Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: ají on December 19, 2016, 05:17:37 am
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Hi all,
ive seen a few old posts on this topic, so i thought i might reboot it.
has anyone had this problem? every down pedal (particularly LHS) a click, click, click, especially when applying more force (eg standing up).
ive swapped over the pedals, cleaned out the S&S, changed the cartridge, tightened, cleaned regreased just about everything, but still clicking.
im riding a 2015 nomad.
i'd appreciate any feedback/thoughts!
Andrew
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Bicycle sounds can telegraph, Andrew. My suggestion would be to next check the seatpost collar bolt and the saddle clamp bolt. If those don't fix it, then -- if you're running a Brooks saddle -- check the saddle rivets and nosepiece for creaks. If that is the culprit, then a small spot of oil on the underside of the rivet can do the trick.
I suggest the saddle/seatpost to you despite the noise continuing when you stand because on mine, it was my inner thigh brushing against the saddle when standing that propagated the noise. I had thought sure it was caused by something down below...BB, chainring sleeve bolts, pedals, cleats, etc.
Hope this helps. Such noises can be maddening!
All the best,
Dan.
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thanks Dan,
i've checked all those, i should stress its a definite click as opposed to a creak.
I can recreate the noise when stationary by pressing my foot down on the left pedal, the click happens as i take the pressure off.
I removed the Eccentric screws and noticed play in the EBB when rocking the crank up and down by hand, but not sideways (has anyone else with an EBB noticed this, or do your EBBs fit perfectly snug when screws loosened?). tighten the screws on mine, and no movement. obviously the foot with the body behind it can exert more force than the hand.
cheers,
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Andrew,
I've been searching my memory and found my notes on a similar problem with my tandem's eccentric. I finally solved it by coating the contact surfaces with Honda Pro-Link Moly 60 paste, a grease with a high molybdenum-disulfide content. Problem solved.
It seemed the noise might have been caused by microfretting between the eccentric insert and some portion of the BB shell or grub screws. I never found exactly where, only that a change in grease solved it. It's been 24 years since I used the Moly 60 and the noise never returned. Same pedals, BB cartridge insert, cranks, chainrings, etc.
It also worked very nicely on clutch throwout bearings when I had my own Honda car repair business back in the day, back in another life as I was earning money for Uni.
Might be worth a try.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
interesting, how does that stuff work? Loctite has also been suggested to me as well.
Im figuring that the EBB shell or probably less likely the EBB itself are misshapen, oval rather than circular.
another suggestion has been to insert shims in the shell. but the difficulty here is that the EBB is rather tricky to insert, so even the thinnest extra layer there could be difficult to put in.
cheers
Andrew
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i had the exact same problem on my road bike Look kx light.i completely stripped the bike regreased everything , took her for a test ride still click click click ended up it was the bottom bracket cups outer bearings .
jags
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did you replace the bearings jags? my bottom bracket cartridge shimano UN55 was the first thing i replaced alas the clicking continues...
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Hi,
You are doing all the right things in trying to narrow the noise down. My guess would be either the cranks (remove grease, replace) chain ring bolts or possibly some movement on the EBB if the bolts aren't tight enough or have created a groove. I've had all three at one time or another. I've just started to noticing a click under load again which I am pretty certain will be the crank. Good luck!
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yep, these are some of the things on my list. this wednesday I'll try another 175 crank. funny enough i just tightened the EBB bolts and clicking continued.
does anyone know if the EBB should rock about in the shell when the bolts are loose?
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nothing to rock aji except the pilot of course 8)
i had to get the bottom bracket shell faced but your system is different id safely say you bottom bracket if at fault .if you have cleats in your shoes check them also.
man it can be a right pain trying to figure out a noise but im putting my money on the BB .
jags.
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Aye too true jags, too true. no cleats, ratcages.
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be sure to let us know if you get it sorted have fun. ;)
jags.
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Twice on my Nomad I had a clicking bottom bracket area sound that really infuriated me with how hard it was to find.
The first one I figured out, I had panniers on the rear rack. I was off the bike and with rear brake applied, I pushed down hard on the pedal with my foot, and heard the click. It sounded like it was coming from the rear of the bike and repeating the push on alternate pedals this way I figured out that it was at the rear dropout area. It was a rear lower rack bolt. It was tight, but not tight enough. When you pedal, you flex the frame a bit. With panniers and weight on the rear rack, mixing the frame flex with a rack that was under a load, that allowed the rack position to shift against the dropout as I pedaled. Tightened bolt, no more clicking.
Second time the clicking slowly got worse over more than a thousand miles. Tried lots of things many times. Finally decided to change bottom bracket to see if there was something in it that made the click. Pulled off the crank arms and when I went to remove the left (non-drive) side part of the UN-55 cartridge unit, it unthreaded much easier than I expected. It was tighter than loose but it was not as tight as it should have been. So, I just tightened that and put the crank arms back on and tried the bike, no more clicking sound. The bottom bracket cartridge must have been shifting position slightly against the left side bushing causing the click.
In both of these cases I had one or two clicks with each pedal rotation, each click corresponded to one pedal push. Sometimes I got a click with each pedal push, but sometimes only got a click with one side but not the other side.
Good luck, figuring these things out can be quite frustrating at times.
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anyone know if the EBB should rock about in the shell when the bolts are loose?
I had that problem a couple of years ago on my Raven. There was a slight notchiness in my right crank-arm (it seemed). The signal was barely audible, not a 'click'. I thought it might be the BB wearing, but on closer inspection, it was not the crank arm which was moving, but the EBB on the right side. Reason was that the right-side fixing screw was not snugged up. When I tightened it to the proper torque spec (10-17Nm), the problem disappeared & hasn't returned since.
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theres been a few times Ive seen the crank coming loose and i think: this'll fix it! but no :-\... still, i will fit out a new LH crank tomorrow and see how that goes.
i checked my rack fittings and they're all tight.
i've had the UN55 cartridge out a number of times (i even replaced it) but despite all the attention, still clicking.
in my opinion, everything seems to point to the eccentric and the BB shell. has anyone ever puts shims in their BBs?
I may need a new eccentric, this one is looking a bit holey now. i think the SJS website sells 2 sizes: one for the mercury, and another one (which is the one i think i need).
i may have found some relief just by digging in those BB screws even deeper. i dont have a torque tool to measure how tight, but what i do notice is they go in and in.
incidentally i had another problem with this bike- which i probably should talk about in another post, but i will discuss it here. the slipping and crunching rohloff hub.
so i'd be riding along, and slip! crunch! grind! nasty!
I would "slip" out of gear. it was ahorrible sensation of loosing transmission and cogs grinding over each other. this created a lot of drama, and rohloff agreed to swap out the internals of the hub. all well and good, but it still happens. I wonder if anyone else reading here has had this problem? other people i spoke to said no. all a big mystery. i thought that maybe my clickstand brakeband was messing with the gear selector, but no. then, just a couple of nights back, i was riding uphill and it happened again, although at the very time the gears slipped, the clicking BB started (shortly before i had tightened the BB bolts). so i thought maybe something different is occurring- perhaps the eccentric is slipping with the pedalling (screws slipping along a furrow or hole in the eccentric), causing a sudden loss of chain tension (small, but significant) which could be creating mayhem with the hub. the only thing that tells me this isnt happening is that chain tension is not drastically reduced after a "hub slip".
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update- just tightened up the BB screws and ive turned 1 click into 3 half clicks. hard to describe, but anyone remember this little fellow? EXACTLY LIKE THAT!
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jimmy cricket lol ;D
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in my opinion, everything seems to point to the eccentric and the BB shell. has anyone ever puts shims in their BBs?
I may need a new eccentric, this one is looking a bit holey now. i think the SJS website sells 2 sizes: one for the mercury, and another one (which is the one i think i need).
I don't think there is room for shims. You need the Gold Raven / MK2 shell for external bearings
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-etc-732mm-for-external-bearing-bottom-bracket-gold/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-etc-732mm-for-external-bearing-bottom-bracket-gold/)
Seasons greetings,
Paul.
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Interesting thread for me.
Here is my story.
Any comments very very welcome.
New EBB and bottom bracket fitted Feb 2016, 2,188 miles ago
New chain has done 6,000 miles – it’s been reversed and looks in great condition – always covered by the Chainglider.
I noticed the Chainglider was looking at a funny angle and would not line up correctly. Or rather, after realigning it, it would slip back.
Removed Chainglider and found chain to be very slack. I know it’s quite OK to be on the slack side but thought it could be damaging the inside of the Chainglider – but I saw no wear to be honest.
Decided to shorten the chain by one link and reused the connecting link.
Rotated the EBB until a good ‘slack’ tension was there (referring to the guide in the Thorn Brochure) and tightened up the 2 screws.
On first ride out there was a clicking noise.
Not the wheels, brakes, seat, mudguards or pedal spindles.
The click came at every 180 degree rotation.
It was not always linked to peddling hard up hill. Although it occurred more often when there was strain on the chain.
Towards the end of the ride I noticed a different click and looked down to see one of the cranks hitting the rear stay. The EBB had slide out a few cm.
Fortunately the 2 screws were still in place – but very slack. I was able to push the EBB back in, finger tighten the 2 screws and get home.
My thoughts at the time were that the chain link was causing the click – so I put a new one on. Retightened the bolts, kept the Chainglider off in case that was the cause and went out for another ride.
Clicking was still there.
Not constantly but when it was – it was at every 180 degree rotation of the peddle.
Maybe on a 10 mile ride I would hear it x3 times for less than a minute.
Again the bolts worked loose.
Returned home and decided the EBB was in the wrong position. I referred to the picture in the Thorn guide and maybe the screws were trying to pierce the EBB?
I rotated it slightly and retightened the x2 screws.
They haven’t come loose since then but on the x3 rides I have done since – the click is still there although less frequently.
Have I damaged the bottom bracket? I don’t have the tools to remove it – the work to fit it and the EBB was done by my LBS.
Above was written a month ago.
I have since turned the EBB slightly and retightened the x2 bolts.
I now have 2 clicks. Not all the time. Heard more often than not when weight on the pedals/ increasing speed.
I have tighten/checked the chainring nuts. They were not loose.
Clicks not linked to wheel rotation or sitting on Brooks saddle. Or brakes or rear rack.
There is no play in the cranks or EBB.
Looks like the EBB should be removed, checked and greased?
Matt
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Hey Paul,
you see, ive got up and down movement in my EBB with the screws completely loosened. what i was thinking of doing is cutting up an aluminium can and sliding slithers in there to stop that rockin'. I'd be interested to know if other EBBs have this movement with screws unfastened.
Matt- so i take it you fitted an new shimano un55 cartridge too?
so clicking started after 2000 odd miles? sounds like the clicking started on a virtually unblemished eccentric (the gold aluminium thing)
do you do loaded touring?
otherwise your story reads very much like mine... "Clicking was still there.
Not constantly but when it was – it was at every 180 degree rotation of the peddle...Again the bolts worked loose...intermittent clicks"
i removed the cartridge from the eccentric, cleaned it up, even replaced it but the clicks continue, so i dont think you have to do that. i think that thing (shimano cartridge) is screwed in tight. personally, i think there could be some mismatch between the round shell (bottom of the frame) and the gold eccentric. i dont know if anyone else's eccentric moves around (up and down) in the shell with bolts removed.
standing next to the bike, have you applied pressure to the end of the pedal with your foot with the brakes applied? when i do that, the click occurs as i remove my weight, so it "clicks up". non drive side only.
i wonder if its possible refit a nomad without an eccentric?
Andrew
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Hey Paul,
you see, ive got up and down movement in my EBB with the screws completely loosened. what i was thinking of doing is cutting up an aluminium can and sliding slithers in there to stop that rockin'. I'd be interested to know if other EBBs have this movement with screws unfastened.
i wonder if its possible refit a nomad without an eccentric?
Andrew
Yes there is a bit of movement with everything lose, there has to be, if for no other reason than to allow space for the Grease, if the fit was to tight the shell would seize at the drop of a hat. Personally I would not go near cutting up cans etc.
Why on earth would you want to remove the eccentric & get into all of the other complications around adjustment of chain tension with the Hub?
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I'm not sure why, its the first time I've put it out there.
I just imagine there must be other options. Maybe this could be a problem particular to eccentrics, or an associated vulnerability. Im trying to explore a variety of solutions.
The mechanics I've been speaking to have suggested shims.
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I'm not sure why, its the first time I've put it out there.
I just imagine there must be other options. Maybe this could be a problem particular to eccentrics, or an associated vulnerability. Im trying to explore a variety of solutions.
The mechanics I've been speaking to have suggested shims.
Thorn / SJS Mechanics?
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How old is your rear cog. I went through all this, replacing chains etc only to find the rear cog needed replacement which solved the problem.
Bob
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How old is your rear cog. I went through all this, replacing chains etc only to find the rear cog needed replacement which solved the problem.
Bob
According to the OP its a circa 2015 Nomad. Unless the mileage is excessive it seems a bit odd that components are worn out so soon ???
Paul.
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Found the little notebook where I um, note such things... ;)
I experienced a similar click on one of my rando bikes. It used a Tange sealed cartridge bearing BB insert and was retained with Phil Wood rings (a better fit than the original retaining rings) which allowed a *very* slight amount of play. Even with the rings properly torqued to spec, there was a clicking similar to yours. My solution was to remove the rings and cartridge, clean off all the old grease, and then regrease, paying particular attention to greasing the *ends* of the BB insert.
Turned out the click was due to the left end of the cartridge working against the inside of the retaining ring. The grease on the end of the cartridge quietened the lot, problem solved.
Perhaps the end of your cartridge BB is fretting against the inside of the retention cup/ring?
That said, if you can get 'hold of a torque wrench, it will ensure the eccentric bolts are at the proper tension. I found there is a transient torque spike when turning the pointed ends of the grub screws into a fresh portion of the eccentric shell (i.e. on first retensioning after new). It takes a bit of oomph to pierce the anodized surface before the softer parent metal is reached. I have a feeling people stop on the initial runup and this may be why things loosen later. At the same time, it is possible to ovalize the BB shell on such designs if one gets too enthusiastic, so again a torque wrench is really handy here.
Best,
Dan. (...who offers this as one more data point)
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And.....
After me thinking I had sorted out the correct position of the EBB I found one of the retaining bolts had worked free.
Why are they coming loose?
Is it because the position of the EBB isn't allowing them to bite deep?
Very strange.
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lot to be said for a good old fashion square taper BB. ;)
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I'm not sure why, its the first time I've put it out there.
I just imagine there must be other options. Maybe this could be a problem particular to eccentrics, or an associated vulnerability. Im trying to explore a variety of solutions.
The mechanics I've been speaking to have suggested shims.
Thorn / SJS Mechanics?
i was communicating with Dave about it for a while until he was all out of ideas. He didn’t answer the last 2 emails i sent him so I stopped sending him.
i had been in contact with andy nomad designer and test pilot about other matters but he didnt answer any of the emails i sent him on this clicking topic. again, i just stopped emailing.
ive taken it to a few *star* mechanics gruppo peloton mamil. These guys take the bike, take the money, but dont fix it. take it back to them, and they offer to try again (no guarantees) but want money up front, and can’t guarantee how long they'll have it or how much it'll eventually cost me. Those beards are costly to coiffure. Then there’s the LBS boys on the corner who continually wont take money because they cant fix it. I stopped taking it to them, they’re just losing money on me and I can see they’re doing it tough anyway.
now im going to free community bike workshops run by FT bike mechanics in their time off (LBS, above). learning hands on skills, fixing up donated bikes to give away to the needy. week after week i go back, and they know then that the bike is still clicking despite what we tried the week before. They call me mr clicking and my theme song is “thorn in my side”. Can you ever not get a song out of your head. I shouldn’t really be there because I must seem like the poor little rich boy with the expensive new imported bike that’s causing hassles. Still there’s something about seeing all those rejected and abandoned bikes left on roadsides come in by the truck load, get roadworthy, and get back out on the streets under people’s bums where they belong. The turnover is something to be seen. I love it how some people see old bikes as rubbish, and others just see the potential, the heritage of engineering, salvaging nearly everything that went into the complex original manufacture, even though it probably did originally come out of k-mart. the only thing these guys want is to see more people riding. It was funny a couple of weeks back the old boy came out of his shipping container ‘office’ in his greasy dustcoat with the pens in the pocket, (picture sid james but minus the gags) disparagingly looked at me, then the bike, then me again and candidly retorted: “oh will you just throw that piece of rubbish out, it’s crap!!” the rest of us just looked at each other and practically wet ourselves.
apart from that course I’m consulting this forum, which i am finding very helpful.
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I'm not sure why, its the first time I've put it out there.
I just imagine there must be other options. Maybe this could be a problem particular to eccentrics, or an associated vulnerability. Im trying to explore a variety of solutions.
The mechanics I've been speaking to have suggested shims.
Thorn / SJS Mechanics?
ive taken it to a few *star* mechanics gruppo peloton mamil. These guys take the bike, take the money, but dont fix it. take it back to them, and they offer to try again (no guarantees) but want money up front, and can’t guarantee how long they'll have it or how much it'll eventually cost me. Those beards are costly to coiffure. Then there’s the LBS boys on the corner who continually wont take money because they cant fix it. I stopped taking it to them, they’re just losing money on me and I can see they’re doing it tough anyway.
now im going to free community bike workshops run by FT bike mechanics in their time off (LBS, above). learning hands on skills, fixing up donated bikes to give away to the needy.
Good on ye chap! 8) It's been over 25 years since I used a Bike Shop for maintenance for very similar reasons.
Cheers,
Paul.
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It's frustrating you can't find the click. As I mentioned above I've had it three times and managed to narrow it down by systematically going from pedal to crank to chain ring bolts, bent teeth, to EBB to BB. I've pedalled one legged (when no one was looking) to try and isolate to left or right. At each stage everything was cleaned, swarf removed and greased. In my cases once was a pedal, once was a crank arm and once was the EBB moving under load and creating a groove. If you remove the EBB check to see if any of the holes have coalesced, file down any swarf and clean the shell. I don't use a torque gauge but the EBB bolts need to be ' really quite tight' ie enough to make big dints in the alu without squashing the BB cartridge.
Above you ask about gaps and shims. I recall that my old raven frame had quite a visible gap between frame and EBB even when the bolts were tight which I filled with grease and never had a problem. The RST frame seems tighter. Good luck!
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I don't use a torque gauge but the EBB bolts need to be ' really quite tight' ie enough to make big dints in the alu without squashing the BB cartridge.
I don't think damaging the cartridge should be an issue as long as one is not screwing into the Thin part of the eccentric, but the bolts certainly do have to be tight. In the middle of the Recommended Torque range it equals a considerable amount of force or as Dan succinctly put it oomph! I am not sure I would rush out and buy a torque wrench just for the eccentric but they are a very handy tool to have in your Kit.
Paul.
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Yes you are right Paul, the EBB is a pretty big mass of metal except in the forbidden thin section.
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i was going to ask that. what does 10-17 N 7.38-12.54 ft lb Force feel like? seems like it's pretty tight.
anyone ovalised their shell by overtightening?
I, like, Matt, seem to be constantly finding loose grub screws in the EBB shell that are not loose loose, but anything but pretty tight.
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i was going to ask that. what does 10-17 N 7.38-12.54 ft lb Force feel like? seems like it's pretty tight.
I, like, Matt, seem to be constantly finding loose grub screws in the EBB shell that are not loose loose, but anything but pretty tight.
Yes, to put it simply it's 'Fairly Big Boys Tight'. The forces at play on the eccentric and the bolts when on is peddling are considerable doubly so when peddling hard like Out of the saddle. If the bolts are regularly working loose it is possible they were not tight enough to start with.
Paul.
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I use 12-13 ft-lbs on my torque wrench, and that does the trick.
BBB make a nice piece of kit, from Chain Reaction Cycles, several hex keys included. Its range is 2-14 ft-lbs. It has a 1/4" drive, however, so I had to search online for a specialty supplier which sold me a good quality 15mm socket for a 1/4" drive -- most hardware stores I checked offered 13mm as the largest 1/4" drive socket.
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Andrew,
I think I may have given you a bum steer. Looks Like I miss red an earlier post. If you have a square taper bottom bracket & want to replace the eccentric, you need the black one (for MK2). All of the rest re tension on bolts both Crank and eccentric still apply.
Sorry.
Paul.
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update- just tightened up the BB screws and ive turned 1 click into 3 half clicks. hard to describe, but anyone remember this little fellow? EXACTLY LIKE THAT!
Could it be your chain? Depending on exactly what you did you may well have increased chain tension. If there is an issue with a chain link or roller this could change the noise. Try a new chain?
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If you have a square taper bottom bracket & want to replace the eccentric, you need the black one (for MK2).
I think either eccentric works with a square taper bottom bracket. For an external-bearing bottom bracket, you must use the gold one.
I have a Nomad Mk2 with a UN55 square taper bottom bracket and the gold eccentric.
Just for clarification, here are the links to SJS:
- gold: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-etc-732mm-for-external-bearing-bottom-bracket-gold (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-etc-732mm-for-external-bearing-bottom-bracket-gold/?geoc=US)
- black: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-catalyst-enduro-sterling-twin-tandem (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-catalyst-enduro-sterling-twin-tandem/?geoc=US)
- Dave
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Good points geocycle. Re tracking down the clicks.
But mine started directly after shortening the chain and rotating the EBB.
I'm pretty sure that the nuts have nothing to bite into.
After the seasonal celebrations have passed by I'll get my hands dirty and try to realign the EBB so there is a beafy part for the screws to dig into.
Fingers crossed
Matt
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If you have a square taper bottom bracket & want to replace the eccentric, you need the black one (for MK2).
I think either eccentric works with a square taper bottom bracket. For an external-bearing bottom bracket, you must use the gold one.
I have a Nomad Mk2 with a UN55 square taper bottom bracket and the gold eccentric.
Dave
Just shows how one is never to old to learn.
Cheers Dave.
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update- just tightened up the BB screws and ive turned 1 click into 3 half clicks. hard to describe, but anyone remember this little fellow? EXACTLY LIKE THAT!
Could it be your chain? Depending on exactly what you did you may well have increased chain tension. If there is an issue with a chain link or roller this could change the noise. Try a new chain?
do you think i may have rolled the eccentric around a tad? anyway, replace the chain, another thing to tick off the list. i notice matt2matt in an earlier post felt it was not chain related. i recently removed a link from my chain, tension seems nice.
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If you have a square taper bottom bracket & want to replace the eccentric, you need the black one (for MK2).
I think either eccentric works with a square taper bottom bracket. For an external-bearing bottom bracket, you must use the gold one.
I have a Nomad Mk2 with a UN55 square taper bottom bracket and the gold eccentric.
Just for clarification, here are the links to SJS:
- gold: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-etc-732mm-for-external-bearing-bottom-bracket-gold (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-etc-732mm-for-external-bearing-bottom-bracket-gold/?geoc=US)
- black: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-catalyst-enduro-sterling-twin-tandem (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bottom-brackets/eccentric-bottom-bracket-insert-fits-raven-mk2-sport-tour-catalyst-enduro-sterling-twin-tandem/?geoc=US)
- Dave
yep ive currently got the gold one, i'll get anothery like that.
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quite a few posts have mentioned greasing up the EBB. Ive got some of that S&S fluorinated teflon grease, i'll have to bang some of that in there as opposed to the standard bike grease currently in. after the grubscrew tightening the EBB has so many micro clicks now it crackles.
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update- just tightened up the BB screws and ive turned 1 click into 3 half clicks. hard to describe, but anyone remember this little fellow? EXACTLY LIKE THAT!
Could it be your chain? Depending on exactly what you did you may well have increased chain tension. If there is an issue with a chain link or roller this could change the noise. Try a new chain?
do you think i may have rolled the eccentric around a tad? anyway, replace the chain, another thing to tick off the list. i notice matt2matt in an earlier post felt it was not chain related. i recently removed a link from my chain, tension seems nice.
When I tighten the chain I sometimes think I have the EBB exactly right and then when I tighten the bolts the tension increase again slightly, which must be a change in the EBB position. I was just picking up on the clue that the noise had changed. If there is a slightly damaged plate, roller or special link it may be the culprit and it is a cheap thing to check.
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so do you think the clicking could be coming from the chain?
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so do you think the clicking could be coming from the chain?
It has to be a possibility and one that you could easily check by putting a new one on before you consider more expensive solutions.
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so do you think the clicking could be coming from the chain?
It has to be a possibility and one that you could easily check by putting a new one on before you consider more expensive solutions.
i certainly will try that. although i should mention that I can replicate the click by standing next to the bike on the LHS, tilting it slightly to the right, and pressing down on the edge of the left pedal with my foot. click happens as i remove the pressure
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Does the EBB look in the wrong position?
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I'm no expert but I can't see it. Can you take a photo non drive side?
here's mine
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so do you think the clicking could be coming from the chain?
It has to be a possibility and one that you could easily check by putting a new one on before you consider more expensive solutions.
i certainly will try that. although i should mention that I can replicate the click by standing next to the bike on the LHS, tilting it slightly to the right, and pressing down on the edge of the left pedal with my foot. click happens as i remove the pressure
Well, that test would tension the chain so possibly. Your test also puts strain on pedals, cranks, BB, and notoriously creaky areas like stem and handlebars (assuming you are holding these).
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Thanks aji
These shots any good?
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bet it's the BB .if u riding a rohloff they have been know to fail ;)
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bet it's the BB .if u riding a rohloff they have been know to fail ;)
Anto, I think you have hit the grubscrew right on the head!
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i'm not as stupid as i look ;D ;D.
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so do you think the clicking could be coming from the chain?
It has to be a possibility and one that you could easily check by putting a new one on before you consider more expensive solutions.
i certainly will try that. although i should mention that I can replicate the click by standing next to the bike on the LHS, tilting it slightly to the right, and pressing down on the edge of the left pedal with my foot. click happens as i remove the pressure
Well, that test would tension the chain so possibly. Your test also puts strain on pedals, cranks, BB, and notoriously creaky areas like stem and handlebars (assuming you are holding these).
I just showed a reputable mechanic. replicated the noise. He put his head down there and held the ebb and said the noise is coming from there as well as the vibration.
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So what will you do?
And, is mine in the correct position?
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So what will you do?
And, is mine in the correct position?
I'm not sure what I will do Matt.
Your ebb appears to be in the right position. From what I can see the grub screws have the maximum amount of aluminum to bite down into. But you have a different eccentric to mine, yours appears a bit slimmer. David Simpson understands these things. All that said, this still doesn't explain the clicking. I think my next move will be to grease up the shell and eccentric as the community have suggested. I have the s&s grease which I understand works miracles! But all the mechanics I show are at a loss. Mind, eccentric bbs are not common in these parts. Shims have been suggested to me, I still have the aluminum can here. I was thinking of cutting it into strips and feeding them in to stop the freeplay. This concept has not been viewed favorably by the other bloggers! Im wondering, could a few strips of soft aluminum fed in between the shell and the ebb damage the former?
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... David Simpson understands these things. ...
Not really. I only know that the gold eccentric works with any BB, and the black eccentric doesn't work with external-bearing BBs. The only reason why I know that is that I asked SJS about getting a black one for my Nomad (simply because I prefer the black colour).
- DaveS
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And that's probably all you need to know about EBBs, which is still a lot more than I do!
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Andrew,
I've mentioned this on the Forum before, but it might prove helpful once again...
Have you tried a mechanic's stethoscope? The two I have were some of my most useful tools when I did auto repair. Each consists of a steel shaft that goes into a plastic bulb (Sound chamber) and then rubber hoses attach to two junctions in that, leading to earpieces. Works a treat for finding things like bad water pumps without need for disassembly; same for alternator bearings. One of these stethoscopes located the creak in my Brooks saddle almost immediately -- the nosepiece was creaking on the forward loop of the saddle frame. A strategically placed drop of oil rendered it silent.
You can make your own version using a screwdriver (really! I'm not winding you up). Place the tip on the part you're checking and then press the handle end hard against your head, just ahead of or behind your ear. You'll hear all sorts of creaks and clicks via bone conduction. Just move the tip 'round till you locate the source of the noise. Mind you watch your nose and ear, as they can get a bit close to moving parts. For this reason, a long-shafted screwdriver works best of you don't have the official version of the mechanic's stethoscope.
Quickly taken photos below for your viewing enjoyment. ;)
Best of luck,
Dan.
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thanks Dan! so I could do this whilst a friend pedalled on a trainer?
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...so I could do this whilst a friend pedalled on a trainer?
Yes, sure -- so long as you are careful to not get yourself wound up in the machinery. It can happen. I once saw a guy lose part of his finger while using his other hand to pedal a fixed-gear bike in the repair stand. He reached down to flick a bit of dust off the chainstay and forgot that with no chain tensioner, the drivetrain can be pretty unforgiving. Same for a Rohloff, so be careful.
Also, if your friend is pedaling, watch out for his feet. They describe a much larger circle than the cranks/pedals. I got popped in the nose once trying something similar.
All the best,
Dan.
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will do, this sounds like a great way to diagnose, well worth it.
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I like that idea, Dan. I have heard of a mechanic's stethoscope, but I've never heard of that trick with the screwdriver. Great idea.
I had a picture in my mind of Andrew riding his bike with one end of a screwdriver pressed against his skull and the other end on his bottom bracket, listening for any unusual sounds. :)
- DaveS
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I had a picture in my mind of Andrew riding his bike with one end of a screwdriver pressed against his skull and the other end on his bottom bracket, listening for any unusual sounds. :)
- DaveS
yep, that's what i originally thought too, and i was going to mention it, but luckily thought better of it!
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i also thought maybe get a friend to run alongside me with a screwdriver to their head as a I rode , and they would also be touching diverse areas of the bike while keeping pace.
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Anyone care to write the Pythonesque script for the youTube vid that will go viral?
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Anyone care to write the Pythonesque script for the youTube vid that will go viral?
Ironically, the Monty Python gang already did a sketch called "Bicycle Repairman".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U01xasUtlvw)
Best line (delivered by John Cleese): "See how he uses a spanner to tighten that nut!"
No screwdriver-to-the-skull though.
- DaveS
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Thanks aji
These shots any good?
Is your eccentric centred in the bottom bracket shell (left to right)? your photos seem to be showing that the eccentic is off centre towards the left side? that could mean that the grub screws are getting a poor grip of the eccentric. You could check the dents that the grub screws have made, see if the dents are off towards the edge of the meaty part off the eccentric or are running centrally.
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this system is all a load of hassle (i was going to say something else but Dan would only delete it ) ;D ;D,obviously you need this stupid BB for the even more stupid rohloff hub .give me a break worst system ever made.
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You can make your own version using a screwdriver (really! I'm not winding you up). Place the tip on the part you're checking and then press the handle end hard against your head, just ahead of or behind your ear. You'll hear all sorts of creaks and clicks via bone conduction. Just move the tip 'round till you locate the source of the noise. Mind you watch your nose and ear, as they can get a bit close to moving parts. For this reason, a long-shafted screwdriver works best of you don't have the official version of the mechanic's stethoscope.
It wasn't that long ago when it was quite usual to see water board engineers checking stopcocks in the road for mains leaks using a steel rod with a wooden ear piece which was pressed against the head. As a result I also have used the screwdriver with wood handle to check for leaks in pipes etc.
Id.
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Thanks aji
These shots any good?
Is your eccentric centred in the bottom bracket shell (left to right)? your photos seem to be showing that the eccentic is off centre towards the left side? that could mean that the grub screws are getting a poor grip of the eccentric. You could check the dents that the grub screws have made, see if the dents are off towards the edge of the meaty part off the eccentric or are running centrally.
Yes, I had wondered about that.
I lined up the chain running from the top of the chain ring to the rear cog by eye..
Is there any other way of doing that? I can appreciate that if the chain doesn't run ' true' then there will be excessive wear.
I agree. The EBB does ' protrude rather more than I recall before I started my exploration for the click noise.
Comments very welcome.
Matt
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Matt,
I align my eccentric so it is placed evenly between the edges of the BB shell. At that point, my chainline aligns as it is supposed to.
To align the eccentric evenly, I usually use my fingers as a guide, checking with a thumbnail to make sure it is even side to side.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan.
I'll give that method a go.
I think that was how it was set before I brought on the click issue.
Would a laser pen be of any use aligning up the chain with front and back ring/ cog?
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this system is all a load of hassle
That's one way of looking at it, Anto. Another is that all of us have a lot of time on our hands, enough to pitch in to solve the problem of a wee click. Why do we have so much time on our hands? Well, it's crap weather pretty much everywhere just now ('cept in Australia), so we're not out riding. But also, no-one, no-one, you'll have noticed, is wailing about their derailleur adjustment problems, and seeking help or comfort... ;)
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Would a laser pen be of any use aligning up the chain with front and back ring/ cog?
Well, sure, but you don't have to go that far. Any straight-edge, be it a piece of cut wood or perhaps a meter stick/yardstick will do to see if you're near the required chainline.
Really, if the bike was setup correctly originally wrt to a Rohloff chainline, then making sure the eccentric is evenly centered in the BB shell will restore alignment.
If your eccentric is offset to one side (say, the left as it appears in the photo), then the chain will run at an angle and if you have a slightly stiff link, that can surely account for the clicking noise. You might even get a click with every link, as the chain will hit the edge of the chainring teeth, rather than square on.
All the best,
Dan.
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Would a laser pen be of any use aligning up the chain with front and back ring/ cog?
For chainring/rear sprocket alignment I use a builder's rule. Not bought just for bike maintenance, it gets used for other jobs around the house and outside.
On some bikes I can adjust the bottom bracket (TA Axix with lockrings on both sides) or the rear sprocket (dished sprocket, or move spacers from one side of the sprocket to the other).
My two Rohloff equipped bikes are pretty much spot on, but I wouldn't worry if the alignment is not quite correct.
Although I try to get chainline as good as possible, in the past I have had it out of alignment on some bikes by up to about 10 mm without noticing any problems. This was with Sturmey Archer or Shimano Nexus 8 hub gears, but I don't see why Rohloff should be different.
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i just like winding you rohloff boys up John ;D ;D
but saying that i'm not a fan of rohloff or disc brakes no need for them on a bike ,electric bike yes because that a different kettle fish altogether
you guys hold great faith in the rohloff system until it goes wrong and your left stranded in the middle of nowhere cold wet hungry mad dogs on your tail get me the hell out of of here, but you can't go anywhere because your stupid rohloff packed in left you stranded and your hands are badly burned from trying to fix the disc after decending a mountain pass ,
oh yes time to get the brain in motion and sell those bike's get a proper touring bike with parts you can fix without any problems. ;)
anto.
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Hands up all those who have had a rohloff or has heard of one which has failed.
Anyone had a derailleur fail.
I'm with you regarding discs, I really miss drum brakes my car. ;)
Bob
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utube is your friend Bob ;D ;D
Bob i hope you never have a problem with your class bike but what if u did, big trouble brother your left stranded :'(
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Anto, I've had my fill of wonky derailleurs letting me down in places where I didn't want to be let down -- big hills seemed to be the location of choice, but things went wrong on flat roads in river valleys too. (No ravenous critters a-chasin' me, we don't have those things in Canada, just the wee blackflies in their gazillions.)
So I bought myself a Rohloff--sold my AJS scrambler, couldn't afford the $$ otherwise--and now I don't even think about gear changes, chains, stuff like that. Any time I stop on a hill, it's because I want to, not because my rear derailleur has decided it needs a break from doing its job.
Lots of people have had good success with derailleurs, and I'm happy for them.
Cheers, J.
PS: Pls don't stop winding us up -- though I don't want you to feel discouraged if we don't take the bait ;)
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you gotta laugh John ;D ;D
some guys get really hot under the collor when u (me) slag there pride and joy but sure life would be dull in everything or everyone was perfect.
is it still snowing there John. ;)
i hope santa didn't forget me this year.
anto.
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Hands up all those who have had a rohloff or has heard of one which has failed.
Bob
ME! but i will deal with that in the appropriate forum once i get this EBB issue sorted.
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allright lads hope y'all had a good break.
thought i'd include some pics of the EBB, bb shell etc for your perusal.
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sorry about the grime...
so i pulled the whole thing apart as you can see, added the super duper S&S machine fluorinated teflon grease (which mostly pushed out owing to the flush fit of eccentric into shell) and also removed the UN55 cartridge and lubed that.
and the clicking continues.
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Sorry to hear the clicking continues. Nothing there looks amiss to me. I think you mentioned that you had already changed the BB, so what about the cranks are they showing any wear where they attach to the tapers -can you put another set on to check? Do you grease the tapers?
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I changed the un55 cartridge, but the eccentric no.
I'll try greasing the tapers. Could grease lessen movement if the crank is misshapen?
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I changed the un55 cartridge, but the eccentric no.
I'll try greasing the tapers. Could grease lessen movement if the crank is misshapen?
Greasing tapers divides opinion. I do and have never had a problem, others suggest it encourages the cranks to work their way off. It won't lessen any movement but could hide a noise. The holes in cranks can sometimes wear a bit as they are under huge pressures. There was a picture of an extreme version of a mis-shapen one on the CTC forum recently if you want to browse http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=111276&p=1082194&hilit=crank#p1082194
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Did you try the trainer test yet with a friend listening for the exact spot where the click is while you pedaled?
I really suspect it is something on the frame if you have done as much drivetrain inspection as it sounds like you have. I made my comment on page one of this thread that one of my bottom bracket clicks was actually a rear rack bolt that needed tightening.
I have heard of seatposts clicking inside the frame as the frame flexed while pedaling to cause a click that sounded like bottom bracket too.
Clicking means movement. And anything that will make a noise like a click when it is moving is the type of thing that is not supposed to move. So, my point is that grease might mask a symptom but won't solve a problem.
I changed the un55 cartridge, but the eccentric no.
I'll try greasing the tapers. Could grease lessen movement if the crank is misshapen?
Greasing tapers divides opinion. I do and have never had a problem, others suggest it encourages the cranks to work their way off. It won't lessen any movement but could hide a noise. The holes in cranks can sometimes wear a bit as they are under huge pressures. There was a picture of an extreme version of a mis-shapen one on the CTC forum recently if you want to browse http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=111276&p=1082194&hilit=crank#p1082194
I think that greasing the taper is recommended by some manufacturers but not by others. If I recall correctly Campy specifically recommended against grease back when they still made square taper cranks. (I have two bikes with Campy square taper triples.) But I think others recommended grease.