Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: in4 on February 20, 2018, 10:02:03 pm
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Anyone happy to give a thumbs up to sleeping mat? I'm looking for a summer use one and things appear to have moved on a bit since karrimats were the mat du jour. Thanks.
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I have a Therm-a-Rest NeoAir. It is very light and comfortable.
Mine is a few years old, but here is the product info for the current model:
https://www.thermarest.com/ca/mattresses/neoair-trekker (https://www.thermarest.com/ca/mattresses/neoair-trekker)
Good:
- light: 0.6kg
- comfortable: 2.5" / 6.3cm thick
Bad:
- somewhat pricey? (US$150-200). However, as I am getting older, I find that paying for good sleeping gear (bag, pad, etc) is worth it for a good night's sleep.
- DaveS
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There are the self inflating pads that I think are largely open cell foam encased in air tight nylon fabric. And there are air mattresses, which are much higher quality that the cheap plastic ones that I recall using as a kid to float on water.
Backpacking and canoeing I usually use a shorty self inflating pad, very light weight. I have several that were made by Thermarest. I store them fully inflated which I think makes them last essentially forever.
On a bike I usually prefer an air mattress. Slightly heavier but much more compact to store in a pannier. Since this is a bike forum, I assume that is why you are asking. So I will only elaborate on air mattresses.
I am not sure what country you are in, I am in USA where REI is a major retailer. The REI branded air mattress, Flash model (in my case the long) is my favorite. I just looked at their site because I was going to include a link to that model, but they redesigned the mattress to be completely different. So, I won't recommend it because the one they sell now under that model name is one I have never seen.
I also have a Neoair air mattress by Thermarest, I think my model is the Xlite. It is lighter than my REI Flash model but only has one valve, smaller one that you can put in your mouth but the valve being smaller takes a couple minutes more to get all the air out of it when i roll it up in the morning.
A gal I used to work with was saying that her boy friend punctured his air mattress, bought a new one and punctured that too. Then they tried to find the punctures and found they both were punctured at the same spot. Then they looked at the tent floor and found the thorn (sharp pointing thing, not the bicycle). My point is that you want to be careful with anything that holds air that you need for sleeping comfort. Do not lie out on a flat rock somewhere for a nap in the sun, etc. If you use it on the ground instead of on a fabric tent floor, I wish you luck. You probably will not puncture it if you do, but why take the risk?
I have had good luck sealing holes with Seam Grip, a seam sealer sold in USA.
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REI (the US retailer) has an article about the pros and cons of the different kinds of sleeping pads.
https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/sleeping-pads.html (https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/sleeping-pads.html)
I have both a self-inflating pad and a blow-up pad. Once inflated, they are very similar to sleep on. The main difference is in the weight and size when they are packed. The self-inflating pads are heavier and larger because of the foam inside the pad. For self-contained camping (biking or camping), the blow-up pad is my preference because it is so much smaller and lighter. For car camping or having an extra mattress around the house, the self-inflating pad is more convenient. Just unroll it, and it self-inflates in a few minutes.
If possible, go to a store and lay on the different pads to get a feel for them. What may be comfortable for me may be uncomfortable for you. Mattresses are quite personal, like bike saddles. If anything, it will give you a feel for how thick you want your sleeping pad. A thinner pad gives less padding (obviously), but is lighter. A thicker pad may be more comfortable, but heavier. I say "may" be more comfortable, because I've found that thick air mattresses (not the sleeping pad variety, but the old style blow-up air mattresses) are too bouncy for me. My blow-up pad (Therma-a-Rest NeoAir) is 2.5" thick, which is very comfortable for me.
- DaveS
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A few more data points to consider...
One factor to keep in mind on some of the premium inflatables is noise. Some are loud enough to keep you and your immediate neighbors awake at night, akin to sleeping on a bag of crisps. It can be enough of an issue to make a store tryout worthwhile.
Some of the premium inflatables contain insulation, whether synthetic or down. It is a Real Good Idea to use an inflation bag/carry sack to fill these to avoid moisture from your breath matting and flattening the insulation.
My favorite cycle-touring pad for the areas I go (3-4 season valley/mountain passes/desert) is a 1kg Nemo Tuo Standard self-inflating mattress. A tapered mummy shape, it has a cross-cored top over a solid bottom to prevent heat loss directly down through the pad. There are dual air chambers separated by a plastic membrane so even if you get a puncture in the outer chamber you can sleep through till morning. They're really good for cold weather. I've slept on exposed rock atop two stacked Nemo Tuos comfortably in temps down to -16°C/3°F. When I think temps will be down to about -11, I slide my closed-cell sit-pad under my bum beneath the mattress and this extends the range of the single pad.The bottom 1/3 is blown up stiff and firm to blunt the feel of rocks and pebbles while the top 2/3 is left soft for comfort. They fold in half before rolling so store compactly inside a pannier or can be left flat and rolled 'round a sleeping bag stuff sack to fit in a dry sack with little added bulk. I love mine (ehm, my "five") and the comfort/insulation/sleep quality are so good I don't care about the weight, but learned to my great dismay they have now been discontinued.
I liked it well enough to make the thicker "camp" version my permanent bed at home. Instead of a standards mattress and box springs/mattress, I sleep on one of these atop a 3/4in sheet of plywood on conventional bed rails with a head and footboard; the pad is covered by a thin blanket and the bed is made conventionally. Best home bed I've ever had, going on eight years now. Sadly, this model has been recently discontinued also. Like the lighter model, the camp model is also silent to sleep on.
For my ultralight "summer" pad, I like my Klymit O-Zone pretty well:
https://www.amazon.com/Klymit-Inertia-Ultralight-Sleeping-Pillow/dp/B00GK4LUXQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1519188188&sr=1-1&keywords=klymit+ozone
It is fairly thin, uninsulated, skeleton-shaped and can be used inside my sleeping bag, underneath it, or atop another pad. The idea is the sleeping bag's insulation can herniate up through the holes in the O-Zone mattress and provide some insulation, useful in a down bag where the underside fill is often fully compressed under body weight. I'd say it is useful/warm enough for me down to just above freezing depending on the bag. The attached pillow can be inflated or not or folded over the pad to provide better head support for side-sleepers. It is small. For photos and description here on the Forum, see:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85865#msg85865
It's primary appeal for me are the small packed size and light weight for use in warmer weather. I've sometimes used it inside my sleeping bag over my Nemo Tuo standard with good results in cooler weather. It is most certainly not a cold-weather air mattress.
I'd suggest weighing your requirements to get the best balance between comfort, warmth, and packed bulk/weight to meet your needs. There's no perfect pad or mat, but the one that provides the best night's sleep is worth a little compromise on weight and bulk. Lost sleep is insidious and additive and can quickly suck the fun out of a tour and leave you feeling miserable and under-performing.
All the best,
Dan.
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Thanks for the very helpful comments and suggestions everyone, much appreciated. I was leaning towards a neoair of some sort but see there are a lot of alternatives about. I found lots here: https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/sleeping-mats-c58/all-sleeping-mats-c146
I'm intending to camp during the summer season, in a tent. The Klymit range is intriguing and I do like the built in pillow. That said there are other considerations involved, not least my preference for a quiet, crisp-free sleep.
Many thanks again.
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Insulated air mattresses are the most comfortable thing I've slept on camping, indeed the only way I can be sure of getting a good nights. I'm a side sleeper and no lightweight, none of the other types stop my hips from being uncomfortable on the ground.
BUT - and it is a big but, there are problems with the construction method that leads to a fairly high failure rate, it's commonly called delamination, a quick google will show that none of them are immune from it, Exped, Thermorest, Big Agnes...
I'm on my third! Though that's over 12 years, one Big Agnes and two Exped (Replaced under warranty) all failed in a similar way. When they go the baffles holding their shape come undone, it'll usually still hold air but the shape makes it hard to sleep on, in both my failures I've managed to still use it for a few nights till the end of the tour. The other issue is that if they leak, that's it, you're basically sleeping on the ground, unlike with a foam or self inflator.
Inflation is also something to consider, my BA inflated by mouth, it was hard work at the end of the day, Exped have several inflating methods, I have the stuff sack pump and it's quick and easy.
All my touring is quite short term, never more than two weeks and more commonly 2-4 nights, I'm never likely to be more than a few hours away from a camping shop should I ever need a replacement, so I'll continue using them for the comfort advantage. If I was doing an extended tour in a more remote region, I might think again.
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Hello,
Any Thermarest will suit you, according to you available budget.
John
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Additional comments:
To clarify, I said that the self inflating pads are lighter and Dave S said heavier, but I should add that all my self inflating pads are shorty models, these only extend from head to hips. Thus these are much smaller in length and that is why my self inflating pads are lighter. I think that Dave S and I agree, a full length self inflating pad probably is heavier than an air mattress. And my self inflating pads are generally about half the thickness of most air mattresses.
One more point, a thin self inflating pad is not very soft on a hard floor or hard ground. I usually do not mind these pads on ground but I usually try to camp on grassy soil which has some cushioning. But on a floor, I will always take an air mattress.
The first pad I bought, I did lie on the pad for several minutes on the pad in the store before I bought it. Dave S made a good suggestion.
I camp with someone that has a Neo Air, and I thought it was very noisy the first few nights we shared a tent. But it took almost no time at all to get used to it. My Neo Air, I slept on it for a week in December indoors and hardly noticed the noise at all.
I mentioned above that I like my older design REI Flash air mattress best of my air mattresses. One of the advantages of it is that it is constructed of several tubes that run lengthwise. The tubes on the edges are slightly larger in diameter, that makes it easier to stay on the pad during the night instead of falling off of it as I move around. That is a feature that my Neo Air lacks.
This link is not to my older Flash model, but it shows what I am talking about when I say the edge tubes are sightly larger to hold you in the middle better.
https://www.rei.com/product/895084/rei-co-op-stratus-insulated-air-sleeping-pad
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One factor to keep in mind on some of the premium inflatables is noise. Some are loud enough to keep you and your immediate neighbors awake at night, akin to sleeping on a bag of crisps. It can be enough of an issue to make a store tryout worthwhile.
I camp with someone that has a Neo Air, and I thought it was very noisy the first few nights we shared a tent. But it took almost no time at all to get used to it. My Neo Air, I slept on it for a week in December indoors and hardly noticed the noise at all.
I put mine inside a lightweight cover (A modified sleeping bag liner) it eliminates the noise, offers a little more protection from the ground and a nicer surface to sleep on (I use a quilt rather than a sleeping bag)
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I was a huge Thermarest Pro Lite fan (which I still like) but have since discovered the Exped Downmat 7 good for down to 24 Deg C. Getting older I wanted a bit more comfort.
http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/downmat-7-m
I have used it on two three month cycle tours and its as good as new. Even in hot weather it's low temperature rating is not a problem as the down filling seems to shields you from hot as well as cold ground. Great quality and long guarantee.
Coupled with the Snozzle bag it is quick to inflate. Not noisy either.
http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/schnozzel-pumpbag-ul-l
I have read quite a few blogs where multi month or multi year cyclists have had great success with them, and any problems such as delamitation have been quickly resolved with replacements from Exped.
There are a multitude of similar models from Exped varying is weight and compacted size.
I would not use any other mat now!
P.S. I don't work for the company!
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i have Exped mat comfy but man it sure is noisy ::)
anto.
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To clarify, I said that the self inflating pads are lighter and Dave S said heavier, but I should add that all my self inflating pads are shorty models, these only extend from head to hips. Thus these are much smaller in length and that is why my self inflating pads are lighter. I think that Dave S and I agree, a full length self inflating pad probably is heavier than an air mattress.
Yes, I agree. When comparing weight, I was assuming the pads are the same size.
Which raises another point to consider: the size and shape of the pad.
- Length: regular, long, or short. I am 6" tall, and like a full-length pad, so I have a long pad. To save weight, you could get a shorter pad that only goes down to your hips (like George "mickeg" has done). Again, it is a matter of personal preference.
- Width: I find that I tend to roll off a standard-width pad, so I have a wider pad. I think it's 25" wide.
- Shape: rounded pads (shaped like mummy sleeping bags) save weight. I prefer a rectangular pad.
- Thickness: thinner is lighter, but you need to be comfortable.
So many options. :) As you can tell from my choices, I prefer a larger pad, at the expense of more weight.
As far as noise... I tried one of the Therma-a-Rest NeoAir models in the store, and it was rather loud. "Crinkly" is the word I would use. I don't remember the model, but it was a grey colour and had good thermal insulation. I ended up buying a second-hand mid-range NeoAir, which has slightly less thermal insulation, but is only barely crinkly.
- DaveS
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Long time self-inflating Thermarest user, have had about six over the past 28 years, several have eventually delaminated at the head end resulting in a large bubble, but still useable to some extent when deflated, Thermarest have replaced them without question under their lifetime warranty.
Tempted to try some of the newer lighter weight options though.
Anyone used the Sea to Summit Ultralight Insulated mat? https://www.seatosummit.co.uk/products/sleeping-mats/ultralight-insulated-mat/
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I've used the Exped downmat 7 for the last 3 years, can't say I've noticed and noise from it, very comfortable and comes with it's own pump. Would buy one again if it ever gets ruined
http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/downmat-7-m (http://www.exped.com/usa/en/product-category/mats/downmat-7-m)
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i had one of those exped down matt sold it along with all my cycling and touring gear great matt for sure, but the super light one i have (can't think of the name of it is a right noisy bugger ,id never buy another one get you barred from campsites and frighten the be jaysus of any critters if you were to wild camp ;D
anto.
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Long time self-inflating Thermarest user, have had about six over the past 28 years, several have eventually delaminated at the head end resulting in a large bubble, but still useable to some extent when deflated, Thermarest have replaced them without question under their lifetime warranty.
Tempted to try some of the newer lighter weight options though.
Anyone used the Sea to Summit Ultralight Insulated mat? https://www.seatosummit.co.uk/products/sleeping-mats/ultralight-insulated-mat/
Almost - I have the next model up - https://www.seatosummit.co.uk/products/sleeping-mats/comfort-light-insulated-mat/
Without doubt it's the most comfortable camping mat I've used. There's no contest when compared to the ultralight thermarest that preceded it - their weights are almost identical but the Sea to Summit is in a different league when it comes to comfort. Not self inflating though - but then again nor were any of the 'self inflating' thermarests I owned before although that may have been my own impatience showing. The Sea to Summit is noisier which isn't a problem if you're travelling alone but if you're sharing a tent it might be.
I have managed to puncture it once when using it outside the tent and of course had left the puncture repair kit that came with the mat at home. However a glueless bicycle tube patch saved the day and two years later is still holding.
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...a glueless bicycle tube patch saved the day and two years later is still holding.
I've also had good luck with these for sealing holes in self-inflating pads and for similar amounts of time (so far... ;) ).
Best,
Dan.
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...a glueless bicycle tube patch saved the day and two years later is still holding.
I've also had good luck with these for sealing holes in self-inflating pads and for similar amounts of time (so far... ;) ).
That makes sense. A bicycle tube and an air mattress are basically the same thing, just a different shape.
Now for my Great Idea: a device that uses the air in your bike tyres to fill up your air mattress. The air mattress has a larger volume, but the tyres have higher pressure, so the amount of air is probably close to equal. No wearing yourself out by inflating the mattress with your lungs! Let your bike do the work. In the morning, simply reverse the process to put the air back into your tyres. Since the tyres require higher pressure than what is in the mattress, some work will be required to pump the air back. I haven't figured out that part yet.
You heard it here first!
- DaveS
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Dave,
We need to have you work on perpetual motion next. I'm sure you can do it!
All the best,
Dan.
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This is my first post and my Mercury has not even arrived yet so I feel a bit of a fraud. However I have spent 40 years as a professional mountaineering instructor leading expeditions all over the world and must have spent a significant part of my life sleeping on inflatable mats. I got my first one in 1984 and have owned more than 20 over the years. My current favourite is a Neo air and I have never experienced the crackling people speak of. I must sleep soundly. Two tips are to carry self adhesive puncture repair tabs and gaffer tape and to look on the net for ways to make a pump. This can be done very easily with glue and plastic bottle tops and mine used a bit of sugru to finish. Your mat will grow mould inside from the moisture in your breath which you then breath in when you inflate it.
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Welcome, Oggi!
Looking forward to seeing photos of your forthcoming Mercury in the Forum Gallery.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan. This forum played a major part in my research into which bike to buy so thanks to all the contributors.
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Worth having a look at the ones by Alpkit,they make some excellent stuff ;https://www.alpkit.com/featured/sleeping-mats
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This is my first post and my Mercury has not even arrived yet so I feel a bit of a fraud.
You are getting a Mercury, so all is forgiven. :) Welcome to the forum!
My current favourite is a Neo air and I have never experienced the crackling people speak of.
I think the different models of the NeoAir crinkle/crackle less or more than others. I seem to remember that it was the thermal insulation that caused the noise, so models with a higher R rating were louder (but I could be wrong).
Your mat will grow mould inside from the moisture in your breath which you then breath in when you inflate it.
I like the "garbage bag" idea of inflating the mat, rather than blowing it up the hard way. Here is a YouTube video that shows how to do it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAK9ifUE8_8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAK9ifUE8_8)
You can also buy a bag made specially for that purpose:
https://www.thermarest.com/mattresses/mattress-accessories/neoair-pump-sack (https://www.thermarest.com/mattresses/mattress-accessories/neoair-pump-sack)
https://www.rei.com/product/115082/big-agnes-pumphouse-ultra (https://www.rei.com/product/115082/big-agnes-pumphouse-ultra)
- DaveS
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Thanks DaveS your tech skills are better than mine. I left it up to the forum to do the work. My Mercury will be here early summer until then I will continue to make do with Lucy.
[Downsized and rotated photo -- Dan. (...who only sees a pre-Mercury in the picture. ;)]
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Nicely set-up bike. I assume you will be setting up your Mercury in the same way?
Er, is that Lucy? I don't want to assume. :)
- DaveS
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It’s a Charge Juicer. Hence the name. It will be a starting point for the Mercury but my bikes are always a work in progress. Lucy will go to my son as I still have the MTB for shopping and local trips. Thanks for resizing Dan.
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Now for my Great Idea: a device that uses the air in your bike tyres to fill up your air mattress
Mmmm, Dave, you might want to check first with those who used to drive VW beetles which used the air in the spare tire to power (if "power" in the word I want--maybe just "operate"?) the windshield washer system. Seemed reasonable enough: tube atop valve uses the spare's air pressure to pressurize the reservoir, thus forcing the liquid onto the screen when the driver turned the knob. Um, yes, so long as the spare was primed.
I learned about the limits of the system the hard way, crossing the Burlington Beach Skyway late one wet-n-snowy December evening in the mid-70's, returning to Toronto from NY in Marcia's '68 1200 Beetle (in most other respects an exemplary vehicle -- our Italian mechanic used to say, "That year, they got everything right.") Not the place where you want to find you have an uncleanable windshield...I made it across, found a gas station, opened the hood; and I have to say, it never even occurred to me to look at the spare tire. Silly me, I thought the problem was no fluid in the reservoir.
So (he said, retrieving the "sleeping pads" thread, but only just) maybe reusable/refillable/recyclable emergency CO2 cartridges for knackered cyclists filling their pads at the end of the day?
Cheers, John
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Now for my Great Idea: a device that uses the air in your bike tyres to fill up your air mattress
..., it never even occurred to me to look at the spare tire. Silly me, I thought the problem was no fluid in the reservoir.
So (he said, retrieving the "sleeping pads" thread, but only just) maybe reusable/refillable/recyclable emergency CO2 cartridges for knackered cyclists filling their pads at the end of the day?
Cheers, John
I have a slow leak in my front right Land Rover (2003 D2) tire, I carry a foot operated pump with me.
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Worth having a look at the ones by Alpkit,they make some excellent stuff ;https://www.alpkit.com/featured/sleeping-mats
I would agree, Alpkit sell some excellent mats at a very good price. Ive used one of their light weight self inflating mats for some years and it is comfortable, warm and packs down small. Ive used it on some very cold bivi nights in snow holes as it fits inside my gortex bivi bag and have had a good nights sleep. Ive also used rather more expensive Thermarest mats too. They are bulkier and heavier but still very comfortable.
I keep my original Karimat in the garage for sentimental reasons but only use it for working under my car. The world of camping mats has moved on.
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I was in the Hathersage Akpkit shop over the w/e. A welcome respite after some quite challenging walking around Burbage Rocks; pretty much a whiteout.
The two mats that appealed to me were the Cloudbase and the Numo. Both were pretty good weight wise. The Numo was more substantial, had a ribbed-type construction and was wedge shaped. The Cloudbase was more cellular in construction and, when inflated would leave you closer to the ground than the Numo. Apparently you are less likely to roll off the Numo but that would depend upon your preferred sleeping position I think.
Here's a link
https://www.alpkit.com/explore/sleeping-mats
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The Numo wouldn't have much insulation but you could add a thin layer of closed cell foam on top. Before I gave up camping my most comfortable solution was a cheap plastic airbed from Woolworths with some 3mm Karrimat on top - bliss!
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Agreed! I still use my Karrimat from19frozentodeath!
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Therm-a-Rest NeoAir. was my choice.