Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Battery Charging from a Dynamo => Topic started by: j1of1 on February 14, 2015, 10:10:39 pm
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I want to connect a Sinewave Revolution USB charger to my SON 28 which is currently powering my front light. I see two options:
1 I could piggyback the wires of the Sinewave Revolution onto connector where the light connects to the SON 28, but that leaves very little room between the fork and where the the connector attaches to the SON 28 on the hub. Furthermore I think it would be a miserable task to try to change the front tire with a piggyback connector especially if with the front racks installed (never mind panniers being attached to the front racks!).
2. Another option is to cut the existing light's wire somewhere between where it currently connects to the SON 28 and where it goes into the light. That would require some significant, but not impossible splicing work. I'm a little hesitant to do that as means cutting my Edelux's wires that run from the connectors at the hub right into the light - and there is no margin for error as there is no extra wire between the hub and the light.
I'm hoping someone can share their experience attaching the Sinewave to the SON 28 that already has a light running from it.
Thanks in advance.
Jan
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Jan,
I would suggest using piggyback connectors at the hub to supply the Sinewave Revolution anf the headlight *and then* cutting off the leads for both the light and the charger near the hub, leaving short stubs several centimeters long and attaching connectors to both ends of the cut wires.
This way, the piggybacked spade connectors can be left attached to the SON dynamo terminals, and the wires can be "broken" easily when desired for a wheel change using the secondary connectors. I have been very pleased with my own setup arranged this way and it has proven to be unproblematic over time and with hard use in difficult conditions (rain, snow, cold, heat, alkali dust). A variety of connectors can be used, but the hub connectors that can be so problematic to remove with cold or wet fingers can stay attached to the hub where they don't come in to play and are no longer a bother.
Best,
Dan.
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Mine is not the only way, simply *a* way to accomplish the task, Jan. If you would find photos and descriptions of my setup useful, I have them in both my Sherpa and Nomad galleries at the following links:
Danneaux's Sherpa:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg17113#msg17113
Danneaux's Nomad:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg38847#msg38847
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg38853#msg38853
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg39091#msg39091
Danneaux's Extrawheel trailer: (uses the same basic setup, shown in attached photo below)
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4953.msg41441#msg41441
While it is possible to feed the wire into the hub's connectors with a direct shot from above and following the fork blade, I chose to use a "drip loop"/strain relief approach and come in from below so water could not possibly enter the hub through the connectors, as some fora reports indicate may be possible. It also allows for a little extra length in case of a snag while underway.
Best,
Dan.
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Jan,
I use a Sinewave Revolution on my Raven, hooked up to SON 28 hub. The hub also powers as Trelock headlight (40 lumens). (I use battery-powered tail lights.)
I have the same setup as Dan describes--indeed, I followed his scheme in wiring my own hub, Sinewave, and headlight.
Sinewave sell piggyback connectors which can be mounted on the tabs of the SON28 hub. You'll need to add connectors to your wires for the Sinewave and your headlight. Again, the Sinewave comes complete with female spade connectors which mate with the male tabs on the hub. Following Dan's advice, I also cut the wiring for both Sinewave & headlight about 10 cms north of the hub, allowing for a drip loop to reduce the chance of water corroding the hub terminals. I used Dean's micro-plug connectors (2 pairs, one set for each wire), and relearned enough about soldering to solder the wires to the connectors. Because I was really a beginner, the job was a bit fiddly and the final product nowhere near as professional as Dan's. But, with the connectors installed, changing the front wheel is much easier than it would be, if I had to remove the spade connectors from the piggyback connectors on the hub.
(I learned about the value of a drip loop the hard way, by the way. The magneto points on an ex-comp scrambler I had rebuilt had a breather tube attached. Water from a washing hose--not mine--found its way into the points because I had not installed a drip loop, with predictably awful results. An ace electrician in my neighbourhood rescued the situation, 'cos he had a reliable source for points on a 50-year-old competition magneto, but it cost me a bit...)
One could also install a break-with-connectors in the wiring near the fork crown, to allow removal of the fork assembly without removing the light and the Sinewave. I chose not to do that, reckoning that the few times I'd have to remove the fork, it would be a quick and simple matter to unhook both the Sinewave & my headlight.
On the location of my Sinewave: I have it on the lower side of the vertical bar on my Thorn accessory bar which holds the mounting bracket for my handlebar bag. This makes the Sinewave very handy for charging items in my h/bar bag, and also shields the charger from the weather. When it's not in use, I cover the USB port with a small strip of black electrician's tape, to keep out water or dust.
Can send/post some photos of my setup if you like -- please let me know.
Good luck, John
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Dan
I'm envious of your ability to do such fine electrical work. Your suggestion to have a short segment running from the SON 28 to a connector makes sense and I'll probably copy your work. Maybe you can give me some suggestions on where I can get some BASIC connectors (the Dino connectors you use are great, but I don't think I could even consider do such fine soldering - I just don't have the equipment). The multi-strand wire from the Sinewave Revolution is 24 AWG and I can only find connectors for up to 22 AWG and I don't know (because I have cut the wires yet) the AWG for the wires going to my light. I'm open for suggestions...
Thanks Jan
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Hi Jan!
Thanks for the kind words.
I think the connectors you may be looking for are the gold Supernova connectors used by Julian (JulK) and Jim (JimK) to wire their bikes. The ends are not quite so small as the Dean's connectors and therefore easier and quicker to solder with many of the same advantages.
I did a quick custom search of the Forum archives for you and I think you'll find the needed references in text and photos below:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3402.msg15518#msg15518
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2490.msg12005#msg12005
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6221.msg37327#msg37327
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2521.msg18049#msg18049
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4016.msg18146#msg18146
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5263.msg44803#msg44803
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3035.msg27511#msg27511
All the best,
Dan.
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Jan, to follow Dan's references once more, Sinewave also sells the gold supernova connectors, so you could easily get a few of those when you buy the piggyback connectors for the hub terminals.
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That drip loop may work great on a Son, but I think with some other hubs it might not. I believe that the vent hole for the SP Dynamo hubs is under the axle, connecting the wires so they go downward out of the hub like you did on the SP might put the vent hole where more water could get into the hub. This is a guess on my part, I have not seen any documentation of that hole being a vent hole, but I can't imagine any other purpose for it. SP is clear in their documentation that the connector is supposed be on top, not below the axle.
I have no knowledge of how Shimano hubs are vented.
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That drip loop may work great on a Son, but I think with some other hubs it might not. I believe that the vent hole for the SP Dynamo hubs is under the axle, connecting the wires so they go downward out of the hub like you did on the SP might put the vent hole where more water could get into the hub. This is a guess on my part, I have not seen any documentation of that hole being a vent hole, but I can't imagine any other purpose for it. SP is clear in their documentation that the connector is supposed be on top, not below the axle.
I have no knowledge of how Shimano hubs are vented.
Hi Mickeg!
I became curious about that apparent vent hole in the SP dynamos and the orientation of the connector, so I wrote Shutter Precision and received a reply this evening.
Vic Chen of SP wrote saying their hubs use no barometric compensation and notes SON are the only dynamo maker to include this feature on a dynamo hub and notes other dynamo makers do not vent their hubs (This feature was incorporated into SON hubs in 2002. See: http://www.nabendynamo.de/wir/chronik_en.html It is a "feature", but I do not know if it is patented). He also noted Shimano has the biggest share of the current dynamo market, is also unvented, and no one complains about water entry on them.
Regarding connector orientation, he said the connector can point up or down and can be placed on either the left or right side. He further said the hub is marked with arrows to indicate rotation direction, and while it is okay for the hub to spin in either direction, efficiency is greatest in the direction of the arrows.
Connector "handedness" is very important with some SON units. North American distributor Peter White cautions... Most versions of the SON28 and SON20 hub made between 2001 and 2011 must be aligned in the fork so that those connectors are on the right (chain) side of the bike. If you have an older SON28 hub with a black painted center section, SONXS, SONXS100, SON20R or SONdelux it makes no difference which way you align the hub in the fork. And with the new SON hubs from 2012 [SON28 Klassik = No, SON28 New = Yes], you again have the freedom to place the hub in either orientation. The connectors can be on either side of the bike.
I'm not sure about Shimano.
Further, Shimano and Sanyo dynohubs do also ground to the frame via the axle, while the SON axle is electrically isolated (the SL model is an exception...it is intended to connect to contacts placed on the dropout faces).
By the way, 12Volt/6.2Watt light systems (a new German standard) are coming. Schmidt (SON) have developed a 12Volt-SON which fits the new standard and at 70% is rated higher on efficiency than the 6v model. SON is waiting to start series production until after headlights meeting this standard become available. Once these hit the market, watch out, as the higher voltage and current will allow for a number of advances in lighting as well as charging.
All the best,
Dan.
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Interesting. Thanks for checking. Maybe what I assumed was a vent hole is part of the way they assemble and disassemble the hub?
If I did not already have a hub, I would say that the new 12v standard is good news, but since I have a hub already that I will not replace, that news makes me more of a Luddite. This is the first that I have heard of that.
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Once these hit the market, watch out, as the higher voltage and current will allow for a number of advances in lighting as well as charging.
Ummm...like mickeg, I'll stick with what I've got, & just paid loadsa $$ [€€] for. Reckon I'll compensate by adjusting my expectations--easier & cheaper, and can be finely calibrated.
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I'm too deeply (in)vested to change also. The standards are there, but the lamp makers have not yet caught up or don't see the present need to develop. SON are wise to have their dynamo all developed...but for now there's no market without the lights to match.
Still, it seems to be coming, and would open up a number of possibilities, including faster charging of high-draw gadgets.
It'll be interesting to see how the market develops -- and indeed *if* it does. At present, German lighting is determined by the StVZO/TA, the German rulebook for vehicles on the road, including bicycles. The last overhaul allowed the use of lower-output dynamos for powering more efficient LED lighting. I think this latest is an attempt to accommodate future developments. The present 6v/3w dynamo has a huge installed base and meets the needs of a majority of cyclists for worry-free, on-demand lighting, primarily for commuting. It has become even more practical now even the meanest LED lighting far exceeds the best incandescent lights of the past.
I have no way of knowing for sure, but I suspect these high-powered dynamos might initially be intended for use on pedelecs and e-bikes. The output in both voltage and amperage would allow the hubs to either replenish the on-board battery to a degree or minimize losses -- perhaps by allowing auto-switching of lighting from battery power at rest (as a standlight without capacitors) to dyno-powered while under way, allowing more of the battery to be used for propulsion, thus extending range. Or perhaps it would be used to power autoshifting stepper motors while allowing simultaneous lighting and full power and charging of gadgets.
My prediction: In five to ten more years -- if that long -- the electrically-assisted bike will become the norm in the marketplace rather than the exception. This has vast implications for a decline in fitness benefits, but I wouldn't be surprised to see even hardcore touring bikes equipped with a "boost" instead of low gearing for hill work. One of the most satisfying elements of cycling for me is seeing my physical effort directly translated into forward motion, allowing distances both faster and further than possible on foot in the same amount of time. I'm hanging onto my derailleur and Rohloff-geared bikes and building another Fixie. Should see me through for awhile.
All the best,
Dan.
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Interesting news about the 12V hubs. Like mickeg and John, I have a relatively new hub. I suppose the only option is to ride 100000+km in the next few months so that it wears out and I am forced to buy a fancy new hub.
- Dave
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This has vast implications for a decline in fitness benefits, but I wouldn't be surprised to see even hardcore touring bikes equipped with a "boost" instead of low gearing for hill work. One of the most satisfying elements of cycling for me is seeing my physical effort directly translated into forward motion...
I reckon you're right, Dan, in your reading of the growing market for e-assisted bikes, especially for urban transport. I've seen quite a few articles in the European press highlighted this in recent years. Who'da thought it, eh? -- the decoupling of effort and reward becoming the norm rather than the exception. The logic & allure of the market trumps most things, especially as the boomers their (our?) buying power ease into geezerhood. During my trip to Prince Edward County last June--the County's economy flourishing in no small part because the area is a haven for retirees from places like Toronto--a mechanic in the bike shop in the small village where we stayed remarked that "cycling is the new golf." I thought he meant that the popularity curves of the two pastimes were crossing, with cycling ascendant; but maybe his subtext was the golfers' use of powered carts.
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John, it seems e-bikes appeal to 'Merkins who would otherwise never consider a bicycle in adulthood. Who knows? Perhaps the e-bike will trigger a revival in bicycle popularity in North America. I can just picture fleets of assisted bikes scooting along with ease as I work hard to keep up. I have to admit a number of dowagers in their mid-80s on e-bikes passed my loaded touring bike with ease in Austria. One of them directed a little good-natured teasing my way saying, "You can do better!" "<pant, pant, wheeeeeeeze> Try'n'!" was the best I could manage in reply at 29kph.
There doesn't appear to be much cause for immediate alarm for those of us heavily invested in a dynohub; our present systems should stick around for awhile longer.
I sieved the Interwebs with my data scrapers and found SON had developed their 12v hub as a prototype in 2001, now 14 years ago.
Despite the change in regulations, it hasn't made it to market yet. They're just ready a long ways ahead of time. Foresighted, those folks at SON: http://www.velovision.com/showStory.php?storynum=56 The StVZO/TA revision (§67) that allows for 12v/6.2w output would apportion the juice so a headlight would use 5 watts, the taillight 1.2 watts.
And indeed, running two incandescent lights wired in series will cause the dynohub to dig a little deeper in response, producing double the output if you ride fast enough. An old randonneur/Audax trick, the second lamp is switched off for good lighting at low speeds. You can find Schmidt's [translated] take on this here: http://www.baldurdash.org/OtherStuff/www.nabendynamo.de/12vinfo.htm
Of course, two LED headlights can also be operated by a dynohub, but wired in parallel.
The StVZO/TA revision (§67) that allows for 12v/6.2w output would apportion the juice so a headlight would use 5 watts, the taillight 1.2 watts.
Best,
Dan.
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Maybe the goal is to build a dynohub and an e-bike motor that are more than 100 percent efficient, then after you accelerate up to speed you could simply use perpetual motion to get you to your destination.
I can see those long distance off road high power driving lights getting mounted on randonneuring bikes.
I hope that everyone understands that my statements above are intended to be humor.
If the new hubs had a built in rectifier and a capacitor to smooth out the voltage, you just need a lighter socket on your handlebar to insert your 12v to USB adapter into.
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;D Never hurts to dream, mickeg!
All the best,
Dan. (...who admits the perpetual motion thing crossed his mind)
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fleets of assisted bikes scooting along with ease as I work hard to keep up...
Lots of similar straws in the wind on my Amsterdam-Vienna ride a couple of years ago. We could make up a cycling jersey for the diminishing band with "Ich bin ein Bittereinder" or some such on it, to be used for as long as we can :-)
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I don't know why this 12V business has suddenly blown up. But none of it is new, or important.
Schmitt has had a 12V hub dynamo on the books for almost 15 years. Busch und Muller have had a 12V rim dynamo, complete with matching lamps, all of it good stuff, actually on the market since the last century. The reason Schmitt hasn't launched the 12V SON they have ready-designed is that they are so closely allied to BUMM that they are in a perfect position to know how well, or how badly, the BUMM 12v dynamo and lamps sold, in short because they know there is no market for 12V bicycle gear. Schmitt is too small to create a market and, anyway, BUMM, which is in a better position to create a market, and has on several occasions, has already failed.
It would be a careless management the size of Schmitt, even with their shining reputation, who with this history launches a 12V hub dynamo except at a very, very stiff premium to account for permanent low sales and thus small unit production to carry marketing, promotion, ancillary development (Schmitt would probably want their own lamp to go with it), service, laying in spares.
As for the 12V dynamo being intended for pedelecs or ebikes in general, to charge up what? Charging from bike dynamos has been one of the most unsatisfactory of all the broken promises of technology in cycling; it is not too strong to say it is an expensive joke. There is no charger operating off a hub dynamo that will recharge an iPad satisfactorily, period. It is logical to conclude that much larger pedelec and ebike batteries can't be charged by somebody pedaling along at some miniscule output, and I should imagine lipos will be wrecked in short order by fluctuating voltages.
In any event, most ebike batteries now have one or more USB outputs. And batteries get smaller and lighter for capacity every day, and more capable with every iteration: I don't even know how far my apparently small 8.8Ah battery will carry me because I've never run it further than 40km on one day. I don't even have a dynamo on my bike: I run BUMM's 36V IQ lighting (same optics as the Cyo) at the front and Linetech at the back; these lamps don't draw enough power to make any perceptible difference to the endurance of the battery.
There are a bunch of reasons why a 12V hub dynamo might have been desireable, and they're all to do with lamps, not recharging anything, and note the past tense of my statement. There was a time when 12V lamps would have given more light on the road in front of bicycles. That just isn't true since the rise and rise of the LEDs. The 12V dynamo has been too late now for 12 or 15 years, or possibly longer (after all, the good BUMM 12V tyre dynamo didn't sell either).
A 12V hub dynamo is a solution in search of a problem that has a good few years since passed it by.
Or, to put it another way, if Shimano were to launch a 12V hub dynamo, I'd still wait and see. Even Shimano has been know make mistakes.
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Charging from bike dynamos has been one of the most unsatisfactory of all the broken promises of technology in cycling; it is not too strong to say it is an expensive joke. There is no charger operating off a hub dynamo that will recharge an iPad satisfactorily, period.
Andre,
I've had great success using a hub dynamo to charge my on-tour gadgets, and found it far from an expensive joke. It has in fact been both a convenience and a necessity for me, as it has resulted in being able to keep my gadgets charged for an extended period when away from mains power. By matching device demands to available power, my experience with bike-powered charging has been consistent, reliable, and trouble-free.
With my on-bike charging systems and a suitable buffer battery, I can and do power and/or charge...
• AA and AAA batteries to power my LED headlamps, weather radio, GPS, a small electric toothbrush intended for travelers, and the batteries for my folding keyboard.
• My GPS directly, thus preventing drain of the AA cells that power it and allowing me to track my progress over some 16+ hours of daily travel.
• My electric shaver.
• The accumulator batteries on my solar panels if there is rain or insufficient sunshine for solar charging.
• My buffer battery when it is not being used as a buffer and -- depending on load -- sometimes simultaneously. The buffer battery overcomes the problem of interrupted power or charging during stops or periods of low speed.
• My smartphone, which serves as telephone, email, SMS messager, web browser, electronic journal, e-book reader, backup GPS and compass, map source, Skype communicator, ftp uploader, video and still digital cameras, word processor, photo/video editor, and more. In turn, my bicycle-charged smartphone can and does power a solid state drive, a multi-Terrabyte hard drive, and a portable DVD player/burner.
I doubled my bicycle charging ability by equipping a trailer with a dynohub and charging system of its own. It will even charge overnight while I sleep if I invert the trailer and clip vanes to the spokes to catch the desert night winds and so spin the wheel to generate electricity as if I were riding.
Being able to do all this when away from mains charging power for an extended period has been a huge advance for my touring convenience and safety in remote areas, and something I have found I can can count on. It has saved me kilos in spare batteries that no longer have to be carried.
Bicycle charging systems are expensive, but I really hope people won't dismiss the idea of bicycle charging as impractical or a joke. I continue to recover part of my costs by using replaceable rechargeable batteries instead of disposables or embedded rechargeables that require the entire device be replaced when the battery will no longer accept a charge. I use my charging systems successfully every day I ride, easily and with no real fuss or bother. Once set up for my needs, the systems I have simply work so long as I continue to ride. I do also use solar power and accumulators to augment my power generation for days when I am immobile or slow and at night, but the bike systems work fine. It is terrific that a number of suitable dynamos and charging systems are now readily available to make this possible for anyone, so long as device demands are matched to the power available.
My success has been the result of carefully matching my gadgets to the available power source. An iPad won't charge directly, but I knew this and chose another device instead (my smartphone, which has proven to meet my needs fully). An iPad can be indirectly charged in part and its power extended through my buffer battery, which is bicycle-charged. There are other ways to charge or power an iPad indirectly by bicycle dynamo and charging system.
As for pedelecs/e-bikes using dynamos, I saw a number of them so equipped in Austria last summer. Powering lights and chargers with a dynohub minimizes parasitic drain on the battery for those actually *touring* with pedelecs/e-bikes, allowing more of the battery to be used for propulsion and longer range between charges. When I stopped and talked with several of the users, they were very clear it was common practice for touring longer distances with electric-assist and needing to maximize the battery's charge for propulsion to ensure they made it to the night's lodging for example, something very uncommonly employed when commuting. High drain devices were powered by the dynohub instead of running the battery down more quickly. Apparently, less energy was lost to increased drag than would be lost by powering gadgets directly. They said it didn't make a huge difference in battery live but made enough to be useful.
I have to politely disagree about the usefulness of dynohubs with higher output. Because the output is load-dependent, 6v systems commonly deliver increased output under increased load. One example is running two incandescent light sources in series, as long used in randonneuring; I've done so myself with great success for many long nighttime runs before LED lighting came on the scene. The cost comes in the form of higher resistance at higher speeds.
All the best,
Dan.
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Dan, that is a very long list of electrical devices. What wind speed do you need to get a meaningful amount of amperage out of it when in the campsite?
My last tour was without my dynohub, thus I had to carry a lot more batteries than I usually prefer. I had:
- Camera, 5 Li Ion batteries for it.
- 7 inch phablet, no SIM card in it, thus only used where I had wifi or when I wanted to look at maps I had previously downloaded.
- vintage flip phone which usually was out of range, thus usually off, no spare battery, never bothered to charge it.
- GPS, vintage back and white Garmin Vista, tiny black and white screen that stays on, minimal memory for maps, uses two AA batteries.
- GPS, newer Garmin 62S with several different maps in memory, usually off because this GPS burns batteries faster with screen on than the older GPS but this one does routing so handy to have, uses two AA batteries.
- Bike headlight, never used but if I did it used three AAA batteries.
- Headlamp (for my head, not bike), three AAA batteries, never needed to recharge them after a month of use.
- Tail lights on bike (two), two AAA batteries in each light, changed them about once a week, usually used light one but sometimes had both turned on if dark overcast.
- Charger for my AA and AAA batteries.
- USB charger.
- Li Ion battery charger.
- 3 into 1 outlet adapter.
I wish I had my dynohub along, but I used a 700c bike and my hub is on a 26 inch wheel. Thus, I had to keep looking for outlets near empty seats in restaurants, places to charge at campgrounds, etc. The weight of all my spare batteries and chargers was quite a hassle that I would have preferred to leave at home, would have been much better to have a dynohub along.
I did not plan on being in any campsites long enough during bright sunlight hours to make it worth it to bring a solar panel, in retrospect I made the right decision to leave it home.
My phablet is not one of the high amperage devices like Ipads, it charges at low amperage, my hub would charge it just fine.
Photo shows a charger for my AA and AAA batteries, USB charger for my phablet (phablet not in photo, only charger is), charger for the camera Li Ion batteries, this was all plugged into an outlet at an RV campsite near the hiker biker site I was in, my site did not have any way to charge batteries. A very important piece of equipment on this trip was a three into one outlet adapter, allowing me to plug more things into an outlet.