Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: freddered on January 15, 2007, 09:47:27 pm
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What is the best chain to get as a replacement on my Raven Tour?
Are there single-speed chains that are stronger because they do not need to flex laterally over derailleur sprockets?
What would you fit and why?
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I got very good life out of the standard SRAM 8 speed chain, over 12,000 miles. I've now replaced it with a Connex Intrax 7Z1, designed for single speed and hub gears, with a good anti rust coating and cheap at £11. A bit early to give an opinion, certainly looks tough!
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PH did you get any rust on the SRAM before the 12,000 mark? I am using a SRAM 68 (with 4000 miles on it) which has started to corrode slightly. It get oiled regularly (1- 2 times a week) but round here it rains two days in three! The chain is fine other than the surface rust, not stiff at all.
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Is the SRAM 68 the one with both sets of plates shiny nickel plated? If so that’s the one I had on and also the ones I use on my best derailleur bike. I’ve never had rust on any of them and I’m not as good at keeping them clean and oiled as I maybe ought to be. My Raven came with a cheaper SRAM chain (PC48?) with black plates, it started rusting within a week so I replaced it with the better one. The surface rust was probably doing no harm, but you know how it is with a new bike[;)]
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Yep the 68 is the nickel plated one. It rains ALL the time here and the bike get used 6 days a week so maybe that’s why it has started to rust. I also cycle along the side of a salt mash every day! I am currently using Rohloff chain lube but I am thing of switching to purple extreme as it claims great thing in the prevention of corrosion. All that said I have never got a chain up to 4000+ miles before and I don't think I will be changing it any time soon!
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I was contemplating the KMC Z610HX chain recently. I did a bit of net searching and it seemed to get great reviews for single gear/hub use. It is nickel plated and has a 'no drop' design which apparently is more resistant to chain 'stretch' (wear).
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/kmc-z610hx-1-2-inch-x-3-32-inch-silver-chain-prod13478/
I called SJS Cycles to discuss this and was advised that the current recommended replacement was the KMC X1 Rohloff chain. It apparently is now being fitted as standard to all new Thorn Rohloff bikes and is the best replacement for the now discontinued Rohloff S-L-T 99. It is three times the price but I took the bait and ordered one. I was assured that it would easily last more than three times longer than the KMC Z610HX.
Will post my thoughts and observations here down the line as there remains quite a bit of life yet in the current chain (also a KMC nickel plated chain but not sure which one!)
When I first got the Raven Tour I cleaned up the original KMC Z51 (not nickel plated) and Purple Extreme seemed to do a good job keeping it rust free.
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I'm running a KMC X1 on my mountain bike. It seems to have survived the worst of a Peak District winter and spring with no appreciable wear. Having said that I try to keep it pretty well lubed.
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Thanks folks.
I have just bought a KMC X1 via eBay.
Saved over a fiver on SJS and they are throwing in x2 spate links.
Look forward to trying it out.
Matt
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Resurrecting an old thread here to prove that I have done a bit of a search before I start asking dumb questions..... ;D
Is the KMC X1 still the 'default' chain for Rohloff equipped bikes ??
Any 'Yorkshire versions' (cheaper) that I should consider ??...
Thank you....
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I buy the cheapest KMC chains I can find.
Note that they make two different widths of 8 speed chains, so if you get a spare quick link, you need to make sure you get the right one.
http://kmcchain.us/connectortype/8-speed-below-ml/
I am quick to change them, generally at 0.75 percent stretch, that way they do not wear the cog or chainring very much.
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In the opinion of some manufacturers with extensive test facilities that I know, the KMC Z8 gives the most kilometres per euro spent. Other manufacturers, like Thorn, think the KMC X1 is the best, period; I'm not aware of any forum member yet wearing one out, so we don't have a relative miles per pound number. My own opinion is that the X1 commands such a premium that the X8 or Z8 will prove to be much cheaper when we can compare miles per pound.
I've had the KMC Z8 and it is first class; in one bound I multiplied my mileage by between two and three times over the inexpensive Shimano chains I used before. The problem is that most mailorder merchants sell so few of the Z8 that they don't get much of a discount to pass on. Compare the price of the derailleur equivalent KMC X8, of which almost every dealer sells a ton, and therefore gets a huge discount which he can pass on to customers. So I buy the X8 on sale and put them by.
I'm impressed by the X8 but I am, and have always been, very heavy on chains; if you're a spinner with a light touch it is possible something cheaper from the KMC line may be slightly more economical for you. I have concluded that a derailleur chain, because of the flex required, is probably ipso facto a better chain than a single-speed chain of otherwise similar materials and construction.
There is an extreme experiment in running an X8 on the factory lube alone, no added lube, at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=6813.0 -- note that those mileages, which by themselves may not seem much chop, are between two and three times further than anything I ever achieved before on other chains.
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Gents...Many thanks for your replies.
FWIW I am inclined to agree that I don't need to splash out on the KMC X1....this is my first Rohloff build (my first build of anything to be honest) and I just wondered if I was missing something.
Thank you... :)
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SRAM 8-spd chains work fine as well, also inexpensive.
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I've been using KMC e1 EPT chains on my singlespeed bike and now on the Rohloff. Chain is fine, except for it's durability - it elongates to 0.75 after around 1500-2000km only. So recently I came across this chain - Wipperman Connex 7E8:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/chains/wippermann-7e8-332-inch-chain-136-links/
(https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/49359.jpg)
It looks like a real monster in the 3/32 world. Anyone have any experience with this chain on a Rohloff?
P.S. I don't use a chain tensioner nor a chainglider, so so width of the chain is not an issue for me.
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This is supposed to be very durable:
https://www.kmcchain.eu/10000km
But I haven't tried it, as most of the family bikes have Chaingliders, which seem to significantly extend the service life of ordinary chains.
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That's a wide 1/8" chain, I don't think it's a good idea to use it with narrow Rohloww sprockets.
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That's a wide 1/8" chain, I don't think it's a good idea to use it with narrow Rohloww sprockets.
The range of choices of wide sprockets and chainrings might also be limited compared with the narrow ‘Rohloff’ ones??
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I've been using KMC e1 EPT chains on my singlespeed bike and now on the Rohloff. Chain is fine, except for it's durability - it elongates to 0.75 after around 1500-2000km only.
Best way to make your chain last longer on a Rohloff is to stop measuring it ;)
I have three of the non EPT versions of that chain in use, 3,000, 5,000 and 9,000 km, I have no intention of changing them anytime soon. I understand the principle of changing the chain to prolong the life of other components, but on a SS/IGH it doesn't make economic sense for two reasons. First, the shifting doesn't deteriorate and second you're likely to spend more on chains than save on components. I haven't had a chain let me down yet, I've had a few "stretch" so far as to need a link removed and I've worn a few sprockets/chainrings out. I've yet to reach 15,000 miles on a chain, but sometimes I've changed close to that as a precaution. This is the advice in one of the Thorn brochures, possibly "Living with a Rohloff", wear all three out together and it'll be trouble free.
That Wippermann does look the business, if I hadn't stocked up on the E1's (I bought 4 when they were on offer and that might be a lifetimes worth) I'd be tempted to give it a try. Please do report back if you do.
I don't have any 1/8th experience, but I know it's possible to run them on a Rohloff, with the right chain and sprocket.
There's also the theory I read on the Sheldon Brown website, that running an even number of teeth and keeping the chain in the correct phase, stops the chain from wearing the chainring/sprocket. I haven't tried it.
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That's a wide 1/8" chain, I don't think it's a good idea to use it with narrow Rohloww sprockets.
The range of choices of wide sprockets and chainrings might also be limited compared with the narrow ‘Rohloff’ ones??
Not much choice in KMC wide chainrings, only 38T and 42T in BCD 104 4 bolt. But a good range of wide sprockets, 15T to 21T in 1T increments.
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There's also the theory I read on the Sheldon Brown website, that running an even number of teeth and keeping the chain in the correct phase, stops the chain from wearing the chainring/sprocket. I haven't tried it.
It's not a theory, it's high school level physics. You have 3 parameters: chainring teeth no., sprocket teeth no., chain links no. Based on these parameters you can evaluate how effectively the same link of the chain will make contact with each sprocket/chainring tooth. Worst case: every crank rotaton the same chain link contacts the exact same chainring/sprocket tooth.
Best case is to use chainring and sprocket with prime-numbered teeth. Such as: 43/19, 37/17 and so on.
Here is a GOLDEN resource to wrap your head around this concept:
https://www.blocklayer.com/chain-sprocket.aspx
Enter small teeth (sprocket), large teeth (chainring), chain length in links and hit calculate. Scroll down a tad and it will show you the % of optimal wear rate on your chainring and sprocket teeth. There is also a visualization tool where you can put a mark on your chainring/sprocket teeth and see it in motion.
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There's also the theory I read on the Sheldon Brown website, that running an even number of teeth and keeping the chain in the correct phase, stops the chain from wearing the chainring/sprocket. I haven't tried it.
It's not a theory, it's high school level physics. You have 3 parameters: chainring teeth no., sprocket teeth no., chain links no. Based on these parameters you can evaluate how effectively the same link of the chain will make contact with each sprocket/chainring tooth. Worst case: every crank rotaton the same chain link contacts the exact same chainring/sprocket tooth.
Best case is to use chainring and sprocket with prime-numbered teeth. Such as: 43/19, 37/17 and so on.
Here is a GOLDEN resource to wrap your head around this concept:
https://www.blocklayer.com/chain-sprocket.aspx
Enter small teeth (sprocket), large teeth (chainring), chain length in links and hit calculate. Scroll down a tad and it will show you the % of optimal wear rate on your chainring and sprocket teeth. There is also a visualization tool where you can put a mark on your chainring/sprocket teeth and see it in motion.
Looks like you've mixed up two theories, but thanks for the basic physics lesson. Sheldon's theory only works with even numbers and the ratio is irrelevant. One claims to even out wear, the other to eliminate it from alternate teeth. The science is simple enough, which method would better improve your chain life is theoretical till you've put it into practice.
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It's not a theory, it's high school level physics. You have 3 parameters: chainring teeth no., sprocket teeth no., chain links no. Based on these parameters you can evaluate how effectively the same link of the chain will make contact with each sprocket/chainring tooth. Worst case: every crank rotaton the same chain link contacts the exact same chainring/sprocket tooth.
Best case is to use chainring and sprocket with prime-numbered teeth. Such as: 43/19, 37/17 and so on.
Here is a GOLDEN resource to wrap your head around this concept:
https://www.blocklayer.com/chain-sprocket.aspx
That's interesting stuff - I really do wish that I had taken more notice when I was at skool.
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I've been using KMC e1 EPT chains on my singlespeed bike and now on the Rohloff. Chain is fine, except for it's durability - it elongates to 0.75 after around 1500-2000km only. So recently I came across this chain - Wipperman Connex 7E8:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/chains/wippermann-7e8-332-inch-chain-136-links/
It looks like a real monster in the 3/32 world. Anyone have any experience with this chain on a Rohloff?
P.S. I don't use a chain tensioner nor a chainglider, so so width of the chain is not an issue for me.
From German bike forums I got converted to Wippermann Connex chains a while back when riding derailleur bikes. I was getting frustrated with Shimano chain wear and wanted something similar priced that lasted a tad longer. The 808 chain was highly rated- for rust protection, longevity and probably the easiest quick link of all of them which you can remove in seconds without tools but that is strong enough to stand the rigors of derailleur chain stress without breaking. I was able to get 5000-6000 km minimum on MTB and trekking bikes I have which was at least 10-15% more than the Shimano chains I'd previously used. I think I even pushed one chain to 8000km. But remember that derailleur chains wear differently to IGH or fixies due to different stresses from drive to hub angles constantly changing plus various stages of wear on the front and rear cogs.
When I purchased my Rohloff powered Winora Labrador 2nd hand, it needed a new chain and I was pleased to hear the German bike forums praised the 808 as a great chain on the Rohloff too usually available at a better price point than those chains exclusively for single speed or IGHubs (probably due to economies of scale and being one of their best selling chains). The forum also advised that although IGH don't need the strengthened chains designed to cope with derailleurs, nor the sculpting of the plates to allow for smoother chaining up/down on chainrings/cassette, we are not disadvantaged by using them on our IGH bikes either.
I'm riding with a Truvativ chainring and a 16 tooth sprocket on my Rohloff and on which I am approaching 7000km with an 808 chain. No chain skip and no problems to date. Everything rosie and no regrets using an 808 chain.
The first 5000km were without decent chain weather/elements protection, and I was using the incredible Connex quicklink regularly to remove and wax and reinstall the chain after I was getting frustrated with oil mess and accumulated grime on my trouser legs. Bike gurus generally agree that a dirty chain wears out way faster with the accumulated crud picked up than a clean chain. I'm convinced that hot waxing my chain may have prevented some wear an oiled chain would have picked up- But at 5000km I installed a Chainglider and when the last waxing wore off I decided to oil the chain again as the Chainglider keeps most of the dirt away from the chain- and unlike wax, if kept clean, the oil should hold longer if protected from the elements.
I'd definitely recommend the Connex branded chains. But as the 7 series chain you mentioned doesn't seem to have the brilliant Connex quick link, I'd recommend the 8 series chain. There is an 8SE and 8SX chain which might prove longer life. But I don't have any experience of those models. But if the 808 is a great long life chain (which my personal experience confirms) then the 8SE and 8SX ought to be a tad longer lived if the website is to be believed. And they both come with the great Connex quick link too which is great if you want/need to remove the chain for any reason.
https://www.connexchain.com/en/8-speed-chains.html (https://www.connexchain.com/en/8-speed-chains.html)
Andre Jute has mentioned (more than once in this forum) that with a chain glider you should be able to get at least 5000km out of a chain using the factory lube only when a Chainglider is used. Keeping whatever chain you use clean without needing to maintain it (oiling/cleaning regularly) should allow for better chain life as well as giving you more time on the saddle rather than near the saddle spent oiling/waxing/greasing. And a combination of good quality chain and a Chainglider ought to be a marriage made in heaven.
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Thank you for your detailed reply, Steve. I will definitely check the 808 chain, I've also heard many good reports on it that back up your findings.
My complaints with KMC e1 EPT stretch/elongation are based on my previous singlespeed experience, not on the Rohloff. I suspect that the torque I was giving it with singlespeed (each ride - numerous climbs on sandy terrain, mashing on the pedals while standing with my 95kg weight, trying to rotate those 29"x2.6" tractor wheels) was much higher than usual torque on derailleur or IGH system.
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There are of course Rohloff's fabled A99 chain which can often be found unused boxed but 2nd hand on German Ebay (often around EUR100) . But for with the price of a brand new Connex 808 under EUR 15 online- I cannot convince myself the A99 is going to be 8x (or more) better...
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Thanks for this, Steve. I see that starbike sells both the 808 & 708, so that's helpful for future orders.
Never heard of the A99, I must confess. At €100 a pop though, I can only imagine that it comes wrapped in cachet. ;)
Cheers, John
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Never heard of the A99, I must confess. At €100 a pop though, I can only imagine that it comes wrapped in cachet. ;)
Cheers, John
In case there's any confusion - The Rohloff A99 chain isn't intended for a Rohloff hub. Although Rohloff Hub are two words that seem to belong together, Rohloff were well respected chain manufactures before the existence of their hub, often for others including at one time the higher end Campagnolo chains. Given that, I've always thought it odd that they haven't produced a chain to match the hub, or maybe they have and I've missed it. Do they still make any chains?
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Rohloff did make a chain for use with the hub, sadly no longer made or available as far as i know.
I am still running one inside my ChainGlider.
Long may it live…
Julian.
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Herr Rohloff was the maker of chains by appointment to the mud-racing brigade. On his honeymoon, so the story goes, his and his bride's derailleur bikes were wrecked by the sand and salt water at the beach, so he designed the Rohloff Speed 14 enclosed hub gear box, for the same market. It was by the accident of being chosen by the prestigious but very peculiar and particular German baukast Utopia-velo ("The Rolls-Royce of German bicycles" -- it's true; I have one) for their touring bikes, and then by the iconic Thorn tourers, and later by makers of upmarket Dutch stadssportief types, that Rohloff became the reference standard for touring gearboxes.
There are/were also some fine cyclists' tools called Caliber and Revolver but they basically became irrelevant if you bought a Rohloff chain...
How many miles has your Rohloff chain done, Julian?
I suspect that Herr Rohloff had thoroughly worked himself out of the chain market my making a chain that lasts forever.
We should be grateful for this history. If Bernd Rohloff started out to design a touring gearbox, it could have been much lighter and less resistant to the hard life that the "honeymoon" Rohloff shrugs off in long-distance touring. It is probably significant that every time we've heard of a "lightweight" or a "sports" Rohloff, the idea has just died quietly: I guess they discovered it wouldn't last as long as the tougher if heavier big Rohloff, the Speed 14, and would interfere with its enviable reputation for indestructibility.
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Some relevant links for those interested in Rohloff's chain production and the reasons why they no longer produce some of their older product line of chains:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/rohloff-cease-production-of-eight-and-nine-speed-chains/
https://www.rohloff.de/en/company/rohloff-ag
https://www.rohloff.de/en/company/rohloff-ag/s-l-t-99
Basically, the original "Green Monster" chain-making machine needed an overhaul of its bespoke parts and Rohloff used this downtime as an opportunity to reassess the market and decided not top pursue the market for ever-narrower derailleur chains out of concerns about durability.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks for this, Steve. I see that starbike sells both the 808 & 708, so that's helpful for future orders.
Never heard of the A99, I must confess. At €100 a pop though, I can only imagine that it comes wrapped in cachet. ;)
Cheers, John
Sorry, I crossed my photography hobby with biking hobby to invent new chain. The correct chain was the Rohloff SLT 99 muddled in my mind by my similarly named camera -Sony SLT A99. ;)
Both great in their own environments, but neither a replacement for the other. As long as I remember NOT to grease my lenses or to put filters on my chains then the world will still be in order.
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In a similar vein I was once told not to combine geology with rock climbing.
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Part of my brain thought that the A99 was a twisty highway in Foggie Olde beloved by motorcyclists.
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How many miles has your Rohloff chain done, Julian?
Andre,
Not enough, sadly I have not done much touring for some years now, although the mind would like to.
Bought 2010ish, but not used until later - probably about 5k to date, hardly run in yet.
I have a slightly longer used one in storage which was used with a 43x21 setup, might leave that one to a child in due course.
The ChainGlider stopped me using that particular combination.
Julian.
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How many miles has your Rohloff chain done, Julian?
Bought 2010ish, but not used until later - probably about 5k to date, hardly run in yet.
I have a slightly longer used one in storage which was used with a 43x21 setup, might leave that one to a child in due course.
The ChainGlider stopped me using that particular combination.
I'm such a masher with such a depressing chain history until about a dozen years ago when I determined to take a serious run at the subject, that when I first approached 5k on a chain, I opened champagne...
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Some relevant links for those interested in Rohloff's chain production and the reasons why they no longer produce some of their older product line of chains:
https://www.bikeradar.com/news/rohloff-cease-production-of-eight-and-nine-speed-chains/
https://www.rohloff.de/en/company/rohloff-ag
https://www.rohloff.de/en/company/rohloff-ag/s-l-t-99
Basically, the original "Green Monster" chain-making machine needed an overhaul of its bespoke parts and Rohloff used this downtime as an opportunity to reassess the market and decided not top pursue the market for ever-narrower derailleur chains out of concerns about durability.
Best,
Dan.
Thanks for those Dan, I'd seen the stuff on the Rohloff website but not the Bikeradar article. I note Rohloff were saying they're repurposing their chain machine to produce single speed chains, to be launched in 2011. What happened to that? Did it ever get produced (Might this be the chain julk has? Though the dates don't match) or was the plan shelved? Or was it a short lived product? Or were they maybe produced for another brand?
It's just curiosity, there's plenty of choice. Still seems a little odd to me that a renowned chain maker isn't producing the best chain for their other product. Maybe it's an indication that the chain in a simple system doesn't need to be that special.