Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Topic started by: sd on October 09, 2017, 09:25:27 pm
-
First which is the best one!
My Thorn Tourer will probably get a respray by Dave Yates a frame builder in Lincolnshire. He doesn't do wheel building.
So wheel will need to have a replacement dynamo hub. Any recommendations/suggestion?
I want one which will charge a phone/GPS etc.
Not sure wherever I want a back light run of the dynamo. It would be nice if I would be able to choose wherever to switch it on or not. IE a separate switch for the rear light. I always have at least two rear lights.
-
My personal preference for dynamo hubs is to go SON (http://www.nabendynamo.de/english/). I have a SON on my Surly Long Haul Trucker (http://aushiker.com/surlylht/) and have a SON 28 15 15 coming for my fat bike (http://aushiker.com/salsa-mukluk/). I also have a Shutter Precision hub which is cheaper but when I went to get one of their fat bike hubs, Kerry at http://klite.com.au who was the Australian distributor indicated he no longer distributed them due to too many issues with them. So I have gone back to a SON hub as I know them to be reliable.
In respect to lights I run Busch & Muller Luxos (https://www.bumm.de/en/products/dynamo-scheinwerfer/parent/179.html?) on my bikes but there are other options which may suit you better.
To facilitate charging you need a cache battery [or charger] or you can for example use your light if it has this facility. I have a Busch & Muller e-Werk on the Surly but it is getting a bit old now and the propriety fittings are not keeping up with the times, e.g., USB-C. I am trying out a beta charger from Kerry at KLite on my Salsa Mukluk.
-
I have SON, SP and mid to high range Shimano. They all work well and no issues so far.
Shimano are the cheapest, the models I use are the DH-3N72 with steel axle (on my utility Thorn, and the two visitor bikes) and the slightly lighter and more expensive DH-3N80 with aluminium alloy axle (on my wife's bike).
I don't need device charging capability yet, so I have B&M Cyo lamps, which have a good light output at a reasonable price.
-
Thanks. I will need to have the wheel rebuilt or should I buy it built with the hub already in? I want the grizzly rigida for rims they are a must. So I should be looking for them with the hub dynamo in. Or I should send it to a wheel builder to have it fitted? I have a suspicion I won't find it built in? An off the shelf option is unlikely. If you do otherwise please tell. I had the internet site of a wheel builder but can't find it. Anyone?
Thank you JB
-
I have SON, SP and mid to high range Shimano. They all work well and no issues so far.
Shimano are the cheapest, the models I use are the DH-3N72 with steel axle (on my utility Thorn, and the two visitor bikes) and the slightly lighter and more expensive DH-3N80 with aluminium alloy axle (on my wife's bike).
I don't need device charging capability yet, so I have B&M Cyo lamps, which have a good light output at a reasonable price.
If one is cheaper is that a reflection of the "life expectancy". I am so into minimal maintenance and that includes parts that last longest.
-
My SON has just returned from a service after at least 60,000 miles, has come back like new and ready for the same again.
I don't know if it's the best, but it's certainly good enough for me.
I recall reading that if you want it for charging, the classic model is still the best, but I can't remember the details.
Not part of your question, but on the subject of having your frame resprayed.
I've had two done in the last few years, both by reputable companies and both disappointing. It seems that since they've taken all the harmful chemicals out of paint it aint what it used to be. At the same time paint has got worse, powder coating has improved, I've seen a couple of examples recently that looked better as well as being tougher.
-
SP looks good on price and weight.
http://bicycleambulance.com/sp-dynamo-hub-pv-8-review/
And spa cycles for rebuild on wheel. Anyone know of cheaper or better option shop wise?
Thanks JB
-
My SON has just returned from a service after at least 60,000 miles, has come back like new and ready for the same again.
I don't know if it's the best, but it's certainly good enough for me.
I recall reading that if you want it for charging, the classic model is still the best, but I can't remember the details.
Not part of your question, but on the subject of having your frame resprayed.
I've had two done in the last few years, both by reputable companies and both disappointing. It seems that since they've taken all the harmful chemicals out of paint it aint what it used to be. At the same time paint has got worse, powder coating has improved, I've seen a couple of examples recently that looked better as well as being tougher.
Reference paint it will be painted in Iraqi war tank paint. We have a source. I assume with a lacquer finish. Can't remember which war. I will be putting back the transfers but adding union Jack's. Still questioning them on there methods based on what Thorn said was the correct methods. I will look at mates bike again to be sure I like the colour.
-
both disappointing. It seems that since they've take I've seen a couple of examples recently that looked better as well as being tougher.
My Santos Travelmaster has excellent paint. I can't remember any marks on it even though it had done 20,000 k before I bought it. It's even better now. A motor bike ran in to me from behind. Frame appeared all right, rode straight no handed but bike shop would not guarantee it, so got a new frame. Among other parts!
-
I have both SON and Shimano hubs. The SON will probably last longer. But the Shimano will probably last at least as long as the rim it is built into; on this reckoning you can probably buy three Shimano hub dynamos for every SON. If low maintenance is your thing, and money is no object, go for the SON. A smarter way is simply to buy a new spoked rim with hub dynamo already built-in at the annual sales when the old one wears out. You just need to know which annual sales.
A good place to shop, and to get answers to the comparative questions above because direct monetary values are given to competing hub dynamos built into various rims, is German Ebay between about Oct/Nov and through to Jan/Feb of the next year when the surplus hub dynamo wheels the big Dutch and German bicycle assemblers ordered and earlier sold off to make space for next year's models filter through to the retail discounters and come on the market.
Here's a search for a built wheel with SON hub dynamo in German, arranged from cheapest to most expensive, but not necessarily like for like:
https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=Laufrad+%2BNabendynamo+%2BSON&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=Laufrad+%2BNabendynamo+%2BSON&_sacat=0
And with a Shimano hub:
https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=Laufrad+%2BNabendynamo+%2BSON&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=Laufrad+%2BNabendynamo+%2BShimano&_sacat=0
Good luck on finding an SP gearbox, as the shorthand for spokes in German is "sp" for speichen.
Those prices are still a bit high but from now to Christmas they fall, and in January they reach near enough bottom.
You need to learn which of the Shimano hub dynamos are which, because they have some rubbish models and some good models. The DH3N72 is famous as a one-time top model, known to be excellent and long-lived) but now a pretty old design. No idea which of the others to recommend (my own is a special model for recharging the computer control on the full auto shift gearbox and active suspension on the Smover Di2 groupset never actually sold to the public, so the number will do you no good). There are some low-end model numbers for price-conscious OEMs but I have no evidence that they are necessarily worse than the Ultegra-level supposedly rebuildable models; except on this forum I've never heard of anyone actually rebuilding rather than replacing the thing, and it strikes me that at the street price of Shimano hub dynamos, rebuilding is just a waste of your time.
-
My SON has just returned from a service after at least 60,000 miles, has come back like new and ready for the same again.
I don't know if it's the best, but it's certainly good enough for me.
I recall reading that if you want it for charging, the classic model is still the best, but I can't remember the details.
Not part of your question, but on the subject of having your frame resprayed.
I've had two done in the last few years, both by reputable companies and both disappointing. It seems that since they've taken all the harmful chemicals out of paint it aint what it used to be. At the same time paint has got worse, powder coating has improved, I've seen a couple of examples recently that looked better as well as being tougher.
Reference paint it will be painted in Iraqi war tank paint. We have a source. I assume with a lacquer finish. Can't remember which war. I will be putting back the transfers but adding union Jack's. Still questioning them on there methods based on what Thorn said was the correct methods. I will look at mates bike again to be sure I like the colour.
That's likely to be a two pack polyester, much like the Imron Thorn are using and tough :)
-
SP looks good on price and weight
Tom Norton, who posts from time to time, had to replace the SP hub on his wife's touring bike mid-way across N America this past summer -- the bearings conked out after about 3000+ kms. So far as I know, the new hub got them home to Ohio (via Ottawa, Montréal, and upstate New York.)
The good news is that (i) SP gave them a new dyno-hub, no charge, and shipped it to the place they were staying in Minnesota; and (ii) Tom was able to rebuild the wheel in a local bike shop.
So yes, good on price and weight, and it appears, customer service. Reliability? I don't know. I have seen reports on crazyguy suggesting that the SP is reliable. OTOH, I believe its warranty period is two years, vs five for the SON.
Going back to Andre's suggestion: If 'twere me, I'd look for a built-up wheel with a SON28 hub, via an online supplier in Germany.
-
A smarter way is simply to buy a new spoked rim with hub dynamo already built-in at the annual sales when the old one wears out. You just need to know which annual sales.
Last time I got a hub dynamo a ready built wheel from my LBS with a DH3N72 was cheaper than buying the hub alone. Rim was a fairly wide Alex model, perhaps not the best but sufficient for the use on one of my visitor bikes. LBS sourced the wheel from Germany.
-
A smarter way is simply to buy a new spoked rim with hub dynamo already built-in at the annual sales when the old one wears out. You just need to know which annual sales.
Last time I got a hub dynamo a ready built wheel from my LBS with a DH3N72 was cheaper than buying the hub alone. Rim was a fairly wide Alex model, perhaps not the best but sufficient for the use on one of my visitor bikes. LBS sourced the wheel from Germany.
I want to go with a ready build BUT must have grizzly rigida rims not prepared to compromise on the rims. Is it possible I could get a ready build with them?
-
I want to go with a ready build BUT must have grizzly rigida rims not prepared to compromise on the rims. Is it possible I could get a ready build with them?
Unlikely. Best bet for a wheel with Grizzly rims would be to get it built by a retailer that deals in Grizzly rim, like SJS cycles.
In my experience, wheels buit by SJS cycles are very good.
-
going to cost for a custom wheel but if it's well built it will last donkey years. ;)
anto
-
A smarter way is simply to buy a new spoked rim with hub dynamo already built-in at the annual sales when the old one wears out. You just need to know which annual sales.
Last time I got a hub dynamo a ready built wheel from my LBS with a DH3N72 was cheaper than buying the hub alone. Rim was a fairly wide Alex model, perhaps not the best but sufficient for the use on one of my visitor bikes. LBS sourced the wheel from Germany.
I want to go with a ready build BUT must have grizzly rigida rims not prepared to compromise on the rims. Is it possible I could get a ready build with them?
That's likely to be an expensive barrier because what we're talking about in these sales are the surplus wheels of the mid-level mass-market assemblers. Some of the really top baukasten (semi-custom houses) may have Grizzly rims as an option, but they're not the people who sell off surplus wheels.
My own opinion after much expensive experience is that if you've decided on a certain component as non-negotiable, any lesser component will never satisfy -- and you end up buying twice or becoming bitter because the particular component you were convinced is better than anything else in that line has gone out of production in the meantime. (I especially suspect the Germans of withdrawing really good bicycle components and replacing them with "improved" versions that are simply ruined, merely to irritate me.)
On the other hand, I learned about wheel building by fixing wheels that came from Gazelle in a deplorable state on one of their premium bikes and needed attention so often that my riding companions got used to me taking out the nipple spanner at almost every rest stop. Whereas a set of wheels I have that Keith Bontrager built for a prototype Trek have never had a spanner on them despite considerable abuse, and a set of wheels built by Utopia, which I ride at speed through potholes that would swallow a smaller bike, are in their tenth year without a spanner on them, drum-tight and perfectly round. (Short version in previous post by Anto...) Good wheels are built by known-good people. Cheap wheels off the internet may be good, or they may have been built by the all-thumbs hungover clown who built the wheels on my Gazelle; you proceed on the perfectly safe assumption that the majority of the wheels put on the market by reputable manufacturers will be good. This kind of bargain is further improved, or made at all possible, by the tacit assumption on this forum that, if you get unlucky, you know how to fix a wheel that isn't blueprinted, or that you will ask for the advice generously available.
If you're going to order wheels built by SJS, as Martin suggests, it might be well to do it sooner rather than later, so as not to get caught up in the Christmas queue*. I seem to remember that Dave from the Workshop mentioned last year or the year before that the orders pick up around Christmas.
*For our American friends, a queue is British English for a waiting line, not a bullfighter's badge of office.
-
a queue is British English for a waiting line
Ummmm...cue the bad puns, eh?
-
Cheap wheels off the internet may be good, or they may have been built by the all-thumbs hungover clown who built the wheels on my Gazelle; you proceed on the perfectly safe assumption that the majority of the wheels put on the market by reputable manufacturers will be good. This kind of bargain is further improved, or made at all possible, by the tacit assumption on this forum that, if you get unlucky, you know how to fix a wheel that isn't blueprinted, or that you will ask for the advice generously available.
I generally build my own wheels, and I always check any ready-made wheel that comes my way. The DH3N72 dynohub wheel I bought was reasonably well built and perfectly rideable when I got it, but I spent about 20 minutes on my wheel jig tightening spokes and tweaking till I was satisfied.
The SJS-built wheels that came on my Raven Tour and the Rohloff wheel I ordered from SJS for my RST build also went into the wheel jig before I rode them. None of them needed any tweaking at all, so I assume their wheel builder is pretty good.
-
I generally build my own wheels, and I always check any ready-made wheel that comes my way. The DH3N72 dynohub wheel I bought was reasonably well built and perfectly rideable when I got it, but I spent about 20 minutes on my wheel jig tightening spokes and tweaking till I was satisfied.
The SJS-built wheels that came on my Raven Tour and the Rohloff wheel I ordered from SJS for my RST build also went into the wheel jig before I rode them. None of them needed any tweaking at all, so I assume their wheel builder is pretty good.
Yes, that about matches my experience. I don't even have a wheel jig. Instead I spread a towel to protect the saddle leather when I turn the bike upside down and use the fork as a wheel jig.
When I was new and ignorant, I was fortunate to have the advice of genuine wheel experts like Sheldon Brown and Jobst Brandt (author of The Bicycle Wheel), great guys for proceeding with the minimum of tools and the maximum of common sense. As long as wheels arrive at least well-enough built to be rideable, and you're patient enough to proceed by one-eighth turns on the nipple spanner, the road can be your laboratory, and in a couple of weeks your wheels will feel right under you.
I admire cyclists who build their own wheels from scratch.
-
The comment above about the SP (also known as Shutter Precision) failiing in mid N America is the only one I have heard of that failed. I saw that on another forum that it failed on his wife's bike. If I recall, it kept rolling with bad bearings, thus it was rideable while they were seeking help. Thus, not a catastrophic failure.
I have had good luck with my SP PV-8 that I bought in spring 2013 for my Nomad, bought another this past spring for my new Titanium bike.
I bought a used Shimano that appears to have more drag than the SP when I spin the wheel by hand, but when riding I can not feel any drag on either the Shimano or SP.
The Shimano might have user replaceable bearings, the SP are not. If you were going to far off places with limited support, that could be an issue that might favor the Shimano.
The SP has very close flanges, if you were doing serious mountain biking you might want to use a few more spokes on a wheel if you use that hub. I have a 36 spoke SP on my Nomad which sees some off road rough duty, a 32 spoke SP on my Titanium bike which is primarily used on the road.
I build all my own wheels, I cannot comment on availability of a pre-built wheel or not.
If you are not used to dynohubs, the first time you try to turn the axle you will find it feels notchey and stiff. They are supposed to, so do not assume it has a problem. A few people have commented that they can feel a vibration on the handlebars from the hub, I have not noticed it on four different bikes that I have used mine on.
I use a bolt on skewer instead of a quick release when touring to reduce theft, dynohubs do not come with a skewer. I think this is the one on my Titanium bike.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/black-schmidt-allen-key-fitting-front-skewer-for-schmidt-dynohub-for-100mm-oln-hubs/
-
Another thought on dynohubs - for a touring bike or a commuter I prefer hubs with steel axles. The old model SONs have steel axles, I specified a SON Klassik on my 2011 Raven Tour for that reason. If buying now I would probably choose the cheaper DH3N72.
A lot of the high-end dynohubs come with aluminium alloy axles to save weight. This is the case for one of my SON dynohubs and the DH3N80, they are respectively on my RST, which I use on good roads, and on my wife's bike, which is used much more gently than my bikes, and probably also my SP dynohub, but that is on a Brompton, with much less choice possible becaus of the narrow front fork.
If they do fail, SON and SP do not seem to be user-serviceable. One of the cup and cone bearings on the DH3N80 and DH3N72 hubs is easy to access, as I have not yet had any issues I haven't tried opening the other side, but it looks as if it might be possible to do DIY work.
-
I want to go with a ready build BUT must have grizzly rigida rims not prepared to compromise on the rims. Is it possible I could get a ready build with them?
Unlikely. Best bet for a wheel with Grizzly rims would be to get it built by a retailer that deals in Grizzly rim, like SJS cycles.
In my experienced, wheels buit by SJS cycles are very good.
Nice one I will try that. Is there a market for second hand grizzly!?
-
I do have a dynamo on my kalkhoff power assist but it keeps failing because the earth is fauty. it appears to have been glued on .I have to giggle it about to get it working. No idea of the model. Only adequate light for slow cycling. So I always have another one on. A hope with 4 AA 2nd generation batterys. Or a Trailtech with a ludicrously large battery which gives me about 8 hours of extraordinary bright light. As it is power assist I should really stick with that.
-
From SJS
"Hi there,
The cost of the wheel build will be the same regardless as to whether or not you supply the rim or not, so by sending in your rim you would only save the cost of a new rim.
If you’re after the best dynamo hub option especially in regards to long life then the SON would definitely be the option to go for. These come with a 5 year guarantee and can still be repaired after this time whereas most other hubs only have a 2 year guarantee and if they go wrong outside of that they can’t be repaired so have to be replaced.
I hope this helps."
No price though. Would it be easy to flog the other wheel?
-
... The cost of the wheel build will be the same regardless as to whether or not you supply the rim or not ...
... No price though ...
The SJS website shows the costs of building different types of wheels, so presumably your cost would be one of these costs.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?term=wheel build labour (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?term=wheel build labour)
- DaveS
-
"Hi,
The only light we have with a charging device built in is the Busch and Muller Luxos U:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/lighting/busch-muller-lumotec-iq2-luxos-u-senso-headlight-for-hub-dynamos/
Otherwise you’ll need to run a light and separate USB charging device:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/dynamos-charging-devices/ "
I have got to admit they are very helpful (SJS) Alas I am a little confused! The Busch and Muller looks brilliant although a touch expensive!! More importantly made of plastic. I know most are but metal can't add that much weight. I think the odds of me breaking it are a little to high. Any one have an up to date made more robustly?
-
I haven't done any price comparisons yet but the Sinewave Beacon (https://www.sinewavecycles.com/products/sinewave-cycles-beacon) might be another option ... light and charging built in. A bit more of a discussion about it in Ron's post on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/groups/474293339288710/permalink/1592122570839109/).
(https://scontent.fper2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/22687791_1604756099587645_663160214816026212_n.jpg?oh=5cb7dc6f22bf143dea58f42b7edc7fbe&oe=5A6BD3DF)
-
I have the Luxos U on the bike I built up this past spring. First photo shows the light. Some people complain that it is quite large, but I think it is just fine. The headtube on this particular frame is very large too, so the light might look bigger on a different bike. Some people have complained about waterproofing issues on this light. If I was going to ride all day in the rain, I might be tempted to put a plastic bag over it. Or if it was sitting outside during the night, might put plastic bag over it.
The second photo is of my Nomad, that has the AXA Luxx 70 Plus which has the USB charger in the mount. I started this thread before I bought the Luxx 70 Plus. I am not very happy with the waterproofing (or lack of it) for the USB circuitry.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11153.0
I found after I bought a new GPS this past winter, the Luxx 70 Plus which does not have a cache battery refuses to charge the batteries in my new GPS. Not sure why, but some devices play well only with chargers that have a cache battery. The Luxos U has such a battery and it charges my GPS just fine which is why I picked that particular light.
Both of these lights have asymmetric beams that are designed for cycling and do not blind oncoming traffic (if you aimed them right) and they have a beam that spreads out a bit to the side. I think the Sinewave cited above has a symetric beam. I prefer the asymmetric beam.
I have a Sinewave Revolution USB charger. It works very well but it does not have a cache battery. It is possibly the most waterproof of all of the chargers out there, I bought it for my Iceland trip where I expected frequent rain.
Plastic vs metal, I do not see any problem with plastic lights. There is an expensive metal light out there, I think Schmidt makes it but I have only seen photos of it.
The mount for my Luxos U was bent quite a bit by me with some tools that had a lot of leverage, thus do not assume you can buy a mount just like the one in the photo. To get the light to work well with my V brakes, I needed to do some major adjustment to my mount.