Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: mickeg on February 20, 2015, 12:41:16 am
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I am considering a off road trip where I might fit a suspension fork to my Nomad Mk II that would complicate the use of front panniers. Thus, I would likely put all my gear on the rear rack, handlebar bag, and possibly a small bikepacking type frame pack. For past trips I have used Ortlieb Classic rollers, front rated at 25 liters and rear rated at 40 liters. Sometimes with the Ortlieb 31 liter duffel on top in back, sometimes the Carradice Longflap Nelson on top in back, and sometimes no additional bag in back. Thus, for past trips I had a capacity (without handlebar bag) that ranged from 65 to 96 liters of gear.
I am looking at the following rear panniers, considering which to buy:
- Carradice Carradry 58 liter.
- Altura Dryline 56 liter.
- Altura Orkney 56 liter.
All of the above are in my price range with shipping cost. I am in USA, have never seen any of these panniers, none of these are sold in stores here. Thus I would be buying without an opportunity to compare them in the store.
Those of you that have used the Carradry or Altura panniers, please provide some advice on which you think are the best. They would be used off-road away from civilization. I have not ruled out the Super C, but for now I am not leaning in that direction. But if you think the Super C is the best, feel free to say so.
At this time I am leaning towards the Carradry, simply because I like the construction of the Ortliebs and if the Carradry uses similar materials and seam welding, that is a positive to me. But, I have read some on-line reviews of the front Carradry that spoke of low quality, but the reviews for the rears all were very positive about the quality and durability. The Altura reviews I have read were also quite positive on quality and durability. One older link on this forum indicates that the Carradry are made in Asia (unlike the cotton ones made in UK), I do not know where the Altura bags are made but I am more interested in quality than country of manufacture. It is my understanding that all of them are of comparable weight.
I have several different racks I can use them with, I think the Tubus Logo EVO is my most sturdy rack. If they did not fit well on that rack I also have the Surly rear rack and a couple different RackTime racks. I do not have a Thorn rack.
Thank you in advance for your advice and suggestions:
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Mickeg,
I have no experience with the bags you asked about, but can offer the suggestion that if even more space is needed, Ortlieb's detachable accessory pockets can be fit to any pannier or backpack without compromising waterproofness. They have roll-top dry-bag construction and are waterproof with a capacity of 3l. More information on them here:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ortlieb-outer-pocket-small-for-ortlieb-rear-panniers-of91s-prod5847/?geoc=us
An even larger 3.5l size recommended for use on luggage other than panniers (see SJSC's note) is also available:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/ortlieb-outer-pocket-large-for-backpacks-and-drybags-of91l-prod19371/?geoc=us
Perhaps such pockets would prove handy on your backpack if not on the panniers. They detach and can be used on a belt for hikes away from the bike. Ortlieb also offer a mesh bag for storing damp items/helmets and another detachable accessory for the same mounts that holds bottles. If those allowed you to move items from the inside of your panniers to outside, whatever bags you choose would be made effectively larger. I have all three items but have not yet attached them to my panniers.
Hopefully helpful,
Dan.
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Arkel make a 54 liter pannier. Not sure if it fits your price range, but, keep in mind that it would ship free from their US warehouse, so no import fees required. I have a smaller set of their panniers and can vouch for their quality.
Arkel also have a fairly good US dealer network, so you may be able to have a look at them before purchase if you are fortunate enough to live near one.
Best of luck
Ron
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I used the Altura 56 litre on my 30 day around Scotland tour last June.
Plenty of very wet weather at times. No leaks.
Quite a basic design. One outside pocket and an inside flap kind of pouch.
All I can say it that it did exactly what was expected of it.
I'm not sure how it could have been better. Can these things be exciting?
For my next tour to Tajikistan I'll be taking them with front Ortlieb panniers.
Only Ortlieb because I picked them up cheap on eBay a few years ago.
Matt
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Polish company Crosso make a couple of 60 litre pairs.
http://crosso.pl/en/item/bicycle-equipment/
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Additional thought: Carradice do their old man mountain rack system that accomodates full sus forks and disc brakes. http://www.carradice.co.uk/~carra/index.php?page_id=category&category_id=35.
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I use Super C bags for all my needs (saddlebag/handlebar bag/front/rear panniers). I love them, they wear well and I've never had a problem with them being waterproof enough.
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Don't forget to buy some spare spokes for the extra weight that you'll be carrying.
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Silly question maybe, but have you considered downsizing your gear instead of increasing load in the back? Lightweight tent etc. can make a great difference in the load capacity you need...
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I am aware of the outer pockets for the Ortliebs, but would rather not go that route.
Spare spokes, yeah already packed. I use 36 spokes, not 32, thus a bit more strength. Rohloff wheel is undished which adds some additional strength too.
Arkel make a 54 liter pannier. Not sure if it fits your price range, but, keep in mind that it would ship free from their US warehouse, so no import fees required. I have a smaller set of their panniers and can vouch for their quality.
Arkel also have a fairly good US dealer network, so you may be able to have a look at them before purchase if you are fortunate enough to live near one.
Best of luck
g
Ron
Thanks. A friend has the Arkel GT-54, he took them on a 78 day trip. I went on a 6 day trip with him so I have seen his Arkels in use. Also, I went on a group trip (16 people) and one guy did not use front panniers, he had all his gear on the back rack of his Americano, he used the GT-54 panniers too. The Arkels look nice and have quite a following, plus local stores sell them. But they are about 3 to 4 times more costly than I want to pay.
On Crosso, I had found almost no information on them in my research so they fell off my list. Nobody mentioned the really big Jandd panniers, but they also fell off my list due to cost. I am also aware of the really big Axioms. In my research I got my list down to Carradice and Altura before I posted this question.
I used the Altura 56 litre on my 30 day around Scotland tour last June.
Plenty of very wet weather at times. No leaks.
Quite a basic design. One outside pocket and an inside flap kind of pouch.
All I can say it that it did exactly what was expected of it.
I'm not sure how it could have been better. Can these things be exciting?
For my next tour to Tajikistan I'll be taking them with front Ortlieb panniers.
Only Ortlieb because I picked them up cheap on eBay a few years ago.
Matt
Great. Thank you.
Additional thought: Carradice do their old man mountain rack system that accomodates full sus forks and disc brakes. http://www.carradice.co.uk/~carra/index.php?page_id=category&category_id=35.
Yes there are racks that fit onto the skewer, but a front suspension really works best if you don't have a lot of weight on that end of the fork. Motorcyclists talk about "unsprung weight" on this issue. Tubus used to make a rack, I think it was called the Swing, that would hold front panniers with a suspension fork that got around this problem. But I think that rack is no longer available. Last summer I saw one of those racks on a bike that had 100,000 km on it, the rack had been repaired a few times but was still in use.
But, for simplicity and compactness, I am trying to get my gear down to two panniers and handlebar bag. A bikepacker frame bag is also a possibility.
I use Super C bags for all my needs (saddlebag/handlebar bag/front/rear panniers). I love them, they wear well and I've never had a problem with them being waterproof enough.
Thank you. Yesterday I looked at some Thorn brochures and saw several photos of (I think it was Andy Blance?) cycling in far off places with a suspension fork, Super C rear panniers and no front panniers. I also take that as a strong recommendation. If it was Andy in the photo, I assume he is familiar with all of the various pannier options and took what he felt was best.
Silly question maybe, but have you considered downsizing your gear instead of increasing load in the back? Lightweight tent etc. can make a great difference in the load capacity you need...
Yup. My last tour, excluding food and alcohol, my Carradice Nelson Longflap only carried two inner tubes. Thus, I had gotten down to 65 liters, not counting handlebar bag and two inner tubes that could have gone into the handlebar bag. But with several days of food the Longflap was full. On that trip I even took an air mattress instead of my self inflating Thermarest, the air mattress weighed more but was more compact to fit in the pannier better.
I have seen people that carry very little gear but I am not the kind of person that would enjoy a trip if I had to eat all my food with a spork out of a single aluminum cup. I want a second pair of shoes for when the first pair gets soaked, I want enough warm clothing so that I am comfortable when I have to scrape the frost off my bike, etc.
I plan to get my gear down to two panniers (big ones), handlebar bag, possibly a frame bag like bikepackers use. Then my expendables like food and water would either go into the Longflap or a drybag on top of the panniers.
If I make a bikepacking frame bag, that would likely be about 9 liters of volume. I have sewed camping gear before, I am sure I could make a nice frame bag, that is on my list of "maybes", but I would like to get my gear down to the point where I do not have to make that bag - plus then I would not lose two water bottle cages.
Thank you everyone.
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I have used both the Altura Orkneys and an earlier version of the dryline.
Regarding Orkneys:
The rack hook is flimsey and they tend to come off eventually, they are no comparison in strength to Ortlieb and Vaude designs. (Not the top hooks but the lower to stop bags swaying).
I am convinced by there waterproof-ness but fabric is more vulnerable to been cut than alternatives.
They have very limited structure in the back panel so if you have a minimal rack support and they are not full they can sway into rear mudguard/wheel.
The protective feet on bottom of panniers are sewn on so inevitably the threads get cut over time and they come off.
Otherwise good panniers which did not wear out in 4,000 miles of touring. I would pay more for the tougher fabric of the orkneys.
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A bikepacker frame bag is also a possibility.
Mikeg, I'm thinking of getting a Revelate Tangle frame bag (large), which will fit my Raven nicely, swallow a lightweight tent and have space for the inevitable odds & ends as well. Looks like a great product for about USD 70.
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I have used the Altura dryline 56ltr bags the past 3 years and have never had an issue with water ingress, neither are they showing any signs of wear and the mounting clips have never worn loose.
The only downside for me is that they are a bit large for my needs, so will be getting a set of Supper C's (28 ltrs) and couple them with the longflap saddlebag will provide all the space I need.
A review on the carradice.....
http://tomsbiketrip.com/carradice-super-c-rear-pannier-review/
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A note on the CarraDry panniers - I believe that these are not made by Carradice themselves, but imported.
However, as the UK made cotton duck ones are, at best, of "agricultural" quality, this need not make any difference!
Having said that, the canvas ones are sufficiently waterproof in real world use and are the most resistant to damage panniers I have used.
And cotton duck ages nicely and just looks right!
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I have tried a few brands of panniers but have ended up with Carradice Super C panniers, augmented by a Revelate Tangle bag in the frame and a Revelate Sweetroll under the handlebars with my Exped Downmat and chair kit in it.
Julian.
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I would like thank everyone that provided input based on their personal experience with the panniers that I was considering buying. It was very helpful.
I decided to order the Carradry panniers. They arrived yesterday. I think they will be exactly what I need.
I changed my mind several times on which panniers to get. At times I was leaning towards Altura. And at other times the Carradry. And the Altura ones, I went back and forth on which model. I could not find a retailer that had the Super C at a good price with shipping to USA, so the Super C fell off my list pretty early.
To clarify some of my needs, I already have Ortieb Backrollers but I am looking for larger volume panniers for one or two specific trips where I would not be using front panniers. I expect to use my Backrollers for most tours, I do not anticipate a huge amount of use with these new ones. Thus, I was more focused on low cost and the cost of shipping, not long term durability. Rack attachment points are important too, but it was less critical than cost since they are from reputable firms that are unlikely to sell anything bad.
The best price in US Dollars with shipping and without VAT that I could find for each are as follows:
- Carradry $100.26
- Altura Dryline 56L $103.68
- Altura Orkney 56L $129.60
- Super C with one tin of wax $197.39
The day I ordered them, I actually changed my mind twice during the couple hours before I ordered them. One reason that I ordered the Carradry is that I found two YouTube videos that described them and I could see how the panniers attached to the rack. The Altura ones, I could not find any good photos or other sources that showed how they attach to the racks. Now for the funny part - when the Carradry ones arrived, that is when I learned that Carradice have modified their rack attachment system again, thus I got something slightly different than I expected. But, they look like they will be perfect for my needs, so this surprise was not unpleasant.
Thank you again to everyone that provided input.
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Hi mickeg!
Thanks for the thoughtful followup and final comparo on the panniers you considered. This is bound to be useful to others in future selections.
Glad you found just what you needed.
Best,
Dan.
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Too late, but in case this is useful for another person... I would recommend the ones I have: Crosso panniers.
They are very big, they have pockets for organizing and they are totally waterproof.
The ones we have and we have traveled with for the last 14 months are Crosso Expert.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3920/15157426581_460124169e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/p6pLR4)Lake viewpoint in the Alps (https://flic.kr/p/p6pLR4) by TheCrazyTravel.com (https://www.flickr.com/people/59085249@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5594/14095139451_bb32aa2398_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ntxgTH)Cycling next to the beach (https://flic.kr/p/ntxgTH) by TheCrazyTravel.com (https://www.flickr.com/people/59085249@N06/), on Flickr
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5525/14141600608_7dba8a9c40_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nxDpb9)Making an effort (https://flic.kr/p/nxDpb9) by TheCrazyTravel.com (https://www.flickr.com/people/59085249@N06/), on Flickr
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Great photos!
Thanks for the kick up the proverbial!!
Nich
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I use a 750ml black water bottle in the bottle cage underneath to store heavier items like tools. (i can get stuff like spoke spanner, multi tool , tyre levers, spare chain link, and other bits in there) I did this for 2 reasons, one was to put the weight more central and low but also cos the rear pockets of my panniers would wear holes in with the heavy tools rubbing away the fabric.
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a bit late here ... but after various other rear bags I had ordered a pair of Carradice super C's and they fast became my favorite bags. One reason is that I found waterproof bags would steam up on us, in the humid southeastern summers and one wet, stinky garment would ripen the whole bags worth of clothes in an hour. Yuck. So separate dry bags inside the carradice for organization is how we roll now, and I really like the huge single compartment the super C has.
I use one side for clothes and the other for the tent and tools. Sleeping bag goes inside a medium size a alpkit bag on top of the rear rack. In our conditions I found that a dry bag is too much of a vapour seal and the contents has to be protected as well anyways for keeping certain items dry whilst living out of the bags. So the Carradice bags are perfect for that in that they breathe a lot better while still keeping contents dry.
The other thing that makes the Carradice standout is their mounting system. It is manual, so there is not the same danger of a hook not being put on properly - as happens to me often enough on my quick release systems to make me wonder about my basic intelligence. :D
The Carradice clicks in very surely and stays put and I like that it slides without the steps that many bags have so you can get a more perfect fit on your racks, with no sliding around. Also, I use three hooks per side, why not? :)
Until recently I did not know that each Carradice bag is made by one person, and that it is signed by that person. So that means that I have two bags by Pricilla, and one each by Sue and Janet. The Audax super C should be here this week - the first thing I shall do is check which human being made it. It's kind of nice to have that personal connection in our day and time and one further small reason to do business with the company. British bags on a British bike. Perfect! ;)
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UPDATE
So, I start packing my new Carradry panniers for a trip I leave for in a week. I wanted these because I was afraid my Ortliebs would be too small. At 58 liter, the Carradry should be 45 percent larger than the Ortlieb Backrollers (rated at 40 liter) that I have been using.
Looking at the photos, maybe 20 or 25 percent larger, but not 45 percent. I will have to start thinking about what to leave out for this trip.
Since I will be using a suspension fork for this trip with no front panniers, I also got a frame bag, but I think that is only about 5 liters. (The photo of the frame bag is from before I switched front forks.)
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Thanks for the update, Mickeg. The news bags look good, and the integrated external pocket is nice.
Please, can you tell us a bit about the nature of your upcoming tour? The conditions, how far, and general location so we can better appreciate why you need the big bags? Is it a solo tour, or semi- or fully supported? Will you be carrying your food and cooking? Any idea what weather or altitude you can expect? Sounds interesting!
Best,
Dan.
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New Ortliebs seem to be taking it to a new level (http://www.outdoor-show.com/od-en/press/exhibitors-releases-detail.php?ListeID=1943&sMode=detail) - 70L Back-roller Pro. Just launched at Eurobike I believe.
(http://www.outdoor-show.com/od-wAssets/daten/pressefach/fotos/1943.jpg)
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I would assume those 70 liter panniers are intended for tandems.
Thanks for the update, Mickeg. The news bags look good, and the integrated external pocket is nice.
Please, can you tell us a bit about the nature of your upcoming tour? The conditions, how far, and general location so we can better appreciate why you need the big bags? Is it a solo tour, or semi- or fully supported? Will you be carrying your food and cooking? Any idea what weather or altitude you can expect? Sounds interesting!
Best,
Dan.
I will start a new thread since it is quite off topic. New thread here:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11321.0
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I would assume those 70 liter panniers are intended for tandems.
<nods> I think that is a reasonable assumption. It can be really tough to cram all the things needed for two people into the usual HB bag, two small front and two larger rear panniers. When my Dutch touring partner came for a visit a few years back, I had to also hook-up one one of my homemade trailers, but we also took everything but the kitchen sink -- no, wait...we took that also, and his Dutch Army tank-driver's boots for hiking once at our back-country campsite. I hope I never again carry so much, either in mass or in volume.
Ah, well, it made for a lit of fun and we "discovered" the trailer had a workable maximum capacity of 125lb/56.7kg and the lot -- tandem, trailer, both riders and all that stuff we carried including food and lots of water -- weighed in at 600lb/272kg and did fine on gravel logging roads using 26x1.5in road slicks. No tread on the tires, but I have to think the sheer weight did something for traction as we never spun-out.
With a pair of these 70l rear panniers, I might have been able to leave the trailer home? Lotsa stuff but lotsa fun and everyone came out the other side with a smile.
I have occasionally seen tandems with 40l bags both front (on mid-rider or platform front racks) and rear as well as a handlebar bag. Still not the equivalent of a 4-pannier setup for the single rider, but much closer.
Best,
Dan.
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Hmm.....
40L panniers on the front. 70L on the rear. Ortlieb X-plorer drybag rucksack for racktop bag - up to 59L (I only use about 30L max). Ultimate Large handlebar bag 8.5L for captain. Ultimate Med for stoker 6L.
Gives a total of 183.5L. Quite a lot really :D ;D
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Result of this evening's experiment: a 15 lb bag of dog food fits inside a Carradice Super-C rear pannier, with room to spare!
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That's a good-sized bundle, Jim!
I was pretty astonished to see the size of the petrol cans (jerrycans) AndyBG managed to put in his!
Carradice bags (of all types) are pretty remarkable.
All the best,
Dan.