18 over 22 years, but each one is memorable and resulted in a glow of achievement. That's my limit, I can't go further with out a proper sleep and I'm not fast enough to factor that in, I'm envious of people who can power nap for an hour and wake up refreshed, it leaves me feeling worse than before.
I do like having that level of fitness, it isn't just about completing the events, all my favorite tours have followed years I've done a lot of them. Reading this through may look like being obsessed with it, and there's some truth in that, but for me the opposite is true on a ride. Being fit enough to climb an extra hill just to see what the view is like, or know I can ride another 50 miles if I don't like a campsite, or through the night to take advantage of a tailwind... or simply not thinking about it, it all enhances my cycling.
While sat writing this, the postman (Parcelforce) delivered my new Carradice, first impressions are positive, not jus the weight reduction, it has some handy features missing from my others.
-
Admirable ambitions, PH, and I look forward to reports on your progress.
Under the heading of "stuff I've picked up that's impressed me" I'll offer the ultralight ratchet allen key and screwdriver set linked here:
https://swiftsports.com.au/shop/prestaratchet-multi-tool-kit-with-20-bits/
Thanks Moronic, that looks great, but tools are something I already have too many of! So I've put that on my - Tools I really want, but will never buy list.
I have two multitools, the excellent Thorn one and something half the weight which has all the functions except the T20, I've been carrying the Thorn all the time, the other has now gone in this lightweight kit. I used to carry just the individual tools for my bikes, but my tools have been used more on other peoples...
Without wishing to tempt providence, I've only had one mechanical that didn't leave me more broken than the bike! That was a derailleur into the rear wheel caused by a plastic bag blowing into it, snapped mech and three spokes out, I bodged it enough to run it single speed with the wheel trued to pass the brakes, even then I only rode to the nearest railway station.
It is a tough one, the self supported ethos of these rides means being prepared, and that's very open to interpretation.
-
...
Reading this through may look like being obsessed with it, ...
I have met several randonneurs that sound like they are obsessed at first, but after talking to several, you just start to realize they are like everybody else but they have a different list of things that they enjoy. I know a gal that rode PBP three times, one of those times she DNF'd a few km from the finish where someone rear ended her and sent her to the hospital. And one of those times she did not make the time cutoff because she had fallen and had a broken leg, but she finished by pedaling with one leg. I know her well enough that I do not think she is obsessed, she just has a different list of things she enjoys.
...
https://swiftsports.com.au/shop/prestaratchet-multi-tool-kit-with-20-bits/
Thanks Moronic, that looks great, ...
Without wishing to tempt providence, I've only had one mechanical that didn't leave me more broken than the bike! That was a derailleur into the rear wheel caused by a plastic bag blowing into it, snapped mech and three spokes out, ...
I got lucky a few years ago and got the same set, but with a few less bits when it was on a great sale price. At that time I paid less than $10 USD. This is what I got:
https://www.prestacycle.com/product/prestaratchet-multi-tool-kit-ratchet-wtire-lever-handle/
If you get that, a short extension can come in really handy too.
https://www.harborfreight.com/2-78-in-magnetic-bit-holder-62692.html
I would expect that you could find something like this in the UK easier than buying it from USA.
This will come in really handy next time I travel somewhere with my S&S coupled bike, that bike needs complete disassembly and reassembly, so a ratchet will be a big time saver.
That said, for most simple things at home that only need one wrench (spanner), I usually grab a tool that does not ratchet, as the total time spent is faster if I am not sorting through which bit I need to put in the ratchet.