Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: Danneaux on April 17, 2016, 04:02:01 AM

Title: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 17, 2016, 04:02:01 AM
Hi All!

Flush with modest gifts of some combined Christmas and birthday cash, I am casting acquisitive eyes toward a ginormous Carradice Camper Longflap (and possibly one of the offered quick-release supports), thinking it might just the ticket  for some one-bag ultralight cycle-camping. The dimensions look workable for my minimal kit that will allow for hot meals and riding and sleeping dry and warm doing 700-800mi/1127-1287km summertime weeks Away.

I have developed several questions to put to the Thorn Forum Hivemind; thanks in advance for your answers:

After years with semi-porous homemade panniers lined with bin liners, I have become a confirmed Ortliebian, primarily for their truly waterproof characteristics. If the weather changes for the worst, I ride through it on days sometimes stretching from dawn to dusk, and use my tent only for sleeping. With this in mind, I wonder: How truly waterproof has Carradice's waxed cotton canvas proven to be for owners? I fear it may not be as waterproof as my Ortliebs (spoiled much?) and might have me returning to bin liners or dry sacks to keep things arid inside. For references to these fears, see exchanges here:
http://www.bikeforums.net/long-distance-competition-ultracycling-randonneuring-endurance-cycling/248741-waterproofing-carradice.html I wonder if anyone makes a Camper Longflap-sized saddlebag from Ortlieblike heavily coated Cordura "Plus" fabric with heat-sealed seams?

It seams Carradice bags need periodic freshening of the wax treatment to maintain waterproofness. Have you done this, and if so, how often? Do you re-treat it inside and out, or on just one surface, letting it seep through?

Despite warmer-drier summers in recent years, Fall, Winter, and Spring in my locale tend to be wet and my bikes are stored in an unheated garage. Have you found the waxed cotton to mildew or develop mold in such conditions? I'd like to avoid the all-permeating smell and appearance of mildew. I recently unearthed my late father's canvas hiking Trapper Nelson-style backpacks and bedroll from the late 1940s to mid-1950s and while they are in nearly new condition, they have a stockage d'odeur that renders them unusable by me -- difficult, as sentiment precludes me parting with them.

Are there any traits or characteristics of the Camper Longflap that put you off you'd wish to share?

On my side of the world, a Carradice Camper Longflap and Bagman uplift together can run the better part of $300 plus shipping from stateside suppliers, multiples more than my gift-money will cover. I remember members have occasionally made pilgrimages to Carradice to snag deals on "seconds" that sold for bargain rates and looked unblemished to the casual glance. This leads to a couple more questions:
      If you bought a Camper Longflap or noticed one while there, do you recall the general price? I'm trying to get some idea of the potential savings.
      If you live nearby Carradice or are planning a visit there, might it be possible to piggyback a purchase on yours? I would pay purchase and shipping costs, of course.
      Alternatively, if someone has a gently pre-loved example they wish to sell for less than the price of new, please PM me.
      Oh! Color. I see they are available in green with honey leather straps or black with white, but no black-and-honey combinations. Do you have a preference, and why? I'm leaning heavily toward black to match my Ortlieb handlebar bag....

EDIT: Or, do I really want a Super C? It appears to be within 1l the capacity of the Camper Longflap, but I am a little hazy as to any advantages. I see it uses plastic buckles and nylon webbing and I have not yet found it in a longflap variant. I think the longflap would be very handy for the extra capacity needed in my intended use.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Neil Jones on April 17, 2016, 08:24:45 AM
Hi Dan,

Although I can't answer your question regarding athe Carradice Camper Longflap specifically I can give you my own general opinion of the Carradice bags that I own and use.

I have the Carradice Super C front and rear panniers which I've owned for about 10 years and to be honest don't get used as much as they should but they make an appearance if I need to carry anything bulky from the shops or work, they are very tough and have never leaked once. The bag I use daily is a Super C Rackbag which I've owned for about 13 years. It too has never leaked once although if I am carrying anything I am worried would suffer from wetting I put it inside an Exped Dry Bag for added insurance. Bearing in mind I live in Wales which is a pretty wet part of the world I think they've done me proud.

With regards to maintenance I give the bags a coating of the canvas wax which I find best to use if I've sat the tin of wax in warm water for a few minutes to soften up then apply using a cotton cloth then I run a heat gun on a low setting all over to allow the wax to penetrate the canvas, outside only. I was finding that the Velcro straps that hold the bag on to the rack had lost it's stickiness, I contacted Carradice and they said they would put new ones on for 8 including postage, I took up their offer and the bag should be good for at least another decade.

All my bags are kept in an unheated garage when not in use and they have never suffered from mildew, they can give off a smell similar to a new Barbour jacket when new which I find quite nice although some don't.

I've never owned Ortlieb bags but have heard they are superb quality and I suppose if you want something to be guaranteed 100% watertight they may be the route to go but I find Carradice bags have more character and heritage, a bit like a Brooks saddle. I also like to support small firms that continue making quality products here in the UK.

To be honest Dan I don't think you will go wrong with either choice, both are great quality and it may boil down to personal aesthetics, perhaps you'd like the bag to match your barbag or paintwork etc.

Good luck with your upcoming purchase anyway, and hope to see a few photos of your lightweight camping bike in action.

Regards,
Neil

Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: leftpoole on April 17, 2016, 09:54:48 AM
Dan,
My input!
I have been Camping with a Force Ten tent (Nitro lite) trangia mini, food, clothing, sleeping bag (down) and Thermarest mat. All in and on a Carradice Camper! (plus a bottle of Budweiser)
The Super C is larger in use but the Camper L/F is smaller because of the folding flap.
I always wrap any contents in poly bags by the way although never had a Carradice product leak.
Best,
John
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: DAntrim on April 17, 2016, 11:11:40 AM
Hi Dan,

I have had the Camper Longflap for the past 21/2 years, used on a daily basis commuting to & from work (laptop / clothes / food) , weekend overnighters and on tour, in all weathers the UK decides to throw at me and it has never needed reproofing, indeed the aged look it has now adds to the appearance. As I keep mine in the house, cant answer the question regards odours, but the missus doesn't moan  ;)

The directions on the Carradice wax tin for reproofing are.....
Brush off any excess dust or dirt. Place tin in hot water to soften the wax. Apply with a clean cotton cloth. Smooth over surface paying particular attention to seams and lids. Finally, apply heat from a hot air gun or hair dryer so the wax disperses evenly into the fabric.

For mounting the bag I purchased the bagman QR expedition, removed the metal support and attached the bracket to saddle rails, letting the weight be supported by the rear rack. After trying many packing options, on a short break I can take trangia triangle / stove / mess tin - 4 days worth of breakfast / evening meals, down bag, Exped downmat, spare clothes, android tablet, washing kit, spare tools in side pockets, the tent inner, pole & pegs secured under the longflap (to my mind the main advantage of the longflap), tent outer and waterproofs strapped outside, any longer away and I need to add a set of Super C front panniers.

I paid full price from Carradice for the longflap / bagman direct from Carradice, but have since used ebay to get Super C panniers / bar bag and barley saddlebag, as slight seconds direct from Carradice shop, never had any issues with them.

Never had any water ingress into the longflap and don't pack anything inside drybags.

Hope this helps
Carlos

Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Bill C on April 17, 2016, 01:45:31 PM
got both the super c and a couple of camper longflaps, much prefer the camper LF over the super c
the camper in green and honey is far nicer than the black version, if they made green and honey super C panniers i'd be in heaven, still i've got the kendalls

bagman quick release is great,very useful
the bagman wire/stainless support bracket,not worth it, the support holds small loads but anything heavy and it's like riding with stuff attached to a trampoline, i took the wire support off and use the rack for support

what's wrong with Frost River?
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on April 17, 2016, 03:26:11 PM
I have the Nelson Longflap.

I put a piece of cardboard in it to act as a stiffener.  Fortunately, I have not had too much rain in my travels,the cardboard held up well.  Looking at it from the side, the cardboard was a U shape, so it was in the front part (nearest the seatpost), bottom and back.  I have heard that Coroplast works better than cardboard, but I have not gone to a sign maker to buy any, ... yet.

I have no experience with re-waxing the fabric.

Regarding wet weather, as I said I have been reasonably dry where I used it.  But if I planned to go out and get wet in your kind of weather, I would look for a lightweight dry bag or two, perhaps like the ones made by Sea to Summit.

I think I got mine from Wiggle.com about 3 or 4 years ago.  Last year I got my Carradry panniers at Evans cycles.  I just checked, both Wiggle and Evans do not have the saddle bag you are interested in.  But, do a google search with the phrase sale price in the search term, there may be other sources at good prices.

I leave a pair of toe clip straps on the attachment points on the top for when I want to roll up a jacket or something like that to strap on top.

In the photos you can see that mine sits on top of my panniers, so I can't advise on the best way to support it when it is full and there are no panniers under it.  You can see from the photos that I usually use mine with the flap in the non-extended position.  But the long flap is great for when you buy more groceries than you planned.  All of these photos are from my Pacific Coast trip. 

The last photo is cropped from the third photo to make it easier to see, you can tell the flap is extended because of the extra straps hanging from the lid.  Take a good look at that last photo, it was as full as I could get it.  I do not know what the Camper Longflap looks like when it is completely full, but you can see that the my Nelson Longflap in the photo would be pretty unwieldy if it was not well supported by the panniers underneath it.

I have only seen mine, which is black, no opinions on other colors.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Andre Jute on April 17, 2016, 04:14:39 PM
A couple of opinions:

1. If you can get a leather-strap version, avoid the velcro. The amount of use you give your gear, the velcro will have to be replaced several times over the life of the bag. Even if the cost at Carradice is only 8, which seems very reasonable, where you live carriage will escalate that to real money.

2. I have a Goretex jacket that I curse any time it rains heavily. Nikwax does nothing for it. The heated wax procedure may work but personally I think the Ortlieb idea of a synthetic material that starts wetproof and stays wetproof is superior to waxed cotton in all respects except heritage.

3. If you have to match the black of gear you already have, you have to match it; unmatched luggage looks careless unless it is deliberately done for style or function. However, I will say though that the green cotton duck and honey leather Carradice Cape Roll that I had for a bit (I gave it to someone who inherited a vintage Raleigh in just the right colour because it didn't suit my needs) looked rich whereas the black with white straps looks utilitarian and the black  shows dirt earlier and worse. The green looks good much longer than the black.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Donerol on April 17, 2016, 04:24:37 PM
We have used Carradice bags for years. Living in the west of Scotland they have been subjected to a lot of rain but have always kept the contents dry. We sometimes use light polybags inside but that is just to keep stuff organised - the polybags usually have holes. One pannier once developed a couple of spots of mildew after it had been put away damp in the understairs cupboard for a long time, and probably 'caught' it from some old boots which had been affected. It scrubbed off easily and there was no damage. My husband leaves his pannier permanently attached to his bike, so it lives in the  wooden bike shed all year round.  The shed is unheated and damp (rainwater is allowed to run in under the back door and out under the front door), but thanks to the deliberate gaps under the doors it is well ventilated, and there has never been a mildew problem even though the pannier is frequently dripping on the outside by the time he gets home.

Super C plastic buckles are quick release and easier to use with frozen fingers, but in your place I would prefer the greater flexibility of the longflap option. A lot of people like the green, but IMO it fades to a rather tatty grey, and shows the dirt more. I always seem to manage to get black on my hands from the rims when locking my bike up, so I stick to the black  bags which always look smart.

I've just seen Andre's post - beauty is in the eye of the beholder! Green and honey looks naff to me and I think the black looks good much longer than the black - LOL!

This guy (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carradice-Camper-Longflap-Saddlebag-great-for-credit-card-TOURING-and-AUDAX/201071640430?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140122125356%26meid%3D06bfe4cba14e4066af8003a699c6db45%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D221771707032) does the Longflap at 78 and will post worldwide.  However presumably you would be hit for customs dues.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: IanW on April 17, 2016, 04:27:38 PM
Hi Dan,

I have been a long-time user of various Carradice cotton-duck saddlebags (and recently handlebar bags and panniers).

I had a "Cadet" saddle bag (i.e. no "long-flap" and no end pockets") since the late 70's.
I re-proofed it once by rubbing re-proofing wax onto the outside and then using a hair-drier to distribute /permiate the wax.
I only sold about a year ago because it was not large enough to hold a pump and a U-lock.

I have no less than 3 x Low-Saddle Long Flaps.
One owned from new since 1986.
The second I got s/hand off eBay in approx 1990
The third was an un-wanted cast-off from a friend a year or so later.

The latter two are on my recumbent trike on either side of a rack over the rear wheel (think short height panniers).
The original is used on my RST, used with a Bagman Quick Release (Expedition version but also with the wire frame eschewed in favour of a Thorn rack)

Two of them have as yet not needed reproofing, despite standing outside in the rain quite often.
But that is not to say that they are utterly leak-proof.
So when I am carrying any water-damagable electronics, then I use a dry-bag / polythene bag as addtional protection.

The third, cast-off one, was in a rather poor state: old, dirty, faded and mildewed.
I removed the wooden dowel and hand-washed it in soap and water and then swabbed the mildew with dilute bleach.
I left it to completely dry out and then reproofed with wax (as I did to the "Cadet" above).
And now, apart from the colour fading, it is almost as good as new.

IFF I wanted yet another saddlebag AND I wanted better waterproofing
then I think the design of the Super C saddlebag and in particular the lid flap
looks like it would provide significantly better waterproofing than a "long-flap".

But I happen to like the load capacity expansion provided by the "long flap".

If you decide to opt for a long-flap then here's a modification suggestion:
In addition to the 2 press-studs that hold the excess flap length when not needed I have also added strips of velcro at either end to make the folded long-flap into a pocket.

I also have a pair of Super C rear panniers and a Super C handlebar bag.
These were all bought s/hand but they have only been owned by me for less than 3 years.
So I cannot really provide a personal long-term ownership report.
But so far all 3 have been completely water-tight including when used on a rather soggy 10-day trip down beside the Danube.

My spouse is a bit more "economical" when it comes to  choosing bike panniers and so she has bought various "cheap" panniers and handlebar bags over the years.
They have all leaked, broken, or otherwise perished over the years, so I think she has probably actually spent at least the same amount as me but has little left to show for it while I still have a perfectly servicable set of Carradice stuff.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Bill C on April 17, 2016, 04:54:15 PM
.

I put a piece of cardboard in it to act as a stiffener................................................Looking at it from the side, the cardboard was a U shape, so it was in the front part (nearest the seatpost), bottom and back.  I have heard that Coroplast works better than cardboard, but I have not gone to a sign maker to buy any, ... yet.



i have done the same as mickeg for a stiffener, but used a thin flexible cutting board from tesco, came in a pack of 3 or 4 ebay have them http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2055119.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xflexible+cutting+board.TRS0&_nkw=flexible+cutting+board&_sacat=0 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2055119.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xflexible+cutting+board.TRS0&_nkw=flexible+cutting+board&_sacat=0)

like mickeg i've thought about making one out of correx sheet, but was worried about the sharp edges

i already have the correx so if you'd like a bit to try mickeg i could send you a bit to your measurements, i have plenty of black and some white
it's worth putting in a stiffener as i wore a small hole in my black CLF where something hard (shopping) rubbed on the rack and wore through
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on April 17, 2016, 05:25:15 PM
...
i already have the correx so if you'd like a bit to try mickeg i could send you a bit to your measurements, ...

Thanks for the offer, but for now I will decline.  In USA it is often used for political signs, and this year there are likely to be a LOT of political signs going up over the next half year.  And most will be disposed soon after that.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 17, 2016, 09:25:54 PM
Thank you, All!  Such helpful and useful input for me to consider. I've read and gained something from each of your posts, but Carlos' comes closest to what I am trying to accomplish with my use and has almost the same inventory as I would expect to carry.

Any additional thoughts are most welcome, and I feel much reassured.

Now, I need to keep my eyes open for a Camper Longflap and q/r mount at a good price!

Thanks again,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: martinf on April 17, 2016, 09:31:22 PM
I've had Carradice cotton duck saddlebags (Nelson Longflap and Camper Longflap) for a long time (more than 20 years).

The Nelson stays more or less permanently on my old 700C derailleur bike, which doesn't have racks fitted, this bike now gets used only on day rides, and generally in good weather as I've gone off cleaning derailleurs now that I have a lot of hub gear bikes.

The Camper gets moved around between my bikes, I've sometimes used it for survey work (outdoors for 10 hours a day), often in fairly wet conditions, with no noticeable leakage.


After years with semi-porous homemade panniers lined with bin liners, I have become a confirmed Ortliebian, primarily for their truly waterproof characteristics. If the weather changes for the worst, I ride through it on days sometimes stretching from dawn to dusk, and use my tent only for sleeping. With this in mind, I wonder: How truly waterproof has Carradice's waxed cotton canvas proven to be for owners?

- Very good, but I use bin liner/dry bags because in very wet weather a bit of water gets in when I open the bag to take something out. The D-rings on the flap are useful for strapping wet kit onto the outside of the bag where it doesn't affect the dry stuff inside.

It seams Carradice bags need periodic freshening of the wax treatment to maintain waterproofness. Have you done this, and if so, how often? Do you re-treat it inside and out, or on just one surface, letting it seep through?

- It doesn't need doing very often. I tend to forget, its time I did my two saddlebags again as they are looking rather shabby.

Despite warmer-drier summers in recent years, Fall, Winter, and Spring in my locale tend to be wet and my bikes are stored in an unheated garage. Have you found the waxed cotton to mildew or develop mold in such conditions?

- No mildew yet. My garage is unheated and a bit damp. But both my saddlebags are fitted with a quick-release system, so can be removed easily if necessary, so I could store them inside the house if I could be bothered.

Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on April 18, 2016, 12:02:38 AM
Dan, you have fabrication skills that exceed most others, I am sure you could make a quick release pretty easily.

Consider a copy of something like this:  http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/r13.htm

And for the support that goes under, I do not know if you will put it on a bike with cantilever mounts, but some people have put the little front Nashbar rack that goes on cantilever mounts on the rear to keep things from hitting the wheel.  This of course would depend on  how high your saddle is above the wheel, as it would have to be esentially the perfect height since the rack would not adjust for height.
http://www.nashbar.com/bikes/Product_10053_10052_167593_-1___

I did a quick google search and found this example of the Nashbar rack:  https://gspiess.wordpress.com/2010/02/08/saddlebag-mount-hack/

Or, skip the Nashbar type rack and just use a bracket that clamps to the seat stays to hold the bottom of the bag.  I am sure with a piece of 5/16 inch steel rod, a die for threading, some 5/16 inch nuts, and a couple pieces of bar stock, you could make a good bracket to clamp on the seat stays.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 18, 2016, 02:47:34 AM
Thanks for the kind words and suggestion, mickeg. I'd like to do this on a budget if possible, so saving the cost of a commercial q/r is appealing; the creative juices are flowing, and I think I might have an idea...! I appreciate your included links; very thoughtful.

All my bikes have rear racks, but one goal here was to remove the rear rack from the intended bike and so shave a bit more weight from the bike to offset the touring load and bag, but on second thought, the aluminum-rod rack I'll be using doesn't weigh much, and could well support the bag from below.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: leftpoole on April 18, 2016, 08:59:58 AM
Dan,
One further small point.
You mention green as an option. My experience with other Carradice bags is that the Green/Honey have a less tough material.
Regards,
John
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: DAntrim on April 18, 2016, 09:03:59 AM
I did stumble upon a blog where he made a 'DIY' camper longflap link below.....

http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/diy-longflap-saddlebag-minimalist-bike-touring/ (http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/diy-longflap-saddlebag-minimalist-bike-touring/)

Carlos
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 18, 2016, 03:34:22 PM
Thanks so much for the additional thoughts. I'm surely leaning toward black if I buy a Carradice, John, but Carlos' link to make one has me thinking about sitting at the sewing machine once more.

I made my original panniers and handlebar bag myself and they served well for more than 30 years before I finally grew tires of replacing the bin/trash compactor liners daily on wet tours. A neighbor of some years ago made his own saddlebags, and perhaps it is time for me to think along those lines also.

Or...if I could find a deal. Hmm. We'll see!  :)

Really helpful suggestions and ideas, and now I am fleshing out my kit. It will work with an assortment of dry sacks on the rear rack and my large Ortlieb underseat bag, but it would surely be nice to take it in one bag I could detach and take with me on a shoulder strap if needed.

Your thoughts on waterproofness are especially helpful to me. I would have though sure water might have run in through the top strap mounts, but I'm guessing there is no large gap there in reality, and whatever gap there is must be shielded by the wooden dowel, fabric tension, and any overhang of the saddle and rider's posterior.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: geocycle on April 18, 2016, 05:31:41 PM
I have a green Barley and a black cadet with a QR bagman.  Colour wise I prefer the black when new although the green is ageing nicely.  Both have internal drawstring necks that IMO are a bit short but do keep rain out when the flaps are done up nice and tight.  The advantage of the QR is that you can easily take it off and carry it with a shoulder strap making it a commuting option.  The leather buckles just take a minute or so whereas the QR is instantaneous after a bit of practice. I've not reproofed either. I went for the cadet over the Nelson (same size main compartment) as I don't find the pockets very useful.

The bagman rack needs regular retightening but does hold the load OK and keeps the bag vertical.  If I do a short tour with it I would take the rack off as the panniers can't be easily fixed onto it with the bagman in place. I'm currently experimenting with the cadet sitting on the rack held by the QR without the bagman frame.  In terms of functionality, Ortlieb are hard to beat but the carradice bags look great, especially the saddlebags and can be used off the bike.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on April 18, 2016, 05:36:20 PM
Before GoreTex (yup, I was camping back in the dark ages), Kelty nylon backpacks did not have much waterproofing, Mr Kelty said that packs leak so you are better off assuming they will leak.  Mountain parkas sold as shells were often made of a blend of cotton and polyester, the cotton was supposed to swell to retard the rate that water came in.  My Tilley hat that I bought in the 1990s is cotton, it is cool to wear in the sun because it breathes well, but the cotton swells up when it get wet so water does not pour through it.  My Tilley and my old mountain parkas in the 70s were not waxed, yet they were reasonably water resistant solely from the tightness of weave that got tighter when wet.

But, jeans that also have a fairly heavy weave leak like a sieve.  So, the fabric selection and tightness of weave must be most critical.

My Carradice saddle bags (Nelson Longflap and also a Pendal) have a lining fabric inside.  You might not notice that in the photos, thus if you plan to make your own bag, you might consider a lining.  The second photo in my posting with photos had the flap open, you can see the inside of the flap is a lighter color, it is a much lighter weight fabric.  I don't know how much that adds to water resistance or stiffness, I am simply pointing out that most photos do not show a different lining fabric.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: martinf on April 18, 2016, 09:34:35 PM
If you are looking for a home made quick release rackless support system for a Carradice saddlebag, you could consider copying the Kwiklift I have on 3 of my bikes.

W.G. Lord used to make these, but they are no longer available.

I haven't photographed my own, but photos from the CTC forum should be visible by scrolling down on this link:

http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?p=130466
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 19, 2016, 07:42:06 AM
So helpful; many thanks!

In the same spirit, here is a useful link for consideration wrt to saddlebag supports and their virtues and faults:
http://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-035/000.html

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: leftpoole on April 19, 2016, 11:07:27 AM
Dan,Your thoughts on waterproofness are especially helpful to me. I would have though sure water might have run in through the top strap mounts, but I'm guessing there is no large gap there in reality, and whatever gap there is must be shielded by the wooden dowel, fabric tension, and any overhang of the saddle and rider's posterior.

Between the flap and the bag you will require plastic bags!
John
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 19, 2016, 07:11:47 PM
Quote
Between the flap and the bag you will require plastic bags!
  :o

Uh-oh.

John, can you please you tell me more?

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: leftpoole on April 19, 2016, 07:39:48 PM
The Carradice Camper has a long flap which folds so to make the bag smaller in general use.
If you want to fill to capacity the folded part simply unfolds giving lots of space. But the sides (each end ) are open to the elements. Require plastic bags.
John
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 19, 2016, 08:05:05 PM
Ah! Makes perfect sense now, John; many thanks.

I'd planned to put the tent under the long flap. I think the problem can be overcome, but I have to give it a bit more thought.

I can see I'm a ways from placing an order.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: leftpoole on April 20, 2016, 09:11:01 AM
Dan,
I use one for minimum Camping on occasion. I find it satisfactory.
John
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: martinf on April 20, 2016, 05:32:43 PM
I did stumble upon a blog where he made a 'DIY' camper longflap link below.....

http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/diy-longflap-saddlebag-minimalist-bike-touring/ (http://www.bikepacking.com/gear/diy-longflap-saddlebag-minimalist-bike-touring/)

Carlos

I have made several sets of panniers, a couple of handlebar bags and one very large saddlebag modelled on the Longflap, but with an even bigger main compartment instead of pockets. But all out of heavy grade proofed nylon fabric.

Sewing heavy grade nylon or Cordura in bag shapes is hard enough. I would be very reluctant to attempt making a saddlebag in cotton duck, I'd rather try and adapt the Carradice bag if I really wanted other features.

A few years ago I worked out that factoring in the build time and the time spent sourcing the materials it was much more expensive to make bags than buy them, except when I really needed something not available commercially.

So I bought Ortleib bags for my Raven Tour and very cheap basic panniers for the visitor bikes. The latter sometimes get abused, so I reckoned it was better to mend cheap panniers fairly frequently rather than have holes, salt and sand in expensive ones.

I still have my home made panniers from the late 1970's, they are now extremely tatty and are used mainly for local shopping when I leave the bike locked up outside the supermarket.   
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 20, 2016, 06:55:53 PM
Quote
I still have my home made panniers from the late 1970's...
Martin,

I think we made ours about the same time! I agree with all your observations above. A good set of modern, commercially produced panniers will indeed last a very long time and be reliable throughout. My homemade ones were good also...I used tempered aluminum sheet for the backing plates and formed stainless steel into mounting hooks, employing stainless steel springs as the tensioning members. A *lot* of work. I used a urethane-coated waterproofed nylon oxford, but in time the urethane rubber rotted and rolled off, leaving me with water-permeable nylon bags.  :P That's where the bin liners came in. They worked also, but wore through quickly on rough roads and then things would become seriously wet from the rainwater pooling inside the outer bags.  ::)

Finally...enough. I became a confirmed Ortliebian and my water ingress woes ended. The old bags still soldier on, but the smell of the rotted rubber is akin to a dead cat and limits their use to more utilitarian aims (i.e. hauling garden hoses and seed packets home from the store).

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Donerol on April 20, 2016, 08:28:53 PM
Sewing heavy grade nylon or Cordura in bag shapes is hard enough. I would be very reluctant to attempt making a saddlebag in cotton duck, I'd rather try and adapt the Carradice bag if I really wanted other features.

Just for info, I have sewn both heavy Cordura and heavy cotton duck, and I found the duck significantly easier. I used a domestic electric machine. The waterproof 'plastic' coating on the cordura blunted the needles quickly, and the fabric tended to slither about. On the other hand 12-oz  cotton duck was no trouble. It was only showerproof (didn't need to be waterproof) but it would have been easy to wax it after making up.

The Carradice duck is thinner than my 12-oz stuff.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: il padrone on April 22, 2016, 09:27:08 AM
I have recently acquired the Carradice Classic Saddlebag Rack (http://www.carradice.co.uk/index.php?page_id=product&under=range&product_id=136), and I am loving it. Holds the bag that little bit higher from the tyre and sits up more (easier to get access). Also it is VERY readily removable and can be transferred to any brooks saddle with seat bag loops.

(http://www.onyourbike.com/images/products/l_prod_11712.jpg)
(http://www.carradice.co.uk/product_images/20131003184020-large-4-307.jpg)
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Donerol on April 22, 2016, 10:16:08 AM
Note though that the maximum recommended load is 6Kg, which may not be enough for Danneaux's purposes. Somewhere I have seen reports of this rack breaking the tangs that slot into the bag loops when it was overloaded. Also with a heavy load there may be a risk of breaking the saddle rails - think bouncing over poor roads - as there will be quite a lot of leverage.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: rualexander on April 22, 2016, 06:26:09 PM
Note though that the maximum recommended load is 6Kg, which may not be enough for Danneaux's purposes. Somewhere I have seen reports of this rack breaking the tangs that slot into the bag loops when it was overloaded. Also with a heavy load there may be a risk of breaking the saddle rails - think bouncing over poor roads - as there will be quite a lot of leverage.
My Classic rack tangs bent the bag loops on my B17 saddle on my recent bothy mini tour on gravel roads,  it might have been a bit overloaded with my Super C Saddlebag but not too much, it definitely bounced a fair bit on rough sections. The tangs didn't bend but once the bag loops were bent the tangs could no longer hold themselves in place and the bag started falling off. I've bent the loops back now and the rack holds on again fine with my Super C Barley.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 22, 2016, 07:29:48 PM
Quote
Note though that the maximum recommended load is 6Kg, which may not be enough for Danneaux's purposes...
Duly noted; thanks!

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: martinf on April 23, 2016, 08:14:16 AM
I had the same problem as Rualexander with the Classic saddlebag support bending saddlebag loops, which is why I got the Kwiklift supports.

These normally clamp to the saddle rails, titanium on my 700C tourer so there might be a risk of saddle rail breakage. Not had any problems so far and the Kwiklift is made from aluminium alloy, so it shouldn't score the Ti.

Not an issue on my other bikes with Kwiklift, these have sprung saddles and I had to modify the Kwiklift to fit it at the bottom of the springs.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Donerol on April 23, 2016, 12:44:12 PM
But can you still get the Kwiklift?
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 23, 2016, 06:26:36 PM
Quote
But can you still get the Kwiklift?
A similar product is made by Nitto in Japan as the Saddlebag Grip R50 - 20109, sold by Rivendell and other outlets:
http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/r13.htm

It appears nicely developed and of high quality, but the price is USD$100.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: geocycle on April 25, 2016, 08:46:29 AM
I've taken my bagman support apart and just been using the QR mechanism with good results.  The cadet sits very nicely on the rack with no noticeable swing.  I'm not using any attachment to the rack although that would be an option.  This works well for me as I can mix and match pannier and saddlebag use depending on my journey.  The rack is a couple of hundred g heavier than the bagman but it is easier leaving it in situ than removing it each time I switch to the saddlebag. Whether this works for others depends on the drop between the saddle rails and the rack of course.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 25, 2016, 04:32:42 PM
I'll need to measure the saddle-to-rack gap on my bikes, Geo'. Good suggestion. Some of my rear racks are very light, so this is a possibility for me as well.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on April 25, 2016, 10:33:13 PM
I'll need to measure the saddle-to-rack gap on my bikes, Geo'. Good suggestion. Some of my rear racks are very light, so this is a possibility for me as well.

All the best,

Dan.

Don't rule out one of those racks that clamps onto the seatpost with a quick release, the center of the saddle bag can sit on one of those and those are quite adjustable for height.  That kind of rack would look a bit odd with a wide Carradice bag, but they still have a reasonable weight capacity and should not bounce too much.  But, those racks can't be set as close to the tire as some of the other racks, so that won't work if your bag is too low.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on April 26, 2016, 01:57:59 AM
Good thoughts, mickeg; I'll keep my options open.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on May 03, 2016, 07:29:57 PM
So...! A new question:

Please, does anyone have experience with a Bagman Expedition Quick-Release?

Looking closely, I see the older design of the Bagman2 has been abandoned by Carradice. It used two support struts under the aluminum-rod support hoop. Current models have returned to a hoop made of stainless rod and not supports.

To me, it looks like riding on rough roads could apply a great deal of torque to the joint where a small allen screw retains the end of the stainless rod in the aluminum saddle rail clamp. I have read reports indicating these bolts need replacement with hex head versions and threadlock, but is that enough? Are these hoop supports stable enough with a loaded bag the size of the Camper Longflap?

Comparing weights, it seems the Bagman Expedition QR is roughly comparable in weight to a lightweight rear rack made of aluminum rod. I'm beginning to think a Bagman QR saddle clamp and a rear rack might be preferable to the whole Bagman Expedition QR. 

All thoughts welcome before I splash out for something that might not suit my needs. I really would like a quick-release, but with a full bag, I think I'd like to keep the weight low. Also, I'd like to go for a more stable solution given the rough roads I will ride.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: in4 on May 03, 2016, 08:08:02 PM
Hmm FWIW Dan:

I have a Camper Longflap that is not really compatible with my Brooks Conquest; absence of saddle loops. That said I have used it for day rides. I pass the straps through the saddle springs and rest the Camper Longflap on a rack; additionally secured by male/female velcro strips. I also 'borrowed' an Estate Agent's/ Realtor's 'For Sale' sign and cut it down to use as an insert; the sign is made out of a corrugated plastic-type material that is both light and reasonably supportive. It also stops the lightly loaded Camper Longflap from drooping either side of  the rack. My point being: Perhaps a secondary support might be a consideration; more so if you intend to load your Camper Longflap up to the brim.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Bill C on May 03, 2016, 09:16:34 PM
So...! A new question:

Please, does anyone have experience with a Bagman Expedition Quick-Release.....................All thoughts welcome before I splash out for something that might not suit my needs. I really would like a quick-release, but with a full bag, I think I'd like to keep the weight low. Also, I'd like to go for a more stable solution given the rough roads I will ride.

All the best,

Dan.

the bagman wire/stainless support bracket,not worth it, the support holds small loads but anything heavy and it's like riding with stuff attached to a trampoline, i took the wire support off and use the rack for support


Dan
the newer bagmans have 4 grub screws two to lock the loop and the other two is to lock the first set of grub screws
the older ones only used two and fell apart if a grub screw came loose, the other thing worth mentioning is that the sprung sliding/draw catches are only held together with a single screw (it's the little catch arm) if the catch arm/screw comes loose then it can fire the gubbins across the road never to be found again, i know as it's happened to my old silver one (hard to explain so i'll post a pic in a bit when i get the camera out)

a bagman is a good idea but could do with some work to make it a bit stronger/more reliable (loctite)

found a pic the two little black plastic  sleeved pins are the ones i was on about, i had one work loose and drop out
the metal sprung sleeve that the go's through the bag loops shot out as it's spring loaded,
I never found and it couldn't find spares so that bagman's been drilled through for some 4mm threaded rod as a bodge up

(https://static.evanscycles.com/production/accessories/bike-bags--transport/product-image/969-638/carradice-bagman-quick-release-expedition-00103542-9999-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Donerol on May 04, 2016, 12:31:51 PM
Dan, I personally think that you'd be better using a rack to support the weight. I haven't used a Bagman myself but there are lots of reports of a tendency to bounce - it wouldn't be a problem with a smaller bag but I think it would be quite disconcerting with a full Camper, and must put quite a strain on the saddle rails.  If you do get the Bagman I would do without the support loop and either let a rear rack take some of the weight, or do without,  fasten the bottom retaining strap to the seatpost and put up with your thighs brushing the bag as you pedal.

Of course back in the day when large saddlebags were more common, people didn't bother with quick release, but strapped them up snugly to the saddle and seatpost.

It's possible, depending on your set-up, to bodge a QR solution, with hooks such as bimini clips (http://www.unicornstainless.com/fixed-bimini-clip-2/). Basically, you remove the sprung retaining bit, then put the bags straps though the slot so that the open part of the hook faces to the rear. You insert the hooks into the saddle loops, approaching the loops from behind . Then secure the bottom of the bag either to the seat post or the turned-up bit of the rack if it has one. Because the bag hangs at an angle, the hooks can't jump out of the saddle loops. It does depend on your particular geometry but I'd have thought that with your metal-working skills you could make something to fit. (Those bimini clips are bigger than they need to be.)

I sometimes hang a Barley like this, using gaiter hooks (http://www.pennineoutdoor.co.uk/small-gaitor-hooks) zip-tied directly to the wooden dowel. It works really well as a QR except that the gaiter hooks are aluminium and wear quickly - I keep looking for a better solution
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: DAntrim on May 04, 2016, 01:52:52 PM
Dan

Bagman QR saddle clamp and a rear rack

This is how I fit my carradice longflap for commuting and touring never had a problem with the setup. The actual bag support had to much 'bounce' when touring, but fine on the daily commute. I'll post a photo of it later when I get home so you can get an idea.

Carlos

Image of camper longflap and bracket...
(http://i.imgur.com/DU8ECsW.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/UJFk9bu.jpg)
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: IanW on May 04, 2016, 05:01:53 PM
I have 2 x Bagman QR expedition saddle bag mounts / supports.
I both cases I have abandoned the stainless steel wire frame support loop and I am just using the QR part of the mount (due to both saddles having no saddle bag "eyes")
In one case the additional support is provided by a separate rear rack (and this rear rack often supports a pair or Carradice SuperC rear panniers too)
I the other case I tether a Carradice Low Saddle Long Flap by its lower mount back to the seat-post where the resultant fit only just clears the rear mudguard.
When fully loaded this latter case typically fouls / sags over the rear mudguard which is less than ideal.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on May 04, 2016, 07:29:40 PM
Hi All!

I have a wonderful update on my ultralight touring scheme: A Forum friend very kindly sent me his older Carradice Camper Longflap. I am over the moon with delight and it feels like Santa paid me an unexpected visit! It is perfectly serviceable and has a lot of "character" which makes it beautiful and it even smells good, as if it has been used for camping. There are some small holes, but I can patch them with no trouble and then re-waterproof. I donated the cost of shipping to a local food bank, where it will be put to good use.

I have taken photos and attached them so you can see how it all looks. Captions tell the tale. Although I plan to use the bag on several of my bikes, the photos show it posed on my late father's bike, as it started to rain before I could photograph it on my Nomad.

Total weight including the bag itself is 6.41kg/14.1lb complete except for food, which is variable. Packed items would be good for camping from late Spring to early Fall in my locale. It holds a complete stove with fuel and cookset, sleeping bag and mattress, tent with fly and footprint, a complete spare set of cycling clothes plus cycling tights and longsleeve fleece-lined jersey for cool weather, tools and full rain gear from head to toe.

Half the rear rack is still available for cargo and the D-rings atop the flap are unused and ready to carry stuff sacks with extra food, fuel, clothing, the solar panel, whatever if needed. Still a bit of room in the center of the bag. Left pocket completely empty, right pocket only half full at best. There is still the option to add my 8.5l Large Ortlieb handlebar bag at the front of the bike so I can carry extra food, fuel, and clothing to extend my range.

The Camper Longflap is now ready for my next pair of 300-400km days. Getting everything in one bag at minimal weight means I can still make a good distance yet ride and sleep warm and dry and eat two hot meals a day for as long as food and fuel reserves last (depending on my location, these may be replenished at stores). This setup is not for everyone -- not even me, for most extended tours well away from resupply -- but should be just the ticket for this unique purpose, when I want to take a long day ride and maybe decide on the fly not to return home that night. It also allows me the option to either camp at the halfway point and sleep and explore the area or put all my effort into forward progress, effectively doubling my range over two days. All this at no real hardship. I can even watch movies or read e-books on my phone or do actual work on it while sipping a hot cup of tea before I go to sleep in my warm down bag atop a soft mattress in my dry, bug-free tent, the Carradice stored in the vestibule awaiting the next day's travels.

So delighted! This is the culmination of a 35 year-long dream to fit an entire cycle-camping setup in one bag for fast-light touring. Once attached, the Carradice Camper Longflap seems to be remarkably stable when secured to the saddle and the bicycle's rear rack. I have tried so many schemes to pack smaller and lighter for special trips, but all required increased time to fit everything just so and delayed early starts at dawn and in the rain. The present setup is almost grab-and-go and loads very quickly; it takes only 4 minutes to stow the pre-stuffed items in the bag and be on the road. In rainy weather, it can be packed while inside the dry tent. It seems a better course for me than recent bikepacking-specific bags.

I am very grateful to each of you for your thoughts and experienced input. I would like to make or buy a quick-release mount so the bag can be removed and then un/packed inside the tent if it is raining so the contents can remain dry. Right now, placing the bag's bottom on the rack is most ideal for stability -- the gap is just right and would be even better if attached either to the saddle rails or to a Bagman QR clamp alone.

The person who so kindly made this gift included a Karrimor Uplift. Mindful of the suggested weight limits on similar devices, I think it is ideal for lesser loads that would put a bit less strain on the saddle's mounting loops. The higher perch would be nice on some of my bikes and allow carrying a load along the rack beneath the bag.

One of my concerns in asking about bag supports is my penchant to ride on rough roads, even with my 700C-wheeled road touring bikes. This causes a lot of vibration and the secondary load cycles -- where the bags contents loft, then crash down -- do increase effective mounting loads. This has been such a concern in the past, I have taken to using cinch straps on my panniers. They do help, and also point out the effect on rack and mount lifespan of load-cycling unconstrained bag contents. Minimizing those impacts makes a real difference over time. I agree: For heavy loads in such a large saddlebag, it would be best to use a conventional bicycle rear rack for support -- or none at all.

One reason I am thinking of the complete Bagman QR Expedition (to match the larger Camper Longflap bag) with support hoop is to implement a future scheme to possibly travel by air without a bike. Air transport has become so expensive it might actually be less expensive to fly with just the packed Camper Longflap and a support in checked luggage for International trips, carrying my pedals and saddle in my handlebar bag as carry-on items while wearing a full suit of cycling clothing including helmet (I've done this before, draws amused comments about whether I know more than others about an impending crash...). Once landed, a bicycle could be borrowed or bought/sold/abandoned for much lower cost than flying with my own. This scheme has worked very well for Igor Kovse:
http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.co.uk/
http://www2.arnes.si/~ikovse/
It is just a thought, but if I purchased the Bagman QR complete with support hoop, the clamp could be used in daily practice while the hoop resided in the closet until needed. I still think the stainless hoop needs additional support, as was implemented briefly in the aluminum-hooped Bagman 2, where support rods were incorporated. Hmm. Perhaps I could make a bracket and braze it on to add some Carradice or Tubus rod supports and prevent undue bouncing.

Thanks again, All. Still looking forward to any additional thoughts on mounts and such.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Donerol on May 04, 2016, 08:21:18 PM
That looks really good! I'm so glad it works for you. We now eagerly await pictures of your forthcoming expeditions!
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: geocycle on May 04, 2016, 08:55:11 PM
That looks a great solution. What a terrific outcome! Thanks for sharing all the thought processes, it really helps others.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on May 04, 2016, 09:27:49 PM
...And my sincerest thanks to all of you!

I am looking forward to posting some photos of the camp all setup on some long ride soonest!  :)

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: rualexander on May 04, 2016, 09:43:48 PM
What mattress is that Dan? Looks pretty small.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on May 04, 2016, 11:27:31 PM
Rual,

The mattress is a Klymit Inertia O'Zone. It is only an air mattress, so employs no insulation of any kind. The idea with the holes is to allow the sleeping bag's insulation to expand and provide some temperature isolation instead of being fully compressed by body weight. I *think* it may work, but have not yet used the thing in cold enough climates to say for sure or to what degree or temperature.

The mattress can be used inside a sleeping bag or outside. I prefer tight-fitting "performance cut" sleeping bags so there is less dead air for me to heat. This means my bags are usually too narrow to accept the pad inside, so I use it beneath. Trying it both ways with different bags revealed no difference in warmth for me due to placement. I think I like it better outside anyway, because the bag contours and snuggles around me and the bag's zipper works more smoothly than when the stiff pad is inside. As you can see, the pad distorts badly when fully inflated, but feels okay underneath when I lay on it.

It has a built-in, attached pillow that can be inflated separately from the pad.

I think usability and efficiency depend on the user's size. It seems to be made to work ideally for people 183cm/6ft tall. I am 180cm/5ft11in and my head just goes in the middle of the pillow's "x-pocket" while my heels drop into the little sockets made for them. My sister is 5ft1in/155cm, and we found it could be made to fit her nicely if the pillow were folded forward onto the pad, effectively shortening it. This also raised the pillow, making it better for side-sleeping. Klymit make an extra-long/wide variation for taller people.

Experience with it was initially mixed. The first one I bought developed a leak on first use. It leaked from the valve, and after I put it in water to check, I found a small piece of black plastic in the bottom of the sink. I think it was a tiny bit of debris that kept the valve from sealing fully. I contacted Klymit and they sent a replacement the next day, paying for the faulty one's return. The new one has not leaked at all, and I find it suitable for side sleeping, though it is most comfortable for sleeping on my back. When it has too little air in it, I find my buttocks can touch the ground, making a cold spot. I can either add air or slide the small square of closed-cell foam I use as a sit-pad under this area as a barrier.

My preferred pad for general touring is a Nemo Tuo Standard, newly discontinued for 2016 and replaced with a less suitable model for my needs. Mine is a foam-filled 3.8cm/1.5in thick pad made in two layers with an airtight membrane between two layers and two separate fill valves. The bottom 1/3 is solid foam and is to be inflated hard to absorb rugosities; the upper 2/3 is cross-cored (no direct path for warm air to the ground) and is inflated soft for comfort. it is just the thing for use on ice-covered hardrock in exposed locations and has worked for me nicely down to -13C/8F. Below that, I take a second one and stack them for temperatures down to ~-20C-4F. Unfortunately for this Carradice go-fast application, the Nemo Standard Tuo weighs in at 1kg and fold-rolls to fit a 6l storage sack, making ti too big to carry with my other things. So far, the Klymit Inertia O'Zone has done well for me in testing down to about 7C/45F. It might go colder, but I have my doubts. I have not yet tested it in colder nighttime temps. You can see both pads in the second photo below.

Klymit's X-Frame is an even more minimalist mattress with larger voids, but I found it less successful for me: It was less comfortable for side sleeping and I had to inflate it *hard* to avoid compressing it, so it felt like I was sleeping on rails.

The Inertia O'Zone does pack small, and I bought it with the Carradice in mind. In its little stuff sack with included patch kit, mine weighs in at 410g/14.4oz and measures an actual 85mm x 180mm. The pad alone, secured by a ladies' nylon-covered hair band, weighs 390g/13.6oz complete. It stores quickly by opening the main and pillow valve, rolling quickly once to get rid of air, then folding in half and then half again for the final roll-to-stow. It is a remarkably durable fabric, especially on the underside (grey color, the top is blue; camp and patterned models weigh more). I bought mine at a special "road show" at a local big-box warehouse store where they encouraged me to try it for 90 days and return it if it doesn't work. The O'Zones are now sold for USD$7 less than I paid through Amazon.

Links:
http://www.amazon.com/Klymit-Inertia-Zone-Lightweight-Camping/dp/B00VIMSJ4S
http://www.klymit.com/inertia-ozone.html
More models by Klymit: https://www.klymit.com/sleeping-pads.html

Time will tell, but as lightweight compact air mattresses go, this one is relatively inexpensive and remarkably comfortable to date. The idea of co-opting the bag's insulation is a clever one, but the jury is still out on its ultimate success until I use it more.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on May 05, 2016, 03:43:34 AM
I see our own SJS Cycles carries a variation of the Thorn Accessory T-bar intended to mount on the seatpost in two models: With and without a sizing shim"
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-saddlebag-bracket-1725-mm-extension-222mm-45-deg-prod22924/?geoc=us
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-accessory-bar-t-shaped-1725-mm-extension-45-deg-no-shim-prod28574/?geoc=us

The bar extends at a 45 angle and the user can insert a 5mm bolt and acorn nut at each end to capture the saddlebag's straps. The buckles remain outside, and presumably can be either unbuckled or perhaps even just slid off past the nuts.
(http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/22924_1.jpg)
Anyone here used one? It looks to place the top straps in about the same position as the Bagman QR bracket alone, leaving the rest of the bag to sit atop a rear rack or to be secured to the seatpost.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: JimK on May 05, 2016, 05:14:30 AM
I use the SQR system that looks pretty similar: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/carradice-sqr-saddlebag-uplift-system-prod621/?geoc=us

(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_0964.jpg)
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: geocycle on May 05, 2016, 02:29:42 PM
If you don't have saddle bag loops then I can see the sjs extension bar being a very robust way of holding a bag.  The SQR looks similar with the added value of quick release.  IMO the bagman QR is less robust than either of these but better for situations where the bag is removed regularly ie several times a day going into shops etc and where you just want to leave it on a bike without looking too ugly! Horses for courses I suppose.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: in4 on May 05, 2016, 02:43:53 PM
Off at slight tangent but I found a review of the Nemo Mio tent that accompanies the mat mentioned by Dan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSnb8fwb_OU
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: John Saxby on May 06, 2016, 09:12:24 PM
Rual, Dan, my experience with the Klymit O-zone:

I tried one last year, as part of my investment in ultra-light and ultra-compact gear.  It's both light and compact, as advertised, and inflates quickly.  I found that, for me, there was just not quite enough air in it, especially when I sleep on my side.  I'm 5'11 and about 185-190 lbs (84 - 87 kgs) depending on the season. Perhaps the O-zone would work better with someone who's a but lighter.

So, I switched to a Thermarest Neo-Air extralite. This is marginally heavier and less compact, but much more comfortable. It's about 40-50% more expensive too, but wotcha gonna do? (shrugs)
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on May 06, 2016, 10:17:50 PM
Quote
...wotcha gonna do? (shrugs)
Go with what you find is comfortable and works for you!  ;)

Kinda hoping the Neo Air Extralite's price comes down after awhile.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: in4 on May 08, 2016, 03:31:36 PM
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thornmercuryhires.pdf

Page 5 shows 'The Master' + carradice solution.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on June 28, 2017, 05:11:00 PM
Hi All!

Update on my Carradice saddlebag carrier...

After a good deal of thought and some preliminary fabrications of my own, I decided to add a Thorn 45 Saddlebag Bracket to my last SJS Cycles order. I had considered it for some time: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11787.msg85868#msg85868

My Nomad is the flagship of my fleet and I like to keep its configuration stable while I work out new solutions on other bikes, then transfer the results to the Danneaux'mad  so it has minimal downtime.

Accordingly, I've been trialing the Thorn bracket on another bike and it looks to be working well enough to transfer over. Photos below.

The bag sits well supported by the rear rack while the upper mounting straps are configured with the buckles outside, meeting my requirements for a quick-release setup (the idea being to remove or mount the bag quickly in the rain, then take it into the dry tent to un/pack).

It also decouples the bag from the saddle, allowing the Thudbuster LT suspension seatpost to move freely without the added weight and mass of a loaded bag.

Best of all, the Thorn bracket leaves the rack itself clear so I can mount a rack-top pack if I prefer or strap on a rack-top load when touring with no interference. I added tall stainless acorn nuts to 5mm buttonhead allen bolts through the pre-drilled holes in the bracket; they serve to retain the buckled straps so they can't work off the sides of the bracket.

All in all a pretty tidy solution and available ready-made. Unfortunately, not all my bikes have this much clearance, so I will still need to fabricate a separate solution for those bikes...some have shorter Thudbuster ST sus-posts and some have rigid ones, most have rear racks.

The last photo shows a little silicone gasket I bought from an eBay vendor and slid over the seatpost. It provides a measure of weather protection to prevent water from running down the kerf at the rear of the seatpost. While not as effective as stretched piece of innertube, this looks considerable neater. Of course, I take care to generously grease my seatposts and quill stems with Phil Wood waterproof grease and remove them annually to check for galling. So far, so good over the last 35+ years.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on June 28, 2017, 05:55:50 PM
By the way...the bag and rear rack in the photos above are both level...but appear tipped forward because the bike is elevated in a rear wheel stand.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Neil Jones on June 28, 2017, 08:44:57 PM
Hi Dan,

It looks like you've come up with another well thought out, neat solution. Those T bars have so many uses don't they.

May I ask what you keep in the red pack under your Brooks? Looks like a first aid kit or maybe a rainproof.

Regards,
Neil
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on June 28, 2017, 09:02:15 PM
Hi Neil!

Thanks so much for the kind words, but in this case, all credit must go to SJS Cycles' pre-canned solution: The Thorn 45 Saddlebag Bracket. It does work a treat in this application and for the Nomad (I need to order another), but I will need to dream up something else for the other bikes. I posted figuring it might spark some interest for others with unusual requirements.

Yes, those Thorn Accessory T-bars are a wonder! I have another 55mm version (thanks Dave Simpson!) I will mill an aluminum spacer for so I can affix it to the quill stem on my tandem to hold my Ortlieb handlebar bag mount. I might hesitate in ordinary circumstances, but this quill stem has a thick-walled stainless shaft that overlaps the alloy stem insert by a bit more than the depth of the Thorn Accessory T-bar clamp. This means what would normally be an aluminum quill alone is sleeved in a stainless tube for the entire portion where the T-bar will clamp. This adds a considerable margin of safety I would not wish to risk with an ordinary aluminum quill. My goal is to lower the center of gravity for the HB bag and to also free up a bit of space atop the handlebar. So many projects, so little time!  :D

The little red bag is a hastily mounted and temporary minimalist tool kit grabbed from another bike and contains a patch kit, spare tube, and 1 tire lever. I have a larger kit intended for this bike -- an Ortlieb Large Underseat Bag -- that I will mount to the underside of the Thorn Saddlebag Bracket as soon as I can mill a bracket out of aluminum. This way, I will be able to carry a bit more in the kit if I am just going a day ride and don't need the luggage capacity of the Carradice. The Large Ortlieb will hold my wind jacket, a longsleeve thermal jersey, second (spare) mini-pump, tube, two patch kits, and my multi tool with a wee bit of room left over. I think I can use it *and* the Carradice if I plan it carefully. Photos to follow when finished.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on June 29, 2017, 12:43:25 AM
...
The little red bag is a hastily mounted and temporary minimalist tool kit grabbed from another bike and contains a patch kit, spare tube, and 1 tire lever. I have a larger kit intended for this bike ...

On most of my bikes I have a bottle or cylindrical bag in my water bottle cage below the downtube with that stuff.  On a bike tour, that stuff is in a pannier and the cage is returned to its intended purpose, carrying water bottles.  If I have a spare patch kit of the self-adhesive variety lying around, that gets put in there too.  Came in handy last year when I had to patch a tube to get home, the spare tube was not enough that day.

First photo, I sprayed a Parmesan cheese jar black, it fit perfect.  The clear plastic part of the jar, sprayed the inside so that I do not rub the paint off with the cage.

Second photo, a nylon bag intended for that purpose.

I have also used an older Skippy peanut butter jar, but the newer bottles are downsized and do not fit well in a cage.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: David Simpson on June 29, 2017, 12:54:17 AM
On most of my bikes I have a bottle or cylindrical bag in my water bottle cage below the downtube with that stuff.

Thanks, George, for another great idea!

I sprayed a Parmesan cheese jar black, it fit perfect.

I'll need to take my bottle cage to the grocery store and find something that fits.

Grocery store employee: Can I help you, sir?
Me: Yes, I'd like the cheapest product in the store that fits this bottle cage.
Grocery store employee: ???

Second photo, a nylon bag intended for that purpose.

That's a nice bag. Do you know the brand or model?

Thanks,
DaveS
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: Danneaux on June 29, 2017, 01:51:46 AM
Quote
On most of my bikes I have a bottle or cylindrical bag in my water bottle cage below the downtube with that stuff.
That's a clever repurposing that came out well, George; nicely done and looks good!

For about the last decade, I've been using SOMA Tool Bottles. They come in two sizes to fit in standard bottle cages. The larger version has a notch in it to catch on the "retention finger" at the end of the cage to prevent ejection over big bumps. BBB, Shimano, and a number of other vendors make nearly identical models. They hold a surprising amount. Pictured below is the large size. Best prices can be found on eBay if you search for "Bicycle Tool Bottle" (no quotes). They're available in a variety of molded colors and are waterproof and some are adjustable for size/length, many for USD$5.95 including shipping. I built my Folder with four bottle mounts so I could have three water bottles plus the tool bottle.

It is also possible to use a standard wide-mouth water bottle as a tool bottle. The Zefal Magnum 1l bottle is an ideal candidate and holds a lot.

[Figuring someone might wonder/ask, the cut-down combination box/open end wrenches shown in the photo are used to tighten the 14mm swingarm pivot bolts on my Danneauxbuilt Folder]


All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: mickeg on June 29, 2017, 03:38:32 AM
On most of my bikes I have a bottle or cylindrical bag in my water bottle cage below the downtube with that stuff.

Thanks, George, for another great idea!

I sprayed a Parmesan cheese jar black, it fit perfect.

I'll need to take my bottle cage to the grocery store and find something that fits.

Grocery store employee: Can I help you, sir?
Me: Yes, I'd like the cheapest product in the store that fits this bottle cage.
Grocery store employee: ???

Second photo, a nylon bag intended for that purpose.

That's a nice bag. Do you know the brand or model?

Thanks,
DaveS

If you have a water bottle that is the exact diameter you need, take a strip of paper and wrap around the bottle and mark on that paper what the circumference of your bottle is.   Then put that strip of paper in your wallet.  Then in the store, if you see a good candidate for a bottle, take out the paper and wrap around it to see how close it is.

When I spray painted the bottle, it was clear plastic so I sprayed the inside of the bottle so that the paint does not get scrapped off on the cage.  The lid was not clear so I sprayed the outside on that.

A couple years ago I bought a jar of Almonds that came in a jar of perfect size, I kept the bottle instead of discarding it when empty but have not yet found a bike that needed it.

The bag, I bought it years ago so I doubt that it is still available.  Made by Sci Con.

At one time I bought a bottle made by Zefal that I use on my newest bike.

The red bike in my first photo, that frame did not have lower bottle cage mounts, so I used the old style straps like we used to use on all of our cages decades ago when frames did not have bottle cage mounts.
Title: Re: Carradice questions
Post by: sd on October 04, 2017, 01:01:03 PM
Sorry could not bring myself to go through the whole thread, so this point may already have been made. Speaking from experience cotton duck is 100% waterproof at all times. When wet the thread expands to block all the minute holes including stitching. I have had mine 15 years and never has a drop of water got in. I have cycled in torrential rain. My tent has been blown away in storm and my carradice c, left outside the tent did not let a drop of water in.
A few years ago I started proofing the outside as I decided I didn't want to carry wet bags all the time. At times I would expect the bags to be wet most of the winter. I suspect there is a decent reduction in weight having bags that are dry no matter how hard it rains. I bought a half gallon fabsil canvas waterproofer from millets. The waterproofing doesn't last for ever but it's nice see all the water beading on the bags. Application is with a brush and takes minutes.