Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: Repeat on January 15, 2018, 09:42:16 PM

Title: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Repeat on January 15, 2018, 09:42:16 PM
So in preparation for the arrival of my Nomad Iíve been trying to research what type of panniers to fit. There seems to be no shortage of admirers of both solutions and Iím left wondering if itís too much of a ďreligiousĒ question.I should say that at least to begin with most use will be within UK. I was looking at front and rear roller plus for the Ortlieb option and Super C for the Carradice.

From what Iíve read both would be good enough in terms of water resistance, the Carradice are larger and have the extra side pockets which is a useful feature. How do the mounting systems compare for ease of use? Any other advantages of one over the other?

Many thanks for your help.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 15, 2018, 09:52:55 PM
Happy user of Ortlieb SportPacker (smaller front, drawstring closure with cap-top) and BikePacker (larger rear, also drawstring closure with cap-top) here!

I would suggest if you go the Ortlieb route, it is a Wise Idea to fit two sets of spare hooks on the more heavily loaded rear bags. This way, you get self-storage of spares in the event of breakage or a crash and you also get a little more hassle if a thief tries a snatch-grab (the bags will remain in place unless and until the second handle/release strap is pulled. I also fit all of my bags with the stainless steel tethers intended to work with a small padlock to also discourage snatch-grab thefts while the bike is parked).

I would also recommend a second lower mounting "fin" on each bagfor added security and to use as self-storing spares. I have mine on the rear configured to catch in the "V" of the Thorn Expedition rear rack on my Nomad. This ensures the bags are held rattle-free.

The bags are extremely easy to remove -- just yank the handle and the hooks are released as the bag is lifted up. Mounting is the reverse: Pull the handle and slide the lower fin(s) behind the rack struts as you lower the hooks onto the mounting rail. Let go of the handle and the bags are mounted.

For use on rough roads, I would suggest adding cinch straps to any pannier. These ensure the load stays compressed against the rack, eliminating rattles and preventing secondary impacts from the loads inside the bags if you have to crash through deep potholes and such.

My Ortlieb "Packers" have proven reliably waterproof in all circumstances short of immersion. If you intend to immerse yours during stream crossings and such (a generally Bad Idea as that would likely also expose pedal, bottom bracket, and hub bearings to water as well as the lower frame tubes), then a wiser choice would be the Classic roll-top Ortliebs which do indeed remain water-tight even if fully submerged.

There is no exposed hardware inside Ortlieb's panniers. All nuts and such are capped with plastic covers to prevent (much) abrasion of the bag contents.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: jags on January 15, 2018, 10:16:39 PM
Dan where do you come up with all these ideas your a feckin Genius. 8) 8)

carradice look cool but i reckon there on the heavy side .
the ortlied bikepacker plus are nice sportspacker up front and ultimat 7 barbag your away in a hack.
but before you buy all that gear are you sure your going to need them .

anto.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 15, 2018, 10:21:16 PM
Of further note:

I prefer the Ortlieb drawstring and cap-top design for several reasons that might not be obvious:

1) The drawstring closure is easy to replace and won't jam like zippers or freeze shut as metal snaps can do on some other brands of bags.

2) The drawstring closure serves to vertically compress the contents, yet allows the bags to open as wide as possible when needed to carry short-term overloads in bulk -- i.e. food before you can strip it of its excess packaging.

3) The cap-tops serve as extra pockets with waterproof covers that allow very quick access without having to open the main compartments and dig inside. For example, I carry items in stuff sacks under the four bags' covers: Rain kit (jacket, hood, hat, pants, gloves, booties), medium weight fleece pullover, folding chair, wind-faced wool long-sleeved jersey.

4) All the bags include a zippered inner envelope pocket. There is an full length envelope back to this pocket and a zippered mesh outer compartment to the same envelope. I load my bags with these envelope pockets held up by one hand. Once the bag contents are loaded, I then put things in these envelopes and fold them in half so they lay atop the load, just under the dust cover beneath the drawstring. This allows easy access by simply flipping the cap-top and undoing the cordlock on the drawstring. If the envelope pockets are left to lay flush against the stiffener, then it is extremely difficult to access the contents once the bags are loaded.

5) When I have been in need of extra water, I have had no problems securely carrying an extra 1-1.5l bottle under each cap-top strap set. Very handy.

Used in this way, each bag has four compartments (main, cap-top, inner envelope, outer zippered envelope) for easy organization and access. A fifth means for carrying stuff is at the sides of the bags, under the cap-top straps (you simply need to resize them to the load).

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Pavel on January 15, 2018, 11:20:27 PM
I've long used both but have slowly sold off my Ortlieb gear, leaving only one set of sportspackers (30L total) of which I only rum one - on the left hand side up front.

There are many disadvantages of the Ortliebs I found over time, compared to the simpler more rugged and more repairable Carradice super C system.  Let me mention some of these details. 

-  Mugginess in hot humid weather.  I do not find the pvc sort of waterproofing an advantage, but a small disadvantage.  I first rode with all my stuff thrown in without the use of dry bags.  How that turned out to be a poor ideas came quickly at the first tire repair during a rain.  They were so loaded up, it was very inneficient rummaging through all my mixed it together clothes to get to the bottom where my tool kit lay.  Another time when the weather was nice, I just resorted to throwing my clothes on the grass, just to make it easy to get my tools.  I came back from that trip, got some sleep and then imediately got online and ordered some dry bags.  Now my bottoms are in a black dry bag, my tops in a red dry bag, my dirty laundry in a yellow bag and underwear and socks in a small black bag.  The tools and my extra shoes still sat on that same side on the bottom due to the weight.  I should mention the other important lesson I learned on that early trip was the importance of a dirty laundry bag.  It's amazing how one smelly shirt makes every other clean item reak, in that hot sealed Ortlieb, in North Carolina's 42 degree, two thousand percent humidity.  They are completely sealed in Ortlieb bags, no way to breathe.  Lesson quickly learned.

- inability to repair tears.  I'd not had this happen, but have read of it enough where I think it could be a major pita in an expedition sort of setting.  If the ortliebs tear or rip, and they can, then they have to be duc-taped and prayed over so as to hold out to the next bit of civilization. They then have to be replaced.  No waxed needle and thread on the road repairs possible - as is the case with Carradice Canvas.

- Plastic vs Aluminum retaining systems.  I'd only worry about this with heavy loads on rough roads or if I rode like this guy (http://www.bikewanderer.com/blog-1/) in sub zero temperatures in the dead of winter in places like Canada's arctic or montana during the worst of it.  The rode in temperatures down to minus 30 degrees.  The bottom plastic race that holds the adjustable catch mechanism broke.  New bags were needed.  I trust the aluminum race employed by Carradice much more, they are strong and robust.

I've had both the regular and the plus line and now they both come fitted with the Q.L 2.1 system.  I thought that would be a nice feature but I wound up HATING it.  The reason is that I don't want to just pull up and remove the bags.  If I remember right I had the bag hanging by only one hook on four seperate times and I almost crashed one time due to that.  It's my fault I'm sure but its so easy to do.  You hang it  a thousand times and it seems like it's properly clicked but it isn't all the way, and the next bump it's bouncing one one hook.  I've never made that mistake with the manual way of tightening the Carradice - though now they come with a new fangled system, with which I'm unfamiliar with. Of course the old fully manual clasps are available and fit right on. I like also to use three hooks on top and that is available on both brands bags.

limited adjustability without tools vs limitless adjustability with tools.  The Ortliebs have a nice tool free adjustment bar, which fits on of my racks almost perfectly and disappointingly on my other two racks.  There are discreet steps in the spacing so it's a matter of luck if I can spread the bar just the perfect length apart so that it holds perfectly.  I consider "perfect" adjustment important  because it relieves strain off of the bottom if forward and backward motion is held on the top as well.  The price paid is that one needs a Philips screwdriver and it takes longer to change it from one rack to another.  But I get it "just so" and the bag doesn't slide at all even without the bottom hooked in.  So I find that another Carradice plus.

I favor the Carradice front bar bag a bit over the Ortlieb bar bag due to a small detail.  The bottom on the Carradice is flat while the Ortliebs are rounded and when using a divider, the stuff would push dow to the middle and lift the divider up, leaving all the small items mixed up.  On the other hand the Ortiebs have a way to lock the bar bag to the quick release mechanism.  Some may find that a nice feature which the Carradice does not have, but as I've got my phone there and put the GPS in when I go eat or whenever I'm away from the bike, I always remove it and take it with me.  Both release sytems are about equal - but not at all as nice imho as that Canadian made Arkels. 

I appreciate the Carradice supper C rear panniers back separate pocket.  On the right hand side I now carry my repair kit and tools and on the right size I can put in an extra 48Oz watter bottle.  This fat watter bottle is too large to put in a regular triangle cage and fits back there as if it were made for it.  I used to carry my rolled mattres which fit as well.  Also those large straps on top, the adjustable ones they can actually have a large mat stuffed in there and I often take soaked items and snake them through in order to dry.  The details are surprisingly useful on both front and back Super C's.

- Lunch and Beer money.  The rear bike packer plus versus the Super C rear panniers are 35% more expensive.  That winds up to approximately 35 hard to find British pounds.  I don't know how many times I can chill out in a pub after a long days ride - but I do take my beer budget seriously.  You should too. 

- Lastly .... and this is important of course, here we get to support either a huge faceless, soul-less, global German mega corporation (who admittedly make some nice stuff)... or a hard working mother of possibly several young children, who is working tirelessly in a 100 year old traditional job.  She is part of a team of fine craftsmen and women.  Don't they deserve a pint too?  They, a real human being, will even sign you bag with their real name - as they toast you, their valuable customer.  Where's yer heart man?  :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrsxKYl18UU
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: bobs on January 15, 2018, 11:21:17 PM
Ortlieb every time.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Pavel on January 15, 2018, 11:21:46 PM
Of further note:

I prefer the Ortlieb drawstring and cap-top design for several reasons that might not be obvious:

1) The drawstring closure is easy to replace and won't jam like zippers or freeze shut as metal snaps can do on some other brands of bags.

2) The drawstring closure serves to vertically compress the contents, yet allows the bags to open as wide as possible when needed to carry short-term overloads in bulk -- i.e. food before you can strip it of its excess packaging.

3) The cap-tops serve as extra pockets with waterproof covers that allow very quick access without having to open the main compartments and dig inside. For example, I carry items in stuff sacks under the four bags' covers: Rain kit (jacket, hood, hat, pants, gloves, booties), medium weight fleece pullover, folding chair, wind-faced wool long-sleeved jersey.

4) All the bags include a zippered inner envelope pocket. There is an full length envelope back to this pocket and a zippered mesh outer compartment to the same envelope. I load my bags with these envelope pockets held up by one hand. Once the bag contents are loaded, I then put things in these envelopes and fold them in half so they lay atop the load, just under the dust cover beneath the drawstring. This allows easy access by simply flipping the cap-top and undoing the cordlock on the drawstring. If the envelope pockets are left to lay flush against the stiffener, then it is extremely difficult to access the contents once the bags are loaded.

5) When I have been in need of extra water, I have had no problems securely carrying an extra 1-1.5l bottle under each cap-top strap set. Very handy.

Used in this way, each bag has four compartments (main, cap-top, inner envelope, outer zippered envelope) for easy organization and access. A fifth means for carrying stuff is at the sides of the bags, under the cap-top straps (you simply need to resize them to the load).

Hope this helps.

Best,

Dan.

Dan, on the Super C ... there is a drawstring closure just the same as on the Orliebs. 
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: mickeg on January 15, 2018, 11:24:14 PM
I am not sure what the Roller Plus model is like.  I have the Frontrollers and Backrollers, classic version.  Mine are about 8 or 9 years old, I think that some of the mounting hardware may have changed since then.

I do not have the extra upper hooks that Dan cited, but I think I have some extra lower hooks somewhere.  I have heard that in a crash the lower hooks can break, but I have not crashed and suffered no breakage.

I use them on Tubus Logo rear rack, I have a couple different front racks depending on which bike I am using.

The Tubus racks I think use 10mm tubing.  I bought some clear plastic tubing that I slit lengthwise and put over the tubing where my upper hooks attach and also on some of the other tubing to prevent it from chaffing.  And electrical tape to keep that plastic tubing on the racks.  I am in USA, we use inches here, the tubing was 3/8 inch inside diameter, 1/2 inch outside diameter.  And I did not use the Ortlieb inserts in the upper hooks, the plastic tubing with a little bit of tape fit perfect.  See photo.

You can expect to wear some paint off your rack, I use black fingernail polish.  Convenient small bottle with brush built into the cap, dries fast and is reasonably durable.  The convenience is the important part, you will not touch up the paint often if it is not convenient.  But I do not take it on a tour with me, touch things up when I get home.

There are some big fans of the Carradice bags too, I just can't comment on them.  I bought some of the Carradry ones, I think the Ortliebs are better.

Second photo, I also have the Ortlieb 31 liter duffel which I think they call the rack pack.  But I only need this extra bag on a trip with a heavy load.

ADDENDUM:

In the second photo, I like to strap my rain gear on the tops of the front rollers.  That way I can get my rain gear really fast and I do not need to dig into a pannier to get it out.  And being up front where I can see it, I would see if it started to come loose.

I have a kickstand on my Nomad, but Thorn frowns on that so I am not suggesting that you use one like I did in the photo.

Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 15, 2018, 11:50:04 PM
Quote
...- inability to repair tears.  I'd not had this happen, but have read of it enough where I think it could be a major pita in an expedition sort of setting.  If the ortliebs tear or rip, and they can, then they have to be duc-taped and prayed over so as to hold out to the next bit of civilization. They then have to be replaced.  No waxed needle and thread on the road repairs possible - as is the case with Carradice Canvas...
I have quickly and easily repaired mine to full waterproofness and strength on the road (well, in my tent) and the repairs have held well and are nearly invisible after 4.5 years of further use. The trick is in technique and materials, but I take the materials (primarily Tear-Aid on the inside and a tube of Seam Grip and some pre-cut fabric patches on the outside) with me and have had no problems. The trick is matching the proper Tear-Aid formula to the particular Ortlieb material used.

The damage in the photo below was caused in one harrowing moment in Croatia. I was crossing a bridge with a loaded bus approaching from behind. Moments before he reached me, an oncoming car decided to pass another, leaving the bus no alternative but to dive for the shoulder where I happened to be at the moment. I'd have done the same, putting the lives of a busload of people ahead of a lone cyclist. I put a hand up against the side of the bus to avoid getting sucked under and the friction blistered all my fingertips and left clean tracks the length of the bus. The bottom of the right pannier was low enough on its rack to scrape on the rough concrete bridge curbing, wearing holes through the bottom as I struggled to stay upright. It was all over in a moment and thankfully with a good outcome, but I was left with a number of holes in the bottom of the bag. I made my repairs later and they've been holding since with complete waterproofness and reliability.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: mickeg on January 16, 2018, 01:05:51 AM
I got a slit in a Frontloader about five years ago, glued on a patch but I do not recall what I used for glue.

The comments above about putting damp stuff into Ortiebs is a valid concern.  If I did some sink laundry the day before and clothing not yet dry, I do not like to put it into an Ortlieb, instead often will strap it outside somewhere.  On some trips I have carried a small mesh bag for that purpose.

Tents are always damp when you take them down in the morning.  I stuff my tent into the front right pannier, use the pannier as a stuff sack.  Then put some other stuff in there that I don't mind if it gets damp, like an air mattress and a few other things.  It is not a great idea to put dry stuff in the same Ortlieb as your wet stuff.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 16, 2018, 01:59:27 AM
Quote
 It is not a great idea to put dry stuff in the same Ortlieb as your wet stuff.
<nods> Yep and agreed, George, the bags are really waterproof, so one damp item creates a cloud chamber.

I approached the problem by fitting a pair of Ortlieb's detachable folding mesh pockets to the trailing panel of my rear bags to store wet or damp stuff till it dries. The pockets are pretty good-sized and will easily hold a helmet, gloves, and glasses with room for a wind shell too for carrying or storing when not riding. I put my wet rain gear there. If it hasn't dried as I ride along, then I string it up on my little Sea to Summit clothesline when I reach camp or lodging.

It sure was humid along the length of the Danube and I had a fair amount of rain.

I think it helps that I pack my things in dry sacks inside the bags as you do. Though I take care to put only dry things inside, if moisture does get in, it at least doesn't permeate everything else.

My 1-person tent is small and rides outside atop my rear rack. On tour, I usually awaken at 04:50, so if the tent is wet with rain or dew, it may not fully dry when I hit the road at 05:15. I usually stop to make breakfast after 60-90 minutes and ~20 miles. The tent stuff sack is permeable and black in color so any moisture remaining after my pre-packaging wipe-down has pretty much dissipated by then. The tent pitches mesh inner first, so I keep it in its own dry bag inside the larger stuff sack. Poles and stakes get their own little sacks and the waterproof plastic foot print gets its own lightweight drysack. The fly is the part most likely to remain damp and gets stuffed into the larger, breathable outer sack, the other things riding in there with it. Seems to work okay. In five years of heavy use, there's no mildew, the urethane floor and fly coatings haven't peeled or lifted, and the seam tape is intact.

Before Ortliebs I used either my own handmade panniers or Kirtland TourPaks. Neither were really waterproof -- too many seams and poorly shielded zippers -- so I put my things inside plastic bags. Unfortunately, the rough roads I ride meant replacing the bags daily, sometimes twice daily as vibration caused them to wear through. Of the three options I've tried long-term, "waterproof and care" has worked best for me to date, but required a sea-change in my thinking and packing.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: mickeg on January 16, 2018, 02:43:38 AM
...
My 1-person tent is small and rides outside atop my rear rack. On tour, I usually awaken at 04:50, so if the tent is wet with rain or dew, it may not fully dry when I hit the road at 05:15.
...
I usually stop to make breakfast after 60-90 minutes and ~20 miles. ...
...
Before Ortliebs I used either my own handmade panniers or Kirtland TourPaks....

My clothesline is about 25 feet (~8m) of cord with some clothes clips.

Awaken at 4:50, on the road only 25 minutes later?  WOW.  I am sipping my first cup of coffee 25 minutes later.

Kirtland is a name I have not heard for many years. 

A side note: this past Saturday I went to a swap meet.  Someone had a pair of Cannondale Overland panniers, they were either new or very close to it for $10 USD.  They are now mine.  I have no idea if I will ever use them, but if I choose to do a short tour where I want to go extremely light they would likely get used.  I looked at an old catalog, they sold for $95 USD in 1982.

Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 16, 2018, 02:54:49 AM
*Nice*, George!  :)

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 16, 2018, 02:57:59 AM
Having gone the Ortlieb route myself, I still smile when I see Carradice bags 'cos they look so ruggedly handsome and say "Adventure!" to me.  :D

Arkels are real nice too and well worth considering as a premium brand.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: martinf on January 16, 2018, 07:18:36 AM
Until a few years ago I used home-made pannier bags (heavy grade PU coated nylon material, aluminium backplate, aluminium U section with custom slots to fit my racks instead of hooks, bungee and steel hooks for the lower fitting). These are now extremely tatty and not at all water resistant after nearly 40 years and lots of patching, so now only used on survey work or for local shopping trips, where they have the advantage of not being very attractive to thieves.

After working out the time and materials budget for making replacements I decided it was cheaper to buy new bags, so I copied Dan for my new touring bags - Ortleib with the drawcord/flap closure rather than the roller-top, which I like less.

I also copied Dan for the wire antitheft devices, double hook arrangement. And I use drybags to separate my luggage inside the panniers so that I can find things easier, and in case I damage the Ortleibs.

So far, happy with the Ortleibs. I may add external pockets to the rear panniers at some stage.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Repeat on January 16, 2018, 07:30:05 AM
Thanks for all the replies.... I need to study more later and then may come back with some follow up questions.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Danneaux on January 16, 2018, 08:16:36 AM
Quote
Until a few years ago I used home-made pannier bags (heavy grade PU coated nylon material, aluminium backplate, aluminium U section with custom slots to fit my racks instead of hooks, bungee and steel hooks for the lower fitting).
Martin, my brother! <nods> Yep, I made my own mounting hardware too. Backing plates were tempered aluminum cut from a bakery's discarded bread-cart trays. Hooks were formed from stainless and aluminum and the lower tensioning members were stainless springs covered in clear vinyl aquarium tubing. Sewed 'em up myself.
Quote
These are now extremely tatty and not at all water resistant after nearly 40 years and lots of patching, so now only used on survey work or for local shopping trips, where they have the advantage of not being very attractive to thieves.
Mine too! Mine finally got smelly from the rotting urethane coating going bad, but carried a lot for almost as long as yours. Still useful to a degree. Good on ya, Martin!
Quote
After working out the time and materials budget for making replacements I decided it was cheaper to buy new bags...
I reached the same conclusion.
Quote
I may add external pockets to the rear panniers at some stage.
Probably worth pointing out the Ortlieb accessory pockets can be added to any brand or type of bag and not just panniers but things like day-packs and dry bags also. The options include the 37cmx31cm/14.5inx12in folding mesh pockets, waterproof roll-top pockets in two sizes (the smaller ones are recommended even for rear bike panniers) and bottle cage holders. I have all three.

Once the "dock" is attached to the bag, different accessory pockets can be snapped in place or removed entirely so you can tailor them to a particular tour. They can also be worn on a belt or on a length of webbing with a quick-release buckle that can be used as a belt. The roll-top pockets are nice for forays away from camp when you want waterproof storage for a camera or for toiletries carried to a campsite washroom. A 0.75l water bottle can be carried in an Ortlieb holder this way for hiking.

One handy use for the roll-top pockets is as dry-bag storage *inside* the panniers when you have room. They have a volume of 1.8l each. When you accumulate mementos or buy extra food, 3.6l of space inside the bags can be "magically" freed by clipping the roll-top pockets and their contents outside on their brackets. If you can find a place to install them, the large roll-top waterproof pockets are 3.2l each, 6.4l the pair.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Donerol on January 16, 2018, 12:10:13 PM
I have always used Carradice, i.e. for nearly 40 years.  They are incredibly robust and long-lasting, and easily repaired if necessary - if you can't do it yourself you can send it back to Carradice and they will do it. I like their designs - pockets on the panniers - and particularly like their saddlebags, and never need to worry about packing damp stuff. Supporting home industry is a bonus, too. Over the years I've acquired quite a collection  :) .
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Pavel on January 16, 2018, 03:04:36 PM
Pointing out a slowly learned lesson from my experience, I would not worry as much about which bags to get, until I would go over in my mind, in a very detailed way, about how I'm likely to travel. 

There is the image of me - in Nepal, or the SouthWest of the USA, and there is the reality of where I normally trundle along.  Epic, heroic fiction played the major part in choice of bicycle as well as the gear.  A bit of reality mixed equal measure with experience resulted in a lot of re-buying.  :) Plus there is the personality quirk inside of me, that I tend to like the extremes rather than the sensible middle.  In every adventure, from photography, to canoeing, to cycling, I start out by daydreaming about the one.  The one bicycle, for example, that can do it all.  The one panniers system that I can do everything with and out of.  The perfect tent.  And then slowly I get grumpy about all the compromises and slowly I spend every nickel to change the gear to get narrow purpose gear.  And I seem to never learn my lesson.  :)

I started out with the awful Fuji touring bike.  That was named "squidward" because at 18KG it was as firm and steely as a squid moving forward.  That bike was going to kill me.  So I went to extremes and got the Hulk bike - the Nomad.

It was the same with Panniers.  So many details to learn about that I never anticipated from the manufacturers spec sheets.  I think everyone starts out with wanting the "best" kit, but if the op is anything remotely like many of us - brace yourself - you will need to play the field a bit (or a lot).  So in that sense, it hardly matters what you choose.  Flip a coin and choose one - it will just be the first of many.  Oh, and it's important to get the significant other on that same page.  ;D
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: PH on January 16, 2018, 03:59:02 PM
Pointing out a slowly learned lesson from my experience,
pavel makes some excellent points in both his posts, though of course different experiences will result in different conclusions and good panniers last so long and are too expensive for too much experimentation.   
For me it's never been as simple as Carradice vs Ortlieb, the big questions are what am I carrying and how shall I carry it, it's only then that I consider the luggage to make it possible.  These days the majority of my touring is done with Ortlieb front rollers on the rear, tent on top of them, stuff I might need in a Carradice saddlebag and a Vaude bar bag, so no product bias here ;)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4675/24855719177_552983f3f1.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/DSq4mn)Luggage (https://flic.kr/p/DSq4mn) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr

In the past when I've used four panniers, I've still mixed Carradice and Ortlieb

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4619/25853524958_b2fa0cccdc.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FoA5fj)loaded raven (https://flic.kr/p/FoA5fj) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr

One of the questions is what are you going to do with the odds and sods, needed for cycling but not camping?  If you put them in the pannier, then you're committed to carrying that all the time.  I don't need to open my panniers from one campsite to the next and know at any time I can drop them off and still have everything I need for a ride with me.

Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Repeat on January 16, 2018, 04:10:28 PM
Thanks to all for your replies. I particularly like Pavelís point that it really doesnít matter as that takes the pressure off. Some additional background information might help.... Iím trying to get my partner ineterested in coming along with me and part of the ďsellĒis that I will carry all her gear as well as my own. I totally get the dream thing as Iíve been fantasising about escaping on this bike for over a year now. While I have too many commitments to just do that for extended periods right now, in my head that is where I want to get to in the next 10 years. Right now though I will be limited to 2 week trips and long weekends.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Pavel on January 16, 2018, 04:41:48 PM
I like that sort of bargain Repeat.  I would still suggest, for your wife's sake that she carry a bit of luggage.  The reason is that when you stop, she can grab whatever she needs, like a change of clothes, or her laptop or phone, which can be organized by her in her own way, so that she's comfortable in using it.  It's also nice to be able to reach for a camera or put on or off sunglasses etc while on the road, without the trouble of you too co-ordinating all the time.

So perhaps a 5 liter bar bag for her sunscreen, glasses hat and gloves and maybe a mid size saddlebag on the seatpost such as a 15 ltr Nelson.  She could have a light jacket, raingear, a lock and some snacks perhaps. That way one eschews the front and rear weight and fuss of the racks but the ride for her should be a lot more comfortable.

Quite honestly, a bike kind of looks better and more fun when set up with a bit of luggage, but such a setup has no real weight penalty that can be felt. The Nelson just for an example, is only 800 grams and is so convenient. Just a thought.  :)

 My own personal preference is towards larger than necessary luggage.  Living out of and organising a bag that is to be 80 percent full is so much nicer than one that is 99 to 105% stuffed. 
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: martinf on January 16, 2018, 08:28:26 PM
For me it's never been as simple as Carradice vs Ortlieb, the big questions are what am I carrying and how shall I carry it, it's only then that I consider the luggage to make it possible.  These days the majority of my touring is done with Ortlieb front rollers on the rear, tent on top of them, stuff I might need in a Carradice saddlebag and a Vaude bar bag, so no product bias here ;)

In addition to my old home-made front and rear panniers and my "new" Ortleib panniers from 2011 I also have a couple of Carradice cotton-duck saddlebags, now quite old, so a sort of faded grey rather than the original black. Still pretty much waterproof though.

I use one of these saddlebags on day trips when I don't need too much luggage. They usually stay on my lightweight bikes (Raven Sport Tour and 1977 vintage Woodrup derailleur geared light tourer), but can also go on my utility Raven Tour as I have a total of 4 compatible brackets.

I made a PU-nylon saddlebag at roughly the same time as I made my panniers, it was never quite as satisfactory as a Carradice saddlebag but I used it heavily and it is now more or less wrecked.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: j-ms on January 16, 2018, 09:07:03 PM
Quote
part of the ďsellĒis that I will carry all her gear as well as my own

When we started out two years ago my wife only carried a handlebar bag.  Now she carries all her own gear plus some of the common stuff as well.  It surprising how quickly ones spouse can overcome the fear of extra weight.

To get back to the thread, we're happy Ortlieb users - but we do keep anything damp out of the panniers.  There is a small hole at the bottom of one of my front panniers (not sure how it happened) which I have simply closed with duct tape.  It's holding up so far (and remains waterproof) but I am sure a more permanent fix will be required later.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: mickeg on January 16, 2018, 10:08:04 PM
Thanks to all for your replies. I particularly like Pavelís point that it really doesnít matter as that takes the pressure off. Some additional background information might help.... Iím trying to get my partner ineterested in coming along with me and part of the ďsellĒis that I will carry all her gear as well as my own. I totally get the dream thing as Iíve been fantasising about escaping on this bike for over a year now. While I have too many commitments to just do that for extended periods right now, in my head that is where I want to get to in the next 10 years. Right now though I will be limited to 2 week trips and long weekends.

Maybe an extra pair of small panniers for her bike would make her feel less guilty if she is carrying some of the load, even if it is a small amount?  Or a large rack top bag or large saddle bag.  Perhaps if she carried her clothing and sleeping stuff while you carry the rest.  I think at a minimum she should carry her own rain gear and any other clothing she might want during the riding portion of the day.

If you are camping, cooking in the campsites, and carrying food and clothing and sleeping gear for two, that could be a heavy load on one bike.  At least you picked the right bike for it, the Nomad is excellent at carrying a heavy load.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Repeat on January 16, 2018, 10:21:39 PM
Yes - well the plan is not to carry everything forever for her.... just while she catches the bug. Iím hoping it doesnít take too long.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: jags on January 17, 2018, 03:37:12 PM
if she wasn't willing to haul her own gear  leave her home ;) peddling a loaded bike is hard at the best of times  without carrying someone else's gear.
you can tell her i said that  no point in you taking all the flack.

anto.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: PH on January 17, 2018, 03:46:30 PM
If you're a more able cyclist carrying a partners kit is a great idea, it makes it more likely you'll travel as far/fast for the same relative effort.
I've done it a few times, with someone who'd only ridden more than twenty miles a couple of times, used a trailer and it worked well.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Pavel on January 17, 2018, 03:56:09 PM
I absolutely think it is a very good way to get someone into the sport and benefits will be had by all. I only wish that I could entice my wife to come along with such an offer.  I'd happily haul whatever for however long.  And the daydreaming sky's the limit.  Just think having to, one day in the future ask her "don't you have enough bikes already?".  "You know N+1 is a terrible thing, dear.  "Yes, dear.  If you really need it - of course!"   :D

Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Repeat on January 17, 2018, 05:17:57 PM
Pavel - I think you need to try harder. Or maybe engineer a scenario where there is no other option.

We seem to be getting off the point of the original question..... so to put the cat among the pigeons, having considered all the advice, and particularly Pavels I thnk I am 80% decided on Carradice super C. From what I have read they are more or less as waterproof as the Ortlieb. Anything like sleeping bag or clothes I needed to be sure of keeping dry I would be storing in dry sacks anyway and the breathaility and repairability is a plus for me. Also I think they look nicer. The idea of keeping a team of people working in Lancashire isnít such a positive as Iím from Yorkshire originally  :D
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: jags on January 17, 2018, 06:07:09 PM
Carradice as cool bags right enough go for it. 8)

anto.
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: martinf on January 17, 2018, 09:20:15 PM
If you're a more able cyclist carrying a partners kit is a great idea, it makes it more likely you'll travel as far/fast for the same relative effort.
I've done it a few times, with someone who'd only ridden more than twenty miles a couple of times, used a trailer and it worked well.

I carry most of our luggage on cycling trips or holidays involving cycling with my wife. It evens up our capabilities a bit.

Works well with my Raven Tour - front and rear Ortleib panniers with 72 litres capacity, plus a 30 litre rugged stuffsack on the rear rack top if mainly cycling, or a 48 litre rucksack if doing some walking as well. Wife has a pair of medium size panniers (about 35 litre capacity) on her 26" wheel bike. That is plenty of luggage space for a week of self-catering (but not camping). If I ever need to carry more, I can fit a second pair of rear panniers on the front instead of the smaller front panniers, and the rear rack will cope with the stuffsack and the rucksack if necessary.

A bit more difficult for trips with our Brompton folders, so I have to be more severe about restricting the amount of stuff packed. I have a large front bag with about 35 litres capacity, plus the 48 litre rucksack on the Brompton's rear rack, stabilised by strapping the top of the rucksack to the saddle rails. Wife has a lightly-loaded, slightly smaller front bag with about 30 litres capacity on her Brompton. With the two Bromptons folded and bagged, that means 5 items of luggage to load into the train or boat for multi-mode trips.

Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: Repeat on January 17, 2018, 10:29:58 PM
Wow - that seems a lot On a Brompton - how does it handle with that load?
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: martinf on January 18, 2018, 07:15:55 AM
Wow - that seems a lot On a Brompton - how does it handle with that load?

Been OK so far, I reckon over the years I have done at least 1000 km with the front bag/rucksack combination on a Brompton.

But I try and restrict weight on the rear as much as possible - all the heavy stuff goes in the front bag. Brompton rate this for 10 Kg, but IME it will cope OK with up to 20 Kg. 
Title: Re: Carradice vs Ortlieb for new Nomad
Post by: sd on March 04, 2018, 12:16:31 PM
Pavel - I think you need to try harder. Or maybe engineer a scenario where there is no other option.

We seem to be getting off the point of the original question..... so to put the cat among the pigeons, having considered all the advice, and particularly Pavels I thnk I am 80% decided on Carradice super C. From what I have read they are more or less as waterproof as the Ortlieb. Anything like sleeping bag or clothes I needed to be sure of keeping dry I would be storing in dry sacks anyway and the breathaility and repairability is a plus for me. Also I think they look nicer. The idea of keeping a team of people working in Lancashire isnít such a positive as Iím from Yorkshire originally  :D
Brand new super Cs have what I think is wax on them and are 100% waterproof. I just ran the tap over them and the water beaded off. They arrived 5 minutes ago. So I haven't put them on the bike yet. They are super c shoppers. I already have super c rear ones. I apply fabsil canvas waterproofer to them. They are waterproof anyway but it stops the outsides getting wet.